Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 July 11

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July 11

Persian help and Arabic help: Titles of HISD documents

What is the Persian title of the following document? http://web.archive.org/web/20120329033744/http://www.houstonisd.org/Multilingual/Home/Parent%20Resources/Parent%20Guidebooks/ParentGuideFarsi.pdf

What is the Arabic title of the following? http://web.archive.org/web/20120229144332/http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

For your first link, I found wikt:دفتر (notebook, office) and wikt:چه (because, what?) and wikt:رانندگی (driving) and wikt:أشياء (things, objects) and wikt:دانش (knowledge) and wikt:امتحان (examination) and wikt:زبان (tongue, language) and wikt:انگلیسی (English).

—Wavelength (talk) 00:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC) and 00:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The Persian title is "دفترچه راهنمای اولیاء دانش‌آموزان زبان انگلیسی" meaning "A Manual for English Learners' Parents". The Arabic title is "مرحبآ بکم فی ادارة هیوستون التعلیمیة المستقلة" and the second line "کیف یمکننا مساعدتکم؟". ‍‍‍‍Omidinist (talk) 03:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much! One thing I forgot: What is the Persian title of http://web.archive.org/web/20120229144332/http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConnectEnglish/Images/PDF/howmaywehelpyou.pdf ? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. It is "به مدارس مستقل منطقه‌ای هیوستون خوش آمدید. چه کمکی‌ میتوانیم به شما بکنیم؟". Omidinist (talk) 04:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again :) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Translating Japanese

I'm lost in translation. So, is it correct to translate "日本大好きセリーヌはトークが冴えてましたね" as "not only loving Japan, Celine also has good knowledge about it"? Thanks a million. Arigatō gozaimasu.--124.122.107.154 (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Celine loves Japan and her talk was fabulous. Oda Mari (talk) 10:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Could it be translated as "Celine loves Japan as well as talking", "Celine loves Japan and is skillful in/good at/keen on talking", or something like that? Thank you once again. --124.120.111.229 (talk) 10:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs)

??? Has Baseball Bugs relocated to Thailand? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see what's going on. The OP removed the whole thread after it had been answered, and BB restored it so it can be archived. Odd that Sine Bot is attributing the post by Thailand-based IP 124.120.111.229 to BB, though. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

You're pretty much onto it. The OP had rubbed out the section after he got his question answered, and I undid it since I thought it should go into the archive when the time comes. And because I have autosign turned on, for those occasions when I forget to sign, the bot program tacked my name onto that undo. Strange, but robotically correct, I guess. P.S. I have never, to my knowledge, been to Thailand. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it couldn't. It could be...."Celine's talk was wonderful as she loved (knew) Japan", but I cannot translate it correctly without the context. Oda Mari (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

a Latin neologism please

Hi - I need a Latin term that approximately means 'those who write on cockroaches'; it can be a binomial species type of name, or a single compound word - up to you.

Gratias tibi ago!

Adambrowne666 (talk) 10:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Blattographers (from Latin blatta, "cockroach")? Are you referring to people who write about roaches or people who inscribe writings on roaches? Deor (talk) 10:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Deor - it's the latter - or else it could be people who write with cockroaches (as opposed to writing with pens). Adambrowne666 (talk) 11:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

inblattiscriptores, "those who write on cockroaches". singular: inblattiscriptor (not real Latin words).--Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 17:41, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Normally the prefix in- assimilates to the following consonant, so I would expect 'imblattiscriptor'. However, I don't think the prefix in- can have this meaning. It can mean 'to the interior' with verbs of motion, but usually it means 'not'. I think 'blattiscriptor' is the best you'll get, though that is vague about whether the writing is on cockroaches, about cockroaches or even formed out of cockroaches. --ColinFine (talk) 18:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Quite right about the usual assimilation, sorry. But the in- can have the prepositional meaning in nouns at times (e.g., incunabula), and is not always the negation. Rethinking, I believe inscriptor (one who inscribes) is actually attested (and an obvious construction anyway), so maybe "blattinscriptores" would be better. Anyway, again, not real words. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 20:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right. blattinscriptores is best. --ColinFine (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks heaps, everyone! So when you say 'not real words' - are you referring to this neologism, or that you're using faux Latin in the making of the neologism? Adambrowne666 (talk) 22:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I am saying that just to mean that it is a neologism for a (more or less) dead language, yes; i.e., that the words do not occur within the corpus of Latin literature. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 23:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. One more thing - I know I'm pushing it - but can anyone here speak ancient greek? Is it possible to make the equivalent neologism in Greek? Feel free to tell me to get stuffed in your language of choice. Adambrowne666 (talk) 23:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

ἑπισιλφογράφοι episilphographoi, singular: ἑπισιλφογράφος episilphographos; you might Anglicize the plural episilphographers. Sounds kind of nice. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 01:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It does! I love words with the oi suffix. Adambrowne666 (talk) 01:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

That must explain why you feel at home among hoi polloi here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice one, Jack.Adambrowne666 (talk) 02:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Word etymology

Etymologically speaking, is there any relationship between the word Russia (or Russian) and the word red (which is rus or russo or something similar, I believe, in some foreign languages)? If so, what's the connection between the people (and/or the nation) and the color red? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

No, see http://www.etymonline.com/ for all your shopping needs. Red comes from a proper PIE root, *reudh, which leads to rufus and ruber in Latin and erythros in Greek. Russian comes from a Finnic word Ruotsi which meant Swede and referred to the Viking ruling class that founded Kievan Rus. μηδείς (talk) 18:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Why do you say "no"? That link that you gave me says: "The word Russian ... [is] perhaps related to the IE root for red, in reference to hair color". (What does "IE" mean?) Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

"IE" stands for "Indo-European", the reconstructed common source of most European languages. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, etymonline.com does speculate that the old name of the "Rus'" Scandinavian settlers in Russia might be "perhaps related to the IE root for "red," in reference to hair color", but no further hints as to who proposed such an idea or how common it is. Certainly sounds dubious to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

You might also want to check wikt:Ruotsi. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I did see the speculation of the word coming from red, but -dh- from *rheudh in Russian would standardly develop into a /d/. There's no way to explain the ess that way except for borrowing. Meanwhile, ruotsi is the consensus view. μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

FWIW in Czech (and presumably some other Slavic languages, mutatis mutandis), there is an adjective rusý “red-haired”. This is distinct from rudý “red”, which is the straightforward reflex of *reudh.—Emil J. 16:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, [1] gives quite a few reflexes of *reudh that include an -s- element, such as English rust. [2] explains that as coming from *reudh-s-to-.—Emil J. 16:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oxford ED says in the entry for Russ: "Old Russian Rus′ is usually taken to be < a stem ultimately of early Scandinavian origin + Old Russian -′ , suffix forming collective nouns" [...] "compare Old Swedish roþer rowing, roþrin, roþin ‘administrative subdivision in coastal Eastern Sweden’, and the first element in Old Swedish rodskarl (Swedish roskarl) inhabitant of Roslagen, all < the same Germanic base as row v.¹; perhaps via a Finnic language, compare Finnish Ruotsi Sweden, Ruotsalainen Swede." And from the entry for row v.¹, ultimately: "< the same Indo-European base as Mycenaean Greek e-re-e, Early Irish ráid, Lithuanian irti, all in sense ‘to row’". I suspect Douglas Harper slightly misread the Russ entry. See *erə- (1), *ere-, *er-, *rē- (3) at [3] for Gerhard Köbler's take on the "Indo-European base" just mentioned. If you want more information, please buy [4], mail it to me, and then I'll oh-so-graciously interpret it for you. -Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 03:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

This is exactly the etymology that Neil Oliver gave in episode two of Vikings (TV documentary series) when he talked about the Vikings exploring the part of the world that is now Russia. Richard Avery (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Related question

Thanks to all for the above input. OK, then, as a follow-up question ... why are Russians sometimes referred to as red or reds? And is that considered pejorative or no? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe this has to do with red being part of Communist symbolism, and that for much of the 20th century many Russians formed a powerful group of Communists. See definition 3: [5] --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Many post-revolutionary Russian emigrants made sure they always referred to themselves as White Russians, precisely to avoid being tarred with the same red brush. Some of these were from the area of Byelorussia, which means "White Russia" (now Belarus), but most were from Russia proper. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

The Dude liked White Russians. There's a great scene where he can't find any milk or cream, so he uses non-dairy creamer. --Trovatore (talk) 22:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

That must have been where he entered his World of Pain. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Jack, Belarus/Bylorussia and anti-communist "White Russians" have nothing in common, it's just a curious coincidence. They have different origins as well as connotations. The latters are usually called not белые русские but simply белые. White colour here is a symbol of monarchy and aristocracy (like it was during the French Revolution). The term "White Russia" on the other hand has a long and dubious history, this has no clear etymology but it's well worth noticing that originally it was applied to Novgorod and Muscovy (most probably "white" meant "northern" here).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

We seem to be in furious agreement. As I said, most of the people who called themselves "White" Russians upon emigration had no connection to Byelorussia. I'm talking post-World War II here, when "Red" was considered a very dirty colour in the West. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

OK. Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 12:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Joseph, although the Western popular connection of red colour to all things Russian thanks mostly to communism, but red was also traditional and well-loved Russian colour before the Revolution. It seems the communists just explored this old tradition here like in China.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

take life by the hand

Would you please teach me the meaning of 'take life by the hand' in the following sentence. "By no willing of his own he has been compelled to take life by the hand and go down where there has been little save sorrow and degradation.--As a Realist Sees It, Theodore Dreiser"123.221.54.99 (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)dengen

That's an odd one. It needs more context. But it sounds like a strange variant on "taking the bull by the horns" or something like that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not clear without context, but the image it conjures for me is of giving reassurance to a timid person who needs to go somewhere they find frightening. by taking their the hand and walking with them. --ColinFine (talk) 00:12, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't sound that odd or unclear to me. As I interpret it, it means he took charge or control of his life. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:03, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Clarityfiend. A Google search for that exact phrase brings up 3,550,000 results, including several song lyrics and this blog. I also found "Come take life by the hand. Don't wait, time is short. The Communist party calls upon you to take the future in hand. La vie est a nous. Comrades, come with us." (Cinema engagé: film in the popular front). Alansplodge (talk) 12:28, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• The image it conjures for me is of somebody taking a small child by the hand and walking them through a dangerous area. Looie496 (talk) 15:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)