Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 July 30

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July 30

Pronunciation of Iphigenia

Among classicists and those in the know, what is the standard pronunciation? Our article gives /ɪfɨdʒɨˈnaɪ.ə/, though I would have supposed /ɪfɨdʒɨˈni.ə/ ÷seresin 08:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Jones' English Pronouncing Dictionary has "[ˈnaɪ.ə]" too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

My copy of Oxford BBC Guide to Pronunciation says /ˌɪfɪdʒɪˈnʌɪ.ə/ and my Longman Pronunciation Dictionary has /ˌaɪf ɪdʒ ɪ ˈnaɪ‿ə/ as primary, with /ˌɪf ɪdʒ ɪ ˈnaɪ‿ə/ and /ɪ ˌfɪdʒ ɪ ˈnaɪ‿ə/ as variants. Gabbe (talk) 16:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

And Oxford Dictionaries has /ˌɪfɪdʒɪˈnʌɪə/. There's also audio on the Merriam-Webster's entry. Gabbe (talk) 16:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• The original Greek is Ιφιγένεια, which would suggest -/ɛɪa/ as the pronunciation. The ει sequence can collaps to /i/. The only explanation for an /ai/ sound would be the name was used by acting tradition before and continuously through the great vowel shift. μηδείς (talk) 16:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

[1] for how Edith Hall pronounces it. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Irish-German translation

I have an Irish (Gaelic) blessing that I would like to express in German. I speak basically no Irish, but I can read and write some German. The blessing in English is:

May the road rise to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
the rain fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of his hand.

I have a translation into Irish from here as follows:

Go n-éirí an bóthar leat.
Go raibh an chóir ghaoithe i gcónaí leat.
Go dtaitní an ghrian go bog bláth ar do chlár éadain,
go gcuire an bháisteach go bog mín ar do ghoirt.
Agus go gcasfar le chéile sinn arís,
go gcoinní Dia i mbosa a láimhe thú.

I am aware that the English and Irish versions may not be direct translations of each other, but I believe that the sense is the same, and the poetic qualities are preserved. I would like to express this blessing in the same poetic way in German. Preferably, since the English and Irish may be different, I would like the Irish to be used as the 'master version' in the case of any discrepancy. However, if there are no Irish German speakers (or German Irish speakers) available, I will settle for a translation of the English. Thanks in advance for any assistance. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

PS: In case you need to know whether to use singular or plural, formal or informal, this is to be addressed to a group of teenagers as a farewell blessing between friends. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The difficult part, if you work from the English, is the metaphor in "rise to meet you", which I can't easily translate into German; but then again, as explained here [2], the English version doesn't seem to be a felicitous translation of the original Irish anyway. Working from the Irish in this case, but still trying to preserve a bit of the implicit metaphor of "rising", I'd go for:

Möge der Weg euch aufwärts führen,
Möge der Wind euch im Rücken sein,
Möge die Sonne euch warm ins Gesicht scheinen
Und der Regen sanft auf eure Felder fallen.
Und bis wir uns wiedersehen
Möge Gott euch auf seinen Händen tragen.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Here are a couple of other German versions: [3], [4]. Is there a standard one? Is it widely known in German? Rmhermen (talk) 12:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

At least one of them is apparently used as a Christian song [5]. Hadn't heard this one myself before; I was only familiar with a different setting of the English version, which I've also heard sung here in Germany. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

This is very widely known, and can usually be found in these little "feel-good" books; afaik, there is no officail version. As as sidenote: "Möge der Wind euch im Rücken sein" sounds, at least for me, a little bit off. I would go for something like:"Möge der Wind für Euch immer von hinten wehen", which is not lietral, but catches the meaning a little bit better, and at wikiquote I found: "Mögest du immer Rückenwind haben und stets Sonnenschein im Gesicht und mögen die Schicksalsstürme dich hinauftragen, auf dass du mit den Sternen tanzt"....Lectonar (talk) 13:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• Those doesn't read so poetically to me. Here's the sort of thing I would go for -- my memory of German grammar is shaky, apologies if I botch it.

Der Weg euch aufwärts führe,
Der Wind im Rücken sei,
Die Sonne warm ins Gesicht leuchte
Der Regen sanft auf eure Felder falle.
Und bis wir uns wiedersehen
Gott euch im Handfläche trage.

Looie496 (talk) 13:52, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Nah, sorry, not really. You could use those subjunctives ("der Weg führe..."), but the word order with the verb-final sentences is rather tortuous. It's true that such non-canonical word order options are occasionally used in poetry, but using them just for their own sake, as if they by themselves gave a more poetic feel to the text, doesn't really work that well. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

As pointed out in the link given above, "may the road rise to meet you" is a mistranslation, and there's no reason to perpetuate that mistranslation in the German. It just means "may the journey be successful for you" / "möge dir Der Weg gelingen". And although in English you can't tell if it's "you singular" or "you plural", in Irish you can tell, and it's "you singular", so the "euch"s and "euer"s should be "dich"s and "dein"s. A literal translation of the Irish into German, without the intervention of English, would be:

Möge dir der Weg gelingen.
Möge ein guter Wind immer bei dir sein.
Möge die Sonne sanft und schön auf deine Stirn scheinen.
Möge der Regen sanft und zart auf deine Felder fallen.
Und bis wir uns wiedersehen,
Möge dich Gott in seiner Handfläche halten.

I'll let someone else poeticize it. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

厉害 request for positive translation of phrase

Hi there,

I have a question about Chinese vocabulary that hopefully someone can help me with. Is there a positive meaning to the word 厉害? I was dining with a friend when I heard his father say of me: 他很 厉害. I had only heard of the term being used to mean difficult or terrible, but my associate suggested that he intended it as a compliment, along the lines of "powerful". Are there positive meanings to this term, or was he just sparing my feelings? Genuinely curious about the nuances of this word. All the best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.136.14.51 (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm more used to seeing the phrase written as "利害", but in both cases I agree that it can mean "powerful". My dictionary translates it rather well as "formidable". — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 14:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

When I was younger I used to think of it as a synonym for "smart". ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Could it be used as an adjective meaning "remarkable" or "fantastic"? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:26, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd suppose the tone matters. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

JackLee you are confusing two different words. "利害" literally means "benefits and harms", its usual meaning is "interest", in the sense of "conflict of interest". "他很利害" would be "he is very interest", as meaningless in Chinese as it is in English.

The identically pronounced "厉害" is the one that means "formidable, powerful, severe" etc. Of a person, it means the person is highly capable, which can have a positive or negative connotation depending on the context. Positively, it can mean a person is very good at something (basketball, woodworking, exam-taking, physics, languages), or is just high-achieving generally. Negatively, it can mean a person is cunning or calculating. Everything depends on the context. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this [6] online dictionary does list both "利害" and "厉害" with similar meanings ("terrible / formidable / serious / devastating / tough / capable / sharp / severe / fierce" for "利害", and "difficult to deal with / difficult to endure / ferocious / radical / serious / terrible / violent / tremendous / awesome" for "厉害". This [7] online dictionary also seems to include a meaning synonymous with "厉害" among the functions of "利害". Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Fut.Perf. I have struck the relevant part of my response. Your links and a bit of further research shows that while the view I expressed above (that the two are not synonymous) is often expressed and is reflected in some dictionaries, the use of "利害" to mean "厉害" is also recognised by other dictionaries, and (according to one such dictionary) has a long provenance in vernacular Chinese works dating back several centuries. It's still jarring to me, but it is clearly a common usage. For anyone who is interested and can read Chinese, this blog post makes an argument for why the two should not be synonymous. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

In my dictionary (a table one, not a sophisticated historical one), the entry "厉害" simply redirects me to "利害". The latter is given two definitions: "benefits and harms" and "formidable, powerful, etc.". — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 17:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

うわべ (Japanese)　

In a book that I am reading, which is a children's book for Japanese children that has quite a lot of furigana, the word 表面 has the furigana うわべ. Is this an error, or are they actually saying that 表面 should be read うわべ, or are they intentionally giving the reading of a synonym 上辺 (and if so, why)? 86.146.108.1 (talk) 19:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

表面 can mean any suface. うわべ is given here to specify the 'upper surface'. Alternate readings in furigana are common in Japan. Think of it like footnotes. You may even see furigana next to the katakana name of a foreign or fictional organization, with the furigana giving more meaning to what the organization is. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. What is the advantage of doing this versus simply writing 上辺? Also, everywhere else in this book, the furigana is (I'm fairly sure) just there to help children who may not know the kanji, and invariably, as far as I have noticed, it matches the actual pronunciation. Is this an odd intrusion of "adult-style" furigana, or is it still likely to have been done with young readers in mind? 86.146.108.1 (talk) 23:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't really say it was especially 'adult-like', nor is it written specifically with young readers in mind - it is quite simply common practice. I am sure you have read the Punning and double meaning section of our article on Furigana. There are some interesting examples there. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I understand the "Punning and double meaning" stuff, but here there seems no point. Why would you write 表面 with furigana うわべ instead of just writing 上辺? What added value is there? 86.160.208.176 (talk) 01:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

All I can say is the book is a very, very bad one, especially as it's a children's book. I personally hate that kind of furigana. It's rate to find a good P and D meaning furigana. I think most of them are cheap, tasteless and self-satisfaction of the author. Out of curiosity, I'd like to know the title, the author, and the publisher. Oda Mari (talk) 10:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

It's a translation of Peter Pan, translation by 厨川圭子, published by 岩波少年文庫. I don't think it's a bad book overall -- at least I hope it isn't. Since you think it's such bad style, I wonder if it is simply a typo. Lots of kanji in this book has (normal) furigana. It would be quite in keeping if this word also was supposed to have correct furigana but the typesetter just accidentally mixed up the words. 81.159.107.64 (talk) 11:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

It is extremely unlikely that it is a typo. In deference to Mari, I believe that the writer thinks that 表面 is much more likely to be understood than 上辺, considering the latter word in kanji form would be learned later in school than the former. As for cheap, tasteless, self-satisfaction for the author, one only has to go and 'tachi-yomi' in the convenience store to find lots of idiotic nonsense that people buy (mainly women - one book, about how to keep all of your husband's income until he retires and then divorce him, keeping half of his retirement money so he can die in poverty while you live on his hard-earned money, without doing a single day's work yourself, was a best seller!!! ). On the other hand, Manga, especially, has this style of writing in quite a big way. 日本へようこそ！KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry. It's a good book, but I'm puzzled. I don't understand the use of the kanji and the furigana. I found the article of the translator at ja:WP. ja:厨川圭子. I've read several sentences of her translation of the book at here. Nothing wrong but "見ることができますまい。". It seems to be an old fashioned and a bit too formal to me. But according to this page, the translation is rough, the translator's attitude is favorable though. And this is my guesswork. The word うわべ is usually written in hiragana. Translators do not use difficult kanji when translating children's books, but if there are too many hiragana, the sentence is confusing and difficult to read. The translator might have thought to use kanji as there were too many hiragana before and after the word. Generally speaking, 表面 is a word more often seen than 上辺 and familiar even to the children. Or she simply did not like 字面/jizura, the appearance of the characters 上辺. Anyway she used 表面/うわべ. I don't think it was a good idea, it would be OK if it's a book for adults though. Usually native readers do not care/think about the kind of furigana and they just keep reading. Oda Mari (talk) 10:38, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

It may be (I'm not sure) that the formal or old-fashioned tone in places is deliberate. The original English now seems slightly old-fashioned in places, being over 100 years old, and I suppose it's possible that the translator was trying to capture that. By the way, does 粗い in that review mean "rough" in the sense of "not very well written"? 86.177.108.236 (talk) 17:52, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

It's a matter of precision/accuracy. What the reviewer says is she have simplified sentences difficult to translate. Momoko Ishii's 1972 translation is highly acclaimed. It might be interesting to compare the translations. Ishii's 1972 translation: Hardcover and paperback Oda Mari (talk) 09:03, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I've read three-quarters of the 厨川圭子 translation in parallel with the English, and for the most part the translation seems very faithful to the original in terms of basic information content. I can't comment on its style or subtlety and nuance, though, since I don't have a good enough feel for the language. 86.179.115.158 (talk) 22:47, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Japanese and Chinese names

Both Japanese names and Chinese names are FAMILYNAME, GIVENNAME. However, in normal English usage, we render them differently, so it's always Shinzō Abe (GIVENNAME, FAMILYNAME) of Japan and Mao Zedong (FAMILYNAME, GIVENNAME) of the PRC, never Abe Shinzō or Zedong Mao. Why do we treat them differently? 2001:18E8:2:1020:30F4:F313:6D39:FA4 (talk) 20:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of is that Chinese people tend to also have English givennames, in addition to their Chinese name. When they use their English names, we use the English word order. Japanese people do not, however, tend to have English names (though some do, but these are mostly their actual names, taken from English, such as 'Rinda' (for 'Linda'), or 'Arisu' (for 'Alice'). Also, the change in word order is not always the norm. Plenty of Japanese 'tarento' tend to still use their Japanese word order for their names. Yaida Hitomi, Aikawa Nanase, Tokiwa Takako are three that come to mind. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I think you've got a point; the reason why Chinese people often take English forenames is closely related to one of the reasons they don't reverse their name order: Chinese given names don't work in quite the same way as in English. You can't really separate out the given name on its own; even Chairman Mao's close friends would never have just called him Zedong. In comparison, given names in Japanese are pretty much the same as in English, i.e. they're used on their own among friends or family members. 114.252.68.112 (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

From the research I did, the name switching thing started in the Meiji era. I guess it's because the Japanese had this period of trying to become more Westernized. The Chinese at times had "modernization" movements but apparently they didn't go as far as the Japanese did. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:48, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

See Japanese name#Japanese names in English and Western languages. Oda Mari (talk) 09:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The person whose Wikipedia entry is at Chao Yuen Ren, was known as "Yuen Ren Chao" or "Yuen-Ren Chao" in most English-language sources during most of the 20th century... AnonMoos (talk) 02:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

You think his article should be moved back to "Yuen Ren Chao"? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:42, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

That's certainly what he published his linguistics works as, and what Western linguists knew him by when he was prominent in the field. I have his collected English-language papers on Chinese linguistics (ISBN 0-8047-0909-2), and it's subtitled "Essays by Yuen Ren Chao". AnonMoos (talk) 06:20, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Hissa Hilal early poetry books (Arabic)

Can an Arabic speaker provide a translation of these two titles for me?

• لهجة الهيل
• النداوي

Since the article I am drafting has English titles of her later work, it seems like a good idea to have some uniformity by translating (rather than transliterating) these titles. Thanks! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:25, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• The Language of the Sand Heap — Lahjat al-Hayl
• The Bedewed One — al-Nadāwī

Hayl also is a homonym meaning 'cardamom' but I'm guessing that 'heaped sand' is the likelier meaning. I would need to read that book to make certain, but I haven't found access to it anywhere here in America. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 05:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the Arabic in this picture? (Rotana Jet)

What is the Arabic in the upper right hand corner of http://archive.is/r2b3m ? It is for Rotana Jet. Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 22:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

It's "rūtānā jat" (or "jit"?), i.e. basically just the same name in Arabic letters. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Alright. I would like to have the Arabic letters themselves to post in the article. Thank you for your help :) WhisperToMe (talk) 00:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

It says "روتانا جت". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam! WhisperToMe (talk) 01:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Arabic article - where does it originate?

I've found an article re-posted on a number of forums, but I'm not a speaker of Arabic and I'm having trouble figuring out where it originates, so that I can cite it properly and make sure it's a reliable source. It's the article posted here. Please help me out! –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I haven't studied Arabic or Hebrew, but I remember the term derives from a Semitic form har which is usually ha- in Hebrew (if I am right) and accounts for the first syllable in Armageddon, i.e., har-Megiddo. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

This came from the demonstrative pronoun la ل .--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems this is still a matter of some controversy, but Al-#Al-_comes_from_a_proto-Semitic_particle seems correct, and deriving it from the negative la- looks like an obvious pseudo-etymology. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Read more attentively. The aforementioned source doesn't say anything about the negative particle lā لا (though it's mentioned on the very other page).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm not asking about articles in the grammatical sense. I've linked a news article as re-posted on a forum because I can't find the news source where it comes from. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

LOl! μηδείς (talk) 15:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Roscelese, the text you're asking about appears to consist of a brief bio introduction to Ms. Ḥiṣṣah Hilāl and her work in the first post, and then the rest of the posts are poems by her. At the bottom of the first post, it gives the attribution: "The source is: The I Love You Forums, from the section: The forum of the poetry collections of the poets." Which links to the index page of that forum on the same site. It appears to me that the introduction was probably written by the guy who posted it, Baʻīd al-Haqqāwī, just for posting in that forum, and that he also made the selection of poems himself. Under his name at the top it says he is the manager of the poetry, story, and novel forums on that site. The surest way to know would be to contact him directly, but you have to be registered at that forum to be able to contact him. I think you're probably on safe ground giving Baʻīd al-Haqqāwī as the author/anthologist of the text, and as for the place and date of publication, the forum he attributed as the source. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 01:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh damn, that would mean it's not a reliable source. You mention that you're interested in Hilal's poetry yourself - do you happen to know where this biographical information (eg. previous papers she worked for, her husband) might come from? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I've been looking, but I'm not turning up much online either. I looked on WorldCat for any possible library resource, but her name didn't turn up anywhere. You could probably glean small bits of information like "A published poet, Mrs Hilal - who is reported not to have studied at university - held the position of poetry editor for the Arab daily newspaper, al-Hayat" from RS like BBC. (But I see you already got that one.) We'll keep looking... Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 22:45, 26 August 2013 (UTC)