Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 July 29

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July 29

How, then!

Hey everyone, I'm still reading The Chronicles of Prydain and one phrase that keeps appearing is "How, then!" - often exclaimed by the characters. I don't hear this phrase really in day-to-day conversations I have, so I was wondering if anyones knows more about the phrase? And also if it's equivalent to "What?" or similar exclamations of confusion (like I think it is)? Thanks! --Yellow1996 (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid it will be almost entirely unhelpful, but accurate, to tell you it means, "Well, now!" (Basically, indicating the speaker has noticed something, a person to greet, or a situation to demand explanation for, or so on.) μηδείς (talk) 02:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

A common greeting in Yorkshire (more so in the past) is "now then", simply meaning "hello" [1]. It's sometimes pronounced "'ow then". Our East Midlands English article says it's used there too (but doesn't give a reference). Could "how then" simply be a mutation of "now then"? -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 02:16, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

"Now then" is perhaps tainted these days by its association with Jimmy Savile. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been greeted with a "How, now!" here and there. Not sure if it's the same as "How, then!" or opposite, but I nod and say hi, and it seems to be what they were looking for. Also sometimes "How now, brown cow". InedibleHulk (talk) 07:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Given that the work is based on The Mabinogion and set in Dark Ages Wales, Alexander may have been reproducing (or suggesting) a Welsh-English and/or archaic phrase. We need a resident of Wales to tell us if it's still current in modern English of the area, and someone versed in The Mabinogion or contemporary literature to say if it's authentically old. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 12:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Exactly what I was looking for; and any further insight is welcome. Thanks, everyone! :) --Yellow1996 (talk) 16:13, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard a Welsh person say it in English, and it isn't ringing any bells with my (admittedly rather cursory) knowledge of Cymraeg. Alansplodge (talk) 16:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Being an alien

Does anyone, besides the US government, use the word 'alien' for foreigners? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.76.236.175 (talk) 17:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the English word in that sense has a long history in English law, so is understood in the laws of many common law countries other than the US: see Alien (law). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:50, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but then it's limited to the legal field and alien films? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.76.236.175 (talk) 18:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The usage in the US and in other common law countries is not far different. In most of these countries, it describes (i) non-earthling people; and (ii) non-citizens. You referred to the US government - are you saying the US government uses the word "alien" in a different sense to the legal one? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:37, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

No, I mean that in the legal sense they use the word alien in a different sense. I thought that was a US thing, but apparently other countries do it too. I just want to know if someone speaking colloquially refers to someone being an alien, or even writing an essay, would you say that someone is an alien when you mean foreigner? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.76.236.175 (talk) 18:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that using alien to mean noncitizen is pretty much restricted to legal contexts and especially collocations like "illegal alien" and "resident alien". If someone refers colloquially to someone else as an alien, it's true if the person referred to isn't a citizen of the country in question, but it will usually be understood as meaning the person referred to is an extraterrestrial, because if we meant he was a foreigner, we'd say he was a foreigner, which is the more common, everyday word. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The term used depends on context. A foreigner is someone with a different culture because he s from a different nation. An alien is someone who doesn't have local legal residence. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

And what is a "legal alien", if an "alien" is someone who is not legally in a country? OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure whether people with permanent residence status are still called aliens (to me it implies temporary status), but it is quite clear that alien is being used in a legal context when it is contrasted with foreign as is used in a cultural sense. People in America are not called legal foreigners or described as having alien accents. (natives of Canada, as an honorary territory, being the obvious exception.) μηδείς (talk) 00:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

See wikt:alien and http://www.onelook.com/?w=alien&ls=a.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

All my life growing up in Australia the ONLY meaning I was aware of for alien was someone not from earth. It was only when I saw more grown up American movies and TV shows that I discovered that the word alien is used by Americans to also mean "not an American". It's not just in formal/legal situations. And it's only in American English that I've experienced this usage. That's MY experience. I haven't encountered any other country using it the way Americans do. I can understand the OP's question. If other countries do it, it's rare. HiLo48 (talk) 22:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is a shame people have stopped learning Latin and other related foreign languages. Alien comes from the Latin, foreign < strange < "alienus" belonging to another (c.f., alius) I suppose those of us who learn English from American movies will think "alienus" has something to do with probing. To blame Americans for using the word in the proper sense is oh so drôle. μηδείς (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Humani nihil a me alienum puto. Deor (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's one of my favorite sayings. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The word "alien" was in existence before people started seriously speculating about extraterrestrial life. Thus, its original primary meaning was in reference to humans. Wiktionary:alien has a quote from the Bible: Aliens from the common wealth of Israel, which I'm sure was not talking about Martians. Only one of the 4 meanings given refers to extraterrestrials. But I agree that times have changed, and without a context to guide the reader, a mention of the word "alien" would generally be assumed to refer to extraterrestrial life. I also agree that, when used of humans, it seems to be used in Am-Eng far more than in other varieties. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:24, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The Alien and Sedition Acts, passed during the Adams administration, I think I can safely guarantee 100 percent was about humans, not extraterrestrials. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

That's what they want you to think. --Trovatore (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, they want you to think that Alien was about the monster depicted therein, but actually it's about Sigourney Weaver, who is a citizen of hardly any of the countries of Earth. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

All my life growing up in Australia the ONLY meaning I was aware of for alien was someone not from earth. That reflects on your lack of experience more than on Australian usage. A HUGE problem in Australia is Alien species. The "not from earth" is a recent usage from 1953 [[2]], based on the original meaning of "not from around here" or "somebody else's". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 06:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

No it reflects on perhaps sloppy language by me in a thread that was obviously about humans (and spacemen). HiLo48 (talk) 07:18, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The use of the word in English is ancient – OED's earliest quotation for the meaning "Belonging to another person, place, or family; not of one's own; from elsewhere, foreign" is from Wycliffe's Bible, dating to about 1382. The earliest quotation for the meaning "An (intelligent) being from another planet; an extraterrestrial" dates to 1931. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 10:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The China folks have use the same interesting term for foreigners too... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah...I had a big laugh the other time when I was about to enter Zhuhai, and as I was picking up the arrival card, there was a notice there asking "aliens to take one" (or something like that). ✉→Arctic Kangaroo←✎ 15:11, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Hey, I had a similar experience in both Beijing and Hainandao. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:06, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Foreigners living in Japan have to carry a 外国人登録証明書, which translates literally as 'Certificate of Foreigner Registration', but the actual translation on the card is 'Certificate of Alien Registration', which always brings a laugh when Japanese people ask you where you are from, and you say "I'm an alien" and then 'prove' it by showing them the card. :) KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:23, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The alien registration system in Japan was replaced with the new foreign residents' registration system. You cannot prove you are an alian any more. --Kusunose 06:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

• I have only ever been an Auslander; that is, an Outlander; not even documented when I went to Niagara Falls. Although the girl who wanted to get in the same pool I was occupying asked with a French accent if I were Roman Catholic. I enjoyed telling her no, as I am Byzantine Catholic. Does being an Auslander make me outlandish? μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Question about Chinese characters

What are the Chinese characters in File:Phuoc_Loc_Tho_Tet_2008.jpg?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 23:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I found something on the Chinese Wikipedia. Are they 福祿壽 ? WhisperToMe (talk) 23:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The separate characters in Chinese amount to Fú Lù Shòu, apparently meaning "Blessed Fortune Life" and apparently correspond to Phước Lộc Thọ in Vietnamese, meaning the same thing (presumably a borrowing from Chinese). I say apparently and presumably, because I speak neither language, but know how to use Google Translate. It makes obvious sense to use characters with the same good meaning in Chinese and Vietnamese. μηδείς (talk) 00:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Our article is Fukurokuju and the vi:WP article is vi:Phước Lộc Thọ (Nhật Bản). Oda Mari (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

That's fascinating that we've got three genetically unrelated languages using the same characters and what are obviously a three-word-phraae borrowed from Chinese. It should be possible with a few more examples to reconstruct the original Chinese. I am sure it has been done somewhere. μηδείς (talk) 16:29, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

There is also the article Fu Lu Shou. Sussexonian (talk) 02:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

"壽" is better translated as "longevity" or "long life" rather than simply put "life". "福" and "祿" are very similar; the former means "fortune" (more towards good exam results, etc.) and the latter means "prosperity" (more towards lots and lots of cash, etc.) ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, "have a long and fortunate life" is what is said, even when what is meant is "have a long and fortunate lifespan". Not a big deal or worth bothering over. μηδείς (talk) 02:41, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

If you look closely in the photo you'll see the statues of the three deities in front of the building. DHN (talk) 00:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

How to say this in Georgian?

How do I say "YouTube user Saabkyle04 reviewed a 2012 Lamborghini Aventador. His video viewed over 1 million times." in Georgian language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiel457 (talk • contribs) 23:03, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Brunei

How is the English language Recognized in Brunei? where in the Constitution does it say that? and what does Recognized in this case mean anyway? Tony Shark789 (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Our article says "English is also used in business, as a working language, and as the language of instruction from primary to tertiary education".

The Brunei constitution can be seen if you follow reference #2. Paragraph 82, section 2 says:

(2) An official version in the English language shall be provided of anything which, by this Constitution or by any written law or by the Standing Orders, is required to be printed or in writing, and such version shall, in addition to the official Malay version, be accepted as an authentic text.

Rojomoke (talk) 05:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

But the Constitution doesn't say it's Recognized?, and what does Recognized language mean in this case? Toby323 (talk) 02:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

That would depend on how the word "recognized" is used in whatever source the OP read. I've never been to Brunei, but I can't imagine English is not "recognized" there in the ordinary meaning of that word, meaning it is an acceptable language for the conduct of ordinary discourse, assuming one's interlocutor understands the language. Perhaps the OP is thinking about its status as an "official language", but that would be a slightly different question. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:30, 31 July 2013 (UTC)