Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 March 19

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March 19

要領よく / 要領のよさ (Japanese)

Hi, does anyone know what 「いかに要領よく生きるか」 means? The context is university student outlook/mentality.

Also, in 「大学生の実態を理解するとき、私語やノートの貸し借りが横糸なら、要領のよさは縦糸の関係」, what does 要領のよさ refer to? I assume this is related in some way to the usage above. 86.160.222.250 (talk) 00:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The translation of the first sentence is "How to live efficiently". The meaning of the word "要領" in this usage is the way you handle things/matters/ people, to play one's cards, and to conduct oneself. See #3 and [1]. Unlike the word "手際がいい", "要領よく" sometimes connotates "crafty" or "cunning". 要領のよさ is the noun form of the adverb 要領よく. The meaning is the same. Oda Mari (talk) 05:49, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I see, thanks. Is "efficiently" referring to getting the most advantage out of the smallest amount of effort in life? 86.151.118.36 (talk) 12:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

No. It has nothing to do with effort. It means knowing how to do things properly, how to handle situations, or being able to deal with problems, leading to favourable results. @ Mari, I would not like to translate it as 'crafty' or 'cunning', as both of those words can be either positive or negative (depending on whose side you are on), but "要領よく" is almost always positive, in my experience. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I think 「いかに要領よく生きるか」 can be translated "how to succeed in life without really trying". See this page. Three native en speakers and two ja speakers translate the word. Oda Mari (talk) 15:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

So, we're saying that the expression could have either positive or negative connotations depending on the context/viewpoint, yes? 86.179.113.161 (talk) 18:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it depends on context/viewpoint and who/what is talked about. "He did the work 要領よく." generally means "He actually did the work efficiently but in his cunning/crafty way". "How can I do this work more 要領よく?" is positive and generally means "(As I'm clumsy), I want to do the work more efficiently." The percentage/ratio of positiveness and negativeness depends. If the original context is this book, this 要領よく is definitely negative. Oda Mari (talk) 07:35, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, yes, the context is actually a newspaper article discussing those findings of 島田博司. 86.171.43.66 (talk) 12:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The language most heavily influenced by Scandinavian.

Barring North Germanic languages theirselves, may I ask which language was most strongly influenced by North Germanic? Is it English? French? Dutch? German? Something else? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 06:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Presumably English -- during the Viking period, Old English and Old Norse weren't exactly mutually comprehensible, but they had many similarities and someone who spoke one language and could learn to compensate for some of the structural differences could relatively quickly start to understand the other language. There was a lot of contact between speakers of the languages during that time (see Danelaw etc.), and the English third plural pronouns ("they, them, their") come from Scandinavian... AnonMoos (talk) 07:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. They were so much in contact with each other that Snorri Sturluson wrote about a Viking soldier escaping from the massacre at the Battle of Stamford Bridge, asking a local Saxon farmer if he can have his horse, and the Saxon said, "I will not give you my horse, because you are a Norseman. I can tell that by your accent." (The Viking then killed him with his axe and took the horse anyway). The languages were not exactly mutually intelligible, but close enough to make learning extremely easy. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Bloody Vikings! Alansplodge (talk) 14:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

At least he was polite enough to ask first! KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Definitely English. As others have noted, Old Norse, or more precisely the Old East Norse dialect, profoundly influenced English, including basic vocabulary such as pronouns. Contact between Old English and Old East Norse may have contributed to the morphological simplification of late Old English, including the loss of grammatical case and gender endings for nouns and adjectives. Next to English, the language probably most heavily influenced by North Germanic (or depending on the timing of the influence, a northern variety of proto-Germanic) is Finnish. Marco polo (talk) 14:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

If you consider Scots a separate language rather than a dialect of English, then Scots arguably shows even stronger Old Norse influence than English. Marco polo (talk) 15:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it would be English or Scots most affected. There was borrowing, especially of nautical terms into Norman French, and also borrowing into Irish Gaelic, again including nautical terms. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Another language strongly influenced (though not to the extent of English or Scots) by North Germanic (specifically Danish) is Greenlandic. Marco polo (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Scottish Gaelic is more heavily influenced by Norse than Irish is; Scottish Gaelic not only has a metric ton of Norse loanwords, even its phonology has been influenced by Norse: like Icelandic, the voicing distinction has been replaced by an aspiration distinction and it has preaspiration; like Norwegian and Swedish, r causes retroflexion of a following coronal consonant and it's acquired a tonal distinction based on the number of syllables the word used to have. Angr (talk) 23:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Olymp as short form of olympus

I wonder, whether the word "olymp" can be used as a short form of "olympus", the mountain and home of the greece gods. But I can't find any reference or indication, that it's known and used so. --134.3.11.14 (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Not in English, but "Olymp" is used in German and some other languages for the same mountain. - Lindert (talk) 12:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Just curious as to why you would think of that. Did you come across such a usage in a book or other publication? If so, perhaps you can provide the sentence in which you found it. Anyway, using the Google Ngram Viewer, I note that the word does appear in printed works, with a peak around the turn of the 19th century. Perhaps it is used in a poetic sense, or simply an abbreviated form of the word Olympus, Olympic or Olympiad. See, for example, this sentence from A Collection of Scarce and Valuable Tracts: "... Hippostratus placed it in Olymp. III., others in Olymp. XXI." Here, it is clearly an abbreviation of Olympiad. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 12:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

My native language is german, maybe I like the sound of "olymp" better. The reason why I think, or hope, it's a short form is, because over the last year I created a game and wanted to name it something like "shattered olympus". But I like the name "shattered olymp" better, the question is whether is comprehensible enough to use. --134.3.11.14 (talk) 13:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, to me, as a Brit, "Shattered Olymp" sounds like a medical condition. I would go with 'Olympus'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so far, for your help and feedback! I really appreciate that! --134.3.11.14 (talk) 13:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing you might come across in, say, poetry of the Romantic era if it were needed to fit a line. Using it outside that sort of context will likely not be understood. My impression is that Olymp actually sounds rather ugly. μηδείς (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

No point referring to "my impression" if you don't tell us who you are. Use 4 tildes (~) at the end to sign and date your posts. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I am tempted to ask if you are unfamiliar with looking at the edit history, but I know you aren't.

To whoever "I" is: If you expect readers to trawl through edit histories to identify their interlocutors, think again. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I only expects the ones who care to do that. μηδείς (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

"Up with your damned nonsense will I put twice, or perhaps once, but sometimes always, by God, never." (Hans Richter) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 16:56, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

According to EO,[2] "Olympus... high mountain in Thessaly, abode of the gods, from Greek Olympos, of unknown origin. The name was given to several mountains, each seemingly the highest in its district." That last is rather telling. Maybe it's an ancient word for "the tallest one". "Olymp", however, sounds like it could mean "the lamest one". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Isn't Olympus attributed to the Pelasgians? μηδείς (talk) 00:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

For me, "Olymp" (without a trailing abbreviation dot) would bring to mind Olympe Bradna and not much else. AnonMoos (talk) 16:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I think of Olympe de Gouges. There's also the city Olympe (which confused the hell out of me, I must say, because the lede is about a place called Olympa, and the Greek Ολύμπη suggests it would be romanised as Olympi). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The letter Eta (η) is only Romanized into English as "i" in a modern Greek context. In any kind of classical or ancient context, the basic Romanized equivalent is "e"; if the Greek 1st declension is assimilated to the Latin 1st declension, then a final "e" can become "a" in some cases (which would explain "Olympa", I presume). AnonMoos (talk) 19:43, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, AnonMoos. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:02, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Hebrew: functions of the dagesh

As per our article, the Hebrew diacritic dagesh "has the effect of modifying the sound in one of two ways," and thus two types of dagesh are distinguished: dagesh hazaq and dagesh qal. But can a dagesh perform both functions at the same time? For example, in the word מַכַּבִּי, מַכַּבִּים (Maccabee, Maccabees) the dagesh inside the כ clearly indicates that there is a plosive /k/ rather than a fricative /χ/ (that is the hazaq qal function). But that word is usually transliterated with a double 'kk' (or a double 'cc') into other scripts - Latin, Greek, Russian Cyrillic. So does the dagesh also indicate that the /k/ is geminated (the qal hazaq function)? In general, can letters that take the dagesh hazaq qal be both plosive and geminated? --Theurgist (talk) 14:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

A Dagesh Hazak, when used in one of the letters בגדכפּת (beth, gimel, dalet, kaph, peh or tav), always signifies a doubling of the hard (plosive) sound, thus a Dagesh Hazak in such a letter is automatically a Dagesh Qal as well. The basic rule to distinguish a mere Dagesh Qal from a Dagesh Hazak in one of these 6 letters is that if the letter is preceded by a vowel, it is a Dagesh Hazak, if preceded by a consonant (with silent shewa), it is a Dagesh Qal. For example, עַתָּה is `attah, but שָׁמַרְתִּי is shamarti, שַׁבָּת is shabbat, but אַרְבַּע is arba`. - Lindert (talk) 15:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! (I had mixed up the terms in my original post, corrected now.) So not only the כ, but the ב in "Maccabee" is geminated as well. That information is very interesting, and I find it noteworthy and think it needs a mention in the article. If the letter is initial, it again is a dagesh qal (כָּתַב katav), right? --Theurgist (talk) 15:56, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in the first consonant of a word it is a dagesh qal, as in כָּתַב. - Lindert (talk) 16:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Note that some fonts (designed for use in tanakhs and siddurim) distinguish between the two dagesh-marks graphically (dagesh hazaq is usually rendered larger and sometimes square) with this particular sort of ambiguity in mind. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 04:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Alois Hitler?

How does one pronounce Alois Hitler's first name? I've always assumed it was something like "alwaa", approximating a French pronunciation, but I have no sources for this. JIP | Talk 19:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

AH-loys. There may be slight regional variants, though. Lectonar (talk) 19:40, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

So I have been wrong all this time. I have been pronouncing it as if it were French, when I should have been pronouncing it as if it were German, Alois Hitler's native language. JIP | Talk 19:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, to your credit, Alois looks French, really. But the French, to make the pronounciatian clear, write: Aloïs Lectonar (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be three syllables? Is it two or three in German? --Trovatore (talk) 20:16, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

i always assumed that was Aloïs. μηδείς (talk) 22:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, correct, but without the trema, the French would pronounce it as JIP mentioned. And that is what I meant with regional differences: even in Germany you can find the name pronounced as A-lo-is, three syllables (usually people from the northern parts of Germany trying to pronounce it), and AH-loys in Bavaria and Austria. Lectonar (talk) 20:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be a general notion that unusual foreign names are pronounced as if they were French, regardless of which country they're actually from. Two that come to mind are:

• the Spanish name Enrique. That's /en-ree-kay/, three syllables; but I've heard knowledgeable people say it as /oŋ-reek/, as if it were French, which it's not.
• the Russian name Andrey (Andrei). That's /ahn-drey/, not the Frenchified /on-drey/ (or worse, /oŋ-ri/). -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Somehow Hyperforeignism comes to my mind, but I do not know if it is related at all. Lectonar (talk) 21:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

What rules exist in the french language that would cause Andrey to be pronounced /oŋ-ri/ specifically where does ŋ come into play? Ryan Vesey 23:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Search me. But I've heard TV commentators say the first name of Andrei Chesnokov as if it were the French names (a) André and (b) Henri. Sports commentators are a breed unto themselves, really. Their penchant for irritatingly incomprehensible utterances is legendary. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Jack, I've heard the Russian Andrei pronounced with three syllables (And-re-i). Is that incorrect? With two syllables it seems more French to me. Omidinist (talk) 04:28, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Андрей has two syllables: ahn-drey, with the stress on the 2nd. Most Westerners assume it starts out as "on" something, but the first syllable is "ahn", just as it's spelt; it's quite unlike the nasalised way a Frenchman says the An- of André. The pronunciation with three syllables belongs to the plural Андреи (as in "I don't know which of these Andreis I prefer"), but there, the final syllable would be stressed and would be quite distinctly separate from the -dre-  : an-dre-I. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 04:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of where IPA might be helpful. I hear no distinction at all between "on" and "ahn". --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 14:45, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

In my world, "on" is /ɔːn/, and "ahn" is /ɑːn/ - I think (I always have to guess with IPA since there's no correspondence table I've ever found that translates IPA symbols to something meaningful to me. That's the problem with IPA - those in the know know, but others are left floundering and end up not using it at all.) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

There may be some interference from Ondrej. --ColinFine (talk) 16:33, 20 March 2013 (UTC)