Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 March 18

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March 18

Deciphering cursive handwriting: File:Steamship Bienville on-board restaurant menu (April 7, 1861).jpg

The cursive at File:Steamship Bienville on-board restaurant menu (April 7, 1861).jpg is written in a way which I can't easily read. What does it say? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:14, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

More or less, this:

From Havana to New Orleans
New York & New Orleans U.S.M. Steamship BIENVILLE
DINNER BILL OF FARE
Apr. 7, 1861

Soup: Pea
Fish: Boiled stuffed Bass, Lobster Sauce
Boiled: Ham, Cold; Tongue, Cold; Corned Beef, Cabbage; Mutton, Caper Sauce; Turkey; Fowl
Roast: Beef, Lamb, Turkey, Chickens, Goose, Apple Sauce; Duck

Entrees
Stewed Kidney [Border?] Mashed Potatos
Mutton Chop, Breads, Tomatos, Curried Chicken with Rice; Veal Pot-Pie

Vegetables
Baked Mashed; Plain, Sweet Potatoes, Stewed Tomatos.

except for [Border], but I can't think what would complete "Stewed Kidney" as an entree and isn't Beans. - Nunh-huh 05:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Maybe Stewed Kidneys, with a border of mashed potatoes, with the little words annoyingly left out.... - Nunh-huh 05:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking "Bordelaise", but I can't really see "Borde?" being short for it.--Rallette (talk) 10:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Could that be a w rather than an e, so it might say Bord. w. - i.e. stewed kidneys bordelaise with mashed potatoes? ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 17:51, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it's "Stewed Kidneys Bed of Mash Potatos" --TammyMoet (talk) 18:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the words afer "Mutton Chop" are "Breaded Tomatos" rather than "Breads, Tomatos". Whether it's the chops or the tomatoes that are breaded is unclear. Deor (talk) 12:16, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much, guys! WhisperToMe (talk) 13:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Tall and lanky

"Lanky" means "tall" but with an added nuance of an appearance of awkwardness or ungainliness, a function of the length of the limbs. To be short and lanky would be a contradiction in terms.

Why, then, are lanky people almost always described as "tall and lanky"? Isn't "lanky" enough? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:37, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

"Lanky" generally implies that you're not only tall and ungainly, but thin as well. See Wikt:lanky. But you're probably right; it's just one of those idioms. Alansplodge (talk) 11:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's usually just a lazy cliche. See also Siamese twins (linguistics).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Check. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I dispute your premise. Searching "tall and lanky" (with quotes) gives 45 results, whilst searching 'lanky -tall' (without quotes) gives 314 results. Ok, some of the latter include 'Lanky' as a proper noun, but still; I think 'lanky' on its own is more common than 'tall and lanky'. Whether it's a suitably encyclopaedic description is another matter. By the way, I turned up a couple of results (e.g. Mitsubishi Toppo) that appear to use 'lanky' as a synonym for tall. The article I linked suggested the Japanese word is noppo - any Japanese speakers care to confirm if 'tall' would be an accurate, less colloquial, translation? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I've spent too long living on disputed premises to move now.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

"Lanky" originally meant more like "thin".[1] By now it's kind of a redundancy. But it does distinguish from "big and tall". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:48, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can see that's relevant.

Thanks, everybody. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:42, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Nguyen

I've been told that the Asian name Nguyen is pronounced much like the English word Win. How did this spelling come about? Dismas|^(talk) 13:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it isn't (in the native Southeast Asian languages where it comes from) pronounced much like the English word "Win". The problem is that English speakers destroy the original pronunciation so thoroughly, people who have that name have conceded and done their best to pick an English pronunciation which is kinda close, but it really isn't. The Wikipedia article Nguyễn contains the native pronunciations of the name, and links to sound files where you can listen to it. The major hang-up for English speakers is the initial "ng" sound, which is pronounced like the end of the word "sing". English doesn't have any native words that use that sound as an initial consonant, and as such, it trips up many English speakers. "Win" or "Wen" is as good as most can do. --Jayron32 14:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I had a friend in college that said to just not pronounce the N or y and only half of the g. Like gwen165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

If you pronounce the initial "ng" before "win", and manage to keep it as one syllable, you're close to the vietnamese pronunciation. I wonder if there's interference from the Vietnamese name Huynh, also approximated as "Win" in America. - filelakeshoe (t / c) 15:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

From what I have encountered in Australia at least, the usual "Anglicisation" of "Nguyen" is "new-en", with some people making more of an effort to simulate the Vietnamese pronunciation. Another variant is to pronounce "Nguyen" as if it was the English surname "Nugent", but that is probably more often encountered in communities outside the big cities with almost no exposure to Vietnamese people. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:20, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

During the Vietnam war, anyway, American newscasters typically pronounced it "NEW-yin". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

It's just a no-win situation? Clarityfiend (talk) 02:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Vietnamese is written with the Vietnamese alphabet, and this spelling is how it's written in Vietnamese sans the diacritics. DHN (talk) 01:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

• France Nuyen was born France Nguyen Van Nga. μηδείς (talk) 00:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

"Passed master"

Is it ever correct to use this phrase to refer to an expert in his or her field, or is it simply an error for "past master"? The latter is a well established term but I am not at all sure that the former is an acceptable alternative. This online dictionary [2] lists it and even includes a citation, but I'm still not convinced. I suspect most of the usages of "passed master" are errors arising from confusion with "past master" or even with "passed muster". However "passed master" does apparently have a specific meaning in the context of Freemasonry [3]. --Viennese Waltz 15:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The two terms ("passed master" and "past master") appear to have different meanings and both appear to be grammatical.

In "past master", "past" means "belonging to a prior time", as in "in the past". A "past master" is a master in the past.

In "passed master", "passed" is short for "passed X test", which test is presumably understood from context. A "passed master" is a master who has passed some test.

Acontextually, I'm not sure either of them are common phrases, though "passed master" sounds more like a rarely used idiomatic expression whereas "past master" is a more contextually specific but less figurative expression. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:15, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

All uses I've ever seen of this phrase denote not the passage of time, but rather a status beyond mastery - "These guys are past masters of carpentry, I'd hire them in a second" means "These guys are so virtuosic with wood that calling them mere 'masters' would be borderline insulting" - that is, they are past in the sense of beyond or above the rank of "master." ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 18:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I am doubtful that "status beyond mastery" is the original meaning of this expression. Some sources suggest an origin in Freemasonry, a "past master" being a former master of a lodge. 86.151.118.36 (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

• As usual, Ngram is your friend here: [4]. You can see that the phrase "past master" is common enough, though becoming archaic; it peaked in usage in the 1920s. The phrase "passed master" is essentially unknown; so I suspect that in most cases if you find it, it would be a mistyping of "past master". AFAIK, the actual phrase "past master" just means an expert, usually an older, more wizened one. Interestingly, Merriam-Webster indicates that "passed master" is the original term, and that "past master" is a later alteration, and gives no distinction in usage. However, from Ngrams, it's clear that the phrase "past master" is the recognizable one. --Jayron32 18:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that Jayron's answer has passed muster. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

"Sisu" meaning "child"

I was told "sisu" (or a word sounding like it) means "child" in some Asian language. Which language is it, and how is the word actually spelled? JIP | Talk 19:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

From a quick glance at wikt:child, I found Bengali wikt:শিশু, which has a transcription <śiśu>. Haven't looked through the rest of the translations. rʨanaɢ (talk) 19:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

[The article "Sisu" and your Finnish nationality might explain your interest in this word.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:50, 19 March 2013 (UTC)]

Yes it might, I felt it was so obvious that I didn't care to mention it. JIP | Talk 19:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)