Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 February 6

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February 6

More than once did I meet him in New York.

Is "More than once did I meet him in New York." a correct sentence? Or do I have only to say it in the natural word order like "I met him more than once in New York"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"More than once did I meet him in New York" uses a slightly old-fashioned way of indicating rhetorical emphasis. As a basic non-emphatic sentence it's not correct. As an emphatic sentence, it would depend on the context whether it's stylistically appropriate... AnonMoos (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It's a good way of writing in a novel, for variety, because straightforward sentences get boring. In a joke you might hear it. It wouldn't work for more than the occasional sentence, and it's not for normal speech. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This is the answer to your question above. Yes, it can be inverted, and you have done it correctly. But if you use it in speech, people will think you are being funny. Yoda from Star Wars talks this way. μηδείς (talk) 02:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I think Yoda would render it something more along the lines of "more than once meet him in New York I did". Now that I hear that in my head, it sounds Irish, so maybe that's not quite right either. --Trovatore (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I thought we had a Yoda speech article--maybe it got deleted. His article does mention in passing that his work order is a very inconsistent OSV. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

"Yoda Speak" redirects to Anastrophe... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A term for clothes worn by patients in hospital

Is there a term for clothes worn by patients in hospital? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• hospital gown. μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• I agree, if what is meant is those one-piece garments that are usually knee-length and with back fastenings. If something else is meant, then it may be better to use the more specific terms mentioned by Andrew below, or use a generic term like "hospital attire". — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• Pyjamas, dressing gown? AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

His mind kept wandering, sometimes to whether... and sometimes to whether...

"His mind kept wandering, sometimes to whether his wife had recovered from her disease,and sometimes to whether his son had got back home safe and sound." Is the above sentence correct in its structure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It's fine. μηδείς (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

grudge his apples

When I want to express that he is unwilling to give me some of his apples,can I say that he grudges his apples? Is the verb "grudge" a good choice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:32, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The verb in this case is begrudge. "We were best friends, but he has begrudged me my every success since I beat him for the sports scholarship." "He lost the bet, and handed over the money begrudgingly." "My wife loves to bake, but she begrudges every last dollop of cookie dough I steal from the mixing bowl." μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Try 'he begrudgingly gave me apples'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, or, "He begrudged me the apples."

Though grudge is not a verb to me, grudging(ly) is normal to me. I wonder why. —Tamfang (talk) 03:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

"He begrudged me the apples" just doesn't sound right, while "He begrudgingly gave me the apples" sounds good. StuRat (talk) 17:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't you need to say "He begrudged having to give me the apples" or perhaps "He begrudged the apples he gave me"? In other words, I don't think you "begrudge to someone". Rather, you "begrudge something", possibly to someone! Note that all of these formulations suggest that, however unwillingly, the apples are given over. The OP needs to find another way of describing things if the result should be that the apples remain with their original owner! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.36.38.240 (talk) 14:00, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

It would be unusual for someone to begrudge the apples. Generally, someone would begrudge the person or other circumstances that deprived him of the apples. Unless he's actually bearing a grudge against the apples for something they did to him.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

mottled with peeling paint or mottled by the peelings of paint?

Which of the following two sentences is correct? Or both? "The ceiling is mottled with peeling paint." and "The ceiling is mottled by the peelings of paint." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The first. μηδείς (talk) 03:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The sun shines on me heavily.

Can I say "The sun shines on me heavily."? If not, then how about "The sun shines on me with strength"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.211.28 (talk) 07:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's OK as a metaphor if the sun feels oppressive (very rare where I live). Otherwise, why not say "strongly", "intensely" or just "brightly"? Dbfirs 08:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• The use of heavily in this context seems odd to me, and I have never heard it. I would say "the sun shines brightly", or "the sun beats down on me" for stronger, oppressive sunshine. μηδείς (talk) 02:56, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I would use "heavily" like this: "The sun bears down on me heavily", rather than "shines". Still awkward, but not as bad. "Shine" and "heavy" don't make sense together, but other metaphores and terms do work. Mingmingla (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

bank up the grave mound with earth

Is "bank up the grave mound with earth" a proper collocation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.211.28 (talk) 07:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds OK except that if there is already a grave mound then the grave has already been banked up with earth. (To "bank up" is usually used for a less symmetric collection of earth than a grave mound, but perhaps I am being over-fussy?) Why not just say "augment the grave mound with earth"? Dbfirs 08:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Because augment is an odd word to use with earthworks. —Tamfang (talk) 03:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• A much more usual expression would be "shore up the burial mound with earth". μηδείς (talk) 02:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

a neighbor patient?

Can I say "a neighbor patient" if a patient stays next to me in a hospital ward? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.211.28 (talk) 07:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"A neighbouring patient" would be the usual way of expressing it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

... or "patient in the next bed". Dbfirs 09:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

a word in English for the classmate who shares a desk with me

Is there a word in English for the classmate who shares a desk with me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.181.58 (talk) 07:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Deskmate. Deor (talk) 10:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

eat congee or drink congee?

Which verb can collocate with "congee", "eat" or "drink"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.181.58 (talk) 07:58, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

If congee is a type of porridge, then you would eat it. --Viennese Waltz 09:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Whereas, like soup, you would apparently "drink" it in Chinese (喝, hē). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Use of enlist language word 'clicks' in American action movies

In several English language American (USA) movies, characters traveling towards or viewing a distant location or object refer to it as being < a nr of > clicks away' e.g. 'its 20 clicks away'. What does this mean? is it just a deliberate attempt by script writers to be obscure, or does it have precise meaning like 'degrees' (of the compass) or 'radians'? 10:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)86.133.237.208 (talk)

Usually spelled klicks, it's military slang for kilometers. See the second paragraph of Kilometre. Deor (talk) 10:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Much-used by some science-fiction writers... AnonMoos (talk) 10:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the first time I (as an adolescent) read it was in The Forever War, and I thought it might mean light-seconds! —Tamfang (talk) 03:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

This is sometimes used in normal conversation in Canada - no particular sci-fi or military association. I can only picture old farmers saying it though, so maybe it's a generational thing, or a rural thing...I certainly wouldn't normally say it myself. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Also seems to be used a lot by Australian cricket commentators when referring to the speed of balls bowled. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It's also become a feature of casual speech in non-cricketing contexts. We hardly hear people saying "kilometres an/per hour" except in formal-ish settings. It's usually just (sounds like) "120 kays" or "120 klicks". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes heard in the UK among hillwalkers and mountaineers. Although we're clinging to our Imperial miles as hard as we can, we've had metric maps for about 40 years now, and it's much easier to calculate walking times by Naismith's rule in kilometres. Alansplodge (talk) 21:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Foreign monarchs' names translated

I'm vetting the historical content of English-language subtitles for a documentary film that makes brief reference to King William I of the Netherlands as "King William the First." Thinking the Dutch spelling "Willem" might be more correct, I checked through the interwiki links here and found that most languages translate the name. Why is this? I'm accustomed to exonyms and localized spellings for foreign place names, but why aren't historical figures referred to by their "given" name as it appears in their native language? -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The main reason, I think, is that European monarchs often have cosmopolitan identities; there is a lot of mixing among royal families, and they usually speak several languages. They also usually have common Christian names that are easily translated into other languages. There are exceptions, though, William II of Germany is usually "Kaiser Wilhelm" (perhaps because of anti-German sentiment); the Ivans of Russia are usually that, and not John (because Russia is seen as exotic, and the name equivalence is not as obvious). Lesgles (talk) 15:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, I think the tendency to translate the names of foreign monarchs is much less for modern (say, 20th century and after) monarchs than for earlier ones. Nowadays we speak of Juan Carlos of Spain and Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, but if they had lived 200 years ago we would probably call them John Charles and William Alexander. I think the only monarch whose name is consistently translated nowadays is the Pope. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Into English, maybe. But check through the interwikis for Elizabeth II and you'll find plenty of Elizabeths - but also Alžběta, Isabel, Eilís, and Erzsébet. Even Prince George of Cambridge - the one born last year - is rendered as Jorge, Džordžs, György and Jerzy in different parts of Europe. I don't know why, beyond the vagaries of local custom. Kahastok talk 20:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

However, Džordžs is a phonetic transcription of the English plus a nominative case ending ("-s"), as opposed to a Latvian equivalent of the name (Jurģis or Juris). Latvian likes to adapt the spellings of foreign names on a phonetic basis, so that any Anglophone George is Džordžs in Latvian. This applies, to a greater or a lesser extent, for a few other Latin-written languages as well. --Theurgist (talk) 10:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

In English today we tend to take the view that a person's name has one true version, in that person's native language, and any other versions are just translations of the true name. That hasn't always been the case, though, especially in times when (if anything) the most official rendering would be the Latinized one. Even in English, I find that books more than 30-40 years old translate names even in cases where it now seems unnatural or jarring to do so. This is true not only for royalty. In some other languages it's still perfectly standard to translate names. If you look at the interwiki links on a Wikipedia article for Vladimir Putin or Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich you'll see very different-looking renderings for Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian. --Amble (talk) 16:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

There are many exceptions to Deborahjay's assertion; take for example Wilhelm II, whom I have never heard called William, although "Kaiser Bill" is still heard occasionally. Also Archduke Franz Ferdinand - "Francis-Ferdinand" would be decidedly odd. Despite what our article says, I have never heard of King Humbert I. It's true that we do say Nicholas II rather than Nikolay. Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Robert K. Massie regularly calls the Kaiser "William". I'm not sure if this is just following his usual practice of translating names, or if it's also because he's trying to emphasize the close relationships between the royals in the UK, Germany, and Russia. --Amble (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's an American thing. He's never called "William" here, as far as I know. Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Damn! I've just proved myself wrong. The Last Kaiser: William the Impetuous by Giles MacDonogh. Alansplodge (talk) 18:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

VPs

What's the difference between a vice-president and a vice president? The first sentence of vice president makes it sound like a WP:ENGVAR difference, but both spellings seem to appear in American and Commonwealth contexts. For example, the Oxford English Dictionary quotes one American source saying "He is charged with having been long intriguing for the vice presidency," and another American source saying "Suppose there should be three candidates for the presidency, and two for the vice-presidency." Is it perhaps something like ax/axe, which just doesn't have one correct spelling? 2001:18E8:2:28CA:F000:0:0:7A27 (talk) 20:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It varies from dictionary to dictionary. British dictionaries apparently prefer vice-president for all usages. Many American dictionaries prefer vice president. This is likely due to the United States Constitution, which spells the title of the U.S. government officer without a hyphen. One American dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary, has an entry for Vice President (capitalized), referring to the U.S. government officer, and a second entry for vice-president (hyphenated and lower-case), referring to all other persons with that title. Marco polo (talk) 21:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I suppose that without the hyphen, at a stretch one could interpret "vice president" as president of Vices. Mingmingla (talk) 01:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The use of hyphens evolves. Baseball was originally "base ball" and then "base-ball" before it became a single word. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

"I looked up vice in the dictionary, and I wouldn't wanna be president of no such goins on !" - Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies. StuRat (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Translation request - Chinese

Hi, I was hoping that someone familiar with the appropriate Chinese dialect could please help clear up some of the the content at The Adventures of Little Carp. There are some raw characters, and since it's a kids' article, someone should check that the names are all translated properly (and that we're not saying stuff like, "Little Carp was portrayed by the famous actor Giant Butt".) Thanks in advance! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Seems fine to me, at least based on the Chinese version of the article. I don't know what it means for a name to be translated properly--isn't one name as good as another? For example, I have no idea why 肥鲶鱼 (literally "fat catfish") is translated as Bogart, but it doesn't seem better or worse than Steven or George. --Bowlhover (talk) 02:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Russian Text

Hi,
Somebody dumped a massive amount of text in Russian (or another Cyrillic based language, but from the context of the message I suspect Russian) on my user talk. Google translate gave me a nonsensical result, so (as a non-Rusophone) could somebody please translate for me? Thanks!
Sincerely,
Cogito-Ergo-Sum (14) (talk) 22:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better for someone to do it as a Rusophone? —Tamfang (talk) 03:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A Russognostic or Russolector is quite enough here.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Here is the text. Раздувание ажиатажа вокруг национальности (наследственности, ДНК, религии,образе мышления) руководителя страны это неконструктивно. Грузины или Китайцы, евреи или чюкчи каждая нация имеет свои национальные особенности заложенные в наследственном аппарате (ДНК). Китайцы , предположительно, наследственно склонны к юмору , грузины к мужской гордости, а евреи к распознаванию чужих мыслей и желаний, впрочем , так же как и арабы, что позволяет удачно вести политические переговоры , торговлю , продавать и покупать выгодно, 1kg Ferei pour 225,- Euro. Для правильной оценки личьных качеств важнее воспитание. Политический лидер США , -прекрасный пример того .

Google Translate isn't as nonsensical to me. I get the impression that the other guy's saying that it's a bad idea to build your idea of cultural differences around nationality or the personality of the country's leaders. He then goes on to reject a few ideas, such as Jews being able to read other men's personalities or Chinese being inherently more funny. He concludes by using Barack Obama as an example of why личьных (privacy? The word's in the article ru:Музей личных коллекций, which Google renders "Museum of Private Collections") is as important as education. Nyttend (talk) 00:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

My knowledge of the Russian language is limited, but I found these clues in Wiktionary. Please see under "Declension" or "Conjugation".

wikt:вокруг ("around"), wikt:национальность ("ethnicity"), wikt:ДНК ("DNA"), wikt:религия ("religion"), wikt:образе#Russian ("image"), wikt:мышление ("thinking"), wikt:руководитель ("leader"), wikt:страна#Russian ("country"), wikt:это ("this"), wikt:грузин ("Georgian"), wikt:или ("or"), wikt:китаец ("Chinese"), wikt:еврей ("Hebrew"), wikt:каждый ("each"), wikt:нация ("nation"), wikt:иметь ("to possess"), wikt:свой#Russian (reflexive possessive), wikt:национальный ("national"), wikt:особенность ("characteristic"), wikt:в ("in", etc.), wikt:аппарат ("device"), wikt:предположительно "supposedly"), wikt:склонный ("inclined, addicted"), wikt:к ("toward"), wikt:юмор "humour"), wikt:мужской ("masculine"), wikt:гордость ("pride"), wikt:а#Russian ("but, and"), wikt:чужой ("foreign"), wikt:мысль ("idea"), wikt:и ("and"), wikt:желание#Russian ("desire"), wikt:впрочем ("by the way, however"), wikt:так же "likewise"), wikt:как#Russian ("as"), wikt:араб ("Arab"), wikt:что ("that", conjunction), wikt:позволять ("allow"), wikt:удачно (search: "fortunately"), wikt:вести ("to conduct"), wikt:политический ("political"), wikt:переговоры ("negotiation"), wikt:торговля ("commerce"), wikt:продавать ("to sell"), wikt:покупать ("to buy"), wikt:выгодный ("profitable"), wikt:для#Russian ("for"), wikt:правильный ("correct", adjective), wikt:оценка ("valuation"), wikt:качество ("quality"), wikt:важный ("important"), wikt:воспитание ("education"), wikt:лидер#Russian ("leader"), wikt:США ("USA"), wikt:прекрасный ("splendid"), wikt:пример#Russian ("example"), wikt:тот#Russian ("that", pronoun)

—Wavelength (talk) 01:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

личьных качеств seems to mean "of personal qualities". I think the last two sentences are "For a proper evaluation of personal qualities it's an important lesson. The political leader of the USA is a perfect example." By the way, it is not clear to me that the author of this is rejecting the idea that personality traits are connected to genetics. It all hinges on the meaning of предположительно, which according to my dictionary means "hypothetically" or "presumably". I'm not sure that we can trust Google Translate's "supposedly" to imply the author's skepticism. Really we need someone with a good grasp of Russian to say for sure. What time is it in Australia? Jack of Oz may be able to help. Marco polo (talk) 02:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Guys, we have fluent Russian speakers on this desk. You don't need to use Google Translate or post 100 links to dictionary definitions. A fluent speaker can give you a much more accurate translation with 1% the effort. --Bowlhover (talk) 02:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Good point. User:Ymblanter notified. Nyttend (talk) 04:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

My (non-professionsl) translation: Getting too much hype about ethnicity (heritage, DNA, religion, or the way to think) of a head of a state is not really constructive. Georgians or Chinese, Jews or Chukchi, every nation has its own national features programmed in the DNA code. Presumably Chinese tend to be humorous, Georgians tend to be machist,<--! No such word used, but the context is apparent--> and Jews are good in guessing of thought and desires of others, similarly to Arabs, which let them be successfull in political negociations, in trade, to buy and to sell with profit, 1kg Ferei pour 225,- Euro. To evaluate personal qualities properly one needs education.<--! Not sure what is exactly meant there.--> The US political leader is a good example of this.

Just to add that there are a lot of spelling errors in the text. The meaning is not entirely clear to me (they are obviosly trying to prove some point), but I hope there was some context to it which makes it more clear.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Is 225 € too expensive or too cheap for 1 kg of Ferei? I didn't know that lamps are sold by weight.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)