Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 October 24

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October 24

V & W

I have just been watching an episode of QI, and they were talking about speakers of (other) Germanic languages mixing up 'v' and 'w' when speaking English. I spend a lot of time with speakers of Germanic languages (job, friends, etc.) and I have noticed this phenomenon many, many times. I thought it was just something that the particular people I was mixing with had a problem with. "Vere is the willage?" ("Where is the village?") would be an example. The program has confirmed for me that this is common. Why would this happen? Has anybody here also experienced it? I am not making fun of Germanic speakers, but I just find it quite interesting. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 05:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I think part of the problem is hypercorrection. —Kusma (t·c) 05:40, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

German does not have a /w/ sound (although /ʋ/ is an allophone of /v/ in some dialects). Therefore it is likely that these speakers can't differentiate between /w/ and /v/, perceiving them to be the same sound. See also: Free variation.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 06:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Probably it's not so much that they strictly cannot perceive the difference, but the difference is not very salient to them, as one of the sounds has no function in German (or other Germanic languages, don't know what it's like there). Plus, the letter "w" regularly has the [v] pronunciation in German, and many easily recognizable cognates / translation equivalents have this letter in both languages, but are pronounced with [v] in German and [w] in English. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that's the case, Germans unconsciously tend to pronounce the letter like in their own language. For example, I believe, Russians have less problems as first "w" is not associated with anything in Russian and second "w" is usually transliterated as у "u", so if they say in Russian Uol Strit (Wall Street), they'd rather say in English [wol] or [u̯ol].--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm a native speaker of German (NSG) and have wondered myself. I don't think that "the difference is not very salient to them". You can test this by asking a native speaker of English to make a /w/–/v/ mistake while saying something. Ask an NSG if they noticed anything odd. I expect that even an NSG with only basic knowledge of English will immediately spot the mistake, and will have no problem producing the sounds in isolation, yet the same NSG will make /w/–/v/ mistakes hirself when xi speaks. I think this has little to do with perception; it's about phonotactics and articulation. It occurs in people who lack training in the production of sequences of many alien sounds in a row. Within a sentence, you have to twist your tongue to quickly switch from [v] to [ɹ] to [w]. The required brain-muscle coordination takes some getting used to. "The difference is not very salient to them" (or even "They perceive them to be the same sound") may instead explain mergers such as met–mat. Not sure if some of us even merge bed–bad–bet–bat to [bɛt]; I guess bad would get a long vowel and all others a short one with many speakers of German English. 82.83.85.21 (talk) 15:08, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my response was written rather hastily and late at night. The three responses above are much better. I was thinking more in terms of a monoglot, but the OP's question is specifically about English as foreign language. As 82.83.85.21 says, even with basic instruction, /w/ and /v/ would consciously be perceived as different sounds in isolation (although I still maintain maybe not as different phonemes by some speakers). Also speakers of languages/dialects where /ʋ/ is an allophone of /v/ may be using /ʋ/ for /w/ (i.e. "ʋillage") and we, as native English speakers not accustomed to /ʋ/ are hearing it as /w/.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 22:30, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

How do Germans say "Volkswagen"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

In German? [ˈfɔlksˌva:ɡən]. Written "v" is normallyf [f] in native words, though [v] in some loanwords. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:20, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That's what I suspected. So would an actual German sayin English "Vhere is ze willage?" or would it be more likely "Vhere is ze fillage?" (Or however they would approximate our "th" sound). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We don't do the "v" -> [f] thing as in your "fillage". The thing is, this works more on the spoken than the written level, and the phoneme distinction between /v/ and /f/ is quite solid in German, so we wouldn't confuse those sounds when we hear them in English. [v] and [w] are confusable because they aren't a phoneme contrast in German; [f] doesn't play into that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:53, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

We do have final devoicing, however, so (ha)ve becomes [(hɛ)f]. Wiss vawious welatet ent unwelatet changess, "Where is the village?" might become some-sing like [wɛɐ̯ ʔɪs zə ˈwɪlətʃʷ]. 82.83.85.21 (talk) 15:21, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, you heff me rollink on ze floor. μηδείς (talk) 18:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

While keeping a final [ŋ] as such is hard to master for some nationalities, I'd think that Germans are good at not turning it to [ŋk], because they have it too. --Theurgist (talk) 02:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but maybe Medeis pronounces rolliŋg not rolliŋ and he thought "Germans final devoice" so... :) But No but there are places in the US where final ŋ is pronounced ŋg are there not? Contact Basemetal here 03:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

No, my use of rollink was a mishypercorrection. But they do say Lɔŋg Island in parts of Long Island, especially among Jewish and Italian residents of Nassau County, which borders Queens. See Lawn Guyland. μηδείς (talk) 17:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

I was assuming as much :) Maybe it's clearer with "No but". And thanks for that link. I'll have a lot of fun chasing the ŋg in the speech of the people listed in the Notable speakers section. This requires paying attention as not all of them have that in their speech. Contact Basemetal here 18:49, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

(Undisembiggening, since this is no longer joking) I have never in 3 decades heard Lawn Guyland in NYC, although I did meet a girl in corporate training from Long Island (Nassu County, NY) and originally from Queens who had the [ŋg] and in college I knew two girls from Nassau County who suffered from [ŋg]. (of course I spend 99% of my time in Manhattan or the Bronx, and this is likely a Brookly/Queens thing.) I can't say as I've ever actually heard it on Seinfeld, but the woman who Jerry and Elaine mocked for saying "You hafta see the bay-bee" typifies the accent, although it may be an actor's affectation. μηδείς (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

This one? Contact Basemetal here 21:43, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and the mother does say, "Why did it take so long for you..." but (1) it's not prevocalic, so it's hard to judge, and (2) the accent is hugely exaggerated and probably affected. In any case, one gets the idea. μηδείς (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

English speakers are also known to switch v for f. Example: the proper pronunciation of "have to" is "hav-too", but when speaking rapidly, it often comes out "haftuh". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That example is a special case of phonetic assimilation that occurs because the sequence is so frequent. Native English speakers never turn "I have two hands" into "I hafta hands". This is more like the process that has created "would'ja" from woulld you. 21:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry: What are 'Germanic speakers'? It seems everyone immediately interpreted this as being 'German speakers' and the 'Shadow Tiger' who OPed and presumably knows what he meant seems to agree. But to me, if anything, 'Germanic speakers' would be speakers of Germanic languages, which also includes Gothic, English, Old Norse, Yiddish and so on. How many people use 'Germanic speakers' to mean 'German speakers'? Contact Basemetal here 15:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I meant speakers of modern Germanic languages, such as German, Swedish, Icelandic, etc. There are not many native speakers of Gothic or Old Norse these days.... And why would I 'seem to agree', considering I hadn't written an answer to the responses yet? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 18:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. You're right. Note that in my book English is also a Germanic language so English speakers would also be Germanic speakers. Obviously you excluded those. That and the fact that all the responses concentrated on German made me wonder if there was some terminology somewhere I was unaware of. Contact Basemetal here 18:35, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Fixed my original post, just for you. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 21:23, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

"W" in English and "W" in other West Germanic languages are in a certain sense false friends, for English preserved the old sound /w/ from thousand years ago, whereas German and Yiddish shifted the sound from /w/ to /v/, Dutch to /ʋ/ or /β/ and so on, but both retained the spelling "W" (see for example Low German and Dutch de:Waterkant). The speakers of the other West Germanic languages with English as a second or third language will pronounce the letter "W" as in their mother tongues. This might result in /v/here is the /v/illage. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This reminds me of how those blasted Cockneys do similar things. Indeed, old Cockney speech once did confuse /w/ for /v/ (as is still seen today in Bermuda), just as they foolishly confuse /θ/ for /f/ and /ð/ for /v/. And, if I do recall, some Cockneys also final devoice, producing such phrases as "Vas/Das qui' sumfink, innit?" I wonder if this has to do with the stark immigration to London, or rather to a general process of linguistic simplification. Hmm... Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 19:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

We Germans are certainly guilty as charged of this kind of hypercorrection, but German w is for many speakers more like a labiodental approximant [ʋ] than a fricative [v], so the confusion is understandable. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2014 (UTC)