Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 October 7

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October 7

"in the name of public order"

In the Luis Buñuel article we read "The film was banned 'in the name of public order'", what does it mean? ThanksWikireader newbie (talk) 01:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Reading what's around that statement, it appears that it was banned because its exhibition had triggered rioting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

You are right, Bugs, assuming that it was in the US. I suspect it was banned under Franco, and "in the name of Public order" most likely means "to fit our puritanical religious views". μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

You just couldn't leave it alone, could you? "I suspect" has no place on this RD, and nor does your final worthless comment. --Viennese Waltz 08:20, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Why, happy Tuesday, VW! μηδείς (talk) 16:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Searching in Google Books on the movie's title and the words "public order", I find that this happened neither in the US nor in Spain, but in France. The Wikipedia article on the movie says the same. I leave it for someone else to edit the Buñuel article to say so. While it's irrelevant to the movie, though, Medeis is correct to describe the Franco regime as puritanical: see Francoist Spain#Catholicism. --174.88.135.222 (talk) 16:44, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Of course, only in the extended meaning of "puritanical", the literal meaning being very much not catholic. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:21, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Correctness in English grammar?

Is the following sentance correct in English grammar?

"Could anyone tell me what application does this screenshot seem to be captured from?"

- Justin545 (talk) 02:08, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Your sentence is comprehensible (although "seems" needs a final ess, instead of "does"), but, "Could anyone tell me which application this screenshot is captured from?" is better. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC) see below.

No, it's not correct. This is an indirect question, so the correct grammatical form would be:

"Could anyone tell me what application does this screenshot seems to be captured from?"

Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Does it mean the following sentance is correct when it's not an indirect question?

"What application does this screenshot seem to be captured from?" - Justin545 (talk) 03:21, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

That is correct. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:28, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It's quite odd pragmatically, though. It's like saying, "I've lost my keys, has anyone seen anything that seems like them?" μηδείς (talk) 03:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that odd. You can't tell the source of a screenshot for sure, but it might strongly suggest some application, and you might even have reason to believe that it suggests some application but not know which one. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 04:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I think JerryFriedman is right, actually i've got the answer here (titled "Who can identify this application?") - Justin545 (talk) 08:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The original is grammatical, just unidiomatic, because we normally use the simple present "seems" in questions of that type, but the emphatic "does seem" is also possible. In particular, someone might use the emphatic in a context like this:

"This screenshot seems to be captured from Google Maps."

"No, it's not from Google Maps."

"Is it from Apple Maps, then?"

"No, it's not Apple Maps either."

"Well, could anyone tell me what application does my screenshot seem to be captured from?"

I would actually prefer "to be taken" or "to have been captured", as I think "taken" works better as an adjective then "captured" does, but I think it's a matter of taste. --174.88.135.222 (talk) 16:51, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Never think of emphatic usage, so there are so far two interpretations of the does in the sentance. In Dominus Vobisdu's interpretation, it's grammatically wrong (indirect question). But in 174.88.135.222's interpretation, it's grammatically correct (emphatic). However, the semantics is different. - Justin545 (talk) 01:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Some self appointed grammar police will tell you to not end a sentence with a preposition, so a preferred form might be:

"From which application is this screenshot captured?" HiLo48 (talk) 03:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw this kind of shift several times, but could someone please tell me why the preposition should be moved? What's wrong ending with a preposition? - Justin545 (talk) 08:39, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, but somebody invented a zombie rule about it a couple of centuries ago and know-nothing pedants have sporadically insisted on it ever since. Yes I do realise that link is to a blog and would not be acceptable as a reference in an article.--ColinFine (talk) 09:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 10:53, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Informally it's fine, with a comma: "Could anyone tell me, what application does this screenshot seem to be captured from?" The second part is not validly a subordinate clause; but we can parse it as two separate questions, one introducing (or framing) the other. —Tamfang (talk) 05:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Didn't think of that before, but comma is so versatile in English... - Justin545 (talk) 08:50, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Second to the last, third to the last, fourth to the last...

The word "ultimate" usually means "final" or "last". The word "penultimate" usually means "second to the last". What are the words for "third to the last", "fourth to the last", "fifth to the last", et cetera? 140.254.227.101 (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The word ultimate means "final" or "last"; the word penultimate means "second last"; the word antepenultimate means "third last"; the word preantepenultimate means "fourth last".

—Wavelength (talk) 16:20, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

And here's a page on the whole business, including two suggestions that have been made for a word meaning "fifth to last". Deor (talk) 17:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

This is one of those awkward questions where the words ultimate, penultimate, antepenultimate and preantepenultimate have clear, cross cultural meanings, but the other structures differ between UK and US English. For example, my impression is that "penultimate" means "second last" in UK English, but "second to last" or "second to the last" in US English. HiLo48 (talk) 17:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Or "next to last". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:13, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Too many different ways of saying the same thing, all dependent on where you learn English. HiLo48 (talk) 17:26, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe so, but they all do mean the same thing. Whether you call the cover over a car's engine a "hood" or a "bonnet", it's the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:31, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard "second last" in British English. Not sure I've ever heard it in any kind of English. DuncanHill (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Never heard of it. Alansplodge (talk) 16:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Really? It's common in Australian English. HiLo48 (talk) 17:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Probably short for "second to last". Haven't heard it in American English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:36, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Or "second to last" is long for "second last". It's all a matter of perspective. HiLo48 (talk) 22:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

In the US, a gingrich is sixth to first. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Duncan, I googled "he came second last" and got 219,000 results, the first of which is this article from the Telegraph (UK). What would you normally say or expect to hear in BrEn instead of "second last"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:44, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I would expect "last but one" or "second to last" or maybe "next to last". DuncanHill (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. I agree with HiLo48 that Australians always say "second last", "third last" etc, and anyone injecting a "to" would be looked on as being either a foreigner or someone who's been unduly influenced by American culture. I thought we were on the same team as the British on this matter, but I take your word that that's not so. I wonder what the British author of this novel was thinking. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:02, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

As she live in Australia, and the book is published in Australia, perhaps she has adapted her style to the local market. DuncanHill (talk) 00:26, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Australian usage seems to be out on its own here, but "second-last" was formerly fairly common in British English. Most British people seem to prefer to insert a preposition instead of the hyphen these days. Dbfirs 13:03, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

We do without either a hyphen or an interloping preposition. I wonder why the British have gone counter to the way of economy. Is it a transatlantic influence? And if so, I wonder why Australia has remained immune to it (technically, it would be a transpacific influence in our case, but let us pay that no mind). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:27, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I think we prefer clarity over economy. The words second and last next to each other set up a contradiction in my mind because the position "second" on its own always means second from the beginning. Dbfirs 21:40, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Second to last is the usual American English expression; second to the last is much less common. Second last just sounds wrong in American English. Marco polo (talk) 20:22, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

You can see a graph of relative frequency on the Google Ngram Viewer.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

"Second from last" is a common construction in the UK - see Second from Last in the Sack Race by David Nobbs - but "second to last" is used too, perhaps equally. Alansplodge (talk) 11:43, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The Google Ngrams do seem to suggest that second last was once the standard form and that second to last is the innovation (only becoming dominant in American English in 1980, and still less used than second last in British English, despite the preferences of our British colleagues here). The OED in fact defines penultimate as "Last but one in a series of things; second last." Second last also agrees with other "second + superlative" constructions: second best, second oldest, second greatest. That said, second last still sounds the most natural to my American ears. It may have arisen in analogy to second to none. Lesgles (talk) 19:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

"Second last" or "second-last" sounds the most natural to this American too, and "second-last" looks the most natural. If you put "second-last" into the ngram result for American English, "second to last" still passes the combination a few years later. Get off my lawn! —JerryFriedman (Talk) 22:41, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Second last sounds weird to this American. So what would "first last" be? The same thing as just "last"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Oops, I actually meant that "second to last" sounds most natural to me, but now that I've turned it over in my head, "second last" sounds fine too. "First last" is unnecessary just like "first best" is unnecessary. Lesgles (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

A friend of mine in elementary school (c. 1970) said "first to last" for "second (to) last" and thought his expression was the only one that made sense. He was from Massachusetts. Otherwise I've never heard "first last" or "first to last". —JerryFriedman (Talk) 17:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Is there a Wheelock's English?

I have a friend who is a fluent but not perfect or native English speaker who is majoring in (American) English at an Hispanic university. I'd like some suggestions of what would be very good references in either English or Spanish that might assist this student. I have already suggested a copy of the Merriam-Webster Rhyming Dictionary. Can anyone else suggest grammars, thesauri, etc., that I should recommend to this student? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 18:37, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

See Common Errors in English Usage.—Wavelength (talk) 18:57, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

'Tutor Mike' might be useful (or perhaps more 'interesting' than useful). Online:[1] –and, there's an app for that:[2].  —71.20.250.51 (talk) 19:34, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I should have made it clear that this user can only profit from files, not apps or websites. I have to be able to cut and past or attach a normal file type. The best help is in book form, which I will search for as a pdf or text or word file. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:03, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

This list of ESL resources might be useful (see table: ESL Book Categories): ESL Books Guide —E.g.:

• [editorial director, Della Summers] (2002). Longman language activator : helps you write and speak natural English (2nd ed.). Harlow, England: Longman. ISBN 0582419522.

—71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2014 (UTC)