Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 6

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April 6

Is halbschwul cromulent German?

I used the term with a native German speaker in the 80's and it caused quite a bit of amused laughter. Is the word in actual usage, and if so, is it of recent origin? (PS, I looked here, but it doesn't seem authoritative.) Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, as with many compounds in German, it's the kind of cromulent word anyone can form, and many people have, but I wouldn't say it's received a huge amount of traction in any of its possible meanings (bisexual, lame, ...). One old(er) occurrence I spotted was in a 1970 poem titled "Rexona + HNO3 = Österreich" by Salzburger lyricist Hannes Stiegel; the word "halbschwul" occurs between "Mozart" and "Dorian Gray". ---Sluzzelin talk 11:41, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Germany word "halbschwul" means "half gay" or "semi homosexual"[1], assumed of meaning "bisexual",[2][3] also used for Mobbing (Bullying)[4], not listed in Duden. Appears to be a neologism, but has many hits in web search. In South west German dialect "Swabian" the word "half" also is used in an offending way for incomplete things in the meaning of worthless due not finished, usage would be used to emphasize offendings. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 01:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

How did French lose phonemic stress?

The French language seems to be the only major language in either its linguistic grouping or its geographical region not to use stress distinctively. That is, a French utterance may sound to an Anglophone as though the syllables are unequally stressed (usually, but not always, an Anglophone listener will report that the final syllable is stressed). However, this difference is not used to distinguish among meanings, and French speakers generally do not perceive stress as a category of spoken French at all.

How did that come about? Is it known when it happened? Say, did Old French have distinctive stress? --Trovatore (talk) 05:11, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Of the standard Romance languages, French has the most altered vowel system and the largest number of vowel phonemes. Before distinctive stress was lost, stress caused conditioned (contextual) sound changes based on various factors, one of which was stress: Phonological_history_of_French#Table_of_vowel_outcomes.

Once the new vowel sounds acquired distinctive phonemic status, rather than allophonic variant status, stress no longer bore the burden of making words distinct, since the new vowels took that role. Stress didn't disappear, it simply became predictable on all final syllables except those ending in schwa, and word initial for emphatic statements. Basically, stress evolved into vowel coloring. μηδείς (talk) 06:22, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, the "last syllable" claim is one I've heard, but it is at variance with my own perception of native-speaker utterances. For example, la Grande Arche de la Défense sounds to me as though stressed on Dé. I agree it's a good rule of thumb, though.

That's a detail, though, and thank you for the information and the link. --Trovatore (talk) 06:29, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I cannot definitely say how all Anglophones perceive French but it is a general knowledge of experimental phonetics, that French has distinctive phrasal stress. The French indeed raise their voice on stressed syllables. But speakers of languages like English or Russian raise their voice much more, so for them French may sound monotonous or "without stress".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:53, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

As for why and when it happened. I do not remember exact dates (I must check against books[5][6][7]), but it happened like this: Latin words had stress in penultimate or anti-penultimate syllables, Vulgar Latin inherited this feature but in the "Gallic region" post-stressed vowels became very weak and during the time they disappeared altogether. In some Gallo-Romance dialects (like Occitan), they still pronounce their final vowel (rose is /ˈrɔzə/ not /ʀoz/).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:11, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Thai question

I recently came across this text, apparently in Thai:

• Dee jai tee Santa Claus jak Finland masa nuk kab rao!
• Wow! Santa rong plaeng na ruk jung!

What does it mean? JIP | Talk 18:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I read the first line as:

• ดีใจที่ Santa Claus จาก Finland มาสนุกกับเรา -- "(I'm/We're) happy that Santa Clause left Finland to come have fun with us".

In the second line, without context or being familiar with the original writer's transliteration idiosyncrasies, it's hard to say what "rong plaeng" could be. The first (and most obvious) thing that comes to mind would be ร้องเพลง ("to sing"), but I would expect something like rong phleng. However if that's the case, then it would appear to read:

• Wow! Santa ร้องเพลงน่ารักยัง! -- "Wow! Santa still sings lovely!" (again hard to tell without context but probably meant either sarcasticly or playfully).--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 21:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

The first sentence should be more like, "I'm (/We're) glad that a Santa Claus from Finland has come to have fun with us!" The last word in the second sentence is จัง, not ยัง, so the translation would be, "Wow! Santa sings so lovely!" or, more approximately, "The way Santa sings is so cute!" --Paul_012 (talk) 19:41, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, จัง makes more sense than ยัง. I was thinking maybe the original writer wasn't a native Thai speaker and trying to make sense of that. I'm so used to IPA, I saw a "j" and I guess assumed "/j/" without even thinking. For the first sentence, that is indeed another possible meaning. Both meanings are possible. Without context, จาก by itself can be ambiguous that way. Either way, though, the intended sentiment is adequately expressed.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 00:31, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Abbreviation minefield

Why are "Pakis" and "Japs" considered racist abbreviations but "Brits", "Yanks", or "Aussies" isn't? NoWordOfALie (talk) 20:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Because ethnic slurs aren't always logical. What matters is often the intent. The word "Jap" was often used to denigrate Japanese people, and so it is offensive to many people. Our article shows some cases where it is intended to be used neutrally. Same goes for Paki - it is used a pejorative in a way that "Aussie" usually isn't. Also note that many Australians call themselves "Aussies", but Japanese people do not call themselves "Japs" - It's generally polite and acceptable to call people what they call themselves, but again, it's not always logical, and only very few (if any) people can use the n-word without it seeming a slur or insult. You may be interested in reading Nigger#Intragroup_versus_intergroup_usage and the different article and word "Nigga". This should help give you an idea of the subtleties involved in determining when words are offensive. Sadly, Word_taboo is a pitiful stub, and not very helpful.

More generally, have a look at List_of_ethnic_slurs - many are a bit confusing if you are unfamiliar with them, and wouldn't necessarily seem offensive unless you knew the history and context. For instance, if a Brit called me a "seppo" - I may not understand that it was intended as a slur against Americans, but I might be able to get the idea if it was said in a nasty tone, in the middle of an otherwise rude or derogatory sentence. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:31, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

N.b. Yank isn't totally safe either, it can be used as a pejorative term, even though many people may call themselves or their sports teams that. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

That's actually how it started, as a British slur against the American colonial rebels. We wore it like a badge of honor and still do, at least in an international context (not so much within the southern U.S. though). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:02, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

In the UK yank is pretty much exclusively derogatory. Of course can also be expanded to the classic 'septic' 82.21.7.184 (talk) 22:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Septic = septic tank = rhyming slang for Yank. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

That's kinda shitty... --Jayron32 01:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't even want to get into the kind of rhyming slang one could invent for "Brit". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Only try to learn British rhyming slang if you have years to spare, Baseball Bugs. It's a whole new language, and there are different types. It's constantly evolving, and we have our own version here in Liverpool. Cockney is the most famous one, but different areas have their own. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 04:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Some people will read racism into any abbreviation - even the alphanumeric sequence H982FKL Top Gear controversies#Cultural mockery. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 10:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Get off my lawn

Is there a specific word in any language for the metamorphosis of "boy who played on the old mans lawn" into old man who shouts "get off my lawn!" at kids? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.217.195.88 (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Not a single word, but the phrase "circle of life" comes to mind. Also, if you want to get philosophical/metaphysical, then maybe the "eternal return".--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 00:32, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what you're asking but The old man told the boy to get off his lawn is indirect speech, while The old man told the boy, "get off my lawn" is direct speech. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't know that they used any particular word to describe it, but a supernatural twist on this idea was the core of Spur of the Moment (The Twilight Zone). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

And more directly to the point is the song Cat's in the Cradle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The phrase that comes to mind is "I've turned into my mother !". StuRat (talk) 02:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the word is called "aging". We even have an article on it. Bus stop (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I've asked this before, but do kids actually play on other people's lawns in America? Here in the UK, we have walls to mark our territory and to keep dogs out. The Americans put a man on the moon, but can't build a wall to keep kids off their lawns? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 04:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Fencing off the front yard may be against zoning regulations depending on the locality, depending on a "friendly neighborhood" zoning policy. Some people are cranks, and were generally unliked by the other adults as well as children. (They got their doorbells rung.) For hide-and-seek we'd use the yards of about 45 houses in a 6 X 10 house area. The adults knew what we were up to, and didn't mind. At a certain threshold, most people fenced in their back yards, as they only had to fence one or two sides, once their neighbors had put up fences, but it wasn't out of disdain for the children. In any case, if you were on talking terms, even with old folks, you might still jump their fences. Also, the mail carriers do not use the sidewalk, they walk directly from front-door to front-door across the line. See Line of 1763. μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Our postmen/women have recently been randomly delivering letters to random addresses, because apparently being able to read is not a prerequisite for working for the postal service, so everyone in the four streets of my village is going out every morning to deliver the letters themselves. We have sent letters to the postal service to complain, but, of course, nothing has changed (maybe they can't read). Usually, they put their bikes (they use the pavement) at the side of one house's wall, then 'deliver', then come back and get the bike and cycle off. This is a security issue, because you could, theoretically, steal the bike and all the letters in it, because they don't lock them. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 05:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

For how long are they away from the bike? If they're just leaning the bike against the wall, walking up the sidewalk to the house, dropping off the mail, and returning, it doesn't sound like they're gone for more than 10-15 seconds. (I'm assuming that from wall to door is no more than 10-20 ft.) Locking the bike every time seems like a lot of effort to go through for such a small window of opportunity for thieves. Dismas|^(talk) 05:42, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Dismas, they would be olympic winners if they can drop off letters to 80 houses in four different streets each in 10 - 15 seconds. It takes them about 20 minutes. There are four cul-de-sacs in my particular area, so they park the bike outside our house, then deliver to all the rest. I think they do that because they know our house has CCTV cameras. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 07:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I misunderstood. I thought they were biking to each house. Not parking and walking to each house. Dismas|^(talk) 08:01, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

You'll see this on a few episodes of Keeping up Appearances, with the mailman biking away if he sees Hyacinth standing in the front of the house. μηδείς (talk) 17:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It's a common thing, yes. Many backyards (I guess you might call these 'back gardens') are fenced in for privacy or keeping the family dog from running around the neighborhood. But the front yards normally aren't. If there are several children in a neighborhood, they may run across the front yard of a home with no children to reach their friend's house on the other side. Also, as mentioned, games can be played across many yards. Dismas|^(talk) 05:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Hypocrisy" might be another word for this sort of thing, although the large gap in time may whittle away any traction that word might have in the described instance, and this would be a highly subjective interpretation of what has occurred over the course of a lifetime, and of course synonyms abound for "hypocrisy". Bus stop (talk) 10:25, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

When I was in Australia, in the suburbs there were no pavements and fences, just beautiful grass. That wasn't universal, because in the older streets (where I lived) there would be a garden gate with a mailbox beside it. I don't think anyone locked their mailboxes, and the postie didn't have to sneak through gaps in the fences to get from one front door to another like he does here. The sheep farmer would have a long daily trek to the mailbox on the boundary of his property and like as not when he got there it would be empty. The population has doubled since I was there so maybe it's all different now. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 11:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Where were you, exactly? It doesn't sound like a typical Australian town. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Even though New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the union, there are many more rural areas where there are no sidewalks, just lawns that come up to the tarmac roads. Sidewalks are mostly for public safety, to keep pedestrians off the lawn (which may be uneven) and off the roads with car traffic. At some point the town I grew up in started requiring the home builder to provide a sidewalk and the homeowner to maintain it (not shoveling it free from snowfall immediately after the storm ends is grounds for a fine) and repairing cracks, etc. Older parts of the town lack sidewalks, and are only required to install them if there is major reconstruction. The further you get into the NJ Pine Barrens the less likely you are to see sidewalks, (or people who own shoes). μηδείς (talk) 01:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

We do have an article, get off my lawn - doesn't really answer the question, but it does have info that might help people unfamiliar with the phrase. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

At Wikipedia we use an acronym. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Jack, it's like being out in the country here - there are no made - up pavements (and probably no street lights). You just walk along the grass verge. That was how, on the border between Spain and Portugal, you could tell which was which. The Portuguese municipality would have clean streets and no lights, the Spanish one would have lights and fly - blown streets. I see you live in a densely - populated part of the country, which might explain things. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 09:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I always thought that Portugal is a little more densely populated than Spain. Probably the reason is well-known Portuguese and Spanish mentality difference. The Portuguese, in spite of being Mediterranean, are more "introvert" like Northern Europeans.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

In England, we have Git orf moi land which is allegedly how visitors to the countryside are advised that they have strayed from a public footpath. Alansplodge (talk) 18:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)