Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 April 7

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April 7

Un-genericized words

A proper noun that gets turned into a common noun (e.g. escalator, thermos) is said to be genericized. Is there a term for words that have become so identified with a proper thing that they can no longer be realistically used in their common form? (Such as Holocaust or Titanic.)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 14:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

What I find interesting are words which go the other way - i.e. they can no longer be used in their original sense. For example, "tabloid" was originally a proprietary medicine but it's now a description of the format of a newspaper. The Nazi extermination of the Jews only became identified with the word "holocaust" many decades after the event. The word retains its other uses, as does the word "titanic". 87.81.147.76 (talk) 15:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Many" decades being about TWO, in the case of the Holocaust. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, because the word "genocide" was only invented after the Holocaust: its inventor thought that a new term was needed to describe hitherto unnamed phenomenon of the deliberate attempted extermination of an entire race/people, and defined it with the examples of the Nazi's attempt re the Jews and the earlier Turkish massacres of the Armenians. Some use the non-existence of the word at the time to argue that the latter was not genocide, as if a thing can't exist before it has been distinctively named. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

"Tabloid" comes from "tablet", which originally meant something you write upon.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

In Finnish, mokkula used to be a generic term for a black-box component that just does something and no one cares how. But then the ISP "DNA" launched a USB Internet adapter called "DNA Mokkula" with an aggressive advertisement campaign, and now when Finns hear the word mokkula, they think of the USB Internet adapter, nothing else. JIP | Talk 17:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The English word 'widget' means 'something which does something that you don't really understand and don't know the name for', but since Tetley's Bitter was advertised (with Jack Dee for having a 'widget' in the cans (which, in this case, was a small gas ball that makes the beer frothy when you open it), the word 'widget' now is very much associated with that. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 13:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

But I contend that if today someone described a large fire as a "holocaust" they would be accused of being insensitive. And something large described as "titanic" (as opposed to, say, "gigantic") would be presumed to be doomed to disaster.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 22:52, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Titanic (magazine), the Titanic Brewery, Titanic, Saskatchewan and Titanic, Oklahoma are all apparently doing OK. "Titanic struggle" is an oft-encountered cliché in contexts that have nothing to do with deep water, ships or icebergs. Mostly sport, in my experience. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

"PC" seems to have taken this route. It originally meant any personal computer. Then IBM called their version the "IBM PC", and since then people want to use "PC" to exclude other personal computers, such as a Mac. StuRat (talk) 06:12, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Nicolas Malebranche

Has the surname of the French philosopher Nicolas Malebranche some Italian roots?--Carnby (talk) 17:00, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Malebranche means "evil claws" in Italian and is the name of demons in Dante's Divine Comedy. This [site gives a little info, suggesting it was a French name with many variants (none of which seems likely). It could also belong to one of the Langue d'oc dialects. Or it might be the result of an ancestor changing the spelling to something more learned. During the renaissance, learned people sometimes adopted a Latinised, or Greek form. Melancthon is a Greek calque of The German Schwarzerd. Likewise, Copernicus's name was a change from the Polish Kopernik. μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Define the accent

I heard such a lovely accent many times, this particular guy seems to come from Bristol or the vicinity.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:40, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It's definitely not a Bristol accent: it sounds like Cockney to me. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:07, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Essex. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 18:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Right, I also thought that he came to Bristol from somewhere else, as I happened to hear Bristolian. But I have to admit I have some difficulty with differentiating English dialects (except of "North vs South" thing), one must live in England for a long time and/or travel there, I suppose, and I never did. :) How good scientific descriptions of dialects might be but they are of little use when you meet dialects in the wild. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Similarly impaired, dear Любослов, I onced asked for some pointers here: link to thread from 2008. Cannot claim I've become an expert, but it was a great starting point! ---Sluzzelin talk 10:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You've just refreshed my memory. I now remember there is a couple of dialect databases[2][3] (I believe they existed in 2008 as I ran into them around that time).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Lüboslóv Yęzýkin I have just texted him, and he says he grew up in Essex, but has lived in Somerset for 25 years. hope this helps. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 11:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Does it mean he has some influence from the West Country dialect?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

It's entirely possible he has added some of it in, just for comic effect. I lived in West Yorkshire for 6 years and I would (consciously and purposefully) occasionally switch from my native Liverpool accent to the accent of Leeds. I still occasionally do it now, 20 years later, though my main accent now is very close to RP and with a slight Liverpool/Yorkshire accent, so much so that when I meet new people in my home village, very often one of the first things they ask me is where I am from! KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 13:06, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Dispute re use of "had grossed" vs "has grossed" in film articles.

If anyone with a mastery of English grammar can weigh in here, it would be appreciated.

The issue is about whether to use "had grossed" or "has grossed" to describe ephemeral, evolving information in film articles, which we typically see in new releases formatted this way: "As of April 2, 2015, the film has grossed $100 million" vs "As of April 2, 2015 the film had grossed $100 million". I'd previously brought this up at the Ref Desk and though that I'd gotten a clear answer amid the many Yahoo! Answers responses, but the matter is still under debate. Learned comments would be appreciated at the open discussion. (I don't mind being wrong, but the Yahoo! Answers are driving me nuts!) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Isn't it a function of how contemporaneous the report is? If you're writing on April 2 about receipts to April 2, use the present tense. If you're writing later, use the past tense. 87.81.147.76 (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Using "had grossed" is the right way to do it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

The form has grossed implies "as of this moment" or "from the past until now". If you mean "as of a past moment" (such as April 2) or "from the far past until a point in the more recent past", you want had grossed. Marco polo (talk) 18:27, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

• Pluperfect. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I know it's probably not typically done this way, but if any of you could comment at the discussion, that would be ideal. I never learned all the fancy verb form names in school so when Medeis says "Pluperfect", I have no frame of reference. I know what I think sounds correct to my experienced ear, though many times I'm wrong. The issue I am having with it, is that by virtue of saying "as of moment X", that moment expires and is in the past and should be written phrased in the past, even if we're talking about something that happened today. An example I presented in the discussion had to do with ISIS. "As of December 31, 2014, ISIS has killed 3,000 people" doesn't make sense to me for inclusion in an encyclopedia, even if today were December 31, 2014. Anyhow, I'm rambling. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Try it this way. Check out this diagram:

Past............................................Present...............................................Future
  A                    B                           C

If you are comparing events at time A to time B, you would use "had grossed". If you are comparing time A to time C, you use "has grossed". So "As of 2010, the movie had grossed..." but "As of today, the movie has grossed..." I hope that helps. --Jayron32 19:35, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Given that any current date remains current for a maximum of 24 hours, the future arrives all too soon and that which you've just written about is no longer current information. It may be the latest available information, but it's still not current. The context is an encyclopedia article, which is not like a newspaper article, which is written as if it's being read on the day it's published (even though everyone knows old papers can still be accessed long after they're published). Encyclopedia articles are meant to be read by the readers of the future just as much as by the readers of today, and are written accordingly (this remains true even in cases like Wikipedia, which are being updated continuously; which is why it is never OK to refer to something happening "recently" around here). I'm reading this on 8 April, and for all I know the movie may have grossed another $20 million since 2 April. That is is why it must be "had grossed" as at 2 April. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:41, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese language help regarding the GPS shift problem in China

I've just created Restrictions on geographic data in China but I don't understand any Chinese, and have relied on the very few English sources, combined with a fair amount of Google Translation. Could some Chinese speaking editors review that article? Is there a better place to ask for help? Thank you, Dandv^{(talk|contribs)} 21:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC).

See Wikipedia:Translators available.—Wavelength (talk) 21:30, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Which Chinese sources did you use? It's pretty hard to say whether Google Translate gave you the right meaning without seeing the original sources. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)