Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 March 8
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < March 7 | << Feb | March | Apr >> | March 9 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
March 8
editApostrophes on references to family names
editI've seen in writing and on signs on people's mailboxes and front door the family name followed by an apostrophe followed by an s. For instance, "The Johnson's" or "The Peters's." Why is this done? Seems like a plural would fit more to refer to a group of people with the same last name, like "The Johnsons" or "The Peterses" than what looks like a possessive. 75.75.42.89 (talk) 01:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is a possessive: shorthand for "The Johnson's residence" (or home, house, etc.). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.13.204 (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Unless Mr. or Ms. Johnson lives alone and is wont to use the definite article when referring to himself or herself, the usage you cite would require a plural possessive (the Johnsons' residence, the Peterses' residence); so whichever way you look at it, "The Johnson's", etc., are incorrect. Either you've got greengrocer's apostrophes or malformed plural possessives. Deor (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- My bad. I should, of course, have written "The Johnsons' residence." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} [And yes, it is still me, on a different machine from Sunday] 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:54, 9 March 2015 (UTC)~
- Perhaps they are thinking in terms of the collective singular? I.E. without the "the". So just "Johnson's". It would be abnormal, yes, but I could see it working maybe kind of. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 04:09, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- More likely they just copied it from other people who got it wrong.
- Note that the correct usages on a mailbox and a front door are different. The sign on the door is identifying the house, which is the Johnsons' house, or for short "the Johnsons'". The sign on a mailbox is identifying who the mail is for, which is "the Johnsons", no possessive. (Of course, it'd be more usual to just say "Johnson", meaning anyone named Johnson who lives there.) --70.49.169.183 (talk) 06:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Disagree with the preceding, since the house is also where the Johnsons live; the mailbox is also the Johnsons' mailbox, and it is for the Johnsons' mail. Either form makes sense in either place. The answer to the OP's question, "Why is this done?", is simply that misuse of the apostrophe is widespread and these are two highly visible places where the error is not correctable by someone performing a "copy editor" function. No doubt the homeowners ordered the signs that way, and the companies didn't feel inclined to risk pissing off customers by correcting their errors. You could be WP:BOLD and black out the offending apostrophes, but don't be surprised if you get reverted (or shot). And don't edit war! ―Mandruss ☎ 10:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Fair point on the house; disagree on the mailbox. If it was a mailbox for one person, you would not mark it "John's". --70.49.169.183 (talk) 14:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- David Mitchell explains. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:28, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Disagree with the preceding, since the house is also where the Johnsons live; the mailbox is also the Johnsons' mailbox, and it is for the Johnsons' mail. Either form makes sense in either place. The answer to the OP's question, "Why is this done?", is simply that misuse of the apostrophe is widespread and these are two highly visible places where the error is not correctable by someone performing a "copy editor" function. No doubt the homeowners ordered the signs that way, and the companies didn't feel inclined to risk pissing off customers by correcting their errors. You could be WP:BOLD and black out the offending apostrophes, but don't be surprised if you get reverted (or shot). And don't edit war! ―Mandruss ☎ 10:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Unless Mr. or Ms. Johnson lives alone and is wont to use the definite article when referring to himself or herself, the usage you cite would require a plural possessive (the Johnsons' residence, the Peterses' residence); so whichever way you look at it, "The Johnson's", etc., are incorrect. Either you've got greengrocer's apostrophes or malformed plural possessives. Deor (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- Not a misuse, this is how we were taught back in the day to make plurals of words with no regular plurals. One's, 2's, ABC's, 1980's, there's, Johnson's, etc. Rmhermen (talk) 12:42, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- How were you taught to make possessives of those plurals? Johnson's's? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- The Bush family is referred to as the Bushes, as with the Clintons. We recently had the issue of the Angeloses. "Mom, Mrs. Angelos just invited me to stay for dinner. Is it okay if I eat at the Angeloses's?" μηδείς (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- How were you taught to make possessives of those plurals? Johnson's's? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:44, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
- You all fail Pedantry 101. Unless the Johnson family is claiming to be the only Johnsons in the world, their sign ought to read Some Johnsons', not The Johnsons'. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 18:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)