Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 October 3

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October 3

German physics text

An old German paper on vacuum tubes has the following sentence:-

Diese Bedingung gilt für den Fall des thermischen Gleichgewichts, wo die mittlere Energie der Elektronen (bei gegebener Temperatur) sowie der mittlere Elektronenabstand im Verhältnis zu dem eben definierten Strom i ihren kleinsten Wert haben.

Which I think translates as something like:-

This condition applies in the case of thermal equilibrium, where the mean energy of the electrons (at a given temperature) and the ratio of average distance between electrons to the plane defined current i have their smallest values.

"i" of course being the standard symbol for electric current.

What I do not understand is the inclusion of the phrase "eben definierten" / "plane defined" or "exactly defined". Is there a better translation? 120.145.35.164 (talk) 01:53, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

"Eben" can also mean "just", i.e. "a moment ago". So it means "just defined". Or it might actually be "oben" you're seeing, in which case it would mean "above defined". --Viennese Waltz 07:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

See the meaning of "eben" as an adverb in the wiktionary's first version (the newer revisions are too complex). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:23, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

„Sowie“ should be translated as “as well as”. --Rôtkæppchen68 21:49, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't really think it makes any difference. --Viennese Waltz 21:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

It improves style. --Rôtkæppchen68 00:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

No it doesn't. --Viennese Waltz 16:44, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, folks. I think "and" vs "as well as" depends on regional styles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.120.212 (talk) 01:48, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Fatherland/motherland and the grammatical gender of the name of the country

In some languages one's homeland is called "fatherland", in others it's "motherland", in some, both are used, but one is used much more frequently. Is there a correlation between this fatherland/motherland usage with the grammatical gender of the name of the country (if there is one)? 731Butai (talk) 05:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Not sure, but in the UK, both fatherland and motherland were used interchangeably before the Great War, when fatherland acquired Germanic overtones. In support, see these 19th century English hymns: "O Lord, stretch forth Thy mighty hand / And guard and bless our Fatherland" and "Blazoned on our country's banner England bears the knightly sign: / Lord our Fatherland empower that endued with strength divine...". Alansplodge (talk) 22:17, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Names of countries do not have grammatical gender in English. The only nouns that have grammatical gender are those referring to people (and some animals) of a specific gender. Even then, the only implication of gender in English is to specify the third person singular pronoun. Marco polo (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Interesting that you've never heard of nations or ships, Marco Polo. μηδείς (talk) 23:28, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

All Slavic languages have used the words "land" (zeml’a) for their country names, that is all Slavic countries have been feminine (compare Polska). Nevertheless, there are Slavic words that are from the "father" (otec) root (Russian otechestvo, Polish ojczyzna), and I cannot remember any from the "mother" (mat’) root. Old Russian "Mother Earth" (Mat’ Zeml’a) is rather two words and comes from paganic times, while "Mother Homeland" (Rodina Mat’), is rather a WWII (note that that war is known in Russia as Otechestvennya) Soviet propaganda invention (though not bad I'd say, as it resonates with the Russian mentality).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:37, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

And funnily enough, Polish ojczyzna means 'fatherland', but is feminine in gender. Polish also has the word macierz (likewise feminine), which in some contexts may be translated as 'motherland'. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:23, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

For example, the official motto of an association of ethnic Poles in Lithuania is Litwa – ojczyzną, Polska – macierzą ("Lithuania [is our] fatherland, Poland [is our] motherland"). — Kpalion^(talk) 20:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Same in French: remember Allons enfants de la Patrie. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

They just fudged that, because Allons enfants du Patrie wouldn't scan.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:44, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Pronoun type

There was a discussion in our local paper about the correct form for a sentence like "He was older than me/I". The paper had written "older than me" and was upbraided by a reader who claimed it should be "older than I", since this is short-form for "older than I am". That's obviously wrong, and I know that the "I"in "I am" is the subject pronoun. But can anyone tell me what the "me" pronoun is properly called, and fully justify why "me" is correct? Thanks.--Phil Holmes (talk) 11:52, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I would (naturally) agree with the newspaper's correspondent - "I" is strictly the correct pronoun in this sentence. See subject complement. "Me" is in the objective case, and (conventionally) the verb "to be" in English takes the subjective case. However, as you point out, most people would _say_ "He is older than me", even though it's technically in violation of the concords. Tevildo (talk) 12:23, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I personally would say "It is I" because, as you say, "to be" takes the subject. However, that's not what we have here: there's that little word than between the verb and the pronoun, so I don't see that the subject complement counts in this case.--Phil Holmes (talk) 12:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

A valid viewpoint, which is shared by Shakespeare and Dr Johnson - see than. However, "than" can _arguably_ be considered a conjunction rather than a preposition; I think that, rather than saying that the sentences are "right" or "wrong", we can say that "He is older than me" leaves the writer open to criticism from pedants, and "He is older than I" leaves the writer open to a charge of unnatural usage. "He is older than I am" (in my opinion) should keep both sides of the argument happy. Tevildo (talk) 13:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• But then people like me will complain that it's too verbose, as well as pandering to people whose ideas of correct usage are mistaken or out of date. In particular, they are under the delusion that "than" cannot be a preposition. Here are three dictionaries that list it as one, in each case with a usage note supporting the point. --174.88.134.156 (talk) 20:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Here's a post that cites some grammatical works on the topic. This is a much discussed question, and one can easily get a variety of opinions by Googling for "than I" "than me". Deor (talk) 14:05, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• See disjunctive pronoun. French uses moi in similar circumstances when "logically" je would be expected, and English has moved towards such a system. μηδείς (talk) 16:27, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Hasn't that always been English usage, though, back to Shakespeare and Middle English? Only the grammarians who wanted to remodel English on the pattern of Latin insisted otherwise? Itsmejudith (talk) 18:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you're right it happens in Shakespeare. I haven't studied Chaucer and I doubt there are any texts in Old English that reflect informal spoken dialog. I am sure there are much better experts here than I. μηδείς (talk) 00:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

1. "Than me" (pause)," than him" (pause), "than them" (pause), "than whom" (pause). As in "The person than whom - he is older - is I" (See also our article Ontological argument, indicating the classical statement about something "than which - nothing greater can be conceived"). Please note that the "than whom " is followed by a pause - because this pause is followed by an independent (internal) clause.
2. However: the sentence "He is older than I", is grammatically wrong; Just as the sentence "The person than whom - he is older - is I", is grammatically wrong.
3. However: the sentence "He is older than I am", is grammatically valid, because there is no pause after the "than I " (because the whole independent internal clause is "I am "); Just as the sentence "I know better - who cried yesterday - than who laughed yesterday", is grammatically valid, because there is no pause after the "than who" (because the whole independent internal clause is "who laughed yesterday ").

HOOTmag (talk) 09:29, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Not a native speaker here, but "I am older than she" sounds really awkward, and "I am older than her" sounds natural, so why would "I" be an exception?--Lgriot (talk) 16:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

That was my point, which seems to have been validated. "I am older than her" is correct.--Phil Holmes (talk) 17:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

It is most certainly not "correct", since her ≠ she is. You cannot start with the complete thought "I am older than she is," and replace she is with her. If you are taking a normal grammar test, your answer will be "incorrect". What your answer actually is is common, unremarkable, and unobjectionable or acceptable in most circumstances. μηδείς (talk) 17:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Nobody here has claimed that her ≠ she is. What was claimed, was that - the word "than" in expressions like "than her" - is a preposition, and this is exactly what makes the expression "than her" correct. See also our article Ontological argument, that indicates the classical statement about something "than which - nothing greater can be conceived" (Also the "than" ibid. must be a preposition). I have also explained above why both the expression "than me" and the expression "than I am" are correct, and why "than I " is incorrect. HOOTmag (talk) 17:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Since there seems to be still some confusion: than was a conjunction in Old English, originally the same word as then, arising from a relative or demonstrative use of that pronoun. Around 1560 (according to the OED), it began to be used as a preposition as well. In the eighteenth century, grammarians began to insist that it only be used as a conjunction (perhaps basing their opinions on Latin, which uses the conjunction quam). This became part of the traditional grammar which has been taught in schools and enforced by editors ever since ("than whom," which HOOTmag brought up, was accepted as an exceptional fixed construction). But modern spoken usage definitely seems to favor "he is taller than me," and so according to modern linguistics, that is correct too, at least in informal situations. Note that traditional grammar doesn't always require the subjective (nominative) case; it merely requires that the two members of the comparison be in the same case. This does provide a useful distinction: "I like her more than he" = another person likes her, but I like her more. "I like her more than him" = I like the woman more than the man. Of course, in most cases context makes it clear, even if you use than as a preposition. For more information, see the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, also the American Heritage Dictionary. Lesgles (talk) 20:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Old English does not permit "than whom" ("than which"), because it does not consider the "than" to be a preposition.

As far as any language permitting "than whom" ("than which") is concerned:

"I like her more than he", is an abbreviation of "I like her more than he does" (so the pause should have been after the "than he does" and that's why only "he" is the correct form); Whereas "I like her more than him", is an abbreviation of "I like her more than I like him" (so the pause should be after the "him" and that's why only "him" is the correct form).

Similarly, "He is older than her more than I ", is an abbreviation of "He is older than her more than I am older than her" (so the pause should have been after the "I am older than her" and that's why only "I " is the correct form); Whereas "He is older than her more than me", is an abbreviation of "He is older than her more than he is older than me" (so the pause should be after the "me" and that's why only "me" is the correct form). For the same reason: "He is older than me", is an abbreviation of "He is older than me (pause) - than whom he is older" (and that's why only "me" is the correct form). HOOTmag (talk) 21:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

The sole valid point in the last two posts which you have almost made is that than is coming to be treated as a proposition, although it is in fact, as Lesgles points out, a conjunction connecting two phrases, the second with the copula often omitted as understood. The non-existent back-formation "than whom he is older is a monster of your own creation. μηδείς (talk) 22:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Monster? What about our article Ontological argument, that indicates the classical statement about something "than which - nothing greater can be conceived"? Is "than which", in which "than" must be a preposition, a monster as well? Note, that another well known version of the well known expression mentioned above, is about someone "than whom none greater can be conceived". Additionally, John Milton wrote (in Paradise lost published in 1667) of Beelzebub "than whom, Satan except, none higher sat" - as indicated in our article Beelzebub. HOOTmag (talk) 22:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I am not inclined to address the grammaticality of incomplete phrases. That being said, the obvious proper formation is, "There is nothing which can be conceived which is greater than God [is]." No "whom"s need apply. μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

"Grammaticality"? So, was Sir John Milton (one of the greatest English poets) grammatically wrong?

Your ruling out the adjectival clause about God "than whom none greater can be conceived" - and your replacing it by the sentence (rather than by an adjectival clause) which states that "Nothing which can be conceived is greater than God", is like ruling out the adjectival clause about a person "of whom I'm afraid" - and replacing it by the sentence (rather than by an adjectival clause) which states that "I'm afraid of that person". To sum up: adjectival clauses, should neither - be confused with - nor be replaced by, sentences.

Anyway, can you now suggest another adjectival clause - describing God in that context of there being nothing greater than God (rather than in the context of God being greater than everything else), without using the "than" as a preposition?

Back to my original point: Just as the "than" - in the adjectival clause "God than whom nothing is greater" - is a preposition, so it is - in the adjective phrase "greater than God" - and in the adjective phrase "older than me". And no, Milton was not wrong... HOOTmag (talk) 07:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hoot you seem to be entirely unaware of the fact that grammatical in the way you are using it is the property of a sentence in the same way balanced is the property of an equation. Just as a variable may have a value, but is not balanced, a sequence of words may be English without being grammatically correct. "Is is" has no grammatical value, any more than "which men the gooses" does. But "It depends on what the meaning of is is" and "I don't know by which men the gooses were being given to the women on the train" are both grammatically correct sentences. You are making ejaculations, and then bolding them to further your point. But it just don't work that way here. μηδείς (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

See oblique case#English. I grew up learning that I was correct in these cases (see subject complement, also called predicate nominative). In fact, at least in writing, I continue to use nominative case in these situations. But as you can see in both Wikipedia articles, there is a fair amount of disagreement as to whether one must use the subjective case disjunctively or not. By the evidence, plenty of good writers seem to opine that one need not do so. My conclusion: take your pick. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:32, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

.

@Medeis, you haven't answered my question yet: Are you claiming that, the sequence of words used by the well-known English poet John Milton (in Paradise lost published in 1667) about Beelzebub "than whom - Satan except - none higher sat", is not grammatical? As opposed to what you attribute to me, I'm quite aware of the fact - that a sequence of words may be English without being grammatically correct; I'm just claiming that - the sequence of words about God "than whom none greater can be conceived" - is grammatical. HOOTmag (talk) 19:40, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Ansakit

What does 'Ansakit' mean on Tagalog? Google Translate gave me nothing! Thank you. --ℳoræsk (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Alexius08, User:Geraldinho108, User:Sky Harbor, and User:ZoneSeek (all listed at Wikipedia:Local Embassy) might be able to answer your question. Also, User:Geraldinho108, User:Obsidian Soul, and User:AlneltheGreat (all listed at Wikipedia:Translators available) might be able to answer your question.

—Wavelength (talk) 04:03, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Wavelength. This is a colloquial spelling of the term ang sakit, which means "(it's) so painful". --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 04:12, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

What Sky Harbor said. It's a colloquial spelling of "ang sakit" ("so painful"), which is an emphatic declaration of pain. Note, however, that there is a subtle difference between the meanings of "ang sakit" and "ansakit". The latter is a "playful"/"childish" spelling, which means it usually refers to mild physical or emotional pain, not actual severe pain. It's thus more akin to saying "Ouch!" when stubbing a toe. The more formal "ang sakit" is used for more serious situations.

Just a side note (you can ignore this part), "ang" is actually the word for "the" in Tagalog, when it precedes a noun. But when it is followed by an adjective/adverb root, it becomes an intensifier (roughly equivalent to the English "so" or "very"). Google Translate gets those kinds of sentence constructions wrong. For example, incorrectly translating "ang talino" ("very smart") into "the intelligence".-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 04:41, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Hung or hanged?

A friend maintains that, in terms of hanging as a form of capital punishment, one can be "hanged" but not "hung", since "hung" implies only suspension rather than execution. Please help resolve a fairly pointless Saturday night argument. Alansplodge (talk) 22:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Your friend is correct as regards traditional usage. As the original Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage succinctly puts it, "Past & p.p. hanged of the capital punishment & the imprecation; otherwise hung." Deor (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

(ec)"Hanged - put to death by hanging."[1] "Hung" as a word came along after "hanged", but "hanged" was retained in legal jargon. I like to compare the usage with what happens when a batter hits a fly ball that is caught for an out. Baseball jargon is that the batter "flied out" - one could argue that the ball itself flew out, but the batter flied out. One could say that the rope was hung on the gallows, and the man was hanged. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The traditional way to remember it is: "Pictures are hung, but men are hanged". JezGrove (talk) 22:30, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Unless you're Robert Mapplethorpe, in which case you can be really well hung. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Or the line from Blazing Saddles - Charlie: "They said you was hung!" Bart: "And they was right!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:17, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

It's twue, it's twue! - Rojomoke (talk) 09:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you all. Seen off again! Alansplodge (talk) 23:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Resolved

Hanged is past tense and is a mostly associated as a verb. It means to suspend or be suspended from a higher platform, to paste, to kill someone by rope, or to remain in the air. Hung is a past participle and is usually associated with an adjective. It can mean unable to agree on a verdict, emotional confusion, and delayed or detained. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hung Kmmi227 (talk) 19:25, 20 October 2015 (UTC)