Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 April 5

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April 5

German sources for Panama Papers article

If there are any German speakers interested in the Panama Papers current event, a fair amount of the reporting is in German and help with it would be welcome. There are some links on the talk page. Also, the reporters who worked with the source have written a book (in German) that will be available soon, and that will itself probably be an important source. It would be nice if someone who can read it got a copy. This has been a public service announcement ;-). Thanks! 173.228.123.194 (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

What does unjoined Arabic "feel" like?

I'm aware that Arabic script is always written joined up, with letter-forms varying based on their surroundings. But suppose that somebody "prints" Arabic one character at a time, unjoined, like this: ك ت ا ب. Imagine a whole book written like that. For a native speaker, would it be very difficult to read, or just slightly strange-looking? How would it "feel" to read such text? Equinox (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Would the words in this book have spaces between them?

Otherwise I don't believe it can be much more difficult. Notice that this is how words look like, when a text processing program fails. --Llaanngg (talk) 11:14, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker, but to me it looks bizarre and it is difficult enough even reading a few words like that. A whole book would be extremely irritating to say the least. It would be just as annoying a s r e a d i n g E n g l i s h t e x t w i t h a s p a c e b e t w e e n e v e r y l e t t e r. Incidentally I used to have this problem typing Arabic when using Microsoft Word on a Macbook, although they seem to have fixed it now. But sometimes it goes unnoticed and you see it on signs out in public...here is an example of unconnected Arabic text that made it onto the Monument to the abolition of slavery in Nantes in France. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:16, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-native.) The above example of English with spaces makes quite a close approximation, but not that close. It is annoying, yes, but at least it is readable, as readable as a text without spaces at all as it was usual in the distant past. And as well you might have seen somewhere that in East Asia texts in the Latin aplhabet are often ｗｒｉｔｔｅｎ ｉｎ ｓｕｃｈ ａ ｍａｎｎｅｒ.

But Arabic is much different. The Arabic script in general and the Arabic orthography in particular are quasi-hieroglyphic. Each word not only has its distinctive spelling, but its distinctive graphical look. Writing in the unconnected forms makes any text in the Arabic script more than annoying, but nearly unreadable. Yes, it would remain decipherable, one could still read slowly letter by letter. In some text editors there are problems with proper rendering of Arabic, so not only the letters are unconnected but words are written from left to right. I have had such an experience, and I can hardly explain it, but the closest word is "weird".

I think there may be another approximation. It is as if writing with Chinese characters, but splitting each complex character that is composed of two or more simple elements (>95% of Chinese characters are such) into those elements. E.g. 口丨人乚丿一丨 instead of 中华. It may be still decipherable, and I believe there are input methods which employ such a decomposition, but I doubt it is readable.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:24, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Note that disconnected writing is quite common in Arabic calligraphy [1] --My another account (talk) 14:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that image in particular, but typically even in calligraphy the letter forms are properly connected - otherwise you'd never be able to read it! Adam Bishop (talk) 22:46, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of familiar/unfamiliar. If you wanted to, you could raise someone to read KOI-8 with no effort. The fact is, however, that competent readers don't scan individual letters but rather ingest written text one word at a time or even one set phrase/collocation at a time, and this is true even of the Latin script. By a certain age you have a mental image of all such elements in your language, in every typeface, too. So I think unjoined Arabic is just as illegible as English would be if written in that N*zi German typeface, and Polish or Italian regardless which typeface (assuming one speaks neither), only more so. Asmrulz (talk) 05:17, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

In fact, that phrase in the calligraphic example is written with little joining (the very first words here).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to add that there has been an attempt to create a special typeface of the practically unconnected letters. Though it did not become widespread.[2][3]--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:37, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Irregular comparative and superlative

Besides good, well, much, more, bad, little, far, does any further adjective have an irregular form of superlative or comparative?--Llaanngg (talk) 00:42, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Tada. Henry^Flower 05:07, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Besides good, well, much, more, bad, little, far, and old (as people in a family, elder, the eldest), is there any other irregular adjective?--Llaanngg (talk) 11:02, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

There are just the six - good (better, best), bad (worse, worst), little (less, least), many (more, most), much (also more, most) and far (but bear in mind that there are two meaning of far, with different comparatives and superlatives: farther and farthest for distance, further and furthest for extent). 217.44.50.87 (talk) 14:02, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Old - elder - the eldest is irregular, isn't it? --Llaanngg (talk) 14:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Elder and eldest are marked as a tad archaic. Old-older-oldest is becoming more acceptable. So yes, the irregular form exists, but is not the ONLY such form. --Jayron32 14:58, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

The way elder and eldest are used today makes them simple adjectives rather than comparatives. When I refer to my "elder daughter" I am not actually saying that she is "elder than the other one" - and in any case, the word is derived from an obsolete noun, eld, meaning old age. 217.44.50.87 (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

@Llaanngg: You may have meant to list many instead of more. More is the comparative and most is the superlative of both many and much. There are also badly and fore. Note that some of these actually are, or could be, adverbs rather than adjectives. --Theurgist (talk) 14:17, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not as closed a set as that. "More" and "most" can be comparative and superlative for many words: many, much, some, etc. --Jayron32 15:00, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Some is defined as an indefinitie amount: more than some is still some; less than some is still some (unless it is none). If I had some money last week, and have more money this week, the actual comparative is with how much I had last week, not strictly speaking with some. 217.44.50.87 (talk) 16:11, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

How is "many" and "much" different than that? Many is still indefinite. If my chicken laid many eggs last week, and I say he laid more this week, I'm still comparing to whatever "many" was last week. Same with much. --Jayron32 19:15, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

He laid? You have one odd chicken there. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:38, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Don't make fun of his gender identity. Please give him the dignity of choosing his own pronouns. --Jayron32 01:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's then: good, well, much, many, bad, little, far, old, badly, fore?Llaanngg (talk) 14:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Is "badly" used as adjective at all? --Llaanngg (talk) 14:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Not in formal English, but in Scotland and northern England badly is an adjective meaning unwell, ill. D H Lawrence and Samuel Coleridge used badly as an adjective. Dbfirs 16:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

The technical term for this kind of thing is suppletion. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

suppletion is a particular kind of irregularity; "farther", "further", and "eldest" are irregular but not suppletive. There are also foomost superlatives like "southernmost", "uppermost" which have no corresponding comparative; and there are comparatives "other" and "rather" with neither absolute nor superlative. jnestorius^(talk) 17:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

The very fact that the word "other" may be followed by "than", does not prove it's a comparative, just as the word "different" is surely not a comparative - although it may followed by "than" in American English. As for "rather": Etymologically speaking - you may be right, but I suspect the word "rather" is unnecessarily a comparative - from a syntactical point of view, e.g. in expressions like "rather near" - i.e. "quite near". HOTmag (talk) 01:48, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

You could add some of the ordinal numbers. The Wiktionary page for English irregular adjectives redirects to a page on collateral adjectives, which says:

"Collateral adjectives are sometimes called suppletive adjectives or irregular adjectives because there are so few truly suppletive or irregular adjectives in English.(Examples of truly suppletive adjectives are the comparative forms good–better, bad–worse, many/much–more, few–less, and the ordinal numbers one–first and two–second. Examples of truly irregular adjectives are the comparative/superlative forms better–best, worse–worst, more–most, less–least, far–farther/further–farthest/furthest, and the ordinals three–third, five–fifth.)" Taknaran (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Drama- Vocal styles for audio-plays.

I will examine the article we have on various languages phonology, but I was wondering if any of the language specialists here had any immediate thoughts on what vocal style a 'maid' character in an amateur produced audio play should sound like.

In an earlier question I had asked about accented forms of English, but my initial thoughts about suggesting a French-accented maid didn't sound quite right when I ran it through the Synthetic Speech Generator I was using.

What accents or dialects would a maid character likely to have in either drama or comedy?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:20, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Maids and other domestics in England would have been from the working classes. See List of dialects of the English language and perhaps choose one from England associated with working classes. --Jayron32 12:42, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Is ShakespeareFan referring to Shakespearian times? There are audio resources on what Shakespearian English sounded like. Linguist David Crystal and his son did some YouTube videos on this, at The Globe, here. Also, a character described as a "maid" may be a young girl, a maiden, not necessarily a domestic servant. Even if it does refer to a job, it's not just dusting the china ornaments: cf dairy maid or bar maid. French maids became more common after the French Revolution and the resulting social dislocations, say from the beginning of the nineteenth century. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 14:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

I was referring to something more modern than Shakespeare, but thanks for the link.

Depending on context I have the following very rough 'maid' voice types, (and I should probably write some acting notes on Wikiversity depending on what comes out of the disscussion.)

• For obviously comedic purposes, there is the archetype Parisian(?) maid, "'ou 'as ze accent!, but can try tres harder for Madame!". Most likely to appear in a farce perhaps?

• British regional. - ( I'll see if I can get some back copies of Downton Abbey and see what was used in that.)

"I'm fully aware it still needs doin, Sir... But make no excuses shall I."

• A stage 'London'. - Which is not Cockney, and differs considerably from a modern London dialect in any event.

"I'm sorry Mr 'olmes', but the Master was most insistent about the matter..'

• Scots or Irish English. -

"You'll be requiring a jug, sir. The water does not reach 'bove the third floor." (Scots) "I'll be getting you a jug sir, The water does not flow to the third" (Irish)

If you want to provide further advice.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:28, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

So you are considering many different variants, and your "maid" is indeed a domestic servant. So far so good. Before we can advise "on what vocal style a 'maid' character" would use, it would help to know: 1) when is the play set? 2) where is it set? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:27, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Of the writing ideas currently under development.

i) A Ghost story set in the late 1940's, location to be determined but possibly an off-season hotel possibly somewhere in England. (M.R James used East Anglia extensively, but my thoughts were to suggest somewhere further north. This is set in the late 40's because the intention seems to have been to write in a similar style to radio-drama of the period, most of the online examples I could suggest for research tend to be US ones though. ( and thus are either New York (inc upstate), or California. )

ii) A farce (set sometime between 1960 and 1980), set in a tourist villa which has become inadvertently double booked. Matters are not helped by the first couple (Sam and Tammi), attempting to use the villa for an impromptu romance. The first couple is liberally minded, and thus a confusion arises when the second (conservatively minded) couple (Gerald and Rose) arrives to find the first couple in a passionate embrace, with Tammi in a costume! The second couple, mistake Tammi for 'staff' and Gerald begins to 'have strong words' with younger Sam about his "..life choices" Embarrassed Tammi, attempts to give a convoluted explanation to protect Sam, but which is interrupted when Arlette, who is actual resort staff arrives, complicating matters further...

Vocally, in "maid" terms there are 2 types, Arlette the genuine maid, and Tammi's 'staged' maid,

iii) The Vampire's maid. (Nominally a contemporary setting, but some of the tropes drawn on are from the Hammer/Amicus stable of the 1960's onward) This is essentially a pastiche/parody on the tropes in certain genres, so it's not necessary to get the voicing exactly correct. The 'maid' character here is in fact a male-crossdresser, but he is approached at a costume party he attended in drag, by a mature Central European lady, who 'understands..', and offers him the opportunity to be a "maid" for her. He accepts, but is puzzled as to why she is so liberal about it, or why she forbids her 'maids' from the East Wing...

(BTW: Is there another forum that this might be better suited to going into this in more depth (Wikiversity's Drama Faculty perhaps?) ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:51, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

For your scenario i) late 1940s northern England - how about a rural Yorkshire accent in the style of James Herriot's All Creatures Great and Small (film) or All Creatures Great and Small (TV series). -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:39, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Yeah... Was thinking the same lines, given Whitby's literay heratige. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 16:41, 6 April 2016 (UTC)