Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 April 20

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April 20

Solar eclipse of August 18, 1868

I tried to write down what King Mongkut has written in this letter: File:Eclipse 1868 Letter of Mongkut to Grehan.pdf. See file description. Andybody willing to look over it, correct mistakes, fill missing words? Thanks in advance. --тнояsтеn ⇔ 11:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

• That's what I've read:

Board the Steam Yacht
Royal Sovereign
anchored at ..... on
10th August 1868.
To Monsieur Amedée DeGrihan
Phra (a noble title)
the consul for Siam in Imperial
city of Paris in French Empire
18 Rue De Amsterdam called
Siamese consulate
My consul & intimate friend
left my home down to sea
French men of Sciences
Flerlin (actually Le Frelon?) from Saigon
various surveying & astronomical
that may we be dissapointed
as on several days last until
I have learnt there that
on land there
which are near to this place
so I fear lest many
if I would land and live
the French consul Monsieur ...
ordered to take several passengers
the vice Admiral

Шурбур (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I can fill in some of those blanks, Шурбур, but don't know if you'd let me edit your comment. Here's a version I encourage anyone to edit until it is correct: 174.88.10.107 (talk) 20:35, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

[first page]

Board the Steam Yacht Royal Sovereign anchored at Whaawan [Whae Wan, Whae Whan, modern Warawan village (part of the city)] 10th August 1868

To _____ Phra [a noble title] __________ Monsieur Amedéee Del_____

the consul for Siam in Imperial city of Paris in French Empire 18 Rue D'Amsterdam called Siamese consulate.

My consul & intimate friend After the day in which my last letter to you was dispatched from Bangkok I left my home down to sea and came here & arrived at ____ where we pointed out as the place of central line of the solar total Eclipse now getting near & where we have prepared for dwelling on Seeing the Eclipse as well as certain French men of Sciences came by the French Imperial man of war & a gun board "Flerlin" [actually Le Frelon?] from Saigon and placed their various Surveying & astronomical instrument

[second page]

for Seeing the Eclipse near to my place at only a few yards. I was Saluted with 21 guns on board man of war & treated with great respects by the French but I am sorry to see the sky was thickly cloudy day & night every day so we & those French men are fearing that may we be disappointed to see the most remarkable total Eclipse on 17th & 18th inst. for the sky being continually so cloudy as on several days last until the present day also I have learnt here that certain number of our workmen sent for preparation of our dwelling place on land here became attacked by wild fever usually occurring at Bourg ____ / Bang Tabhan gold mines which are near to this place at about only 25 miles so I fear lest many who are accompany me now may be attacked with such the Awful fever if I would land and live on ground of wild fever for several day so that I have

[third page]

resolved to retreat to be anchored at Phu Manaw near the town of Whaawan I will wait until the nearest day of the Eclipse the French consul Monsieur ____ will come down here on about 17th inst by board of our gun boat Impregnable which was ordered to take several passengers from Bangkok to be here. The commander of the French Man of war anchored here told me that after two month the vice Admiral De Grandier will return to Saigon. but this news were not mentioned in your letter privily or in very private written me by year relating to the intelligence of the said Admiral Grandier & arrival at Paris ____

I beg to remain your _______ ___________ _______ day of reign

Thanks so far. User:Deor improved the file description on Commons [1] and I tried to merge it with the proposals from above [2]. --тнояsтеn ⇔ 06:49, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Egg question

Is the phrase "as sure as eggs is eggs" really just a UK idiom, or also a Commonwealth one? I am assuming it's unknown in US? And is it "old fashioned" or just out of fashion? It seems it may be not even safe to use it in Britain. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Never heard it here in the US. Loraof (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Commonwealth? Yes, sometimes still heard in New Zealand, but usually: "as sure as eggs are eggs". It's not used as commonly as it once was, and could be considered to be disappearing as the older generations leave us. Akld guy (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, Wiktionary only gives the form with 'is' (as do other online sources), which is how I (in the UK) have always known it. I agree it's probably a bit dated. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I've (American) never heard it but would likely understand it in context. I've heard a number of other little "as sure as X is Y" type idioms before though not this particular one. One that comes to mind is "As sure as little babies wear diapers...". And Henry Blake used a similar construction in the American TV show M*A*S*H though I can't remember the exact quote right now. †dismas†|^(talk) 22:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I can assure you that, in the UK, we'd never put a chicken in a diaper. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The equivalent idiom in the U.S. is probably Does a bear shit in the woods? --Jayron32 01:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

The Corpus of Global Web-Based English [3] shows that "sure as eggs is eggs" has 15 cites in Great Britain, 2 in Ireland, 4 in Australia and 1 in the US. "Sure as eggs are eggs" is somewhat rarer, with 10 cites in GB and 4 in Ireland, none elsewhere. CodeTalker (talk) 01:32, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Ngrams give similar results. British English gives a range of about 1.5 x 10^-6 % prevalence, while American English is hovering around 7 x 10^-7 % prevalence, or roughly twice as common in British English sources. With these small of numbers, I suspect some sampling errors as well, this data is just above noise level. --Jayron32 13:48, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

"As sure as God made green apples, someday the Cubs will be in the World Series." -- Harry Caray. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

"Pigs Is Pigs". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

And from an old fast-food TV commercial about chicken nuggets: "Parts is parts." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

But oils ain't oils. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:40, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I was hoping to learn the genesis of this expression. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Never heard it in Canada (nor in US-based broadcasts). Matt Deres (talk) 14:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

It’s the title of the last section of the Genesis track Supper's Ready: see §VII: "As Sure As Eggs Is Eggs (Aching Men's Feet)" (20:51 - 22:54).--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 19:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Wiktionary (linked above by AndrewWTaylor) claims that it's a corruption of "X is X". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

The first cite in the OED is from 1699: "As sure as Eggs be Eggs". Doesn't this pre-date the common use of "X" in algebra? The expression was probably popularised by its use in 1857 in Tom Brown's School Days. The old plural of egg in the 1400s was eyren. Is it possible that this saying reflects the change to the new plural over a hundred years? Dbfirs 10:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

A is A. μηδείς (talk) 02:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)