Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 December 23

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December 23

背徳漢

Coming from Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Computing#kanjis.

What does 背徳漢 mean? Google translate suggests "Honorable man" which is surprising since the first part, 背徳, explicitly means immoral. Mũeller (talk) 06:26, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Appalling answers, Google translate is not reliable when it comes to Asian languages; some of the translation results have been manipulated on purpose. To answer the first part of your question from WP:RD/C: 德 is a Traditional Chinese character, while 徳 is a Japanese kanji (which originated from Chinese characters). They are the same characters with the same meanings, just different system. As for the second part of your question, "immoral" is correct, as 漢 refers to "man": this is a Japanese term (which is why Google translate Chinese doesn't work here; although the term is almost never used), but like all Japanese terms, has its origin in Chinese. Alex Shih (talk) 06:39, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Except those of exclusive Japanese origin and written in hiragana. ;) SSS (talk) 14:08, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

That's a different story that would need to be elaborated to avoid misconception. In short, the story of kun'yomi and on'yomi. Alex Shih (talk) 15:48, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Why is he "Goethe" and not "Göthe"? It's not the fault of anglophones mangling an ö original; his German article is also "Goethe". Nyttend (talk) 17:00, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

If you don't have an umlaut on your keyboard you may follow the vowel with "e". 92.8.223.3 (talk) 17:03, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Apparently, the grandfather, de:Friedrich Georg Göthe changed the spelling of the name when he became a citizen of Frankfurt in 1687. Others ascribe the change to the father, de:Johann Caspar Goethe, as mentioned in a footnote of :de:Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. The "why" may be hard to answer; possibly the spelling "oe" held greater prestige or something. However, at the time German orthography was still somewhat fluid, and even during Goethe's lifetime works of his were published under "Göthe". It is also worth noting that the umlaut was printed as a small "e" on top of the main vowel in the 17th century. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:20, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

In Frankfurt dialect, so it seems, Gothe means "godfather". It has been suggested that the surname got changed "in order to get rid of the ludicrous associations excited by the signification of the name". I don't know, maybe my sense of the ludicrous is faulty. --Antiquary (talk) 18:58, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Not directly related, but maybe embedding: Spelling variations of German names are abundant in history. Karl Benz changed the first letter of his name to C, probably just because it was en vogue at the time. Franziska Donner amalgamated her name and the Italian Francesca to Franzeska. Alois Hitler used a completely new spelling for his family name. --KnightMove (talk) 08:53, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

This is not peculiar to German: [1], [2]. 86.169.56.46 (talk) 16:19, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Goethe's paternal grandfather, before he became a citizen of Frankfurt in 1687, had resided in France for four and a half years (and apparently changed the spelling to an international spelling) [3]. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 20:01, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

For a parallel (but in a sense opposite) change, see the second paragraph of Brontë_family#Origin of the name. --ColinFine (talk) 12:16, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

There are many written variations for some similar sounding letters or letter combinations in the german language. Allot of typical old names forked out into many forms because of that. Some people seem to adapt their name in that sense. Like the well known writer Gunter Grass (1999 Nobel Prize in Literature) who was actually born as Gunter Graß with "ss" being exactly such a variation or alternative writing of "ß" - both like "ö" and "oe" spoken out identical. --Kharon (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

N.b. since we're doing orthography: that's Günter, not Gunter (different pronunciation too). Henry^Flower 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Welsh "I am" question

What's the difference between rwy'n dysgu cymraeg and dw i'n dysgu cymraeg insofar as the "i am" component goes? I.e between rwy'n and dw i'n? According to google translate, both mean "I am learning Welsh". Thanks in advance. Peter Greenwell (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Just a matter of formality really, I think. See e.g. this. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Great, thanks for that. Peter Greenwell (talk) 04:16, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

There are also dialect variations.----Ehrenkater (talk) 19:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)