Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 December 22

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December 22

past partecipe of verb of XVIII (1795)

is fent a past partecipe in old form of english? if yes what is its contemporary form?--93.61.55.121 (talk) 11:22, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

No, but it's possible that in a text from 1795, you're seeing a "long s", and it actually says "sent", which is the past participle of "send". Adam Bishop (talk) 11:51, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

ok, thank you.--2001:B07:6463:31EE:4937:5270:AAE7:7A37 (talk) 12:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

There is a verb to fend but it is no longer in regular use except in fend off, and the past tense was always fended (as early as 1393) never fent unless some creative writer chose to use a non-standard past participle. The modern equivalent would be defended. Adam's suggestion seems much more likely. Dbfirs 14:51, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

To fend for oneself is common enough in the US. But "fent" is not used, and the long ess is obviously the case here as Adam has pointed out. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Medeis, I'd forgotten that other remaining usage of fend on both sides of the Pond. It was originally Scottish. Dbfirs 19:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually, "to fend" is a back-formation from Fender B. Gumby, inventor of a device used to protect the ends of automobiles involved in demolition derbies, and a type of guitar used to set on fire and attack hardwood concert stages with. μηδείς (talk) 16:55, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to be boring, and I did appreciate your joke, but Americans didn't start using Fender (vehicle) for the wheel arch on cars until around 1919. The term was used for ships from as early as 1626, and for fending poles from 1615. (I also like Stephen's link below!) Dbfirs 18:52, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Not boring at all. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 01:50, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

ſent. —Stephen (talk) 08:37, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

"he acts as if he don't Care"

Is the sentence OK in standard English (at least in America)? Would that be a subjunctive?--82.159.164.102 (talk) 13:37, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Subjunctive usage really does not get abbreviated like this. It technically does fit the form, since "do" is correct for subjunctive in this kind of tentative formation, but the same person will generally use "he don't care" even in an indicative sentence, so no it's an error. Nyttend (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

In British English, it wouldn't normally be written that way, and many people don't say it that way either. More likely to be "He acts as if he doesn't care." Bazza (talk) 15:17, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

That's short for "He do not care" and would probably get a stern warning from your English teacher. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:42, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

"He acts as if he do not care" is correct subjunctive usage, but the subjunctive is not contracted — it's generally used only in formal situations and set phrases nowadays, neither of which will be contracted (imagine contractions in a legal document!), and even if the English teacher be familiar with proper subjunctive usage, he will know that someone talking this way isn't attempting to use the proper mood. Nyttend (talk) 15:55, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Jayron32 (talk · contribs) is a teacher, possibly of English, so maybe he can tell us when "he do not care" would be acceptable usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you're only half right. Also, I do not care...Jayron32 05:30, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

I hear “as if he doesn’t” more than “as if he don’t”. The thing is, archaic grammar rules don’t really make that much sense anymore in a regular conversation, so in a normal conversation, I’d use “doesn’t”, not “don’t”. If you are writing to a nit-picky grammarian, then you should adhere to these rules strictly, like “up with which put”. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 16:28, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

• This is definitely not the subjunctive; there's no doubt or wish--it's a statement of fact. The use of don't in the third person is simply nonstandard and dialectal. My parents, who grew up in Philly, say "he don't" all the time, especially in complex sentences with another properly conjugated verb. They also use the English subjunctive properly when called for, and the cases of nonstandard don't do not overlap with their use of it. μηδείς (talk) 19:15, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I thought your dual native languages were Ruthenian and American English. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 20:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

"He acts as if he do not care" is similar to "He acted as if he were gone at the time". If this be the wrong form for subjunctive, what would be the right form of "do"? Nyttend (talk) 20:39, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

My Grandparents were Austro-Hungarian, my parents were born in Philadelphia. I speak English natively, Spanish fluently, and Ruthenian conversationally. I was exposed to all three extensively until age four, when I moved to what was then a rural area of South Jersey, and ceased regular usage of anything but English until I was 14 when I took up German and French. I reacquired Spanish fluently within a few months at 18 when I started working in restaurants with Mexicans and Filipinos who used it as a lingua franca. I lived in a Mexican household for a period, dream in Spanish, and have lived largely in hispanohablante areas for the last 25+ years. My parents did not learn Ruthenian well enough to inflect nouns or verbs, which was used as a secret code by the older generation, and speak only curses, food and household words, prayers, and other set or broken phrases. I learnt Ruthenian by studying Russian, attending Mass in the Ruthenian recension of the Byzantine Catholic Church and speaking it almost daily with my grandmother for the last five years of her life.

None of this has to do with the English subjunctive. Nyttend's "as if he were gone at the time" is in the past tense, and implies that he actually wasn't gone at the time--it expresses disbelief. But "he acts as if he don't care" means he really acts as if he really doesn't care, and it is in the present, not the past. (Doubt has to be expressed by adding something like "but he really does" after "as if he don't.") The present subjunctive is rare, and is not contracted, and it really applies to the future, as in "I suggest he not care about their insults." That means, a suggestion for his action going forth, not a statement about whether he has cared or does care at this moment (which is implied). μηδείς (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• It should be pointed out that this nonstandard usage of "don't" for "doesn't" has become common in song lyrics. Does Wikipedia have an article that addresses this? I would not know where to look. I suspect that songwriters like it because it's easier to fit to the melody, and I also suspect that its usage in songs is why the original poster thought it might be acceptable in general usage. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 23:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

• That's called poetic license. It's hick English. Like this oldie: "Roses are red / Violets are blue / Some poems rhyme / But this one don't." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:12, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• A lot of that comes from the influence of R&B sung by black artists on the Stones, Zeppelin, and other artists of the English Invasion who affected the black dialect. Even white boys from LA sang It Don't Matter to Me. μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• The Beatles use it in Ticket to Ride, but she don't care. I always thought it was an american "hillbilly" usage. -Arch dude (talk) 02:25, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

• It's not just Americans. I recall Hitchcock once talking about the "MacGuffin", the "thing" that the plot centers on, but what that specific thing happens to be, "The audience don't care." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:16, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

That's treating "audience" as a plural. Not the same thing. Akld guy (talk) 04:23, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

It's more than that, it's the only grammatically correct way to construct that sentence. Groups are plural in English. Fgf10 (talk) 08:26, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

In British English, then. Like saying "England have won the World Cup." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:19, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I said English. If I meant American, I'd have said American. Fgf10 (talk) 14:23, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

You're funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:03, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

It's unfair to comment on Fgf10's looks, Bugs. And in any case, Hitchcock was an American. μηδείς (talk) 20:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

"Hitchcock was an American." {{citation neeeded}} Rmhermen (talk) 00:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

You have already linked to the article, read it. μηδείς (talk) 16:48, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Hitchcock, like me, is (or was) a native of Leytonstone. His birthplace is now a petrol station and fast-food outlet (I think the Germans dropped a bomb on the original premises). Alansplodge (talk) 19:32, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

• It's a class thing, not regional. A South Philly accent is about as far away from Hillbilly as you can get regionally, like Yorkshire versus Cockney. Classwise, not so different, except that while my family was working class they were very ambitious. My mother corrected our speech and she raised us kids above her station, as did my parents' parents. μηδείς (talk) 05:06, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

It certainly didn't use to be just Americans, I've often come across it in educated 18th century British English. The OED gives a few usages:

1660 J. Bellamy tr. Origen Against Celsus i. xiii. 70 He don't simply say, that Wisdom is Foolishness with God.

1675 Woman turn'd Bully ii. ii. 30 Pick this Pipe; it don't come worth a Rush.

1706 G. Farquhar Recruiting Officer iv. ii. 50 Don't the Moon see all the World?

1713 R. Nelson Life Bp. Bull 81 Why, said the Preacher, Solomon don't say so.

1740 S. Richardson Pamela I. xxiv. 65 He don't know you.

1762 Gentleman's Mag. Jan. 38/1 It don't regard the present war.

It also quotes H. L. Mencken, in The American Language (1919), as saying "Don't has also completely displaced doesn't, which is very seldom heard. ‘He don't’ and ‘they don't’ are practically universal." More context here. Clearly doesn't has made a comeback since. --Antiquary (talk) 11:17, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Late 19th century: W S Gilbert often put "he don't" and "it don't" in the mouths of upper class characters. For example, in Iolanthe (1824) The Lord Chancellor amends the statute to say "anybody who don't marry a mortal". --ColinFine (talk) 12:09, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, my dear, I doesn't give a damn. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:54, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

The actual phrase is "Up with this I will not put." 92.8.223.3 (talk) 15:35, 23 December 2017 (UTC)