Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 May 26

Language desk
< May 25	<< Apr | May | Jun >>	May 27 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 26

Teochew: 白仁

What is the origin of 白仁? It is Teochew language term (possibly slang) for an idiot. My question is why does it mean that? What is the etymological origin of this phrase? Breaking it down, the characters white and Ren (Confucianism) doesn't have anything to do with idiocy and it is also struck me as confusing why Ren, something regarded so highly in other dialects, is being used negatively here. PS: I am a Cantonese and Teochew speaker with no written or reading fluency in Chinese hence why I am asking in English instead of researching this on my own in Chinese.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:03, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

It could be related to wikt:白痴, which is a Chinese-Japanese-Korean term for "idiot". "仁" also means kernel, could it be "idiot-kernel"? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Reading 白仁 as "Blank kernel" reminds me of German taube Nuss, empty nut, idiot. No idea whether the same etymology holds in Teochew. —Kusma (t·c) 15:50, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

What language is "Hays hark nviranats ukhti"

As found at youtu.be/YGVi0qa1_TQ. Is it Armenian? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:24, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Armenian - a hymn from the Armenian liturgy written by Komitas - http://www.allmusic.com/song/hays-hark-nviranats-ukhti-mt0039449202 Wymspen (talk) 15:52, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

"A hymn traditionally sung anthem the start the Mass, when the priest performs the incense". [1] I haven't been able to find an online translator which can make sense of it - maybe its a transliteration issue. Alansplodge (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

This page on Komitasian liturgy has the full text in Armenian, the title is Յայս յարկ նուիրանաց (Hays Hark Nuiranats) which the site defines as "Hymn of Preparation". One can punch the Armenian script into Google translate, but it still makes little sense, and I don't think it's good practice to post the results of Google translate here when one doesn't understand the source language at all (which I don't). ---Sluzzelin talk 17:02, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Liturgy tends to preserve archaic forms of language. Alansplodge (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, everyone! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:24, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I have left a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Armenia to see if an Armenian speaker can help with the translation - I'm curious now! Alansplodge (talk) 12:02, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Sibilant naming

The sibilant article says s and z are hissing. This is ridiculous! S is a hissing sound; z is more of a buzzing sound. Why use this term?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

The names refer to part of the mouth or throat where the sound is made, and the position of the pertinent structures (lips, cheeks, tongue, soft palate, and so on), but not whether the sound is voiced. /s/ and /z/ are identical except for voicing. The sounds of the ss in hissing and the zz in buzzing are the same, except for voicing. —Stephen (talk) 21:19, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Georgia guy, your ignorance of the origin of a term is not grounds upon which to call those more educated than you "ridiculous". Words have meaning within contexts, and s and z are considered hissing in contrast to sh and zh, which are considered hushing. See also argumentum ad incredulum for your fallacy. μηδείς (talk) 22:10, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

If you whisper a word containing a "z" sound, you'll find you're making an "s" sound. Whispering is speaking without voicing the sounds which are normally voiced. As Stephen said, "z" and "s" are identical sounds except "z" adds voicing, so if "s" is hissing, so is "z". CodeTalker (talk) 22:31, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

For both Stephen G. Brown and CodeTalker: Yes, I understand, with one difference; we need a better term. Georgia guy (talk) 22:43, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Then you need to take it up with professional academic linguists, who formulated and employ such descriptions. Wikipedia does not invent academic terminology, we only report it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.129.108 (talk) 00:27, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

This interesting entry in Wiktionary wikt:hizz#English says that hizz is obsolete for to hiss. Loraof (talk) 15:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Good riddance to it! I sympathize (sympathise?) with Georgia Guy. Bees doesn't hiss and snakes don't buzz. But English is weirder than nature. Best to not worry too much. Though I don't see why the article couldn't just say S and Z are hissing and buzzing. Nobody denies buzzing also exists. Or do they? InedibleHulk (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Some people appear to have difficulty understanding that a word can have more than one meaning, in different fields. "Fruit" has a different meaning in botany from its everyday meaning: they have a large overlap, but each includes items which the other would exclude. As Medeis has pointed out, "hissing" is a technical term in phonetics, used to distinguish /s/ and /z/ from /ʃ/ and /ʒ/. As Georgia guy points out, this meaning is similar, but not identical, to the everyday meaning of "hissing". --ColinFine (talk) 16:27, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase "A Drink Before the War"

I have linked to the phrase in the title, having just watched the relevant Fawlty Towers episode, but it is quite obvious that a drink before the war originated much earlier. Google is not very helpful, quoting Cleese and Sinead O'Connor. Can anyone indicate the source of the term? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I think myself that it was coined (as a concussion-induced Freudian slip) for the (1975) Fawlty Towers episode, and that Dennis Lehane utilised it within his (1994) novel and as its title only because it was widely known from FT (and fitted with his plot), just as many phrases from plays and poems by William Shakespeare (not to mention many others') are used as titles because of their familiarity and evocativeness. The fact that search engines don't throw up prior usages suggests (though does not prove) that they don't exist. However, I'm quite open to being proved wrong. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.129.108 (talk) 00:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

The story line is that Basil, having suffered concussion, and having been told not to mention the war, manages to add a mention of the war to just about every sentence he utters. "A drink before the war" should have been "a drink before dinner." Wymspen (talk) 16:34, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Quite so: that seemed so obvious to me that I forgot to specify it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195) 90.200.129.108 (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2017 (UTC)