Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 June 24

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June 24

Insult "buckwheat"

One of the better remembered dialogues from The Hunt for Red October (film) is

Bill Steiner: "Hey I think someone just shot a torpedo at us!"

Capt. Bart Mancuso: "No shit, Buckwheat, now get the hell out of here!"

Apparently Mancuso uses the term "buckwheat" in the meaning of "smartass" or similar. But I have not found this usage as an insult anywhere else?! Where does it originate from? --KnightMove (talk) 12:23, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Billie Thomas... -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

For those in a hurry, from that linked article: "The character of Buckwheat in later years became synonymous with the derogatory "pickaninny" stereotype".

See also: Basketball coach calls black player 'Buckwheat,' says he was unaware of 'racial context' Alansplodge (talk) 15:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Unaware of the racial context? That boy's got a serious gap in his education. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Was he actually trying to say the guy was cluelessly stating the obvious? "Huckleberry" or "Rube" would have been a good alternative. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, but I think the standard would be "No shit, Sherlock!", for the alliteration, if nothing else. Ha - it's got its own entry on Wiktionary! Matt Deres (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the info. But now I wonder even more what the character Mancuso wants to express with applying this term to a White adult man. --KnightMove (talk) 18:07, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

That he isn't very smart. I would have used Captain Obvious, as it fits the nautical situation best. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:26, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's the first level of connotation, but it's a bit of a broken metaphor. Minus the racial stereotype, it doesn't really mean that much. Matt Deres (talk) 19:55, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

It is possible that the use of "Buckwheat" wasn't in reference to the original Little Rascals character but the Eddie Murphy character on Saturday Night Live. Eddie Murphy created his own version of Buckwheat on SNL. That character was often confused by the obvious and, when he realized what was happening, he would say "Otay." That was popular from the early to mid 80's. Hunt For Red October was developed in the late 80's. It wasn't long before nobody really remembered or referenced the Eddie Murphy character. So, currently displaced by 30 years, I can see how the reference would be very forgettable. 12.207.168.3 (talk) 11:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but both versions of Buckwheat presented him as a slow black kid, so not much difference in meaning there. SinisterLefty (talk) 12:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Don't Bogard...origin

There is a phrase which I believe to be common and to be related to the actor Humphrey Bogard and which reads along the lines of "Don't Bogard that steak." or "Don't Bogard those drinks." meaning that one should share rather than hoard. What is the origin of this phrase please? Is it to do with Humphrey as suspected and if so how and why? Any further information would be appreciated. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 13:57, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I've heard it derives from Humphrey Bogart smoking his cigarettes to the hilt. --KnightMove (talk) 14:27, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Anton, you'll find it easier to search for stuff if you bother to spell it correctly: bogart. Matt Deres (talk) 15:21, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

EO says the same thing. It has to do with monopolizing something, specifically a joint.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

As famously referenced in the song Don't Bogart Me by The Fraternity of Man, featured on the soundtrack of Easy Rider: "Don't Bogart that joint, my friend. Pass it over to me." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 00:21, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Translation

Please, what does this advert say? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Vorgashor,+Komi+Republic,+Russia,+169933/@67.588249,63.811028,3a,81.1y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNhJsnz7hHKkLqzs7CzW0_jYJGK3Y2otlSzEZYh!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNhJsnz7hHKkLqzs7CzW0_jYJGK3Y2otlSzEZYh%3Dw203-h134-k-no!7i1024!8i680!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x4487a06d67e7d2f1:0xab8d791f28340b52!2sYurshor,+Komi+Republic,+Russia,+169915!3b1!8m2!3d67.610278!4d64.0019439!3m4!1s0x44879e3ecc402fe5:0xaf2526183ee0dcf9!8m2!3d67.5882212!4d63.810997 Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

You mean:

Люди твои Россия

Люди твои Воркута?

It says:

'Your people, Russia

Your people, Vorkuta',

However, for context or explanation (or confirmation/specification), maybe you rather wait for natives. --Galtzaile (talk) 15:46, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Lord and Word rhyme (or close rhyme) in some dialect or historical dialect?

In my wife's LDS Hymnal, there are at least three hymns that rhyme (in situations where the other verses clearly have rhyming words) the words "Lord" and "Word". In my Dialect (Mid Atlantic USA), they aren't rhyming words to me at all. "Lord" rhymes with "poured" and "Word" with "bird". Is there some other dialect of English (or historical dialect) where they are at least somewhat closer to rhyming? (I'd have to go back and research for the specific hymns, but I'm pretty sure that there are at least three).Naraht (talk) 21:19, 24 June 2019 (UTC) Found at least three:1) With All the Power of Heart and Tongue, 2) From All That Dwell below the Skies, 3) Sweet Is the Work

The words may have rhymed in some cases during at least part of the Middle English period (as far as I can tell), but I would doubt that any significant relevant dialect existed in the times and places most relevant to Mormonism (i.e. the United States from the mid-19th century to the present). It's probably just one of the "eye rhymes" popular during the Victorian period (e.g. "wind" (noun) and "mind")... AnonMoos (talk) 23:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

"Eye rhyme", yes. "Lord" doesn't audibly rhyme with "word", but to this American it doesn't rhyme with "poured" either. Lord rhymes with gourd or gored, while poured rhymes with Ford. However, in old songs (recordings from a century ago) they audibly rhymed "wind" (noun) with "mind". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:08, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

[Edit Conflict] One also finds (or found half a century ago) a fair few of these in the Methodist Hymn-Book, many of whose lyrics were written in the late 18th as well as in the 19th century. (Though not from a practising Christian family, I attended a Methodist school for seven years.)

I suspect in some instances the writers were employing older pronunciations that though superceded would still have been remembered or known at the time of writing, perhaps from their preservation in works by writers like William Shakespeare and John Milton. In the former's As You Like It the song 'Blow, blow, thou winter wind' continues with 'Thou art not so unkind', and I have heard performances rhyming 'wind' with (the modern) 'kind'.

The same pronunciation survives in the archaic verb 'wind' in the sense of 'blow' as in 'winding a horn, bugle etc.' which like the noun derives from the prehistoric German noun *windaz, itself stemming from PIE *went-. ('Wind' in the sense of 'wrap' or 'meander', though also rhyming, comes instead from prehistoric German *windan.)

As for 'Lord' and 'word', I think these are still close to rhymes in some (fast vanishing) West-Country English dialects, so I would not rule out a particular mid-19th century Mormon hymn writer speaking (and hence writing) thus, since in that period immigration from the British Isles was still ongoing, and 'American' dialects and accents 170 years ago were not necessarily what they are now. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.177.55 (talk) 01:17, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Hymns (and national anthems) are full of bad rhymes that can't ever have had the same pronunciation; Hark the Herald Angels Sing (1739) hopes to get away with "come" and "womb", while God Save the Queen (1745 or previous) tries to rhyme "cause" and "voice". A more recent example is God Defend New Zealand (1877) which rhymes "star", "war" and "afar". Not even Kiwis talk like that. Alansplodge (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Y'all never been in a choir? The words that "rhyme" (well or poorly) typically come at the end. The syllables at the end are held longer. There are certain vowels you don't want to hold too long because they're grating to the ear. The choir director will tell you to pronounce them differently.

Listen to a practiced choir vs the congregation singing from the hymnal, and the rhymes will sound right vs wrong.

That is, sometimes. What you're asking about is really two separate issues, one of which is that poets and songwriters were by&large (let's be frank) pretty shitty back then. Cf the forced elision, unlikely in common speech, indicated by apostrophes where they shouldn't be, unseen outside of hymnals, like where "pow'r" rhymes with "far." Temerarius (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

дворовые песни

Prompted by this thread (permanent link) or this one (dynamic link): What does "дворовые песни" (or "дворо́вая песня" in the singular) mean, how would you translate it? "песня" obviously means "song", it is "дворовый" I'm interested in. Here are Wiktionary's translations, but none of them quite clarify, to me, what kind of songs "дворовые песни" are. Thank you in advance! ---Sluzzelin talk 21:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Found a source here that discusses the phenomenon (p102) and translates it as "courtyard folk songs", which seems reasonable. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 23:43, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, filelakeshoe! ---Sluzzelin talk 22:06, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

to me as L1 "дворовый" has somewhat declasse associations over and above the literal meaning of "of or pertaining to the courtyard." for example, дворовые люди - serfs, дворовый бокс - backyard boxing, дворовый футбол -street football, etc. There's also nostalgia, as among many people's earliest childhood memories is playing ball with other kids in the двор or plunking the guitar with one's school buddies. So there's something both illicit and familiar. Picture a busy Italian neighborhood - that plus socialist pre-fab architecture. I wouldn't btw call the song that is the subject of the above thread, дворовая, rather, it's all-out, bold and self-conscious blatnyak (but maybe the distinction exists only in my head) Aecho6Ee (talk) 17:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that enlightening response, Aecho6Ee. I wasn't aware of the blatnyak article! ---Sluzzelin talk 19:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)