Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 June 16

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June 16

What does "taking it staring at our laces" mean?

Jackson commands his former military team to steal cash trucks:

• Jackson: Gentlemen, we have found our opportunity to stand tall again after years taking it staring at our laces.

What does "taking it staring at our laces" mean? Rizosome (talk) 06:56, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Something like: 'For years we have been subdued and have put up with (figuratively) standing with our gaze down (towards the shoe laces). Now we have the possibility to become proud enough to straighten our back and lift our head.' --T*U (talk) 07:38, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Still Wrath of Man.  --Lambiam 08:31, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Google suggests that the phrase is a quote from a song lyric by a popular beat combo called The Static Jacks from a 2011 album, If You're Young:

We've been wasting time / Staring at our laces, leaving both untied / We've been stuck inside / Either something changes, or my parents lied.

Make of it what you will. Alansplodge (talk) 10:17, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The song lyrics lack the part expressed in 'stand tall again' vs. 'taking it'. If you just stare at your laces without tying them, it sounds like apathy, but if you are 'taking it', it sounds like subjection is involved. --T*U (talk) 12:44, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

But it was the first lace-staring analogy I could find, the point being that it's not an established idiom, unless someone else knows better. Alansplodge (talk) 22:52, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Why Gambia in french language called gambie?

I dont know if senegal in french uses e acute like the above of car hood opening conventionally. BUT, why gambia in french just change the letter a with letter e? please explain! 180.243.24.169 (talk) 12:51, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

In French, the Latin "ia" ending became "ie", thus Maria>Marie, Gambia>Gambie. 2A00:23A8:4015:F500:95E0:A17:1653:A40A (talk) 14:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Confirm that in French Senegal is written Sénégal. I like your "car hood [bonnet] opening conventionally" analogy. 2A00:23A8:4015:F500:95E0:A17:1653:A40A (talk) 14:10, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Compare fr:Algérie, fr:Éthiopie, fr:Mauritanie, fr:Namibie, fr:Somalie, fr:Tanzanie, fr:Tunisie, fr:Zambie. On the other hand, fr:Liberia and fr:Nigeria do not follow this pattern (and do not have "é"). Evidently, they were borrowed directly rather than being gallicized like the rest. --ColinFine (talk) 22:13, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Of course, whether the French name of a country ends in "ie" is an entirely separate matter from whether or not there is an acute accent over any "e"s there may be within the word.80.44.95.69 (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Greek oi

Why does Greek oi (which had the same sound as English oi in oil in ancient Greek) get Latinized as an E?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't, or at least shouldn't. If not using the traditional 'oi' romanization, it will normally be romanized as 'i', because that is the pronunciation in modern Greek. Can you link to an example where 'e' is used? --T*U (talk) 15:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Ekistics. Georgia guy (talk) 15:15, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

οι was usually latinized as oecode: lat promoted to code: la , which was in early Latin written and probably pronunced as [oi̯] and later monophthongized to /eː/ (Ancient_Greek_phonology#Diphthongs, Latin_phonology_and_orthography#Diphthongs). οι also went through some changes and a complete explanation should take some dates into account, but it is safe to assume that at one point that was simply what made most sense and common enough to establish a model. This came to English and other modern languages through different routes (often just as "e"). Personuser (talk) 15:22, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The construction appears in words like Οἰκουμενικὸν. That is transliterated into English as "oecumenical" or "ecumenical". Greek does not appear to have any words beginning οε. The word "idiom" for example displays both a short and a long "I". This long "i" appears indistinguishable from a long "e". The word "idea" is ιδέα in Greek - I don't know if the ι is long or short. The Greek word Οιδίπους appears as "Oedipus" in English. 2A02:C7F:A5D:6E00:A5BC:F9AD:162:BAFA (talk) 15:27, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I think the question refers to words like "oecumenical" and "oeconomics", where the "o" is dropped in most or all English texts, probably for simplicity. (Imagine a newspaper writing about the U.S. foederal government; everyone would think it a typo.) It's roughly analogous to "ae" being rendered "e" in 21st-century English, although many such words (e.g. haemoglobin) retain the "ae" in Commonwealth spellings while losing it in American spellings. I can't immediately think of any Greek-derived "oi" words that 21st-century English universally or generally spells with "oe", although probably there are some that aren't coming to my mind right now. Nyttend backup (talk) 16:16, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Phoenix comes to mind. Deor (talk) 16:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I might be old fashioned (as well as British), but I would always write fœtus and type foetus rather than fetus. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.58 (talk) 23:25, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Here's a nice list (some examples like wiktionary:œuvre#English don't fit, but it's still quite impressive). Personuser (talk) 16:27, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

In British English, "oe" (as opposed to œ) is still used in preference to simplified US English spelling. wikt:oedema, for example. Bazza (talk) 19:00, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Some of the "oe" spellings seem pretentious to me, but "Oenology" would look strange without its first "o"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:53, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

And economics would look strange with one. Deor (talk) 00:15, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

but is readily found (as œconomics) in older texts.^[1][2][3]

And sometimes a fake "oe" is included, e.g. "foetus" (see 2.122's comment above, spotted after drafting this comment). 80.44.95.69 (talk) 20:21, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Israeli English

What English spelling variety prevails in Israel? Languages of Israel says Despite the country's history of British mandatory rule, written English in Israel today uses primarily American spelling and grammar but has no source. Using Google, I found a sociolinguistic study of English use in Israel, https://www.jstor.org/stable/30027459, but it's 42 years old and thus unuseful for English usage in 2021. Everything else I found with Google was false positives or totally unreliable. Nyttend backup (talk) 22:46, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I couldn't find a refrence for you, except that the Israeli Government has a Ministry of Defense. Alansplodge (talk) 23:46, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Here is a useful article about the changing role of English in Israeli society over the last 73 years. I think that the acceptance of American spelling over British spelling is due to the historic anti-colonial resentment of the UK and the very friendly relationships with the US for many decades. I've visited Israel twice, in 1981 and 2005, and I noticed some grammatical or syntactical differences. The one I remember most clearly is that Israeli English speakers use the word "already" much more frequently than Americans, and much earlier in a sentence. So, when engaging in a conversation with an Israeli, they might say, "Already, I figured out that you are from California based on a few things that you said." It is perfectly understandable but sounds a bit strange to a Californian at first. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:50, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I remember hearing some French speakers translate "depuis" into English as "already" in speech. Translating "Je suis ici depuis trois mois" literally into English as "I am here since three months" sounds quite odd to English speakers, and correcting to "I've been here for three months" might be difficult on the fly while speaking, so they just said "I am here already three months"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:03, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

A few responses from an American expat living in Israel since 9/1984. English language is a mandatory subject in government primary and secondary schools operated by the Israeli Ministry of Education for both Jewish and Arabic students, teaching American spelling and grammar. (I'll confirm this at a more suitable hour and correct if necessary.) Two national mainstream newspapers produce print and online English-language editions: Haaretz (Haaretz.com) uses US English, and The Jerusalem Post (originally The Palestine Post from the British Mandate era) switched from British to American English at some point in the last quarter of the 20th C. (if I recall correctly). The other grammatical errors found among Israeli non-native speakers of English are characteristic of the many differences stemming from Hebrew being a Semitic language: lacking an indefinite article, article adjective following noun, non-correspondence between prepositions, etc. Consider, though, the mess native Anglophones are likely to make of their acquired Hebrew. (E.g. more rigid syntax, biblical idioms, let alone inflections for sex: there's no neuter gender for third person singular!) Hope this helps! -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Possibly the process has been aided by migration; total immigration to Israel from the USA is more than three times that from the UK - see Aliyah#Historic data. Alansplodge (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I think you mean adjective following noun, Deborahjay. --ColinFine (talk) 21:49, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, ColinFine - redacted above. Thanks! -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:48, 19 June 2021 (UTC)