Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 July 17

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July 17

Ye olde spellynge

Why in the St Crispin's Day Speech is it spelled Crispin in some places and Crispian in others, even in the same sentence ("And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by")? Be there method to this madness? Enquiring minds want to know. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:07, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Note that Saint Crispin's Day is actually the feast day of twin saints, Crispin and Crispinian. This short analysis of the St Crispin's day speech says that Shakespeare is using "Crispian" to mean "Crispinian" (by mistake?), thus either can refer to the day in question, or both together, as in "Crispin Crispian".  Card Zero  (talk) 09:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

(ec, I didn't know about there being two saintly fellows) Probably a matter of metre, the speech being written in iambic pentameters. When Shakespeare needs a single stress in the name it's Cr'i-spin (as in the last line "Saint Cr'i-spin's d'ay" with stresses on Crisp and day), when he needs two it's Cr´is-pi-´an, hence "And Cr'i-spin Cr'i-spi-'an ..." (pardon the inept typography). --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:13, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Seems like it must have been super confusing for their parents. But if people can figure out how to deal with naming all their sons George, then I suppose workarounds could be found. --Trovatore (talk) 18:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Or all their daughters Jenny... --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

A much less sympathetic example. --Trovatore (talk) 04:45, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Or all twenty-three sons Dave... MinorProphet (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Note that we don't know exactly how Shakespeare spelled anything - the plays have come to us by way of the First Folio published 7 years after his death. This was compiled and edited by two of his colleagues, either from prompt books or manuscripts, none of which have survived. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 18:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore English spelling was very chaotic back then, with authors sometimes using different spellings in the same text – whether to equalize line lengths, or just for no particular reason. The spelling of Shakespeare's name wasn't even standardized until the late 19th century. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 01:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The Faversham version of the legend calls them Crispin and Crispianus. Anyway, I feel we can't let this question escape into the archives without someone mentioning that they are the patron saints of glovers, and Shakespeare's father was a glover. DuncanHill (talk) 16:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

It's funny — I know the surname Glover, especially for Danny, but it never occurred to me that there was such a profession as glover. I would have thought it would fold into either "leatherworker" or "tailor". Trovatore (talk) 17:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

See Worshipful Company of Glovers. When you think about it, gloves are a pretty intricate artifact. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 00:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Yikes. That article reads remarkably like straight copy/paste from their website. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

That lends extra meaning to the actor named Crispin Glover. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)