Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 May 1

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May 1

German May Day

Between the terms "Erste Mai", "Maifeiertag", "Maitag", "Maifeier", and others, which one would carry the least connotation of Labour Day, labour unions, political movements, social justice and all that, and more of the "pagan summer solstice" meaning/implication (assuming there is an understood difference between all these terms)? 72.234.12.37 (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

1 May has no association with summer solstice. I think you're thinking of May Day. Bazza (talk) 12:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I was, yes. The general festivities associated with the coming of the summer season practised by Germanic tribes before Christianity became the norm. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I would say that none of those options has the connotation of Labour Day. That would be "Tag der Arbeit". -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 13:38, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I've been told that many of those terms have since become synonymous with "Tag der Arbeit" since around the 1970's, especially amongst second-class citizens and people who lived in the DDR/East Germany. So I've been meaning to ask which term is the least likely to incline towards that meaning, and refer to the rural/folkloric celebrations of the arrival of summer. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

That may be due to the fact that it was a much bigger deal in the GDR with parades. I am from West Germany and only slightly associate "Erster Mai" with "Tag der Arbeit" because they are sometimes used together: "Erster Mai: Tag der Arbeit". But the other terms I associate if anything with customs like maypoles and Maienstecken.[1] -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

In the context of the struggle of the working class these terms are synonyms, but in the absence of a context the term Maifeier used as a plural is perhaps most likely to evoke the connotation of folkloristic customs such as maypole dances. Conversely, without context Erster Mai may be the most likely to be interpreted as the International Workers' Day.  --Lambiam 13:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The pagan celebrations are in the night before 1 May, Walpurgisnacht. —Kusma (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Ivan with an "ee" or "ai"

This is something that has always peeved the back of my head whenever I hear it: Why do English speakers pronounce the name Ivan as "ai-ven" (/ˈaɪːvən/) instead of "ee-van" (/ɪˈvɑːn/), when virtually every other language in the world including the native Slavic uses the latter pronunciation? Or how did that pronunciation come to be? When would've been the first time that the "ai-ven" pronunciation entered widespread usage? I guess the same or similar type of phenomenon with the name "Michael" ("mai-khol" (/ˈmaɪkəl/) versus "mii-khell" or "mii-ka-el" (/ˈmiːkäel/)) happened but I'm more fine with that for some reason, perhaps because that name is more commonly encountered... 72.234.12.37 (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

A big part of it is likely due to the great vowel shift, during which the "i" vowel (pronounced "ee" as you note) changed into the modern English pronunciation the diphthong /ai/. Lots of English words (not just Ivan) were formerly pronounced "ee" and now are pronounced "ai". --Jayron32 12:16, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Admittedly, I did suspect the Great Vowel Shift might've been an influence for a bit, but for some reason I didn't think that phenomenon would affect names as well. I always assumed it affected mostly normal everyday words, such as "knife" and "light". 72.234.12.37 (talk) 16:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

It probably could depend somewhat on how long the names have been around in the Anglo-Saxon world or how foreign they feel, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:14, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

It's going to affect many words that use an "I" in the spelling, even those which came into the language later than the dates of the vowel shift. English speakers will tend to verbally use the conventions of English vowel sounds, even when those words are pronounced differently in other languages. This kind of thing happens all the time., where non-English words are changed in pronunciation to fit English phonology, and isn't particularly limited to the name Ivan. --Jayron32 17:41, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not even unique to English. —Tamfang (talk) 01:15, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

General ignorance/just don't care? The English are well-known for mangling place and personal names and words of other languages. Consider Oleg, which actually sounds most like Al-yék, (Alec, Alexander) when said in Russian, which most people pronounce as if it were written as it sounds, Oh-legg. Some people say ice- cream, others say ice-cream. Also eg French Reims (we say "Reams") or Metz (they say "Mess") MinorProphet (talk) 14:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

If they want Oleg pronounced "Al-yék", maybe they should use a more intuitive spelling. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Er, we users of English don't get to preach about intuitive spelling, of all things.

Russian orthography and pronunciation are far more predictable one to another than English could ever be. There are vanishingly few exceptions to the sounds that letters make, one of the most common ones being that unstressed o is pronounced like "uh". (Of course, you have to know where the stress is in any word, and that's quite unpredictable.) Also, consonants in final position are devoiced (g becomes k, b becomes p, d becomes t, etc). Also, genitive adjectives ending in -ого, which in other contexts would be pronounced "ogo", are pronounced "uh-vuh". And that is virtually all you need to know about Russian exceptions. Compare this with the very weighty tome that could be written about English exceptions, for which our language is justly infamous. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

And whoever originally transliterated it as "Oleg" doesn't get to preach to us about how to pronounce it. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

From our article: Transliteration is not primarily concerned with representing the sounds of the original but rather with representing the characters, ideally accurately and unambiguously. ... Transcription, conversely, seeks to capture sound rather than spelling. (my bolding). Oleg is transliterated perfectly from its origin, Олег. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:29, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I think Orthographic transcription is the link you are looking for. The old word "translettering" seems to me to be a better term than "transliteration". Perhaps we should revive it. DuncanHill (talk) 11:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

And foreigners are well-known for mangling English names and words. People who don't speak a language are often pretty bad at speaking that language. DuncanHill (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

But some (maybe only a few) take care to at least try try to say people's names correctly, as a courtesy. I was told by a Pole how to pronounce Adam Mickiewicz's surname, approximately like "Meea-vitch" - the Russians don't swallow entire syllables like that. MinorProphet (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I have, once or twice, offended people by pronouncing their names according to my best guess at the source language! —Tamfang (talk) 01:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I have had my first name, Håkan, being mispronounced uncountable times by non-Scandinavians. Generally, it doesn't feel worth the bother to take offense... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:43, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

MinorProphet, that's not how "Mickiewicz" is pronounced (it's three syllables), so either they were pulling your leg or you misremembered what they said. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kpalion:I only speak some Russian, and I am not familiar at all with Polish, so apologies if I misunderstood. However, I said "Mee-kia-vitch", and the man I was talking to definitely corrected me with something like "Mee-a-vitch", and definitely not "Mee-ka-vitch" or anything like an audible "k". I'm fairly sure he wasn't pulling my leg, we had a number of interesting and worthwhile conversations before and after. Maybe there are variations in Polish pronunciation. MinorProphet (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm, you're sure it wasn't a name spelled with a L with stroke, or with rz-, as these are pronounced a lot differently than what an English speaker would expect?... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we pronounce it "ai-ven"? I can't think of an English word that starts with "i" pronounced as "ee". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:44, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The name Ian? --Jayron32 17:57, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

You got me there. But even that is not absolute, see Ian Ziering. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

A greater similarity is to the Anglo-Norse forename Ivor, or the Welsh version which is Ifor. Possibly related is the Anglo-Norman Ivo. All of these start with an "ai" vowel in modern English (or Welsh). Alansplodge (talk) 18:51, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Nothing linguistic is an absolute. It's a cobbled together system of grunts and groans that's constantly evolving, every second of every day. That we can ascribe any level of order to it at all is a miracle. --Jayron32 18:11, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Or the name Igor, which is usually but not always pronounced "ee-gor" in English. CodeTalker (talk) 19:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Whereas the Russians (not sure about other similar languages) pronounce it something like "eager" as in keen, with a rolled R. My kingdom for a Babel Fish. MinorProphet (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2023 (UTC)