Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 March 25

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

March 25

Ducks in a row

Where does the idiomatic phrase "to get all one's ducks in a row" come from? Thanks. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 14:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Under the alternative form have one's ducks in a row, Wiktionary conjectures, "Perhaps from the image of ducklings following their mother in an orderly line. See also line up one's ducks." For the latter, Wiktionary offers a conjecture from rather different imagery: "Most likely a reference to the line of ducks in a shooting gallery."

Here we find these two idioms in a mash-up: "He had it all planned out before he brought it up for discussion, my Uncle Roy being a man who liked to have his ducks lined up in a row before shooting them."^[1]  --Lambiam 15:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

So nothing to do with snooker or bowling then? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Here are Michael Quinion's thoughts on the idiom. He does mention that some have proposed the cue sport of pool as a possible origin but dismisses that suggestion. Deor (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Have you ever watched a mother duck with her ducklings? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:46, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Where they all follow in an unruly gaggle and the mother duck just leaves them to it... Wouldn't that be getting all your ducklings in a line? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC) Maybe your ducklings are just much better behaved?

Line and row are synonyms in this sense and the shorter "duck" might be favored over "duckling".--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

For some reason I imagine a line of ducklings like a queue and a row of ducks like a shooting gallery. For me it depends on the orientation! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The orientation of the viewer, not the ducks themselves.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The orientation of the ducks is an added complication. As is the position of the viewer. I might accept they were synonyms from a God's-eye view. If the ducks were flying overhead, however, I'd not describe them as being in a row. Perhaps one has to assume stationary ducks, which are physically within reach. Although, of course, they are only idiomatic notional ducks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn't flying ducks be in a row? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, possibly just my personal use/understanding of the word "row". And I can't actually claim to have ever seen either. Unlike geese, ducks seem a bit more random in their flying formations. And I'm not sure you can have a line, or a row, of just two. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Ducklings follow their moms in orderly rows: Why ducklings follow in a row. Then, of course, the idiom reappropriates their innate behavior of doing that to our own ends. Modocc (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Who does the getting? It looks somewhat too innate to be managed, least of all by Mom? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Their moms are known to lead them in and around the water. When in the water, they have a distinct advantage of surfing each other's wake in an orderly row per the article I linked to. Modocc (talk) 21:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, sure they lead them, and generally not looking back. If "getting one's duck(ling)s in a row" is idiomatically expressive of leadership, then I guess that's consistent. But I suspect the phrase generally means something more/else. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

By following their mothers in orderly lines, the ducks are well-organized. Thus the idiom means "to get things ready, be well-organized, to put things, especially affairs, in order" as in "completing preparations for doing something". Modocc (talk) 00:18, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can see the similarities, but am still not convinced, sorry. Another issue is the fact that as soon as the mother duck stops, the ducklings' orderly line disappears. The idiomatic ducks seem to be deliberately and carefully placed in a static formation? I've looked at the definitions over at wikt, but they seem to have no sources to support them at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:13, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Can we be sure it's not related to bowling? Bowls is an ancient sport. This book [2] says:

One tale takes us to the early history of bowling when the bowling pins were clunkier and squatter, earning them the nickname "ducks". Before fancy machines did the job, someone had to manually line up these "duck pins" after each round. So having your ducks in a row was like having these bowling pins all neat and tidy before rolling your next ball.

This book [3] traces it back to forte dux in aro (forty ducks in a row) found in Caesar's De bello Gallico. I don't recall it despite it being a set book at school. 2A00:23D0:73F:FC01:2DB6:579E:2C6E:580A (talk) 10:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

So that would be Commentarii de Bello Gallico, with the phrase translated as "Brave Leader in Battle"? Thank you very much for that. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

"Forte dux in aro" recalls Mots d'Heures... -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, we obviously reappropriate their innate behavior of doing that to our own ends. Including calling bowling pins duck pins (and if they quack like ducks they're likely ducks). Modocc (talk) 12:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it's time to take cover from this thread... Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

If you don't recall it from reading Caesar at school, it may be because in the school editions they skipped the parts written in dog Latin. "Brave Leader" would be fortis dux. There is a Latin adverb forte, meaning "perchance". So, does it mean, perchance, "Perchance a leader in battle"? Nopes, that requires a noun *arus or *arum, but there ain't no such noun in Latin.  --Lambiam 23:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes. Thank goodness someone here knows their aris from their Roman elbow. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I found this Google "snippet view" from the The Westminster Monthly: Volumes 38-39 (1908) from Westminster College (Missouri) which says:

John Trippe (picking up Caesar) - "O say, Latin is sure easy. I wish I had taken it. Forte dux in aro, 'forty ducks in a row'; Passus sum jam, 'pass us some jam'; Caesar sic decat unde cur egressi licitam, 'Caesar sicked the cat on the cur, guess he licked him'."

Not sure if the John Trippe mentioned is John Trippe, or if that matters. Alansplodge (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

"I'm not impressed by any cooks who can brag about a filet mignon. A guy who can take the neck of a shank or can use tripe to make into something delicious is really interesting to me; that's impressive." - American celebrity chef, Anthony Bourdain. As we all know, Wikipedia just has too many cooks? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)