Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 December 16

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December 16

People who lived in Paris around the 1750's

I bought my wife a beautiful framed, antique map of Paris circa 1750 for Xmas (she likes that kind of stuff). I wanted to try to "bring it alive" by collecting some info about people who lived there at the time...preferably famous people...we could be pretty relaxed about the exact date - anything from 1700 to 1800 would probably be OK at a pinch. I'd really like to find online material - personal stuff like letters from the time that I could print out for her (they'd definitely be out of copyright!). Maybe find their street addresses?

Any ideas? 70.112.128.105 (talk) 03:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Madame de Pompadour was probably in the area. There were also a couple of visitors in the 1770s and 1780s you may have heard of: Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. And according to his article, Voltaire was there for a little while in 1749. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Marie Antionette and Louis XVI were in Paris at the Tuileries Palace near the end of the 1700's (which was also, coincidentally, their end). StuRat (talk) 06:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

It was the time leading up to the French Revolution, and the book A Tale of Two Cities was set partly in Paris at that time.--Phil Holmes (talk) 09:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Quite a long "leading up" - 39 years in the future! Alansplodge (talk) 22:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

One character I have always found fascinating is Antoine de Sartine, who among other things served as the head of the Paris police 1759-1774. He had such a good reputation for his police work that several (probably apocryphal) detective stories with him as the main character was published during his lifetime, and not only in France but in most of Europe. I have a copy of a Danish edition with some of the stories that dates from 1780. In those days the police prefect, besides his crimefighting functions, also functioned as an administrator of the city, and thus had a great influence in the daily going ons in the city. So in that particular period he was seen as a sort of benign, but stern when needed, personification of the city itself. Unfortunately I don't know where he lived, but I would think it should not be too hard to figure out. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Diderot, d'Alembert, and of course our very own grandmother. Moreover, Fragonard was studying under Chardin and Boucher right around then. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Louis XV was king in 1750. He's sort of overlooked compared to Louis XIV and XVI, but he was just as important (if you're American, he's the guy that lost Quebec, which is important for the American Revolution). Adam Bishop (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget the Marquis de Sade. Yes, he was a real person, in fact a member of the Jacobite party (like the judge Robespierre). Of course, at that time he went by the moniker of Citizen De Sade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.40 (talk) 23:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Mark Twain and a PC

Crystal Ball Question asked by Cuddlyable3 for blatantly WP:POINT and experimental reasons.

This counterfactual question was posed recently: If Mark Twain was still alive today, could he use a Personal computer ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Seriously? He's got hands. Yes, he could use a computer. This is WP:POINT-making silliness attempting to disrupt the discussion going on at your link up there. Lets keep the actual discussion regarding the scope of the reference desk at Wikipedia talk:Reference desk and lets not play this game anymore, n'est ce pas? --Jayron32 13:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Posessing hands is not a sufficient qualification for using a PC and my link is to a general discussion of counterfactual questions and not about this one in particular. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Mark Twain 1835-1910 would not be overly surprised by his time travel into an era of unfamiliar technology, having written a book on that theme. He would already be aware of the mechanical calculators used in the 19th century and was familiar with electric wiring, as used for lightning rods, detonators, electric fences and the marvels he observed in Nikola Tesla's laboratory. If told that the device before him were a Personal Computer he would be sceptical because no "person" would be in sight, but he would recognize certain things. The flat thing that looks like a squashed typewriter still showing the QWERTY layout he would recognize, having been the first to submit a book Tom Sawyer 1876 manuscript in typewritten form. He knew of several indoor electric appliances such as the doorbell and telephone, and he could have seen the electric stove exhibited in Chicago in 1893. However he would face the same initial difficulties in using a PC as many elderly people do today: finding the on/off switch, and aquiring the hand-eye coordination demanded by the mouse. At this stage, explanations would probably only confuse Mr. Clemens so his education should begin by setting the Windows Accessories Calculator on the glass porthole before him (showing Standard not Scientific view), and let him get used to this miraculous calculator that can be driven by key or mouse, works soundlessly and has no handle to crank. Then we might introduce him to Notepad and being the vastly prolific writer he is (whose work is still being rediscovered), he would probably soon write a book about his latest experiences. Alas he would not know how to Save the file, nor comprehend what that means, so without major re-education one can hardly say that Mark Twain would benefit much from a PC. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC) In no way is Mark Twain a PC. He is a MAC! --Aspro (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Samuel Clemens was an early adopter in his day, and his home was full of state-of-the-art (for the time) technologies. My guess is that he would be fascinated by modern technology, and be eager to learn how to use them. As a former typesetter, I think he'd be able to pick up the required physical skills reasonably quickly, with the help of a good tutor. Give him two weeks, and he'll be editing Wikipedia with the rest of us. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC) MT may have been familiar with a Linotype machine as they were developed whilst he was still alive.--Aspro (talk) 16:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC) He lost his fortune investing in the Paige Compositor, which was made obsolete by the Linotype machine, so I'd guess that he was all too familiar with the Linotype. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point. :) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

How is this possibly a WP:CRYSTAL BALL question? Do we think that Mark Twain's going to come back as a Zombie some time in the future? Buddy431 (talk) 22:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Do we think that Mark Twain's going to come back He had better come back! What is the point in extending copyright terms, if it is not going to encourage or force popular authors to create more works? This is what copyright was created for -wasn't it?--Aspro (talk) 22:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, he did just release an autobiography. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

This may be a silly question, but it's not a "crystal ball" question, and anyway, I don't think questions about what might happen in the future are banned on the RD. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

A better question might have been something along the lines of "how likely is it" that Twain would use a computer. If he was interested in gadgetry, and if he used a typewriter, the odds are good he would have used a computer (be it PC or Mac). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

He loved technology, according to his article (though one such interest cost him an enormous amount of money). Clarityfiend (talk) 01:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

That confirms the best answer for the OP, that there is a good chance Twain would indeed have been into home computers. In fact, maybe he would have been an early investor at Apple or Microsoft, and could have written some of the manuals, likely in an entertaining style. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Given his record, though, he'd have as likely put all his money on Gavilan or GRiD. PhGustaf (talk) 02:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I recall that MT nearly bankrupted himself in trying to develop an automatic typsetting machine for the printing industry. Which suggests he would have got heavily involved in computers and the internet. 92.28.254.198 (talk) 11:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Twain could be said to have anticipated online relationships, including romantic ones, in his 1878 story, The Loves Of Alonzo Fitz Clarence And Rosannah Ethelton, in which the protagonists, one in Maine and the other in California, conduct most of their relationship, encounter difficulty, and eventually marry--via telephone. --- OtherDave (talk) 03:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

data on social class in UK

I am looking for data on social class in UK in recent years. I found the National Statistics Socio economic Classification [1], but I didn't find any data, how the distribution for the british people is. --79.253.157.155 (talk) 20:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

This all depends on what you mean by class. The word is used with a variety of different meanings in the UK. The definition[2]or[3]for which you will find statistics is that of the Registrar General (See our article: Social structure of the United Kingdom). I'm searching for the stats. There is some historical data for England here [4]. It is out of date, but it is clear that the numbers in classes 1 & 2 will have increased considerably, and the number in class 3 will have decreased. Dbfirs 21:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that the most recent data will be that from the 2001 census, which is now very out of date - it is not the sort of information for which intercensal estimates would have any validity. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

There are some 2006 estimates here [5], but I don't know how accurate they are. Dbfirs 22:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Try looking in www.statistics.co.uk, searching on NS-SEC. If you can't find national tables to download, then phone National Statistics on Monday. Someone there will be pleased to help. Itsmejudith (talk) 01:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Why are barns red?

Why are barns commonly painted red? I know that it is now a tradition, but where did that tradition come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.40 (talk) 22:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Atlanta Georgia, apparently. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on that answer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.40 (talk) 23:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

In the olden days red paint was easy to make. (You can't leave your barn unpainted, it'll rot faster.)

By the time farmers had started buying their paint from the store, red was sort of a tradition. And now a barn would almost look strange any other color.

I don't see what Atlanta has to do with it. It's mostly a northeast custom.

[6]

APL (talk) 23:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I was seeking to circumvent the "where in the world does this phenomenon occur?" question and answer sequence. I'm unfamiliar with red barns in my country and the next 20 or so countries to the south and east. I presume this is a US-centric question on an international reference desk? --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to be gnomic and pissy, why even bother answering? If you know nothing about the subject, and can't be bothered to put it into Google, then why not just keep quiet, rather than using it as an opportunity to confuse someone who was in good faith trying to ask a perfectly decent question? Why give a bad answer when you can just give no answer? If such a question irritates you so, why not just ignore it and move on? --Mr.98 (talk) 03:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose it is a U.S. centric question. I didn't remember any red barns in England, however my experiance there was limited. So... yes, I suppose this would be a question regarding the rural traditions of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.40 (talk) 23:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

In Sweden barns (and many other wooden buildings) were traditionally painted with Falu Red, a paint derived from the residue left after the copper was extracted during mining at Store Koppaberget. It was found to be extremely good at preserving the wood. Perhaps this custom was carried over by Swedish settlers to the US. Mikenorton (talk) 23:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Red paint was cheap and effective: see red lead. Note that red was also the default color for railroad cars, for the same reasons. PhGustaf (talk) 23:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Google /why barns red/ for several theories on the matter. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the search hint, Mwalcoff. It did the trick. I previously tried the search without the forward-slashes and only got a list of restrauants and historic sites. The Swedish settlers idea has some merit as well as the phenominum occurs largely in their migration pattern across the country. However it also follows the German settler's migrations as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.40 (talk) 00:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Um, the forward slashes don't actually do anything. I only put them there because had I put the search terms in quotation marks, someone might have used quotation marks in Google, and that would mess up the search. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

So, what does Atlanta, Georgia have to do with the answer at all? I'm still not clear on that point. Dismas|^(talk) 01:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

That's where the OP's IP geolocates to. Presumably Tagishsimon was conveying that the question "Where did that tradition come from?" referred to a tradition that, although familiar to the OP, was not familiar to him/her and would not be familiar to many other readers of the page. Deor (talk) 02:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I normally use 'single quotes'. The OP could still mistake that as an intention to search with the quote marks which may screw up the search somewhat (I don't know whether more or less then slash, with my test it doesn't make much diff) but at least it won't be intepreted as search for phrase at least with most search engines I know of. Nil Einne (talk) 03:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The red lead idea is a bit of a red herring as it was not cheap to produce (it got made from expensive white lead). In olden days and still by present day artists, these barn colours were simple known under the collective name of ochre. In the 18 c chemists started synthesise them from iron compound to get a wider range. The formation of large paint manufactures lead to each manufacturer giving these colours their own proprietary names. The traditional version of ochre popular in any given location, is simply down to which ever ochre was cheapest in that locality. Paint of this type is easy to make, so no point in transporting it in from afar. --Aspro (talk) 12:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I must say, having lived in rural America, white painted barns outnumber red painted barns by probably 2 to 1 in the areas I am familiar with. Colors other then red or white are practically non-existent. Googlemeister (talk) 15:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Right. With barns being utilitarian, you didn't spend more on them than necessary. So until the advent of cheap paint, barns weren't painted so much as whitewashed. Which gives you a white barn, or if you're fancy and add iron oxide (e.g. rust or red ochre) to the whitewash, red. -- 174.24.216.113 (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)