Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 October 30

Welcome to the Wikipedia Miscellaneous Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

October 30

Validating References when you have created the subject

I am the creator of the Australian Mist Cat Breed and would like to add Reference material to the article, but it appears that all the material I can list falls outside the specifications - in that it is self published. However, I could be considered to be the 'expert' as I hold the full archives of the breed origin which is the resource used in creating these publications. Can I add this material? History, Development, Analysis & Understanding of the AUSTRALIAN MIST BREED STANDARD by Truda M Straede BSc PhD 2005 ISBN 0 9586036 2 6 Spotted Mist 1986-1996 Edited by Terry Goulden and John Greenaway, 1996, ISBN 0 646 28375 8 Cats in the Mist 1998 Edited by Anne Burrows and Truda Straede, 1998, ISBN 0 958 6036X

In accordance with Australian legal requirements, copies of all these publications are lodged with the National Library, Canberra ACT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ausmist (talk • contribs) 04:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I've added these to the literature section of the article [1] .. as you asked I guess you are already aware of WP:COI , Wikipedia:Verifiability , and the stuff about primary, secondary sources etc etc..

This appears to be non contentious, and I have assumed that the books are good primary sources about the breed. The article still needs references, but assuming that what it says is true - ie that it's an acceppted breed I don't see any problems.

Is that ok? A good place for references would be articles (written by third parties) in publications about cats eg "Australian Cat Breeders" or "Cat Breed International" etc (made up examples). Alternatively I assume there is an international organisation that keeps details of breeds - if they have a website or publish that might be a good source for references.) 77.86.42.103 (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way both fr:Australian_mist and pl:Kot_australijski_mist (french and polish wikipedia) have references from secondary sources, and from the standards bodies - these could be used in the article.77.86.42.103 (talk) 13:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

A self published work, even if you deposit a copy in the national library, does not sound like the reliable source needed to verify the material in an article, nor does it sound like the reliable and independent source needed to support notability. Edison (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed - but as creator of the breed the books would be primary sources and suitable for inclusion. There are plenty of secondary sources for referencing eg [2] [3] [4] 77.86.42.103 (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou - I understand now. How about "Cat World" by Desmond Morris? Ebury Press 1996 as a an article in a recognised publication? (Though at the time the breed was called Spotted Mist) Ausmist (talk) 04:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Yemen mail bombs

Is there anything on Wikipedia about this incident? I couldn't find an article or even a mention in several lists of incidents I checked. Rmhermen (talk) 20:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It gets a mention in Terrorism in Yemen and Pentaerythritol tetranitrate. Nanonic (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Also 2010 cargo plane bomb plot Nil Einne (talk) 03:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

What is the average age of onset of Alzheimer's disease?

(Note: Science Reference desk cannot be edited) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdbdba (talk • contribs) 20:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on Alzheimer's disease with a section on its Epidemiology that answers your question. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Abdbdba (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems to be around 75 for the general population,[5][6] 72.8 for the genetically predisposed.[7] Clarityfiend (talk) 00:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

... but much earlier for Early-onset Alzheimer's disease. Dbfirs 23:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

J-spd

What does J-spd stand for when the topic is an ankle-foot orthosis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jib-boom (talk • contribs) 20:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• Could it be SPD Secreted Protein Database at http://spd.cbi.pku.edu.cn? with the J belonging to previous word? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Time

A US show airs at 9pm EST. So that's 2am GMT, but in the UK tonight at 2am the clocks go back an hour for the end of British Summer Time. So the show is on at 1am? I'm confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.182.38 (talk) 21:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Right now in the United States, Standard Time is not being observed. Instead we have Daylight Time (i.e., Summer Time). People still ignorantly write "EST" when they mean "EDT". It is now EDT, or GMT-4, which means a show at 9 pm tonight will air at 1 am GMT or 2 am BST, which as you can see are identical at the moment when BST changes back to GMT. So watch the show at 2 am if you have not set your clock back or at 1 am if you have set your clock back before the show. Marco polo (talk) 23:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

As a note BST is always BST. The time in the UK may be either GMT or BST but the BST timezone doesn't change any more then the EST time zone Nil Einne (talk) 03:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

... except that BST doesn't exist (or rather, no-one uses it) for five months of the year. Dbfirs 09:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You could argue that about basically every single daylight saving timezone and quite a number of non daylight saving timezones too, e.g. NZST or even GMT (while not everying with UTC±0 has daylight saving time, the only place that calls it GMT AFAIK is the UK and this is supported by our article yet ironically some countries use it as a reference). The distinction between changing timezones and the timezones changing meaning is an important one since as long as you understand what you're comparing to working it out is trivial maths. Nil Einne (talk) 09:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It's my understanding that the UK is in the GMT timezone, and during the summer that timezone uses British Summer Time (BST) which is an hour ahead of GMT. I do not believe that there is a BST timezone (and Microsoft agrees with me, in its setting of the system clock). --Phil Holmes (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, BST is like EDT, just an offset from a timezone. Are there any "daylight saving timezones"? I thought they were all just offsets from the real timezones such as GMT and EST. If the UK implements current proposals to retain BST all year and rename it "British Standard Time", then it will become a timezone. Dbfirs 22:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

What does that mean? You mean that the UK will be on GMT+1 all year? Don't they understand that that's the same (in the long run) as being on GMT+0 all year, because people will change the (nominal) starting times of events? --Trovatore (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I think, but apparently the majority of my fellow countrymen are not capable of adjusting their rising time and the time of starting school or work, so the clock has to be adjusted to fool them. The proposal is to have "Double Summer Time" (two hours ahead of GMT) in summer, and "British Standard Time" (GMT+1) in winter. Thus Greenwich will never use its "mean time". Dbfirs 22:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

People do adjust, eventually; it just takes a while. That's why Spanish parties famously go on until 5 AM. By the Sun, it's at least an hour earlier than that; it's an artifact of Spain being artificially on Central European Time. --Trovatore (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Do they wait until the first signs of dawn to finish their party? Dbfirs 23:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It's worth remembering it's often not someone's choice. You often don't get a direct choice when you start work, you don't get a direct choice when stores shut, you don't get a direct choice when school starts. Someone, somewhere may have the ability to change eventually, but it's not likely to be so simple as your boss deciding to change since contracts etc would likely cause problems, And for example for only one party to change is likely to be problematic. The government could relatively easily I presume change the time for government schools, but mandating everyone should start and stop an hour later is likely to be far less palatable in those terms. Changing timezone or permanent daylight saving or whatever you want to call it is effectively doing the same thing, but in a more palatable way, whether or not it's a good thing. Having said that I somehow doubt it will happen. People propose it for many countries all the time. It's rare that something comes from it. Nil Einne (talk) 09:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps a poor choice of wording on my part since it's a matter of semantics. Regardless of whether you consider BST (and EDT, NZDT, UTC+07:20 etc) and GMT, EST, NZST as timezones or time offsets or whatever, the key point is GMT and BST always mean the same thing. The calculations between GMT and EST or BST and EST or GMT and EDT or BST and EDT are trivial. You do need to know which one would be appropriate to use at the given time but the calculations don't change. During part of the year the UK uses GMT, during another part of the year the UK uses BST. Effectively the time offsets/zones/whatevers of GMT and BST don't exist during different parts of the year, since no one observes them during those parts unless you count using GMT as a reference. In my opinion it's easier in this case to think of these as seperate timezones but if you prefer to think of GMT and BST as time offsets here (and make a distiction between GMT as a timezone and GMT as a time offset), it's up to you ultimately it doesn't change the main point. P.S. In case it wasn't clear, I'm more thinking of practicality in how you understand how to work with the time zones rather then legality of what's what. Nil Einne (talk) 09:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I do think of GMT as the time zone, and BST as the offset, but the point is minor. I agree with you on nearly all your other points, and it was with "tongue in cheek" that I suggested that my compatriots should just rise earlier. The other point on which I possibly disagree is that I think there is a significant chance that the UK will make BST (to be renamed British Standard Time) into a real timezone, abandoning GMT.

Medals

I am trying to find out more about the following medals, most of them are Armerican Military Medals, but what for specifically please, the last one was apparently won during WWII by a Pole against the Russians, any more info on any of these would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. P.S. bear with me I am trying to up load them but an still learning. Great thanks people I now know how to upload images and how to thumbnail them, great! So, my uncle was in the Vietnam conflict and got these medals, but what for? Does any one know? Or how would I find out, he is no longer with us, hence I have them. The 1939 medal, is another issue though. My grandfather fought in WWII, and brought back alot of memorabelia, such as this and a Reich war flag,see List of German flags I have all of these. Is legal to own Nazi memorabelia? As I have heard it is not legal. I own it, and have kept if for good reasons, eg so we never forget, and I am not planning on getting rid of it. Thanks people! I am most interested in the 1939 and the green eagle one please. I also have the American Flag that was given to my Aunt at his funeral, I think I have folded it correctly but is there any special way to store, all of these things for posterity. Thanks.

• 
  1
• 
  2
• 
  3
• 
  4
• 
  5
• 
  6
• 
  7

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.145.145 (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I've thumbnailed the image. I hope you don't mind but we don't need the image to be that big on the page. People can click through if they want to. Dismas|^(talk) 21:27, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the example image that just wasted space. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Theres still one missing, man! I hate technology! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.145.145 (talk) 21:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Have you had a look at Awards and decorations of the United States military which shows all the US military ribbons. MilborneOne (talk) 22:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Searching that list #1 is the Air Force Commendation Medal, #5 is the Joint Service Commendation Medal. MilborneOne (talk) 22:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Medal #6 is the Air Force Good Conduct Medal. MilborneOne (talk) 22:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

A google search for "Efficiency Honor Fidelity" shows that File:Medal III a.jpg (#6) is an Air Force Good Conduct Medal, as pictured in the infobox image of Good Conduct Medal. Deor (talk) 22:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Medal IV (shown as "2") is the Vietnam Service Medal. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Number 3 appears to be the reverse of the Air Force Commendation Medal, as shown here. Deor (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Medal 7 is the 1939 War Medal (pl:Medal Za udział w wojnie obronnej 1939), see [8] Nanonic (talk) 00:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The OP seems to be from the UK, at least judging by IP address. There is one point that wasn't addressed, and without getting into legal advice, I am curious whether the UK has any laws governing ownership of Nazi memorabilia. I have never heard of such a thing, but I don't live in the UK, so it's possible I wouldn't have. I do have a vague notion that it might be illegal in Germany. --Trovatore (talk) 22:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know not. (eg a shop where I live was selling the stuff - there was an outcry in the local rag - but not criminal action): the BBC has many stories on it [9] eg [10] 87.102.115.141 (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

In germany it's illegal to display a swastika amongst other things Swastika#Post-WWII_stigmatization_in_Western_countries, one result is this [11]: German law prohibits the wearing of a swastika, so in 1957 the West German government issued replacement Iron Crosses to World War II veterans with the swastika replaced by an Oak Leaf Clust.

It is (or was) illegal to have such things in Russia.87.102.115.141 (talk) 23:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Training crew

Modern ships have complex systems for power, control and propulsion. Suitably skilled crew are in short supply. I want to promote training courses for crew. This must be done in just a few statements that will be remembered in a presentation to a ship owner. Please suggest what I should say. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Not sure I understand what it is you want to say. Do you want to say it to the ship's owner, to the crew, or have the ship's owner say something to the crew? Would something like "training courses are required for everyone" suffice...? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It will be "a presentation to the ship's owner" who has to pay his crew and will lose a lot of money if they mess up by doing something stupid. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Shipowners rarely pay for crew training. That said, here are sites promoting courses for licensed and unlicensed personnel. Cheers. Haus^Talk 22:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

• You want us to write your marketing materials for you? No problem. I charge by the hour, or can refer you to several marketing agencies that do excellent work. → ROUX ₪ 22:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

E-mail me your references and I'll look them over. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Having no idea who you are, I would prefer not. In fact, I was trying to make a point: you are asking for a bunch of amateurs to write your marketing materials, which is not a sound business decision. Your better bet is to engage a marketing agency which specialises in the demographic you are trying to reach, and the image you are trying to convey. Proper consulting work of this nature should include your brand identity, mission statement, and full suite of materials related to the visual portion of that brand identity--logo, business cards, website (or at least the preliminary collateral involved in developing one), and so on. → ROUX ₪ 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Roux, no, "please suggest" means something different from "please write materials for me". If you claim to be a professional who charges money for their work, that means at least one of those reading this is not an amateur. Where do you get the idea that all the rest of a bunch of people whom you don't know are amateurs? Your "No problem" suddenly became "Big problem". Thank you for the business advice but don't ring me and I won't ring you. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly. What you want is business advice. Consider the following: the advice you are going to receive is coming from a bunch of amateurs for the most part (and in my case a former professional who has moved on to other things). Do you not think it will make more sense for your business to consult professionals? Crowdsourcing is not always the right way to go. → ROUX ₪ 19:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Wholesale cigarettes (UK)

How much do cigarettes cost in the UK at wholesale? --81.23.48.100 (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Booker's Cash and Carry have B&H Gold at £50.31 ex VAT for a case of 10 packs. DuncanHill (talk) 23:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that's wholesale though as ASDA for example has L&B (10x20) at £55.27 whereas Booker's Cash and Carry has them at £5.85 for a pack of 20 which works out more expensive--£58.50 for 200 --81.23.48.100 (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Booker's is wholesale - but on a small scale. They generally supply corner shops, offies, pubs and the like. Asda's buying power is vast, so they will be able to negotiate directly with manufacturers and obtain better proces. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The real cost includes a proportion of 5.4 million deaths in 2004 and the diversion of health care services from non-smokers. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Well said. 92.15.26.46 (talk) 15:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

And the saving of billions in pensions payments, as well as the excise duty, VAT, NIC, and income and corporation taxes contributed to the Exchequer, not to mention the savings in benefits because of the jobs created. DuncanHill (talk) 13:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

People going on rampages with machine guns would have similar effects - is that OK? 92.15.26.46 (talk) 15:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Possibly the most idiotic comment I've seen here in a long time. DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Cognitive dissonance by a smoker. 92.24.186.230 (talk) 21:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

This somewhat Malthusian topic, the tradeoffs between the lost economic productivity of prematurely dead smokers (and the cost of their dying) vs the savings made by not paying years of pensions (and the longer cost of their healthcare and later death) is the subject of Yes, Prime Minister episode "The Smoke Screen". I don't claim this as a reliable source, but it's an endless source of cheap debating points when one is being a contrarian. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 13:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The Treasury did do an internal paper in the 90's on the economic costs/benefits of smoking. Never published, as the results were politically unacceptable (basically, ban smoking and bankrupt the country. You have to wait about 25 years for any significant reduction in health costs, but in the meantime you have increased unemployment, loss of taxes, NICs and duty, and as soon as the reduced health costs do kick in the pension bill soars). DuncanHill (talk) 13:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)