Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 August 2

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August 2

Could you find better deals for these commercial kitchen items?

A campus organization is trying to build a new kitchen, and they need these items. Many of these items seem overpriced, so I wonder where the best prices are for each of them (after shipping & handling.)

http://kstatewesley.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/MENU-webv.pdf

(Note: They must be brand-new.)

Thanks in advance. --70.179.165.67 (talk) 06:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

By what criteria are they being judged as "overpriced." As someone who has worked in Facilities Management, which includes overseeing and maintaining the equipment of commercial catering operations, while I can't claim to be au fait with current industry pricing in another country, they don't strike me as unreasonable, though as in any competitive market one should indeed seek comparative quotes from multiple suppliers - in some contexts that is actually mandatory.

Commercial catering equipment has to be far more sturdy and durable than its domestic equivalent, and (at least in my country) is I believe usually made of particular (and expensive) grades of stainless steel, and with certain design specifications, in order to be able to meet regulatory standards of hygiene that do not apply in private domestic settings (where also one is not ordinarily prosecuted for lapses).

They may seem expensive as one-off capital purchases, but calculate how many meals they will be used for over their expected lifetimes, in contrast to those in a domestic kitchen. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.109 (talk) 09:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

There could be several strategies to reduce cost:

1) Buying used, of course, you said is out. But how about overstocked and discontinued items ? You can often buy such items on sale.

2) Where you shop is critical. Some of those items, like the microwave, could be had at discount stores like Walmart, probably for far less.

3) Brand names are important. Several brand names were specified, but do you really need those specific brands, or will cheaper alternatives do ?

4) Configuration matters. For example, you are likely to find two 4-burner stoves far cheaper than a single 8-burner stove, since the 4-burner stove is mass produced for consumers, and the 8-burner is not. Similarly, more, but smaller, coffee makers would be less expensive, and also more flexible, allowing small batches of coffee to be produced for small groups, and also would be less of a problem if one unit fails.

5) Materials effect cost. Does everything really need to have an stainless steel finish, or would painted steel be sufficient for the large items, and plastic for the small items ? StuRat (talk) 11:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

They sell commercial microwave ovens in Walmart? Nil Einne (talk) 02:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

No, but the link seemed to say they were going for something between a home kitchen and a commercial kitchen, so this seems like a good way to save some money. StuRat (talk) 03:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Not if it dies in 3 months and it isn't covered by the Walmart warranty because of how/where it was used Nil Einne (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I've never had a microwave die on me yet, although they do tend to run at reduced power after a decade or two. One other suggestion is to get one with knobs for power level and time, since those are far quicker to set than screwing with "data entry" on a keypad. I also tend to think that keypads won't last as long. Also, a pull handle to open the microwave (which might require that you fasten it to the counter) is more reliable that one with a push button to release. StuRat (talk) 19:01, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Those aren't unreasonable prices for commercial kitchen equipment. Assuming that this is, as you say, a campus kitchen that will be serving more than a few individuals, it will have to pass a health department inspection, which normally means that all equipment must be certified by a third-party organization such as the NSF for the health inspector to even countenance its installation. Your kitchen consultant can advise on details. I assume you've taken care of the infrastructure already? The single most expensive item will be the hood, which can easily run $15K for a new hood that can deal with grease-laden vapor from the range and steam from the convection oven, which has a fire-suppression system, a make-up air unit (or appropriate changes to the HVAC to supply the replacement air volume) and whose exhaust is arranged appropriately to reach a big commercial-grade exhaust fan outside. A used hood will still need a lot of labor and planning to install, requiring welded ductwork. Again, if you used a consultant as the flyer mentions, that should already have been planned for. Acroterion (talk) 14:12, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Puke Albania

The Wiki page for Puke which is a town in Albania that just says Puke. If it were changed to Puke Albania I think it would be much easier to find and serve to promote the town. Is it possible to change the title of the page to include Albania without starting a new history with a new page ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hennahenna (talk • contribs) 10:17, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's called a page move. Let me take a look at Puke. 68.79.93.3 (talk) 10:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

It's listed as Pukë District, which makes it clear they aren't talking about vomit, and all the other Districts of Albania are similarly labelled, so I wouldn't change it. 68.79.93.3 (talk) 10:24, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the OP is referring to Pukë. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I have added a redirect to Pukë to the Puke page. I don't think that adding the name of the country to the title of Pukë is necessary, since the umlaut makes it clear that the article refers to something other than vomit. Marco polo (talk) 13:58, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes while this is OT here and more suited to the WP:Help desk we generally only disambiguate e.g. by putting the country name in the article title if it's necessary i.e. the title could refer to at least 2 and preferably more different things. Pukë apparently only refers to one notable thing so the country name in the title is not necessary. Nil Einne (talk) 01:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

"The Three Graces", Liverpool

The three buildings on the Pier Head, Liverpool - the Royal Liver Building, the Cunard Building, and the Port of Liverpool Building - are now widely known as "the Three Graces". But when was that term first used for them? Online sources like this book don't seem to use that term any earlier than 2000, but on the article talk page there is a widespread opinion that the term was used locally for the three buildings much earlier, perhaps from the 1960s. Can anyone shed any light on this? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I searched a news archive (Nexis UK) for "three graces" + liverpool + cunard and didn't get any results before 2000. I checked the Times Digital Archive ("three graces" + cunard), but only got classifieds. I also had a quick check in UK Parliament archives (nothing pre-2005) and a few others with no success. The term does seem to have, at least, become much more prominent in the last decade, perhaps related to the Fourth Grace as suggested on the talk page or the Capital of Culture bid, which ramped up in 99/00? The Peoples' Archive section of the Liverpool Echo might be useful, but it's not working at the moment. Sorry - this isn't much use! --Kateshortforbob _talk 16:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Could Honda do an undo ?

The new Honda Civic is inferior in just about every way to it's predecessor, according to the critics: [1]. So, could they admit they made a mistake, and just go back to producing the previous model ? This isn't the first car to have such an issue. I recall that the Chevrolet Caprice was redesigned to look like a beached whale, and shortly thereafter discontinued. The Ford Probe, originally considered as a replacement for the Ford Mustang, was instead produced alongside that model.

1) So, if all the old designs and dies and such still exist, is there any reason Honda couldn't continue to produce that model ?

2) Another question would be about their pre-production market testing. That is, why don't they know they have a dog on their hands ahead of time, and stop throwing bad money after good ? StuRat (talk) 17:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

They should just make the European model the US model - it's a bit funky but generally seems to get a good review (e.g. http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/honda/civic-hatchback-2006.aspx) ny156uk (talk) 17:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Consumer Reports is not infallible. The car may sell well, confounding critics. Also, "pre-production market testing" is not infallible. Bus stop (talk) 17:28, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Did you mean that last link to just go to a diff on this question ? StuRat (talk) 17:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, just including the link for clarity. I didn't just mean this question, or this product—consumers are said to be "fickle". Market testing is occasionally very wrong in its predictions. Bus stop (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I was expecting your link to take me to examples where a product succeeded despite a negative critical reception. How does it clarify things to provide a link to my own question ? StuRat (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You are right, and I am removing my link. This article seems to mention the phenomenon. I had in mind the Aeron chair, which is mentioned. Skip down to the section containing the sentence: "In 'Blink', Gladwell gives another beautiful example of a product that didn't test well." I must admit I haven't thoroughly read it yet. Bus stop (talk) 17:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I can see a couple of categories where focus groups fail:

A) Novel products. Some products are just so different that they aren't accepted immediately, but, once a few brave souls try them out, people begin to accept them and sales start to take off.

B) Long-term versus short-term: They often only ask what the first impression is, such as the first bite of a food or sip of a drink. This can miss foods that have a bad after-taste, make you feel bad later, or have so much salt in them you have to stop eating before you are full.

The first of these failures doesn't seem to apply to the new Honda Civic, as it isn't a particularly novel design. The long-term versus short-term consideration might apply, although it's difficult to imagine a car getting much better with time, but only worse. StuRat (talk) 18:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

According to reviews, this model shows clear signs of cost cutting. Honda may be counting on coasting on the Civic's good reputation and making up for lower sales with lower costs. After all, lots of people do not check Consumer Reports, or any reviews for that matter. They have always bought a Civic, and they will buy one again assuming that the value is still there. Or, they buy one based on their father's or friend's experience-based but uninformed advice. Also, Honda may judge that sales volumes are going to fall anyway in the face of a weak economy and competition from Hyundai and other cheaper competitors, so they have decided to try to defend profits by cutting costs to boost their margin. Marco polo (talk) 20:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I wonder about the effectiveness of redesigning a car to be less expensive. The obvious problem with that is that the redesign and retooling is itself rather expensive, and this cost must be distributed among the vehicles produced. So, wouldn't they do better to just have stuck with the old design, not pay all those costs, and hopefully lower the cost of the old model, since it's design and tooling costs have been paid down already ? (Just hindsight at this point, as it's too late to avoid the redesign and retooling costs now. Also, if Honda wanted to avoid lay-offs in the design staff, they would have needed to find other work for them.) StuRat (talk) 20:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Stu—this is excerpted from the link you earlier posted:

"Personally, I almost purchased a 2011 Civic hybrid, but walked because I couldn't stand the starship Enterprise dash, rife with garish electric blue and green LED panels and display metrics. Call me old-fashioned, but when I'm vectoring a multi-ton hunk of metal down the interstate, I want my attention on the road, not fiddling with fuel efficiency readouts or selecting dashboard "wallpapers.""[2]

The above suggests to me that Honda is targeting a younger part of the market. Honda may be trying to sell to those younger people moving upmarket from a less expensive automobile. Bus stop (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

That might be the idea, but then they should have styled it differently, perhaps a "cute" look like the VW Beetle. StuRat (talk) 22:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

U S Congressman Joe Pool

Was he married? Did he have children and if so what were their names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chamberjoe (talk • contribs) 19:48, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

If there is nothing about it in Joe R. Pool, maybe you could do some research to supply that bit of missing info? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I tried doing a bit of research and failed. The best source would probably be his obituary. He certainly would have had an obituary in The Dallas Morning News a day or two after his death, but its obituary archive requires the payment of a fee for access, and I don't personally want to spend $10 on this. Marco polo (talk) 20:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Chances are, however, that some Wikipedian has already spent the ten dollars and could look it up for you, or email you a copy of the article. I've had some luck with Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange for this purpose. --Jayron32 21:58, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

"Surviving are his widow, the former Elizabeth Chambless, and four sons, Richard, Wesley, John and Joe Jr." -- From The New York Times obit in Google News Archive. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:02, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Individual US Congress members' votes

Where can I find the names of the members of the US Congress who vote for or against a particular piece of legislation? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

You can check the Congressional Record. For example, here is a page listing recorded votes for specific bills by date during 2011. Marco polo (talk) 20:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

But a better source is here. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:43, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks, guys. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 20:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Possible careers?

hello, I recently did a quiz and they said my top 6 recommended college majors were:

1. Atmospheric science
2. Physics
3. Environmental studies
4. Astronomy
5. Civil engineering
6. Oceanography

Can anyone think of a career that would use the most of these subject areas in its scope but not necessarily as majors? thanks in advance

99.250.177.102 (talk) 23:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Eco-warrior? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Environmental Scientist, focusing on the implementation of Floating wind turbines is what came to my mind. Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 23:39, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Building bridges over the sea might touch on all areas except astronomy (although I suppose that is involved to some degree in figuring the tides). StuRat (talk) 00:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I have a friend that studies climatology at the University of North Carolina and his specific field of study is of aerosolization over ocean water. Basically, the formation of aerosols (microscopic water droplets) over oceans as an effect on things like the water cycle, as an effect distinct from simple evaporation. It's the sort of thing that PhD climatologists study, and it seems to hit at least 4 of your areas of study. Perhaps climatology would be a way to go for you... --Jayron32 01:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

If The Great Architect needs an understudy, I think you'll be in with a chance ;-) No, seriously, something in the environmental science field sounds perfect. It partly depends on your objectives though. Do you want to make lots of money, or live an interesting life? There is no guarantee of either, regardless of what you study, but vulcanologists for example tend not to become millionaires, and town planners tend not to win Nobel prizes (at least, I hope not). AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Speaking from personal experience, I can assure you that town planners tend not to become millionaires either. But we are very nice people. ;-) Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

And while town planners don't win Nobel Prizes, Community Organizers do. Googlemeister (talk) 21:00, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

And volcanologists are occasionally burned alive while loitering on active volcanoes. I tend to view that as one of the more negative aspects of the job. StuRat (talk) 04:14, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Bah, minor details ;-). Maybe some sort of Environmental Technology program? We have that at NC State (I may have gotten the major name wrong), but I don't know much about the program. I don't know, I think that a lot of the things that encompass most of those skills are major projects with specialists in each field. There might be something though. Start a college program that sounds genuinely interesting (and even better, talk to some advisors and see what they recommend), and keep your eyes out for opportunities. I have learned about opportunities for my degrees that I would never have even thought of, partly because of my classes, but mainly because I got to see what people are doing with them, and have been immersed in the culture that surrounds each degree (and yes, each major attracts its own sort of people :-)). Falconus^{p t c} 04:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Another good suggestion for you might be meteorology. It doesn't involve all 6 interests, but it matches your top interest with several others. Marco polo (talk) 13:24, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Throwing in a lateral thought - sometimes important new fields of research have arisen from the under-researched areas where two (or more?) traditionally separate fields came close together or overlapped, or where the techniques established in one were novelly applied in another. You might give some thought as to what those overlaps might be amongst your several areas of interest, choose your major and other courses of study accordingly, and have an outside shot at becoming the "Father of X-onomics or Y-ology", or at least get in at the ground floor of an emerging new discipline. It would probably help if you could arrange some informal discussions with grad students in the relevant subjects, as they'll have a finger on the pulse of the latest, perhaps as-yet-unpublished developments. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.52 (talk) 21:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm surprised no one suggested working for NASA (unless I missed it) or maybe NOAA, or companies in the same lines of work in the private sector. Building spacecraft in which parts fall into the ocean after liftoff would kind of meet all 6, right? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Side note: Many students change majors during college, and many graduates end up working in a field other than what they majored in. This article says half of all US students who do declare a major upon entering college change their major at some point. The article's angle is that this is a bad, expensive thing; but I would argue that part of college is taking a lot of classes in a lot of different areas, and to find what it is you really want to do. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)