Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 January 21

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January 21

Wessex and related topics

One thing I have never understood, why was it after the kingdom of Wessex had assimilated Wight and the other Saxons, joined in personal union with Kent and gone to war with Mercia, the resultant country came to be called England even thoguh the Angles were always the enemies? Surely this should now be West Saxony or some such? At the same time, would the Saxons here have had any connection with or inherent loyalty to the people of the original Duchy of Saxony?

Whilst we're on the subject, a while ago I asked a few questions regarding the Battle of Hastings, but there was one I forgot and just remembered. Supposing after the battle one of the many rebellions had somehow succeeded and ousted king William, who might have succeeded him as king, would they have gone to bring Edgar back, or looked for Harold's eldest surviving son?

Another thing I have realised recently, I have been living in Wessex for more than two years and in that time only seen the one Wyvern, on the back of a van, whilst back in Kent there were pictures of Horses everywhere. Is there a particular reason for this? How is it in other parts of the country?

148.197.121.205 (talk) 10:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Re the naming of England, there is an interesting and authoritative article by George Beech here, which suggests that the name "Englaland" was a deliberate attempt to describe the whole of the territory occupied by the Angles and Saxons, including the Danelaw, and was popularised by the writer Ælfric of Eynsham in the 990s (though our article doesn't mention that). It was then taken up by Cnut, whose aim was to unify the area. Beech writes: "While there is no doubt about the novelty of the name in written records when Aelfric of Eynsham first brought it into his writings, nor that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicler C and Cnut’s entourage made it the standard name for the country after 1014, we can only speculate about the royal reasons for adopting the name....I believe it was the deliberate decision of Cnut and his advisers as part of their program at the beginning of the reign to unite a Danish and English population divided by war. The royal circle did not create it [Englaland] but did make it the standard country name and promoted its adoption throughout the land." Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:51, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Ghmyrtle's answer above, but I remember reading somewhere (I'm blessed if I know where) that people rather liked being compared to angels - Non Angli, sed angeli see Pope Gregory I#Famous quotes and anecdotes - and that rather influenced the choice of name. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Re the question of the "ousting of William", the Normans after 1066 took over the administration of the country very quickly. Had William himself been killed, the throne would have been contested by his sons, Robert Curthose, Richard, Duke of Bernay (if the rebellion was before his death in 1081), and William Rufus (who eventually did become king). But, if a wider English revolt had overthrown the whole Norman government, in theory the Witenagemot might have been re-established, and might well have confirmed Edgar as king. It's quite plausible that Harold's sons Godwine and Edmund may have contested that, but sources suggest that after 1069 they were in Ireland (after being defeated at Exeter) and seem to have vanished from history. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Harold's sons Harold and Ulf were also still alive; Harold was at the Danish court, and Ulf in captivity in Norway. Warofdreams talk 17:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention Skuli Tostisson Kongsfostre and Ketil Tostisson, the sons of Tostig Godwinson, though they were young, and probably tainted by their father's rebellion. Corvus cornix_talk 21:19, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

And re Kent and Wessex, Kent has been a coherent unit (albeit with some boundary changes) uninterruptedly since the 5th century or so. Wessex did not exist as a unit after the 10th century, when the area was divided administratively into its constituent counties (which pre-date the conquest). So, although the Wessex wyvern is used in county coats of arms and the like, and has been adopted by groups like the Wessex League, it doesn't have the same coherent uninterrupted history, except for a tiny minority. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:13, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Country map with dots?

Is there a version of this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BlankMap-World6.svg with small countries at dots that is also in the public domain? --CGPGrey (talk) 15:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

If you can't find one, it can probably be easily made. You could ask around at the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps or find a regular there. I have a cartographer I use at Wikipedia when I need maps, but I don't know if he does maps like that exactly. There are lots of good mapmakers, and your request is simple enough I don't see why it couldn't be done. If you do get it created, it may be useful in an article like microstate. --Jayron32 17:15, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Tornadoes in Kansas

I've searched for literally hours and can't find a single reliable source saying how many tornadoes occur in Kansas per year. Infoplease.com uses http://www.spc.noaa.gov/ as a reference, but I can't find the material there either. So, how many tornadoes occur in Kansas per year, and where is the material referenced to? Albacore (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Hows this Tofutwitch11 ^(TALK) 00:09, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks to me as though the answer (for 1953–2004, at least) is an average of 55 per year. Deor (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2011 (UTC)