Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 February 11

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February 11

Hopping a freight

In Nazi Germany and German-occupied countries during World War 2, what security measures (if any) were in place to stop people from catching rides on freight trains? (I'm sure they had some kind of measures in place, because that would have been a great way for guerrillas to move around the country and evade capture). 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:02, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Soldiers yanking them off and shooting them in the face would probably have done it. --Jayron32 02:04, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Sure enough, but did they systematically check the trains for stowaways, and if so, in what manner? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

This is the responsibility of the train guard in Europe. Itsmejudith (talk) 02:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! That's what I hoped to hear. (And of course, the French/Belgian/Dutch/etc. train guards [conductors?] would only perform a perfunctory check, most of the time, right?) 24.23.196.85 (talk) 04:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

It might be worth pointing out that the WP article on freighthopping is written from a wholly American perspective and I'd suggest that in this instance this is because the practice is primarily American. The image of hobos leaping onto a slow-moving train and hitching a ride in a boxcar is a familiar one to me from US books and movies, but I can think of relatively few European examples from fiction. There also doesn't seem to be a European equivalent to the hobo. Someone with a better knowledge of rail transport than me may wish to comment on this, but my perception is that North American freight trains can often be quite slow-moving and that North American tracks are often easily accessible running through open areas without fencing or embankments or cuttings. This permits multiple points of access to the trains - in addition to the freight yards - for those who want to scramble aboard and stow away. European railways are more likely to be fenced off (in my experience) or more difficult to access due to physical geography (cuttings, embankments, position running at the back of private land etc.). I'm also of the impression that European trains are more likely to move quickly once away from the goods yard, leaving goods yards as the main place to access them. I am assuming that, in wartime, goods yards would have been well-guarded. I'm assuming also that the movie image of someone hopping a train in North America and climbing up into a boxcar with an already open door has some basis in reality. My observation of modern European trains - I cannot speak for those in the 1940s - is that goods vans usually have closed doors with some form of lock! So the practice of guarding goods yards and keeping goods wagons closed would have been fairly straightforward ways to avoid anyone "hopping a freight" in wartime Europe. Valiantis (talk) 05:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I can assure you that freight train hopping is not merely an American phenomenon. During the 1930's depression, in Australia, it was a common way to travel. Some folk still did it in the 1960's. Freight trains move slowly, because it saves considerably on fuel, eliminates a lot of wear on bogies and tracks, and track maintenance becomes non-critical. And freight normally doesn't have things to do and doesn't get bored on long trips. In the depression, train crews tended to be sympathetic to to hobos getting a free ride - a matter of "there but for the grace of God go I". Box cars were not normally locked. I imagine similar things happened in other countries, for the same reasons - i.e., out of work and travelling to find it, or at least a new source of handouts. Wickwack 121.221.223.185 (talk) 04:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The French resistance had a network among railway workers, but their main task was to blow up trains and, where possible, lines and bridges. They did not move around the country by stowing away on trains. That would have invited capture, followed by torture and the revealing of secrets. The Nazi occupied countries were very heavily policed, not least by the SS. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:02, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I think Valiantis has got this right. Most of the WWII escape stories I have read, where train travel was used, see escapers travelling in passenger carriages, usually having purchased a ticket (using either fake money sent in parcels from home, or money bartered with guards for cigarettes or chocolate). The reason is probably like Valiantis says, that in Europe it's more difficult to get on to a train whilst it's moving, and that when freight trains are not moving they would be in a defended freight-yard. Given the choice between trying to outwit a civilian ticket collector, who would likely be unarmed, or a bunch of machine-gun wielding soldiers guarding a rail yard, I'd suggest that the former would be the more attractive prospect. That's not to say, however, that escapees didn't try to 'ride the rails' - I definitely recall reading about someone trying it, but I can't recall which story I saw it in right now. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

In France, all boxcars (or "goods wagons" if you're British) were built to a standard design, which could be used by the military in time of war. Each had a sign stencilled on the outside; "hommes : 40, chevaux en long : 8" ("40 men or 8 horses lengthways").[1] If memory serves, there was a big steel locking bar on the door. Alansplodge (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! So, the sum total of this is, once that E-boat hits that mine, my characters won't be able to hop a freight out of Brittany, as originally planned. (I thought about having them stow away while that Lorient-Cologne mixed freight was standing on a siding, but the Quimper-Rennes line has double tracks throughout.) And that means they'll have to steal a truck or something.  :-( 24.23.196.85 (talk) 00:26, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you're writing a story, it's your story and your rules. For realism, though, I'd avoid the characters stowing away on a train American-hobo style. Actually, I'd also avoid them stealing a truck - most of the available trucks would be under German control, so stealing one would be a sure fire way of getting a bunch of angry, gun-wielding Wehrmacht on their tail. A better idea might be to steal a bicycle, which is less conspicuous and would not generate such a hulabaloo if stolen. Alternatively, if you need them to travel quickly, they could jump into a train from a bridge - either into a freight wagon or the coal tender of a passenger locomotive. The only problem then would be how to get out again - perhaps if they jumped into the coal tender they could get out when the fireman is preoccupied with taking on water, preferably at a small, out of the way place, in the dark.

You could maybe also try reading a few escape stories, to see how 'the pros' did it. A good place to start might be Great Escape Stories by Eric Williams (writer), which has a number of short stories from WWII. Williams himself participated in the Wooden Horse escape, but this book contains many other stories of escape and evasion. You'll probably find the stories of escape from 'standard' camps better for your purpose than stories about Colditz Castle - escapes from Colditz were somewhat atypical in that the camp was a long way behind German lines, and the length of time a typical prisoner might spend there encouraged much more elaborate escape plans, involving disguise and counterfeit documents. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 13:21, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a million, Cucumber! I can't have them steal a bicycle because there's too many of them (twelve men and one woman, and two of them are sick/wounded), but I sure can have them hop into a freight car from a bridge, as you suggested (the healthy guys jumping first, and then catching the sick/wounded guys). As for how to get out again, perhaps they could cut a hole in the car floor, and then slide out of it onto the tracks while the train is moving slowly (Solzhenitsyn wrote about an old man who escaped from a gulag in just such a manner in The Gulag Archipelago). What do you think? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 03:34, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

They are clearly near the coast (the E-boat blew up) - so could they steal a boat instead? Maybe even stow away on one? I doubt that a small fishing boat would be guarded all that well. Is there a convenient river near their destination? SteveBaker (talk) 14:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Too far -- they have to cross all of France from Lorient to their next objective in Lille (and one of them is seriously sick, which I can do nothing about because it's an important plot element). They need a quicker form of transportation than a fishing boat which can only make five to ten knots at the most, and which would have to round Brittany and the Cotentin Peninsula before it can even assume a straight course toward the objective. Plus, stealing a fishing boat was their original plan (but they were betrayed and found an ambush waiting for them at the pier, so they had to take over an E-boat instead) -- I don't want them to steal a second boat right after the first. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 06:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Then it's clearly time to steal an aging Junkers Ju 52 that's rusting away in the corner of a nearby airfield and reveal that one of the team was a former pilot with Swissair in the 1930's. Since he's flown this type of aircraft a million times before and is a genius mechanic who spent many an hour tinkering with the engines while stuck in distant alpine airstrips - he can obviously get it minimally airworthy in a matter of hours if the rest of the team can only steal a few key parts and some fuel. I believe that plane is just large enough to get your crew in there. Of course it's not going to stay aloft for long before something fails in a more or less terminal fashion and they have to put the thing down someplace short of their destination...but that's life - right? SteveBaker (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, one of them is a pilot with the US Army Air Force who had been shot down over enemy lines just a few days before. And another one is a trucker, so he would probably be good at field repairs, too. (BTW, these two characters hate each other's guts -- but I won't tell you why.  ;-) Your idea sounds pretty good -- maybe first steal an E-boat, then a plane, and then hop a train after the plane crashes? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 02:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, though, a Ju-52 would not have been obsolete at the time, and would not be "rusting away in the corner of a nearby airfield" -- in fact, it would probably be mobilized for the war effort, so stealing it would run into the same kind of potential problems as stealing a truck (only more so). On the other hand, perhaps some old French clunker of a Wibault 280 might be stealable without attracting too much attention? 24.23.196.85 (talk) 22:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

history of human experimentation in the usa

I am looking for all the information relating to human experimentation in the united states only, where would I locate all of this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.146.165 (talk) 16:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I searched, and found that Wikipedia has two articles that I think will be helpful to you. Human subject research is not US-exclusive, but does contain information about human experimentation in the United States. There's also Unethical human experimentation in the United States. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:25, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how to interpret the Q. Do you mean experimentation on humans by others, as FisherQueen took it, or experimentation by humans on themselves, or some other type of experimentation done by humans ? StuRat (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

White lube powder ?

I have a sliding/folding closet door which binds up at the bottom, so would like to lubricate it. Unfortunately, there's white shag carpet both inside and outside the closet, so any dark lubricants, like graphite powder, are out. I could use white grease or wax, but that would pick up dust in time and become dark, then stain the carpet. So, I was thinking some type of white lubricant powder might be best. Would talcum powder work ? Any other suggestions ? StuRat (talk) 17:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Not enough info. Is there metal a rail/track with a slider mechanism on the bottom,top, or both? Using talc is probably a bad idea, it will attract moisture and get gooey, not lubricate. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Plastic slider in metal track. Top is metal slider in metal track, and it doesn't bind up there, as the weight is on the bottom, and friction is higher at the bottom, too. StuRat (talk) 17:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, then my first line of attack would be to diagnose the problem. Lube of any sort will not fix the problem, only treat the symptoms. The most likely scenarios are: 1) bottom track is no longer straight or "true", either in the main shape, or the flanges. You could inexpensively replace the track, or pull it out and try to straighten it. 2) Door frame is no longer true. You probably can't fix that if you are asking this question, but you may be able to get clever with some planing, sanding, or wedges. 3) Build up of dust/dirt in the track. Simple cleaning with a few drops of oil (or ski wax) may help. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:46, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually I know the problem, but fixing it the "right way" isn't an option. Here are diagrams (top view):

HALF OPEN (CURRENT DESIGN):

 Fixed
 Pivot    Slider
 o==========o======= Rail
  \        /
   \ Doors/ 
    \    /    
     \  /
     +\/+ Handles

FULLY OPEN (CURRENT DESIGN):

 oo================= Rail
 || 
 || 
 || Doors   
 ||
+||+ Handles

The problem here is that when fully opened, the angle from the handle to the rail is too much, so that most of the force is trying to move the slider at a right angle to the rail, rather than along it. Adding a handle closer to the rail would fix this:

HALF OPEN (WITH ADDITIONAL HANDLE):

 Fixed
 Pivot    Slider
 o==========o======= Rail
  \        /+ New Handle
   \ Doors/ 
    \    /    
     \  /
     +\/+ Handles

FULLY OPEN (WITH ADDITIONAL HANDLE):

 oo================= Rail
 ||+ New Handle
 || 
 || Doors   
 ||
+||+ Handles

However, it's my mom's house, and she doesn't want that. So, reducing friction is the next best option. StuRat (talk) 18:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

WD-40? That'd be my choice. See also Dry lubricant, particularly Hexagonal boron nitride, also known as 'white graphite'. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:20, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Do home improvement stores carry boron nitride, or would I have to buy it online ? StuRat (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

No idea. I'd never heard of it until 15 minutes ago. However, it seems that it is a tad expensive, running at €117 for 50g. Having said that, I found it available on Amazon at a more sensible price - $10 for 0.4oz. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:57, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Aha - got it! What you want is Panef powdered white lubricant - "For use on metal, wood, plastic, rubber and leather. Ideal for many applications including: windows, door locks, sliding tracks, cabinets and zippers." Available from Sears. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks good. But before I buy it, do we know that it's better than talcum powder ? StuRat (talk) 19:16, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's worth trying talcum powder (I've used cheap talc in similar situations), but you will probably have to keep topping it up. I assume you've checked that the rail is clear of debris and fibre from the carpet, and that the plastic slider hasn't become deformed. If the door is painted or polished, then you might be able to add a suction-cup handle as a temporary measure without marking the door. Some adhesives claim to be removable without leaving a mark. Try these alternatives at your own risk since I don't want to be responsible for incurring parental wrath. Dbfirs 18:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

The suction cup handle might work, I'll see if I can find one. Of course, lubricant would still help, even with the new handle. StuRat (talk) 18:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Avoid the WD 40 on plastic. That powdered white lubricant sounds good. I've used silicon grease in plastic hinges before. You only need a tiny amount. Dmcq (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

SemanticMantis mentioned ski wax and I think that's a good idea. I would try rubbing an appropriately whittled-down paraffin candle onto the surface. The paraffin coating may act as a lubricant. Bus stop (talk) 01:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so far, everyone. I'll put talcum powder on first, and see if that does the trick. If not, then I think I'll try the powder from Sears. If it still needs more lube, I'll try wax. StuRat (talk) 01:58, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

A trick to assembling tight fitting mitered corners for stretcher bars is to first rub wax on the areas of the wood that have to fit together, hence I consider the wax (paraffin) a lubricant. Bus stop (talk) 02:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

In addition to lubrication, that might also fill in gaps to keep a loose frame from rattling. StuRat (talk) 02:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Collapsed assorted off-topic rudeness.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I keep having these thoughts that this question is StuRat's subtle, roundabout way of telling us about the closet he's out of (well, he's not in it, unless his computer's in there, so he must be out of it; it's obvious when you think about it). I've resisted sharing these thoughts here so far, but I wonder how long I'll be able to keep on resisting.  :) -- Jack of Oz [[User talk:JackofOz#top|<font face=" Stu has a "shag carpet"?! Most people use a bed. I have never heard of anyone having a specific carpet for it. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 03:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC) What Stu probably hasn't mentioned yet is that it is the squeaking sound of the opening and closing door is driving him crazy, hence the need to lubricate the bugger. Bus stop (talk) 03:44, 12 February 2013 (UTC) Of course! He's looking for lube recommendations! How could I have missed that clue? Gzuckier (talk) 06:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Powdered teflon used to be available in those little squeezy tubes for locks, as an improvement over graphite; I haven't seen it sold as such for a while, so of course now i hoard it every time I see it, which is sold as lubricant for those (US) boy scout wooden car race project items, (at Michaels crafts stores (in the US) is where I see it). Kind of hit or miss finding it there too, so maybe it's bad for you or something. Talcum powder is a decent lube, its Achilles heel is that it absorbs humidity and gets sticky. Gzuckier (talk) 06:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not to disagree with any of the above, but you might also try spraying clear furniture polish on the track: I've found this to work excellently on curtain rails when the sliding curtain hooks start to bind up. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 14:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Another thought: I'd guess the sticking slider is rectangular; file it into an elliptical shape, or at least round the corners off, to convince it to slide instead of digging in. Gzuckier (talk) 15:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

How about candle wax (from a white candle of course)? Astronaut (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

UPDATE: Tried talcum powder, and it's not enough. The door vibrates back and forth when attempting to close it, but not when opening it. I may try candle wax next, then boron nitride, and perhaps rounding off the edges (although that would require removing the door). StuRat (talk) 05:48, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Side question for Stu--How'd you make 'em diagrams?

Did you actually sit there and compose those fixed-width character diagrams by hand, or do you have a program that helps do that? μηδείς (talk) 04:09, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I composed it manually. ASCII art isn't that hard, once you're used to it. Before I was able to write programs with real pixel graphics, I did quite a bit of this type. It can still be useful to display a low res image, say of a graph, to check it before rendering it. StuRat (talk) 04:12, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to prove how far this can go, watch this. These guys did this in a text editor. --Jayron32 04:35, 12 February 2013 (UTC)