Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 June 30

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June 30

Does or did Lovell, Florida ever exist?

Myself and Tails Wx have been creating an article about tornadoes in 1945 and came across a source from the United States Weather Bureau saying a tornado struck “Lovell, Florida” on March 20, 1945. After searching, I found that Lowell, Florida exists, but also there seems to be a school and a few businesses with “Lovell” as part of their name near Orlando. I haven’t been able to find if an unincorporated community ever existed in Florida under the name “Lovell”. Any help would be appreciated! I also can’t necessarily check with the US Weather Bureau to see if it was a typo since this document was also from 1945 and the modern day National Weather Service only keeps records starting in 1950. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 00:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest looking at newspapers from Florida from 1945. --142.112.221.43 (talk) 00:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Fantasy mapping site

Is there any free fantasy modern-style mapping site for personal use? At least on OpenStreetMap software, like OpenGeofiction, would be good such site if exists. --40bus (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "fantasy modern-style mapping". Are you looking for something like Inkarnate, that lets you draw fictitious maps? CodeTalker (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Like OpenGeofiction, but where you completely go the mapping for yourself for entire world. And are there any city map generators that are otherwise like Watabou Medieval Fantasy City Generator, but for modern cities? --40bus (talk) 13:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Are there Hindu Monotheists?

Are there Hindu Monotheists? What is their history? Are they followers of Sikhism or are they a separate group?

Thanks. 2A10:8012:F:F548:69D6:D35E:8662:340 (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Hinduism#Definition states Hindus can be polytheistic or monotheistic. (News to me.) Clarityfiend (talk) 01:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

See also God in Hinduism. Also Sikhism is a monotheist religion that has its roots in Hinduism; see Hinduism and Sikhism. Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It is also an issue of how one defines "monotheism" and even "god". Some (non-Christian) scholars do not consider Christianity to be a truly monotheistic religion, because in Christian doctrine the supreme being is not a single person. Several Hindu denominations (Shaivism, Shaktism, Smartism, Vaishnavism) recognize a single supreme being; other residents of the pantheon, even though commonly referred to as "gods" (deities), are subservient, just like angels in the Abrahamic religions, which may likewise be worshipped.  --Lambiam 12:22, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Um, do you want to re-word the last bit? I'm not sure quite what you meant. In any mainstream interpretation of the major Abrahamic religions, it's a big mistake to worship angels. I'm sure there are exceptions somewhere. I think Jehovah's witnesses identify Jesus with Michael; I'm not sure whether that means they worship Michael or they don't worship Jesus. --Trovatore (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The first definition of the verb worship given by Wiktionary is: "To reverence (a deity, etc.) with supreme respect and veneration". The veneration of some Saints by some Christians equals their veneration of God, so why can this not be called (by outsiders) "worship", as is in fact regularly done – just do a Google Books search for "worship of Maria", "worship of the Virgin", "worship of Michael" or "worship of Saint Michael". If Christians prefer not to use the term in this context, that is their business, but they cannot regulate the meaning of dictionary words.  --Lambiam 22:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Christians aren't supposed to give "supreme respect and veneration" to saints or angels. Again, there are a lot of different sorts of Christians, so there might be an exception somewhere, but in any of the major branches, "supreme" veneration is due to God alone.

It's a classic Protestant criticism of Catholicism that Catholics worship saints and Mary, but Catholics say they do not, distinguishing among dulia (veneration) given to saints, hyperdulia for Mary, and latria (worship), due only to God.

Again, in any of the major branches, if a Christian's veneration of saints "equals their veneration of God", this is considered a very serious error. --Trovatore (talk) 23:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, tell it to them, not to me.  --Lambiam 19:43, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

You were the one who claimed that angels are worshipped in Abrahamic religions. While that might be something that some individual believer does, it's not approved by any mainstream branch I know of of any Abrahamic religion. --Trovatore (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Among the people belonging to an Abrahamic religion, there are or have been some who show or showed a form of reverence towards one or more angels that may be considered worshipping. I merely noted this as a fact and did not claim or even suggest this met at all times with the universal approval of the head honchos of their cult. But Paul's exhortation in Col. 2:18, "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels",^[1] makes clear that this was practiced. The fact that the Council of Laodicea, three centuries later, deemed it necessary to proclaim, in its Canon 35, that "Christians shall not forsake the Church of God and turn to the worship of angels"^[2] shows that such worship was a continuing issue. Note that the cited source, on the same page, states, "It hardly needs to be observed that this canon does not exclude a regulated worship of angels, such as is usual in the Church" [my emphasis by underlining].  --Lambiam 09:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Paul's rather tortured syntax, as rendered in the KJV, was of course criticizing the worship of angels. I expect you know that, but it might not be clear to everyone (wasn't clear to me, till I looked into it a little).

As for Hefele, he wrote in German, so we may have an issue of translation here.

That said — there is in fact an archaic use of "worship" that could apply here. It survives, for example, in the Anglican wedding vow "with my body I thee worship". If you're using words in that sort of way, some sort of acknowledgment of that might be appropriate. --Trovatore (talk) 21:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

You are right that it is (partially) a mistranslation. German Verehrung can mean "worship" or "veneration". (The term Anbetung is unambiguously reserved for the worship of a deity; it is inappropriately connected to the English article Adoration.) For Hefele's first use of Engelverehrung, in the interdiction by the Synod, worship is appropriate, but just as German Heiligenverehrung corresponds to our "veneration of Saints", I think Hefele's second use of Engelverehrung^[3] should have been translated as veneration of angels. Perhaps it played a role that the translator was raised an Anglican, even being ordained before converting.  --Lambiam 08:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I mean are there Hindu monotheists in the "abstract" sense, as in Judaism and Isalm? It wasn't clear to me from the article God in Hinduism, besides maybe about Madhvacharya. 2A10:8012:F:F548:608D:36E6:4430:60A4 (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean by "'abstract' sense"? According to God in Hinduism there are Hindus who believe in one creator god, e.g. Krishnaism. And of course there are the henotheistic practices that either worship only one god while not denying the existence of others (also called Monolatry) or believe that there are many gods that are all different manifestations of a single entity. (Btw, there are currents of Christianity that are viewed by outsiders as henotheistic and not monotheistic. And Judaism has its roots in henotheism, too (see Yahwism).) -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

By "abstract" I mean something like "a metaphysical spirit without any structure or body which cannot be directly represented by sorting material in a meaningful way (sand/mud/clay/concrete/metal/ink) or by engraving/sculpting/consolidating/painting etc", as in mainstream Judaism and mainstream Islam. 2A10:8012:F:F548:B1F8:B34F:41AF:8476 (talk) 08:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes. See the Advaita Vedanta tradition. It is more accurately characterized as monism rather than monotheism, but the description (or more accurately the experience) of realizing Brahman is identical to monotheistic descriptions, particularly when it comes to more mystical sects of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In fact, the descriptions of such realizations are almost identical. There's even groups of Jews, Christians, and Muslims who will agree with Hindus and Buddhists on this point, but they generally subscribe to things like Kabbalah, Hasidism, Cataphatic theology or Apophatic theology, and Sufism. There is a fundamental universalism at the root of these approaches, to the point where all traditional interpretations of institutional religions disappear and are replaced with the semblance of a unitary experience that goes beyond knowledge, tradition, and discourse. Allan Watts is one of the more popular, and yet still contemporary purveyors of this idea, as much as academic literature tries to ignore him. The larger idea at work is known as the perennial philosophy, which argues that there is a single, metaphysical truth from which all religions derive. Viriditas (talk) 11:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I went to Google, which told me:

Marian devotions are external pious practices directed to the person of Mary, mother of God, by members of certain Christian traditions. They are performed in Catholicism, High Church Lutheranism, Anglo-Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, but generally rejected in other Christian denominations.

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The word "worship" does not appear in the definition. That said, I learned yesterday that in the Roman Catholic church 2 July (which I just this second noticed is today) is the feast day of the "Visitation of the Blessed Virgin." What's the backstory there? 2A00:23A8:0:3D01:B146:4391:37DC:D954 (talk) 11:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC) That should be Visitation (Christianity). --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:58, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, another unpopular opinion, but my understanding of monotheism is that it originally came from Hinduism, not from Abrahamic religions as we are commonly taught. The mental gymnastics required to deny this in articles like God in Hinduism push this POV. Viriditas (talk) 23:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Abraham made many trips to India. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Do you merely mean that monotheism existed in Hinduism first or that Hinduism influenced Judaism? -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 00:16, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Here you go. Viriditas (talk) 00:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That article only treats contact between ancient India and Mesopotamia and doesn't mention religion. As far as I know the oldest known monotheistic religion was that of Akhenaten (although it is not clear that it was really monotheistic). Another candidate is Zoroastrianism which most likely influenced Judaism. Apparently there was contact between ancient India and the Levant. And the article on Hinduism and Judaism lists similarities between the two, but doesn't go so far as giving any evidence of actual influence. A quick internet search didn't bring anything up either. Based on the History of Hinduism and History of Judaism it seems that Judaism developed monotheism first. But both seem to be significantly later than Zoroastrianism. Apparently the cult of Marduk in Babylonia may also have been an early form of monotheism. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 06:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The way that I understand it, the religion of the Indus Valley Civilisation, Egypt, and Mesopotamia shared ideas back and forth. It was the later Iron Age that produced the Biblical stories, likely composed from older, previous stories found in all three civilizations before the emergence of Judaism. This has been proven, for example, with the flood stories (of course, someone will come here to dispute it), so it has to be assumed that Hindu religious ideas preceded it. The idea of Brahman contains the roots of monotheistic concepts, IMO. From that and other related articles: "The theistic sub-school such as Dvaita Vedanta of Hinduism... adds the premise that individual Self and Brahman are distinct, and thereby reaches entirely different conclusions where Brahman is conceptualized in a manner similar to God in other major world religions....Brahman as the supreme reality while also acknowledging its multiplicity. This philosophy can be characterized as a form of qualified monism, attributive monism, or qualified non-dualism. It upholds the belief that all diversity ultimately stems from a fundamental underlying unity....Monotheism characterizes the traditions of...some sects of Hinduism." The story of Abraham of Ur of the Chaldees is difficult to date outside of a religious context (for various reasons), but if one uses the religious dating system, it must have come after Hinduism, not before. Viriditas (talk) 09:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

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Lambiam, you have to distinguish the actual words of the canon from commentary on it. The reference cites Augustine, contra Faustum, lib. xx, c.21. Unfortunately the Google preview only goes to Book 12, but there's a fairly comprehensive rejection of Manichaeanism here [4], and if Augustine had thought it OK to worship angels you would have thought he would have mentioned it. 2A02:C7B:208:F300:29DA:3E43:4852:DE0E (talk) 11:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC) Clearly, the words in the cited source "on the same page" are the commentator's, otherwise I would have written "the Canon ... states ...", not just "the cited source ... states ...". I included this because it supports my earlier claim that outsiders in fact regularly call such veneration "worship".  --Lambiam 14:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The article on History of Hinduism dates the development of monotheism to the Golden Age" of Hinduism (c. 320-650 CE). Meanwhile Yahwism dates monotheism in Judaism to the 6th century BCE. I guess the Brahman can serve as a basis for monotheism and eventually did, but that seems to be a later development. I think one of the reasons may be that it is not immediately obvious that it is a theistic concept at all. Judaism's monotheistic roots also go deeper, e.g. the beginning of Genesis, yet it took centuries for Judaism to move from henotheism/monolatry to monotheism. And even in early Christianity there are still remnants of henotheism/monolatry (in Gnosticism these are clear, but they exist even in Paul's writings). But whatever the timeline is it doesn't prove that one monotheism influenced the other. As far as I know theories about mutual influence are based on comparison, not on concrete evidence of transmission which basically precludes identifying the direction of influence. My takeaway from all this is that we may never really know whether monotheism was developed independently in India and the Levant or if they influenced each other. And of course this is further complicated by the existence of Zoroastrianism in Mesopotamia that may have influenced both. Here is an interesting article that basically argues that ascribing monotheism to ancient religions is anachronistic (although it does not mention Hinduism). -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Meanwhile Yahwism dates monotheism in Judaism to the 6th century BCE. Our article on the timeline of Jewish history starts in 1312 BCE while the article on Jewish History goes back to 1500 BCE, with other literature point to the time of Abraham at 1880 BCE. Viriditas (talk) 08:40, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. And then there is also Origins of Judaism. It seems that the articles have slightly different interpretations of what counts as Jewish. E.g. the Yahwism article treats Yahwism as a precursor distinct from Judaism (at least for the most part), but it could probably just as well (or even more accurately?) be described as an earlier form of Judaism. Depending on which interpretation you chose in the 6th century BCE either monotheistic Judaism replaced henotheistic/monolatric Yahwism or developed from henotheism/monolatrism to monotheism. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 09:16, 7 July 2023 (UTC)