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Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 August 23

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August 23

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Template:1874 Canadian federal election/Pictou

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was keep. Izno (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't verify the information here. Boleyn (talk) 20:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Hurricane Isaac (2012) series

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was relisted on 2024 August 31. Izno (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Newyorkerize

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was no consensus. There is a fairly clear consensus that this template should not be used in the article space, but as far as keeping, deleting, or "userfying for personal use" goes there does not seem to be any one side that has a majority. There is a consensus that the name is a bit of a problem, but that can be hashed out on the talk page (i.e. no consensus here for what to rename it). Primefac (talk) 14:27, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This template violates accessibility guidelines, specifically Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Text, as screen readers will vocalize the diaereses, rendering the words unintelligible. I can confirm this is the case, as I tested the template by installing a text-to-speech web browser extension. Amendment: I may have incorrectly filed this, as my nomination was not for deletion but for discussion, as this is a templates for discussion. The issue isn't the mere use of the diaereses but its non-standard application of them, which would be vocalized by text readers. Svampesky (talk) 03:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did not invent the diæresis. It's been part of the English language for at least a century; if there is an accessibility issue with people using uncommon orthography, this is something which needs to be resolved either by the embedding of metadata (e.g. setting a non-printing tag with correct pronunciation) or the improvement of screen-reading software. In either case, I posit it would be better to better handle this case through a coöperative endeavour, rather than immediate deletion of any template which (within five hours of its creation) does not emit perfectly compliant accessibility-supporting output to all software ever written. jp×g🗯️ 04:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not commenting on the issue, just this text: or the improvement of screen-reading software. That isn't something that can happen in a Wiki discussion. If there is an issue with screen readers and something we do (even if it is correct), we should stop doing it until the issue on their end is resolved. Gonnym (talk) 07:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Off the top of my head -- we once had a user named ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ; we currently have a user named ජපස (his name is not even written like that irl, he just uses the letters). We have user signatures featuring stuff like "×", "🗯️", "☏", "¢", "😼", and the utterly cursed "𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇" -- we have people who use diacritics and diæresis on Latin characters in articles, talk page discussions and their own names. If it is in any way incumbent on us to avoid ever using characters outside of the standard ASCII set, this comes as extremely significant news to me. jp×g🗯️ 08:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is backwards. The burden is on screen-reading software to parse text as it exists correctly out in the world, not on us to change otherwise correct content to make it screen reader compatible. Sdkb talk 15:28, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There's almost certainly better ways to go about this than immediately flagging something for deletion without so much as trying to consult the person that made the template first or even just creating a discussion about it on the talk page. Neo Purgatorio (talk) 05:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep on principle. Nominating a potentially useful, and decently documented, template seven hours after its creation is too bitey (link for explanation of WP jargon; I know that JPxG is not a newcomer). – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do not find the accessibility argument the nominator made persuasive. However, I'm struggling a bit to see the utility of this template, as we don't really use the New Yorker style. Why did you create it, JPxG? I'm inclined to keep it if there's any valid reason, even if just for humor (templates are fairly cheap), although I'd consider adding {{subst only}} to the doc. Sdkb talk 15:31, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I honestly can't see a realistic purpose for this template. It's not going to be used in mainspace (points in the general direction of WP:MOS), and anyone who wants to go the length of doing something like this elsewhere will know what to do anyway. Izno (talk) 19:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 14:55, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Move to a title that makes sense. I could see someone wanting to add diaeresis to their prose and lacking the appropriate keyboard shortcuts / editing interface copypasta, but how on earth would anyone know to look for this template to accomplish that task? I take it from context that the New Yorker includes this in their house style, but I personally associate it with Tolkien, and to a lesser extent with Tamzin. When I saw the template title I thought it had to do with wrapping an IPA pronunciation to add a New York accent to it. Clearly doesn't violate accessibility guidelines. Folly Mox (talk) 15:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I could see someone wanting to add diaeresis to their prose would fail to uphold the expectations in MOS:COMMONALITY. Diareses have gone the way of the dodo in English (specifically ignoring the New Yorker, hence the name). This is not a template that should be used in main space. Izno (talk) 16:09, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Userfy Unused.
    However, the other deletion arguments are weak. Which text-to-speech web browser extension? Google TalkBack pronounces "coöperatively" fine. iOS/Windows probably do too. We can't let just anyone write their badly-coded ersatz screen reader and demand Wikipedia accommodate them.
    Diacritics don't impair understanding so they aren't the main target of MOS:COMMONALITY. Wikipedia should coöperate and not stylistically impose a diaresis-lacking WP:ENGVAR. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There are more suggestions above. Any ideas?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ToadetteEdit (talk) 18:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Move via renaming to something like "add diaeresis". The code running it is a simple substitution, if it's breaking on a screen reader it's likely the reader, not the code. I'll take a closer look at it if your reader can't handle encyclopædia, but I'm fairly sure the issue is with the screen reader. ~ Argenti Aertheri(Chat?) 22:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Hamas history

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was no consensus. Minimal participation (one keep one delete) with the general opinion (ignoring the sock) that at the very least the content should be cleaned up a bit, possibly with a rename to reduce the EGG factor. NPASR if a satisfactory result is not achieved following these changes. Primefac (talk) 14:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This template also has a poorly defined function per WP:TG. Contrary to its name of "Hamas history," it seems to be an indiscriminate collection of information about "Hamas members," including their positions and years and places of birth and death. For some reason there is also an assassination-like map attached to the template. It is also unsourced and fails four of the WP:NAVBOX guidelines. It should be deleted. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep FourPi (talk) 04:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was intending to change the template page name to "Hamas members", I had already changed the displayed title, but I assume moving it during the deletion discussion would cause trouble?
Which four WP:NAVBOX guidelines does it fail and how? the only one I can see a major problem with is "There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template" but that could be solved fairly easily by either renaming it {{Hamas sidebar}} or creating List of Hamas members a new page.
The sources are all in the linked pages. I have only once seen a source in a navbox, so I presumed they were against the style guide? but I can add them if they are allowed?
It doesn't show assassinations, the map shows birthplaces and family origins (most of them died in Gaza, or outside the range of the map, a map wouldn't show much).
FourPi (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On second thoughts a list seems inappropriate, it at least needs another name? "List of members" has the "assassination map" feel to it? And I think the template already matches well enough other pages like List of Hamas leaders or Hamas history? We already have a lot of pages about Hamas, we need to sort and link what we have already. Currently {{Hamas sidebar}} seems most fitting, a lot of topics have a comprehensive footer and a summary sidebar? FourPi (talk) 04:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – I think there's no more issue regarding this sidebar. For the sidebar, no need to put the references as per WP:NAVBOX. However, we have to create new page based on this. I totally agree that we maybe can create the List of Hamas members page to fulfilled the guidelines.
– Thegreatrebellion (talk) 03:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thegreatrebellion: Would you support changing it into a horizontal template? Makeandtoss (talk) 18:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why would horizontal be better? FourPi (talk) 13:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we already have that, Template:Hamas. I think we better just don't change it to the horizontal one and change the content of it.
– Thegreatrebellion (talk) 01:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thegreatrebellion: Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean, can you rephrase it? FourPi (talk) 03:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thegreatrebellion: is arguing for the merge of the two into the horizontal template, which I would definitely support. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are suggesting we improve it and keep it separate? FourPi (talk) 04:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Mostly because based on how its used in the Mohammed Deif it serves no real purpose. It would only be marginally helpful to someone who's trying to learn about Hamas's history through its members, and it slightly assists in navigation for that one purpose. It would be more elegant to have a list of important Hamas members linked in the Hamas template. TimeEngineer (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TimeEngineer Can you explain what you mean by "how its used in the Mohammed Deif" page? if there are still two very similar sidebars there, then I agree we don't need both, but the lack of other images etc. meant it didn't seem urgent to decide which. FourPi (talk) 12:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 14:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Keep or delete?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ToadetteEdit (talk) 18:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep 123.176.3.197 (talk) 13:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Cc-by

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 14:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Same rationale as Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 August 16#Template:Cc-by-sa – transclusionless template which causes an error only fixable by the person who placed the template (because other editors cannot divine what license the uploaded meant to use). Therefore, a dab is worse than useless. HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 14:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Would a Wikipedia:Edit_filter/Requested solution prevent the error only fixable by the person who placed the template? 142.113.140.146 (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would loathe to set up an edit filter – which runs on every single edit – to stop the use of one template. Much easier to delete it. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 19:18, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, Delete per nom and the other TfD. I'm worried newbies may now randomly pick a specific CC license, but let's just see what happens. 142.113.140.146 (talk) 19:29, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Sticky

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. ✗plicit 14:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draft or beta state according to doc. Last modified in May 2014, so possibly abandoned. Used on one user and sandbox page, and seems unlikely to be completed or used by others. "See also" section lists more complete and used alternatives. Jroberson108 (talk) 06:07, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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