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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Douglas Albert Munro

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Peacemaker67 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 01:20, 13 July 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Douglas Albert Munro

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Chetsford (talk)

Douglas Albert Munro (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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SM1 Munro is the most celebrated member of the U.S. Coast Guard. He was KIA leading a Coast Guard small boat flotilla against Japanese forces to cover the retreat of the 7th Marines at the Second Battle of the Matanikau and is the Coast Guard's only Medal of Honor recipient and the only non-Marine listed on the Wall of Heroes of the U.S. Marine Corps. After his death, his 48 year-old mother volunteered for military service and was commissioned a Lt JG in the U.S. Coast Guard. His uncle, Francis Fairey, was the one-time commanding officer of the Irish Fusiliers of Canada and a MP for Victoria, B.C. Munro is also the namesake of a very snappy quick march composed by Lewis Buckley. This was recently a Start-class article but has just now passed to GA status. Chetsford (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Munro.jpg: source link is dead. Same with File:USCGC_Spencer_WPG-36.jpg, File:USS_Hunter_Liggett_(APA-14)_c1944.jpg
  • File:Douglas_Munro_signature.png: don't think the USGov tag would apply here, as it wasn't made "as part of that person's official duties"
  • Douglas_Munro_March.ogg: what is the copyright status of the composition? Authorship details for it should also be included in the description. Similarly File:Munro_Bust_at_Coast_Guard_HQ.jpg and the bust, File:Douglas_Munro_statue_in_2018.jpg and the statue, File:Bust_of_Douglas_Munro.jpg
Many thanks, Nikkimaria - these are now all updated (or removed, where applicable). Chetsford (talk) 22:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is progressing well. G'day Nikkimaria are you happy with the image licensing now? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:44, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, looks fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (addressed) from Indy beetle

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My initial comments:

  • There's a lot of photos in this article. I see that one gallery exists on this page; it might be helpful to move some of the others to a gallery so as to not clutter the article so much.
  • General practice for citing long works like journal articles is to use a shortened footnote style or something similar to call the specific pages germane to each claim. This helps with WP:Verify.

-Indy beetle (talk) 03:07, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Indy beetle - I've removed half of the images per your suggestion. "General practice for citing long works like journal articles is to use a shortened footnote style or something similar to call the specific pages germane to each claim. This helps with WP:Verify." I believe everything exceeding two pages in length currently uses Template:Rp to cite specific pages. Per WP:CITEVAR, I exclusively use <ref> tags versus paranthetical citations as <ref> tags are a superior form of citation, requiring the reader only undertake one mouse action (a click) to discover full source details instead of two mouse actions (a click to discover the source name and then a bottom page scroll to compare the source name against the full record). Chetsford (talk) 22:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, but in that case including the list of all the page numbers referred to in regular <ref> citation for Guardian of Guadalcanal or any other work is unnecessary, if they are covered by the Rp supplements. -Indy beetle (talk) 18:02, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, these have now been removed. Chetsford (talk) 18:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Indy beetle - I wanted to check to see if you had any further corrections you suggest? Thanks! Chetsford (talk) 02:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My comments are addressed. I haven't given enough time to this to be qualified to offer my support, so I'll leave it at that. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments & support by Pendright

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Lead:

  • ... was an American Coast Guardsman who was ...
Munro is introduced to readers as a Coast Guardsman before knowing he is actually in the United States Coast Guard.
  • As of 2019, he is the ...
Consider: As of March, April, or spring 2019, since the year is not yet over - even tho it is unlkly to change. The year 2018 is also an option.
  • ... South Cle Elum, Washington ...
Consider a comma after Washington state.
  • ... shortly before U.S. entrance into World War II.
  • Consider adding the definite article the before U.S.
Not addressed! Pendright (talk) 20:23, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Chetsford: still to be addressed! Pendright (talk) 05:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS: When an abbreviation is used, first introduce it using the full expression - United Sates along with the abbreviatin (U.S.).
  • Along with his shipmate Raymond Evans he was known as ...
Consider: Along with his shipmate, Raymond Evans, he was known as... or, Along with Raymond Evans, his shipmate, he was known as ...
  • During the Second Battle of the Matanikau in September 1942, Munro was tasked with leading the extrication of a force of United States Marines that had been overrun.
Overrun by whom?
  • He died of a gunshot wound in 1942 at the age of 22 while using the boat he was piloting to shield a landing craft filled with Marines from Japanese fire.
Is it necessary to repeat "in 1942", since it is stated in the above sentence?
  • The anniversary of his death is annually observed in Cle Elum, Washington and at the ...
Consider a comma after Washington state.

Early life and education:

  • Douglas Munro was born in 1919 in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada to ...
Consider adding the date and month to 1919 and a comma after Canada.
A comma is now needed after 1919. Pendright (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... settling in South Cle Elum, Washington where ...
Consider a comma after Washington state.
  • During World War II he served as a captain in the Washington State Guard, a home guard raised by Washington due to its "insecurities over its exposed location" and a concern by Governor of Washington Clarence D. Martin that the state would be unable to defend itself from invasion while the Washington National Guard was mustered into federal service.
This long sentence contains references to the Washington State Guard, a home guard and the Washington National Guard, surely to leave readers confused; overall it needs some rewriting for clarity. A footnote might be in order too.
  • ... representing Victoria, British Columbia as a member of ...
Consider a comma after Britsh Columbia.
  • Following the death of her son, then 48 year-old Edith Munro joined the Coast Guard Women's Reserve.
The USCG Womens Reserve was beter known as the SPARS
  • In 1939, with the threat of war growing, Munro decided to withdraw from university ...
Consider a commas before university.
My error, sorry! Instead, consider a the before university. Pendright (talk) 20:54, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... eating large amounts of food in order meet the Coast Guard's minimum weight standard.
Add the missing word "to" between order and meet.
  • General commsnts: to this point, quotation marks have been used several times, but without attribution. Italics are required for emphasis.

Pause here - Pendright (talk) 01:23, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pendright - thank you very much for this review. All of the above should now be rectified, but please let me know if I missed anything. Chetsford (talk) 06:15, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Chetsford: There are three minor items (above) that need your attention. Pendright (talk) 20:54, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Career:

  • In mid-1941, prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, the government began emergency mobilization and the United States Department of the Treasury surrendered authority for the Coast Guard to the United States Navy.
United States Department of the Navy was established by an Act of Congress on April 30, 1798 ... to provide a government organizational structure to the United States Navy, the United States Marine Corps (from 1834 onward) and, when directed by the President (or Congress during time of war), the United States Coast Guard, as a service within the Department of the Navy, ...
The USCG was transferred, not srrendered, to the United Stats Department of the Navy, the civilian authority over these military sevices.
The USCG was transferred to the Department of the Navy, not the Navy? Pendright (talk) 05:43, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Munro and Evans were among Navy and Coast Guard personnel who staffed Naval Operating Base (NOB) Cactus at Lunga Point from which small boat operations were being staged.
What was the function of small boat operations.
  • According to U.S. Marine Master Sergeant James Hurlbut, Munro and Evans lived at the base in an approximately 80-square-foot (7.4 m2) house "they had made from packing boxes and scrap material" which he also described as "quite a swank establishment for Guadalcanal"
  • Is the hypen necessry after the number 80?
  • Is a house the best choice of words here?
  • Consider a comma after the word material.
  • Is it 80 square foot or feet?
  • On September 20, 1942 Munro volunteered to lead a small boat search and rescue mission seeking to recover the crew of a Navy airplane that had been forced down off Savo Island. During the operation, Munro's craft came under intense fire from Japanese shore positions, though he was able to maneuver the boat back to base with only minor injuries to his crew.
  • Considder a comma after the year 1942.
  • Was the mission sucessful or unsucessfu?
  • consider: back to his base or back to the base
Not addressed? Pendright (talk) 06:24, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... the destroyer USS Monssen, ...
Consider adding the ships' hull number.
  • ... after Monssen was forced to break away to defend the cargo ship USS Alhena which had come ...
consider a comma before which.
  • Munro was placed in charge of two landing craft tanks (LCT) and eight Higgins boats
Link Higgins boats
  • ... Monssen was forced to break away to defend the cargo ship USS Alhena which had come under threat from a Japanese air squadron.
Consider a comma after Alhena.
  • ... Dexter reportedly asked Munro and Evans if they would take charge of the mission, to which Munro answered "hell yes!"
Consider a commas after answered.
  • ... one of the LCTs soon became grounded on a sandbar. Munro directed the other LCT to help extricate the grounded vessel as he, once again, maneuvered his own boat to ...
  • Is the word soon essential?
  • The term once again seems redundant?

Burial and decoration:

  • Munro's remains were recovered from Guadalcanal in 1947 and he was reinterred at Laurel Hill Memorial Park in Cle Elum ...
Consider: Munro's remains were recovered from Guadalcanal in 1947 and they were reinterred at Laurel Hill Memorial Park in Cle Elum ...

Dates of rank:

  • The Dictionary of Naval Terms, published by Naval Institute Press (2005) describes officers as holding a rank and that a rate or rating is more often used for enlisted personnel.
  • Decorations:

In addition to the Medal of Honor, Munro was recipient of the Purple Heart, the Coast Guard Good Conduct Medal, the American Defense Service Medal, the American Campaign Medal, the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal (with one battle star), and the World War II Victory Medal, most of which were awarded posthumously.

Monro was awarded the Medal of Honor and the Purple Heart, but he earned the remainder.
  • Headins:
Consider consolodating some of the many headings.
  • Alternative text:
Consider using it to help the vision impared.
  • General commsnts: quotation marks continue to be used, but generally without attribution. Italics are required for emphasis.

D0ne - Pendright (talk) 01:17, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, Pendright. I've made all these updates (let me know if I missed something) with two exceptions. The hyphen in 80 feet is automatically created by Wikipedia when using the length conversion tool so I can't change it. Also, I can't find any instances of the use of unattributed quotation marks in the article? Chetsford (talk) 23:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Chetsford: – thank you for your responses – I’ve noted (above) the few you overlooked. Outside of this, we're good here. Pendright (talk) 08:03, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Pendright - sorry for my delayed reply. I think I got all three of the remaining ones (actually two, but someone else had got the third). Please let me know if you still see anything, though. Thanks againT Chetsford (talk) 02:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, supporting - Pendright (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

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  • Born in Canada to an expatriate American Unlink Canada.
  • shortly before United States entrance into World War II Unlink US.
  • on October 11, 1919, in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Again unlink Canada.
  • family from Canada to the United States in 1922 Again unlink US.
  • British Columbia provincial government.[4]:122[7][5] Suggest ordering the refs numerically here.
  • Sons of the American Legion.[3]:2:2 Wait double 2?
  • "the Gold Dust Twins".[d][13] Suggest ordering the letter note here.
  • expressed a desire to become a career coast guardsman.[8][4]:30 Suggest ordering the refs numerically here.
  • Coast Guard as part of preparations for War Plan Orange.[11][15][14] Same as above.
  • between land forces and offshore vessels.[18][17] Same as above.
  • Established on August 9 by Coast Guard --> "Established on August 9, by Coast Guard".
  • Japanese positions with her 5-inch guns, managing No metric units?
  • which Munro answered, "hell yes!"[21][3]:4 Same as above suggest ordering the refs numerically here.
  • memorial service was held on November 1 --> "memorial service was held on November 1,".
  • she was underweight.[26][9] Same as above suggest ordering the refs numerically here.
  • extent of their rank and rate".[30][46][30][46] Two 46s?

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:27, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Chetsford:--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay, Sturmvogel 66 - this is updated now, please let me know if I missed anything! Chetsford (talk) 02:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's for @CPA-5: to say, not me. I was just facilitating this review.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 10:13, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I copy/pasted the wrong name! Chetsford (talk) 17:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
G'day CPA-5 can you check to see if you are happy with the changes made? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert

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Support G'day, Chetsford, nice work. I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 12:53, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Munro's family repatriated to the United States: --> "Munro's family moved to the United States"?
  • before leaving to volunteer for military service: --> "before volunteering for military service"?
  • evaluations and – according to Evans – expressed: --> probably best to use unspaced emdashes here given that that is the style used ealier in the article ("and—in childhood—relocated")
  • with Julie Sheehan – Munro's great-niece – serving: same as above here
  • I found the early life section a bit awkward because we jump in chronology a bit here, I'd suggest that potentially these could be worked into a chronological order which might make the narrative flow a little better
  • By mid 1942: --> "By mid-1942"
  • to the staff of Rear Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner: --> "to Rear Admiral Richmond Turner's staff..."
  • to the staff of Rear Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner: what was his role on Turner's staff?
  • the lead mentions he was a signalman, but the body of the article doesn't seem to mention this (except in the ratings gallery) -- perhaps mention a change in role in September 1940, if that is the case, or specialist training in signals around this time?
  • slightly inconsistent: "Coast Guard Training Center Cape May" v. "Coast Guard Training Center, Cape May"
  • On September 27, United States Marine Corps: move the link for the Marine Corps here to the first mention earlier in the text
  • the capitalisation of "Marines" is inconsistent. For instance, compare "companies of Marines" v "fire from the marines"
  • career coast guardsman.[8][4]: suggest ordering the citations here into numerical order
  • and then he was gone.” --> add a straight quotation mark
  • the painting “Douglas --> same as the above
  • in the References, "James, Hurlbut" --> "Hurlbut, James"
  • in the References, "Matthew M. Burke" --> "Burke, Matthew M." (for consistency of style)
  • in the References, "Mike, Michael" --> "Mink, Michael"
  • the Notes section would probably make more sense above the references (given that it also has citations)
  • the entry in the Further reading section would probably be better presented in the External links section
  • the Medal of Honor citation is referenced to Basic Training for Dummies, is there perhaps a more official source that could be cited?
AustralianRupert - thanks very much for this review. I've made all these updates with the exception of explaining his specific duties on Admiral Turner's staff as I was unable to find any sources that go into this level of specifics, unfortunately. Please let me know if I missed anything or if you have further comments! Chetsford (talk) 06:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I made a couple of minor tweaks to follow up and have added my support now. Nice work. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:37, 29 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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  • Be sure that all of the titles in your refs are in title case. Many of your newspaper article titles aren't.
  • Some of your refs still have page numbers. Shouldn't all of these be in the rp format in the article?
  • All books should have ISBNs and all journals should have ISSNs
  • I don't much use newspapers as sources in my stuff, but I believe that they should use page numbers just like anything else.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:42, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sturmvogel 66 thanks for checking this. I've added newspaper page numbers (for those that have them, some are online and unnumbered), added ISSNs where missing, and converted everything to title case. Some of your refs still have page numbers. Shouldn't all of these be in the rp format in the article? My impression was the references display the range of pages used throughout while the RP template connects specific pages to specific passages? Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, though, and I'll fix it. Thanks again - Chetsford (talk) 23:02, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, that makes sense! Sorry, I misread your comment originally. I've updated citations lacking page numbers in the references list, which appeared to be #3 and #4. Please let me know if I missed anything. Chetsford (talk) 18:07, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not entirely. I'm happy to see that page numbers have been added to more cites in the main body, but my point was that they're not also needed in the refs as well. So you can eliminate all those added to #3, forex, because they're redundant to those in the main body. To be consistent all of your book sources should have their page numbers in the main body, not in the refs section. Articles should have the page range of the whole article, if available, and the citation referring to that book in the main body should have the page number(s) of the fact(s) referred to. #4 is a perfect example of this. Forex, #9 and 34 shows page number in the refs, but those need to be moved to wherever they're used in the text of the article. I hope that I've explained what I'm trying to say adequately.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:45, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry I don't understand. So you can eliminate all those added to #3, forex, because they're redundant to those in the main body." The previous version of this article you reviewed already didn't display any pages numbers in #3 and did display all page numbers in the body (see: [1]). Should I restore that version? Chetsford (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wasn't complaining about #3 specifically before, but more the other ones that didn't match its format like 9 and 34 and possibly a few others, mainly books that you referenced.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I removed page numbers from all the books in the references list. I haven't removed the page numbers from the newspapers yet as you previously had me add them all in, so I wanted to verify you indeed wanted me to take them back out. Chetsford (talk) 20:43, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sturm are you happy with the responses here? If so, I reckon we can just about wrap this one up. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:54, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Almost. Cite 3 in the Observances sections need a page number. As do the repeated mentions of Cite 4 in the first paragraph of News of death and Medal of Honor. The cites should be consolidated; each sentence doesn't need its own cite unless it's referencing a different source.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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