Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Ivo Herenčić

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No consensus to promote at this time - Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Ivo Herenčić

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): OakMapping (talk)

Ivo Herenčić was an Ustaša who orchestrated an unsuccessful assassination attempt on Alexander I of Yugoslavia in the interwar period. He committed various war crimes and worked in several surveillance departments of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) during World War II. One of the leaders of the withdrawal of the armed forces of the NDH, he was not able to negotiate passage into Austria but he himself escaped and was never apprehended.

This is my first ACR nom, so I might be overambitious but I believe the article meets A-class criteria. This article is certainly my best work so far and I would love to see it go through rigorous reviews. OakMapping (talk) 14:45, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

"was a general in the armed forces of the Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH), a fascist puppet state, where he commanded a battalion of Ustaše Militia that committed many war crimes and atrocities on civilians in the NDH." 1. Could we have dates for this? 2. Optional: consider breaking this long sentence.
- I changed it to "was a general in the armed forces of the Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH), a fascist puppet state. Where, in 1941, he commanded a battalion of Ustaše Militia that committed many war crimes and atrocities on civilians in the NDH." Is it better?

You don't need to say both "Where" and "in the NDH." Suggest deleting the former.

Done

" He was sent to the Herzegovina region". By whom?
- It says that Pavelić sent him in the body of the article, I don't think that detail is important enough to be included in the lead
"feared by the people". Could you be a little more specific as to who "the people" were?
- Unfortunately I no longer have access to the source I used for that but IIRC it wasn't more specific.

I don't think that it works to just say "the people". I don't see that it conveys any information if we don't actually know who is being referred to.

Changed it to you what you suggest later in the review.

"Economic-Business Higher School". 1. What does this mean? 2. Why the upper case initial letters?
- It's my attempt at translating Ekonomsko-komercijalna visoka škola, I am not sure if visoka škola could be translated as college, I would like to hear another opinion on this. I removed upper case initial letters, added Croatian name, and replaced business with commerce because it's probably a better translation.

Maybe "after which he attended a business college". That works in UK English, I'm not so sure about US English.

Changed it to that.

"he entered a camp for members of the ultra-nationalist and fascist Ustaše organisation". What does this mean? He was interned? "camp" has a variety of meanings.
- He wasn't interned, replaced entered with joined. Hopefully now it's more clear.
"Hetman". Perhaps an indication of its connotations?
- Added a sentence explaining what hetman is, but he adopted it as a pseudonym
"he had been trained to throw in a training camp". Optional: avoid "trained ... training".
- replaced "trained" with "taught how"
Per the second bullet of MOS:JOBTITLES most mentions of "king" should be 'King'.
- done
"Bosnia and Herzegovina are dup linked. Check for other cases.
- I don't think it is, it's linked in the lead and in the first instance in the body
"while participating in fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina." Against whom?
- the source doesn't say
"Herenčić was one of the UNS and RAVSIGUR officers whose atrocities made them very feared by the people." 1. Which people? 2. This seems to be in the wrong place, there has been no mention of Herenčić's involvement in any atrocities since he joined RAVSIGUR. If people were especially afraid of him, then ideally the reasons should be detailed; if they can't be, this still IMO needs rephrasing.
- As I said above I no longer have access to the source I used for that. I found no examples of his involvement in atrocities since he joined RAVSIGUR. I see why it needs rephrasing but I don't know how to rephrase it, if you or anyone else has any suggestions for that I would be happy to hear them.

Mmm. How about 'Herenčić was one of the most feared UNS and RAVSIGUR officers because of the atrocities previously committed by units under his command'?

Sounds alright, changed it to that.

"HOS" is mentioned in the lead, but not the body.
- It's mentioned as "Croatian Armed Forces", it's only mentioned once in the body so there's no need to use an abbreviation.
"should not advance any further". "advance" seems an inappropriate word.
- I can't think of a better word, any suggestions?

'withdraw'?

changed to that, thanks for the suggestion

"Herenčić, together with Metikoš, Servatzy and Danijel Crljen met with Scott ... Herenčić, Metikoš, Servatzy and Crljen, representing the retreating NDH forces, met with Scott". Is this a duplication?
- No, there were two meetings, I tried making it more clear.
Is there no more detail on his post-war life? Eg, is it known if he had children, or when his wife died, or what he did for a living?
- Only when his wife died, I added that

A really nice article. I have seen worse nominated for FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you a lot for the review, I addressed all your comments. @Gog the Mild:

Placeholder for PM

Definitely my area, OakMapping. Will take a look once you've addressed Gog's comments. Ping me at that point. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed all Gog's comments @Peacemaker67:

Will look at this over the coming weekend. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, have been a bit busy IRL, will look at this shortly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll jump in after you've dealt with Zawed's comments. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:40, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Zawed

Lead

he completed secondary...: suggest: "he completed his secondary..."
- Done

Education and early Ustaše activity

Structure-wise, I think this section could be broken into a short "Early life" section and a "Ustaše activity" section (beginning with the "In 1933..." sentence).
- Done
During 1930 and 1931, he...: suggest "From 1930 to 1931, he..."
- Done
While in Italy, he adopted pseudonym Hetman.[3] Hetman being a historical military title used in the Polish–Lithuanian state.[4]: suggest "hile in Italy, he adopted the pseudonym Hetman,[3] this being a historical military title used in the Polish–Lithuanian state.[4]
- Done
...using fake passports with names Emil Benedikt...: suggest "...using fake passports in the names of Emil Benedikt..."
- Done
Anything on Herenčić's specific role in the assassination attempt of the King? Seems to me that Begović and Oreb took all the risks.
- He was the leader of the plot but he didn't have any specific task in the assassination attempt.
just before the assassination attempt and just after it failed.: suggest "just before and after the assassination attempt." Seems redundant to mention that it failed, it is clear from the preceding paragraph that it did.
- Done
1st Ustaše Company; should this be listed in the infobox under commands?
- Yes, added it.

World War II

...Trieste on the same day, Ustašas traveled...: suggest "Trieste on the same day, the Ustašas traveled..."
June and early July 1941: you could drop the 1941 here as it should be clear to the reader that the events are still taking place in that year. Also, does this time period refer to the uprising itself or his involvement in it? From the following sentence, it seems he only became involved in mid-July? If that refers to something different, perhaps "Main Ustaša Headquarters then sent..." to imply that the mid-July event is separate from the uprising.
Main Ustaša Headquarters sent...: suggest "The Main Ustaša Headquarters sent..."
Ustaše Mostar Battalion; should this be listed in the infobox under commands?
participating in fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina.: who would he have been fighting against here?
In April 1941, Herenčić was appointed as a commissioner in RAVSIGUR, a supervisory department in the Ministry of Internal Affairs.: chronologically, this is a little out of place here; can it be worked into the first part of the previous paragraph? It goes towards explaining a little what he was doing between April and June 1941.
Herenčić was appointed its leader...: leader of the Chief Surveillance Department or of the UNS?
General Ivan Prpić, as he feared Prpić might reveal...: suggest "General Ivan Prpić, who he feared might reveal..."

Post-war life and death

Generally, it is not necessary to link countries (Argentina) unless it is a historical state that no longer exists.

Personal life

This is a short section. I suggest combining it with the Post-war section by mentioning that he and his wife [name/date of marriage details] went to Argentina. I also note the inconsistency in language to describe the move to Argentina - in the Post-war life section, he "traveled", i.e. no urgency/danger involved whereas in the Personal life section, this is described as "fled", i.e. some urgency/danger involved. These are inconsistent with each other.

That's it for me. For a first attempt at A-class, this is pretty good, the issues identified are mainly a few grammatical stuff that may not be immediately obvious to a person for whom English may be a second language, which I think may be the case here? (apologies if not). Zawed (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @OakMapping: just a ping to check you have seen this? Zawed (talk) 08:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have but I've been quite busy irl so I'll address your comments one day during this week when I find time. Thanks a lot for the review and also yes, English is my second language. OakMapping (talk) 09:07, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OakMapping ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:58, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Blažeković needs a page range; as does Rupić & Aljinović.
Begić needs an OCLC. (462179134)
Geiger likewise. (815108185) And several others.
Three works lack publisher locations.
"He was brought back to Zagreb by RAVSIGUR in the spring of 1944 when he was tasked with uncovering the Lorković–Vokić plot against the NDH government." is too close to the original, could you paraphrase further.

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:09, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I note that OakMapping hasn't edited since 18 February and only three times since 1 February. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:38, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say if there isn't any action by 18 March, this should be archived. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:32, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: I agree. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:49, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 21:05, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be an absence of consensus to promote after a reasonable period, and so I am archiving. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:08, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.