Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Darjeeling/archive2

Article stats

Pre-FAR version, December 16, 2021. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

FAC Nominator User:Dwaipayanc

Authorship stats

1. Fowler&fowler 68.4%
2. Dwaipayanc 12.4%
3. SandyGeorgia 4.5%

Top editor stats

By edits:

1. Fowler&fowler · 1,123 (50.5%)
2. Dwaipayanc · 467 (21%)
3. SandyGeorgia · 353 (15.9%)

By added text:

1. Fowler&fowler · 122,850 (47.7%)
2. Dwaipayanc · 79,197 (30.8%)
3. SBC-YPR · 13,012 (5.1%)

Stats excerpted as of August 7, 2022. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award nominations

Please set up separate sections for each nomination.

FASA nomination Fowler&fowler

I nominate User:Fowler&fowler for working with the original nominator, Dwaipayanc to preserve the FA status of Darjeeling. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion Fowler&fowler

1. Support. Fowler&fowler did not just restore the bronze star at Darjeeling. A masterpiece of context, history, nuance, scholarly sources and a delightful read has been created. Having now two-thirds of the article content, half of the edits, and half of the text added, F&f deserves to display the star in userspace. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:49, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
2. Support happy to see this save. Z1720 (talk) 01:53, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
3. Support - heck yes. Hog Farm _Talk 02:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
4. Support. Absolutely. --Dwaipayan (talk) 04:39, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
5. Support –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

HF

• The infobox mention of 1815 settlement doesn't seem to be directly supported in the body done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• Elevation doesn't match between the body and the infobox, I suspect the figure in the body is rounded done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• "TA conservation centre - is this the formal name for it or is TA an abbreviation for something? I think this was a typo. Changed to "A" conservation center.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:09, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
• "Darjeeling has seen a significant growth in its population, its decadal growth rate being 47% between 1991 and 2001" - I'd recommend highlighting the more recent growth done there is a graph with the latest data
• Is the 2001 census data still relevant? At a minimum, it should probably be removed once the upcoming census is completed and the new data released There was a census in 2011. 2021 was canceled because of COVID. They are planning an e-survey in 2024 (a digital census apparently) Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• A couple uncited bits in the civil utilities section rewritten and taken care of Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• "In June 2009, in order to reduce waste, the municipality proposed a ban on plastic carrier bags and sachets in the town" - did anything ever come of this proposal? Will look into this. not there any more Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• "The town often suffers from power outages and the electrical supply voltage is unstable, making voltage stabilisers popular with many households. (working on this not there any more Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:47, 27 July 2022 (UTC))
• Almost all of the primary schools are now maintained by Darjeeling Gorkha Autonomous Hill Council. (Will look into this Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:47, 27 July 2022 (UTC))
• The total length of all types of roads within the municipal area is around 134 km (83 mi)." - source is from 10 years ago so this might need updated. Also, the webpage was apparently titled "Roads", so I'm not sure that it actually covered all of that. cited to academic sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• "Darjeeling produces 7% of India's tea output, approximately 9,000,000 kilograms (20,000,000 lb) every year" - this is apparently from a 2009 source; needs updating D took care of this
• " It is reported to be the only location in eastern India that witnesses large numbers of foreign tourists" - by whom? was removed
• Any tourism figures more recent than 2015? Will look into this Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• "Bollywood movies such as Aradhana (1969), Main Hoon Na (2004), Parineeta (2005) and Barfi! (2012) were partially shot in the town" - both of the refs predate 2012 so that film obviously isn't covered by the refs. Additionally, both refs are about a railway and only support the reference to Aradhana it looks like I provided a reference to address this issue. --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:02, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
• " During 2008–2009, in the Darjeeling district, which includes Darjeeling town and surrounding villages and satellite towns, 190,744 primary school students and 72,932 post-primary school students were covered by this programme" - needs updated Will look into this Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• There's a one or two other brief uncited bits and bobs
• I'm unfamiliar with most of the web sources so I can't evaluate them for reliability well.

  Out of the ones not at WP:RSP: the Deccan Herald, The Statesman and The Telegraph are prominent Indian newspapers (although the first is centered around Karnataka, particularly Bengaluru), while Outlook India is a reputable magazine. Firstpost (part of Network18 Group) is also generally reliable in my perspective. RSP states that The Indian Express is reliable, while The Times of India (ToI; which The Economic Times is under) is less so - it can be used for non-political facts, but has a pro-government bias and is not as investigative as other publications based on the 2020 RFC, and honestly is quite clickbaity and listicley as well. Frontline, being published as a magazine supplement to The Hindu, should definitely be reliable. All of these (except maybe ToI for political topics, given it's government bias) should be fine for the ways that they are used, although I think more academic sourcing would be better for topics such as Gorkhaland separatist activism. The Darjeeling Chronicle might be fine for how it's used, but there are no mentions of editorial control (apparently it started out as a Facebook page and is volunteer run), the site is explicitly pro-Gorkhaland as a separate state, and the headlines seem to be rather sensationalist, so I have major doubts. MSG17 (talk) 00:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler were the unstruck items above all addressed (or do I need to go have a look)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:24, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look now. Thanks for pointing out Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

HF (take 2)

• "It is noted for its tea industry, scenic views of the world's third-highest mountain Kangchenjunga," - body notes that you can see Kangchenjunga from Darjeeling, but nowhere outside the lead is it claimed that Darjeeling is noted for that view addressed
• "According to the Bureau of Indian Standards, the Darjeeling town falls under seismic zone-IV, (on a scale of I to V, in order of increasing proneness to earthquakes)." - citation needed citation provided
• "Law and order in Darjeeling town comes under the jurisdiction of the district police force, which is a part of the West Bengal Police; a Deputy Superintendent of Police oversees the town's security and law affairs." - not finding this in the cited source? removed deputy super of Police info.
• "Darjeeling has seen a significant growth in its population, its decadal growth rate being 47% between 1991 and 2001." - outdated; doesn't match the table; recommend removal
• "Various efforts made to augment the water supply, including the construction of a third storage reservoir in 1984, have failed to yield desired results." - citation needed
• "The town has an underground sewage system, covering about 40% of the town area, that collects domestic waste and conveys it to septic tanks for disposal" - not verifiable, the source link is dead and the archived version is just a domain expired page Fowler has thoroughly updated these sections. --Dwaipayan (talk) 16:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
• CN tag in the economy section
• "Darjeeling produces 7% of India's tea output, approximately 9,000,000 kilograms (20,000,000 lb) every year" - source is over 10 years old, this stat needs updated if possible Updated to 2021 stats.
• "Western music is popular among the younger generation, and Darjeeling is a major centre of Nepali rock music." - citation needed
• "During 2008–2009, in the Darjeeling district, which includes Darjeeling town and surrounding villages and satellite towns, 190,744 primary school students and 72,932 post-primary school students were covered by this programme" - needs updated if at all possible. Removed these info. Was out-dated, and related to the whole district.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Hog Farm _Talk 23:21, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm, MSG17, and Dwaipayanc: The Gorkhaland movement, a movement seeking statehood or autonomy for the hill regions of West Bengal state of which Darjeeling is a part, was the only portion (one paragraph) in history that I did not write—given my general lack of familiarity with Indian late-post-colonial topics. I did not realize it had used web sources. Although I am supposed to be on Wikibreak, I'm happy to rewrite that paragraph using more updated academic (non-web) sources.

Many sentences in the Gorkhaland paragraph are cited to Dasgupta's 1999 paper. Although Dasgupta is a reputable sociologist, he is apparently also someone intimately connected with the Communist Party of India-Marxist, which was ruling the state of West Bengal during much of the time, i.e. connected both in terms of his publicly espoused views and the fact of his brother being a prominent cabinet member in the government. It is still a useful paper with many interesting (and usable) observations, but it probably should not be used for sentences which have any bearing on the Bengal government or its POV.

I'll give the other sections (Demographics, Economy, Culture, ...) another look. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:18, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! This is getting closer and closer. Hog Farm _Talk 15:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

F&f does this mean HF stopped at Demograpics, and I need to check closely from there on down? What did he not take a first pass at? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:25, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorrym, I just noticed this. But it is moot now, I'm guessing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:00, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

SG

Resolved or continued below, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:03, 31 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• According to a 2018 article, illegal parking along narrow roads has created congestion for both pedestrians and wheeled transport.[154] ... why does this need attribution, and if so, should the attribution not be more meaningful than "a 2018 article"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Removed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Image caption, Thutob Namgyal, the Chogyal of the Kingdom of Sikkim whose father Tsugphud Namgyal leased Darjeeling out to EIC in 1835 ... what is EIC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Explained. It is the East India Company Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Here are two incomplete citations I happened to see ... pls check throughout: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
  • "WMO=42295, UV Index, Darjeeling". Retrieved 9 December 2020. Missing publisher
  • "Klimatafel von Darjeeling, West Bengal / Indische Union" (PDF). Baseline climate means (1961–1990) from stations all over the world (in German). Deutscher Wetterdienst. Retrieved 19 March 2020. Use the parameter |trans-title for a translation of the title better formatted, and perhaps |quote= to sort out what is being contained there.

    Used "trans-title" parameter. Did not use "quote" since the source is a table, and no sentence as such to quote.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:53, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

     Done (I had suggested the quote parameter as I thought the long text was a quote). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:16, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  • Another incomplete citation, and must we really use Encyclopedia Britannica for this? Encyclopaedia Britannica (2021), Darjeeling, Darjeeling, also spelled Darjiling, Tibetan Dorje-ling, city, extreme northern West Bengal state, northeastern India. It lies about 305 miles (490 km) north of Kolkata. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

    Removed that Britannica citation altogether. Indeed it was not needed, just for proving the town is in the state of West Bengal, or, elevation.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:53, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

     Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:17, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• • An error: Bernbaum, Edwin (2022), Sacred Mountains of the World (2nd ed.), Cambridge University Press, p. 32, ISBN 9781108834742 {{citation}}: Empty citation (help): Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:58, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
    • I've fixed the Bernbaum error - there was an extra | in the citation. Hog Farm _Talk 18:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
      • Thanks, struck some, will need to revisit all when done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• • Another citation issue: what is this? Mandal, Dilip (13 May 2022). Decade without date – Why India is delaying Census when US, UK, China went ahead during Covid. The Print. In all likelihood, India will not have its decadal census any time soon. The logjam is such that it may lead to a situation where a whole decade goes by without any official data on India and Indians. 2021 was a Census year and the Narendra Modi government decided not to conduct it due to the Covid pandemic. Now, Home Minister Amit Shah has said that the next Census will be an e-survey and carried out by 2024—it will be India's first "digital Census". If it's a website, we need that and the access date. If it's a book, we need a page number. And so on ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:14, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
    • This is a website, and we have the access date (30 July 2022). This quote is given to explain why the latest census data is from 2011, and not 2021, the expected date of the next census.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

      I am talking about a different one ??

      • {{cite book|last=Mandal|first=Dilip|title=Decade without date – Why India is delaying Census when US, UK, China went ahead during Covid|publisher=The Print|date=13 May 2022|quote= In all likelihood, India will not have its decadal census any time soon. The logjam is such that it may lead to a situation where a whole decade goes by without any official data on India and Indians. 2021 was a Census year and the Narendra Modi government decided not to conduct it due to the Covid pandemic. Now, Home Minister Amit Shah has said that the next Census will be an e-survey and carried out by 2024—it will be India's first "digital Census".}}.

      Looks messed up, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

      • • Yes, this was messed up. Essentially, this was the referring to the same article, but citation templates (cite web once, and then cite book twice) were used separately. Now it's been fixed. Tat same reference, now consistently a cite web, has been used 3 times in the article.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

           Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:22, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Does the town or municipality have an official webpage that should be mentioned in External links? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Do we really need all that Further reading, after all those books listed as sources? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Removed. They were references that were moved down from cited works one by one. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Other than a paragraph about its name, History begins with the British. Is there really no known History before the British? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
  • In fact, a bit of the text in the first paragraph here relates to non-British history ... can that be moved up and before the British section? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

    You are right, it is a bit incoherent. Will try to do something. Yes the Nepalese had conquered the region all the way up to the Teesta river to the east of Darjeeling. But whether they established anything there is the question. Conquering often meant the loser signing a paper handing over a vast region without the winner actually establishing a presence, mostly just happy to receive tribute from the conquered peoples. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

    Just moving a bit before the British sub-heading would lessen the impression that we are writing about the area as if it didn't exist before the British. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

    Oh, I see. Yes, that makes good sense. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:51, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

    Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

     Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:45, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  There are claims. There are some dubious nationalistic histories of both India and Nepal that claim there was an outpost there etc. But really this is a British invention (as are pretty much all Hill Stations in India). I will make another thorough search of the literature for anything reliable on pre-British Darjeeling. Townsend Middleton is the leading scholar. I will scour his books and papers for something. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• The article is 8,300 words of prose; must we really have such a long History section, or can that be trimmed/more tightly summarized from History of Darjeeling? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  You are correct. I will reduce it. History of Darjeeling though is a very poorly written page, uncited, with no connection to this history. After having reduced, I could move this history to History of Darjeeling Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Win–win ... so I am going to skip History for now, and try to focus further down in the article. Brain Not Working. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done Reduced the history section. See below Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  Continued below SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:03, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Is Darjeeling Himalayan hill region the same thing as "Darjeeling hills"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:41, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Darjeeling Hills is what is used in the historical sources. I am not sure exactly what the Darjeeling Himalayan region is. It looks like something created by a government. But will double check if it is an internationally recognized geographical region. Good point. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  If so, then add link if warranted ... because people like me wonder what kind of thing (region, etc) the hills are ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Darjeeling Himalayan hill region is a geographic region of the state of West Bengal, rather an economic geography region. We needed to learn about the geographic divisions of the state when we went to school there. In the middle school, our geography book described Darjeeling Himalayan hill region as a economic geographical part of the state. So, it is a man-made entity (bound by political borders).--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Good answer, Dwaipayan. It is good to have you confirm this so definitively. My closest contact with Darjeeling was as a teenager flying to Bangkok Thailand (over India) The pilot pointed to the Himalayas and Mount Everest on the left. I had a window seat and got a perfect view. I'm sure Darjeeling and Kangchenjunga were there somewhere! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, it is the same as Darjeeling Hills. I've drawn a map of the Darjeeling Hills, annotating a CIA map which actually shows he hills and mountains. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  So: this is resolved. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:18, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Why are miles used as the first expression here (consistency with ties to nationality and rest of article)? Taking the ambition forward, the Company negotiated a lease of a 24-by-6-mile (38.6 km × 9.7 km) strip of land in a grant deed ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Probably me. Will flip to km first. Or are you suggesting we do away with miles altogether, keep only kms. (The historical sources even the modern ones tend to have miles.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Flip to be consistent with rest of article, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:17, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Grammatical?? A British exodus from Darjeeling quickly followed, the British selling their businesses, properties, and cottages and leaving India. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Fixed changed to: A British exodus from Darjeeling quickly followed.[39] The Indian upper classes from the plains purchased the cottages in Darjeeling and enrolled their children in the town's many schools ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• There is a wayward something somewhere: when I try to edit "Geography", I am being sent to "1947 onwards: independent India". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  I'm assuming this has been resolved? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done Apparently ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:48, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler I am starting through, marking "done" that which I have checked (slow going as I am still sluggish). Note that, while we cannot use templates on FAC and FAR pages, as they cause archives to hit Template limits, we can use them on talk pages, which don't figure into the templates in FAR archives. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

OK will use them then Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Geography

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:35, 31 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• The excess detail about each mountain here is just cumbersome reading; that info can be found at their articles. If the point is to say these peaks can be seen from Darjeeling, perhaps that can be said without so much detail, which would provide the benefit of being able to remove Encyclopedia Britannica (ugh) as a source. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  removed long list; removed britannica Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• This statement, which is subject to datedness, is cited to 1990: All except those following the 1934 Nepal–India earthquake have been caused by excessive rainfall, in combination with defective drainage, poorly built revetments and the presence of steep slopes that have been undercut to make shelves for paths, roads, and houses.[88] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  A newer source,[1] was added; does it verify "all except those ... have been caused"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:06, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  No, the new reference does not explicitly state that all landslides, except 1934 quake, was due to rain. However, it enumerates major landslide events in Darjeeling hills, and also discusses the reasons of landslides in general (includes rainfall, urbanization, tectonics etc). May be we shoudl rephrase the sentence in some thing like:" Lanslides are common in the area. Causes include tectonic movements (such as in the 1934 quake), excessive rainfall, bad drainage ..." What do you think Fowler&fowler --Dwaipayan (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Sounds good. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:37, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Well, I just took a look at M&M. They say on pages 1 and 2::

  All these are mountainous regions where landslides are the significant natural denudation process and caused by several factors like geology, relief, morphology etc. and triggered by rainfall, earthquakes, rapid stream erosion, storm waves etc. The occurrences of landslides over the hilly landscape of the Darjeeling Himalaya are the most serious concern which creates constant problems and serious damages to properties and lives as well as hampering the communication line every year. However, the process has been accelerated by extensive deforestation, unsystematic and unscientific constructional activities, inadequate drainage system, urban expansion, rapid changes of land use practices etc. In this hilly region, landslides commonly occurred on cut slopes, embankments alongside roads and highways and also occurred near the high-rise apartments and residential areas. So, the proper management is needed to minimize the hazardous impacts of landslides events.

  Which is just Gerrard (local MIT boy) paraphrased, and M&M is 2019. Tell you what give me an hour and I'll find modern sources for the geology section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  I think they are all paraphrasing Gerrard, who must have been some kind of genius of Himalayan geology. Don't know what happened to him. I can't find any later references to him. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:05, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Done up to "roads and houses" Paraphrased "rapid stream erosion" to "quick erosion caused by torrents." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• This is also cited to 1990, raising questions about potential changes due to/update needed per climate change: The rivers of the region have high surface runoff from melting glaciers or monsoon rainfall.[87] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:28, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:20, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Ditto: this entire section needs update (all of Gerrard 1990 needs examination): The flow rate of the Teesta varies from 10,000 cubic feet (280 m3) per second to 100,000 cubic feet (2,800 m3) per second; it has had major floods in 1950 and 1968.[87] (And the next sentence.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:25, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Will look into this. I'm sure there are more modern sources for each of those, but not as comprehensive. So the 1990 source supplemented with the updates for the specific sentence is what I shall be doing Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done OK, I've done as much as can be done, I think. I've kept Gerrard for only the bread and butter geology of the Himalayas. For the more specific stuff I have either gotten rid of him, or supplemented him with recent stuff. The younger geologists of the Himalayas are writing aplenty but none are writing text books, or for that matter lucid prose.

  I have to go buy treats for our cat; she's been pestering. I'll finish Economy after I return and then reduce History tomorrow. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• This sentence seems oddly placed, last: According to the Bureau of Indian Standards, the Darjeeling town falls under seismic zone-IV, (on a scale of I to V, in order of increasing proneness to earthquakes).[90] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Yeah, the first paragraph and this sentence is what was there from before; the rest I have written. Will mull this over. Leaning to removing this altogether. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  moved the seismiz zone sentence immediately after the ever-present earthquake hazard information. Please have a look. --Dwaipayan (talk) 19:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• This should have a page number ... text can probably be cited to something else: Spate, O. H. K; Learmonth, A. T. A (2017) [1967], India and Pakistan: A General and Regional Geography, Routledge Library Editions: British in India Series, Volume 12, London and New York; originally London: Routledge; originally, Methuen and Co. Ltd, ISBN 978-1-138-29063-1 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  I see there is a page number there " p. 476". --Dwaipayan (talk) 19:20, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Climate and environment

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC) }}

• Is the climate data in the sources in the Climate table the latest available? Seems a bit old, but perhaps that is all there is ... The first paragraph of the text uses newer sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:36, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, this is the latest reliable reference for normal climate data. It seems the India Meteorological Department (IMD) is coming up with new data (upto 2020) soon. For example, they updated the rainfall normal for the whole country based on 1971-2020 data. The text do uses some other references, perhaps newer, but I think we should stick to climatological normals from IMD for the climate table.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:32, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done Best we can do, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• MOS:CURRENT, time context is lacking, last 116 since when, from when to when? During the last 116 years Darjeeling's average temperature has increased by 4°C, ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Changed to "since the beginning of the twentieth century". --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Wikipedia articles are mirrored on other sites that do not have links. How is the reader to know which map is being referenced here, if they have linkless text? For its water the Darjeeling municipality and the surrounding hills depend to a large extent on perennial or seasonal jhora springs (map), especially during the pre-monsoon months from February to May. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:23, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Ditto (map) and also MOS:CURRENT, 100 years ago from when ?? Be specific on dates. The Senchal Lakes, two artificial reservoirs built nearly 100 years ago in a forested high-altitude area to the southeast (map), SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  mentioned exact years. --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Partially done, we still have the map issue to be resolved (... the Darjeeling municipality and the surrounding hills depend to a large extent on perennial or seasonal jhora springs (map), ...) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:23, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Ditto ... 50 years since when, and remain as of when? Be specific with dates ... ] Darjeeling's explosive population growth in the last 50 years, and extensive deforestation even within the protected catchment area for the lakes, have caused many springs to have vastly reduced yields during the dry months from February to May. highlight|Of the 26 springs that had once fed the lakes, 14 remain.[99] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:42, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Darjeeling&type=revision&diff=1101269702&oldid=1101269448 Changed] to "since 1970s. --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Counterexample, this one is done correctly and will endure: Forests and pastures have shrunk from 78% in 1900 to 38% in 2000, and cultivated land, which contributes to soil erosion, has correspondingly increased during the same time from 20% to 44%.[101 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done (except 14 lakes). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:34, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• MOS:CURRENT, "Recent", cited to 2006 ... be specific with as of dates ... Recent land records in Darjeeling show that the area of farmland that produces food grains has decreased proportionally, caused by high levels of urbanisation and by subsistence farming giving way to commercial cropping, especially tea.[102] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• have been observed in the Eastern Himalayas with the pH value in Darjeeling measured to be 4.2. ... date for measurement ? ... with a 4.2 pH value recorded in Darjeeling in x year. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done I've taken care of all outstanding issues (by looking at the sources; in some instances, they themselves were using vague language, and I've paraphrased them as precisely as I could). Tell me what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done, one outstanding still (above). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Flora and fauna

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• Concerned about 1992 sourcing; no changes in twenty years? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  I didn't write this section, economy (to which I will add something) and culture. Will examine all carefully.

  The information sourced from Negi 1992 largely pertains to native flora and fauna, which remains relatively unchanged (the forest coverage, or the number of certain animals can certainly change). Conservation data, however, can change significantly over three decades. Information related to conservation (such as, for red pandas) is from more recent references.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Section  Done satisfied here, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Civic administration

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 30 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• What is a ward in India? Do we have a link? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  To be honest I am not sure. Modern India seems to have little or no documentation. That is why the British period is popular among historians (they documented the slightest detail). Ward is probably not much different from a ward in, say, Chicago. But I will find a link. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:35, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Wards are electoral sub-divisions of a municipality. Each wards elect one councillor to represent in the municiap board/corporation. See Wards of Kolkata Municipal Corporation as an example.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Taken care of Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Why can't that be linked at first occurrence? Does the first occurrence refer to something else? [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk)

• I'm fairly certain MOS says not to capitalize these ... headed by a Chair and a Vice-chair.

  Downcased and linked to chairperson etc

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Time context lacking ... that many hotels as of when, and reduced from x as of when to y as of when? The area of the town (municipality) which used to be 10.75 square kilometres (4.15 sq mi) was reduced to 7.43 square kilometres (2.87 sq mi) after bifurcation.[8] The town has approximately 22,000 households and 350 hotels and restaurants.[8] ... which was x in year y was reduced to a in year b. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Done. Good points all. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• OK to re-introduce a link to Gorkha this far in to the article? From 1988 to 2012, the Gorkha-dominated hill areas of Darjeeling district SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:57, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Re-introduced] Gorkha in that sentence.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  I've tweaked it. The Wikilink is Indian Gorkha, piped. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• So, all points addressed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  All good, but please doublecheck what I did with Wards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Looks good Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Section  Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Demographics

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:37, 30 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• Something wonky here ... female literacy rate was 91.31% and the male 96.41%.5. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Do you mean they should be equal, or in my usual ellipses I didn't add the male "literacy rate was ...?} Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  96.41.5 ... is it supposed to .45 ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Fixed. It was 96.41. Thanks for noticing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• MOS:CURRENT, time context missing ... During the last 50 years, there has been a rapid growth ... which 50 years .. until when or from when or as of when ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Changed to: During the period 1961–2011, the population of Darjeeling increased rapidly ... (Fixed) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Can this be split in two? I got lost ... In Darjeeling, Gorkhas form a large majority of population and include several ethnic groups such as the Chhetri, Gurung,[33] Limbu, Magar, Newars,[33] Rai, Sherpa,[67] Tamang,[33] Yolmo, Sunuwar along with other denominations under the Indo-Aryan Khas; the Tibeto-Burman ethnic group include Kirati, Lepcha and Bhutia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Taken care of this. Written at a higher level, less listy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Time context ... since what decade or as what century or staring in what year ... context needed ... Many educated young people in Darjeeling have begun to migrate out because the growth of jobs in the area has not kept pace with the numbers of people with tertiary degrees. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Good point. Need to look at the paper. The option: As of (the date of the source) will not work Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Can't we just move "21st-century occurrence" up to here? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Switched the sequence of the first two sentences, to have the educated young people moving out of Darjeeling sentence come under the coverage of same time frame (21st century). Please have a look.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:22, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Time context missing ... substantial migration among middle-class youth is a recent occurrence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  OK, all good points, which I will fix in the next couple of hours. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Civil utilities

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)}}

• Wikipedia mirrors cannot capture this link: To see the relation of the Senchal Lakes to the town of Darjeeling view this map. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
• on the water pipeline ??? ... had been undertaken of the water pipeline from Senchal

  changed to "on" the pipeline.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02

  23, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• six-fold since when ? By 2011, the population of the municipality had increased six-fold,

   Done between 1911 and 2011. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• I am not concerned about these links to images, as they are clearly labeled and readers can find them on mirrors, but the links are oddly placed/phrased. (Can they be a (see Figure 2) attached to the specific sentence they refer to ? It's unclear it they refer to the one after or before. ... (Figure 2) Increasing demand has led to a worsening shortfall in the water supply.[136] ... collected from local jhora or springs.[137](Figure 1) Larger private businesses ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Like this ? [3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

    Sure. I used to write: see ... but in my last FAR, I'm blanking on his name, the guy who FAR'd it, said, "At FAR they frown on "see") :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

    Talk:Political_history_of_Mysore_and_Coorg_(1565–1760)#WP:FAR But I do prefer See ... Will fix. I didn't write the numbers because maps galore were being churned up ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

    I agree that "see map" is frowned on ... you have to label it explicitly so the reader of a hard copy or of a mirror knows exactly which map is being referred to. Which is why See Figure 1, when Figure 1 is labeled, works. It can't be only a hyperlink, as hyperlinks don't work in mirrors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

    PS, Figure 2 is labeled in the article; Figure 1 is not, so unless it is, yes, we have the same objection as Graham Beards had at FAC ... we are sending the reader out of the article to a map that isn't reproduced in Wikipedia mirrors or hard print. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

     Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• I don't know why this sentence is placed where it is ??? In the last census, 21,782 households were recorded in the municipality.[4] What is the relationship to water?

  Removed this sentence. The approximate number of household has been mentioned under Civic administration already.

• As of date needed ... Every day 30 metric tonnes of solid waste are generated

  Will fix Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

  As of 2020. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:13, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

   Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:13, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Undone, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, I'm working on this next. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:18, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done I've labeled all the graphs and maps. If there reference is to a figure in the same section, I have (Figure N). If the the figure is in a different section, I have the (see Figure N) with the link. I have not made a distinction between maps and graphs (i.e. also having (see Map N); that could become confusing for the reader who is not able to click. In the vicinity of Figure N, they wouldn't know whether to scroll up or down for Map N-2, say. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:32, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Economy

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 30 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• Two most significant aspects of Darjeeling's economy are tourism and tea. ... The two most? Two of the most ?? Those two options would mean different things.

• Changed to -- Tourism and tea are the main contributor to Darjeeling's economy.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Cited to 2001 ... recent ... The tea industry has faced competition in recent years from tea produced in other parts of India as well as other countries such as Nepal.[146]

• Provided 2021 newspaper reference for counterfeit Darjeeling tea from Nepal.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Plans? Cited to 2004 ... update needed: Several tea estates are being run on a workers' cooperative model, while others are being planned for conversion into tourist resorts.[147]

• Provided 2022 references for partial transformation of tea estates to tourist resorts.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• ???? ... they have spent less on average, resulting in Darjeeling's luxury tourism increasingly to give way to mass tourism. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Changed the last sentence to "Since India's economic liberalisation in 1991, tourism in Darjeeling has become cheaper, and Darjeeling, once considered a luxury destination, has become accessible to mass tourism".

Please have a look. Hope it is ok with Fowler also. --Dwaipayan (talk) 20:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Section  Done for me, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Transport

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 30 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• as of date ... The average width of Darjeeling's roads is between 6 metres (20 ft) and 7 metres (23 ft).

  Provided as of year.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Section  Done for me, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:54, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Culture

Issues listed addressed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:27, 30 July 2022 (UTC)}}

• I do not understand the paragraph structure in the top of this section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
• Same later on ... football is in the food paragraph ???

  One reason of mixing of themes within one paragraph is otherwise there is the possibility of quite a few short paragraphs short paragraphs, alongside some meaty paragraphs. Is that ok? --Dwaipayan (talk) 02:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Mixing sport and food is odder than having a short para, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Tried to create separate paragraphs, based on themes. Removed purely tourism-oriented sentence. Described the paragraph themes in edit summary. The only (as far as I can sense) mixed theme paragraph is the carnival, music and literary (minor mention) things.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Why is churpee italicized, and why is it not Chhurpi?

  de-italicized] and changed to Chhurpi.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• The final paragraph mixes places to visit, with Himalayan treks (which go off topic) then comes back to architectural interest and monasteries. What is the para structure here ?

  Removed places to visit (Botanical garden was already mentioned in Flora and fauna); Himalayan treks and sports (football) have been amalgamated together in one paragraph.--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Better, but I will revisit when we get everything else sorted, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what this means? The Tibetan Buddhism, or Lamaism, prevalent in the area is noted for the importance of gompa or monasteries in the community life of the followers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:21, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  simplified to " Followers of Tibetan Buddhism, or Lamaism, have established several gompa or monasteries".--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Can this:

• Popular icons of Hindu pantheon such as Durga, Kali, Shiva are worshipped by Hindus; in addition, there are deities which have both Hindu and Buddhist influences, such as Manjushri and Macchindranāth, popular among Newar people, and Gorakhnath, worshipped by Gorkhas.

be this instead ?

• Popular Hindu deities are Durga, Kali, Shiva; other deities with both Hindu and Buddhist influences, such as Manjushri and Macchindranāth, are popular among Newar people, and Gorakhnath, and worshipped by Gorkhas. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• done--Dwaipayan (talk)

• Can this:

  Darjeeling Carnival, initiated by a civil society movement known as The Darjeeling Initiative, is a ten-day carnival held yearly during the winter with the portrayal of the Darjeeling Hill's musical and cultural heritage as its central theme.

be this instead?

• The Darjeeling Initiative, a civil society movement, initiated the ten-day Darjeeling Carnival in (year); it celebrates Darjeeling Hill's musical and cultural heritage each year in (month).

• We have to avoid winter, per MOS:SEASON, and if we're going to say they initiated it, we should probably specify the year ... else just remove that they initiated it, and say they hold, sponsor, whatever it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  done.--Dwaipayan (talk)

I will revisit the paragraph structure here once I understand the rest of the section better ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Looks good now, except for the uncited bit ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

The incited bit has been removed. Similar info (Tenzing Norway and Mountaineering institute is mentioned in history).--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I am getting the idea what you are looking for: simple sentences, and active voice. Yes, I noted the cn tag for the two sentences. I will try but possibly F&f has better (academic) sources.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I've generally stayed away from this section. I do have very modern sources for the cuisine, i.e. not the stuff of restaurants, but the native food of the region (which the tourists hardly ever eat). I still think cuisine should be a separate section, but perhaps there is not enough time for that now, with the TFA looming. The other culture stuff is complicated. From the few sources I've read, it seems the culture has moved away from celebrating the "discrete" traditional festivals of different communities; there are all sorts of mixed practices that have appeared within the last 20 or 30 years. One such is described, for example, in Lama and Rai's Choko Pani (which is in the cited works and available on line). I fear that the manner in which the culture is presented might make the locals of Darjeeling shrug their shoulders (i.e. with a whatever) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

That major modern sources are not yet used is not good news. Can't you at least come up with a sentence or two quickly? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:49, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Sure Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:05, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll add a short paragraph on the culture of violence and of rowdy men that has arisen in Darjeeling in the wake of the Gorkhaland movement. Besky 2014 (The Darjeeling Distinction) and Chettri 2018 (Rowdies of Darjeeling) have enough on that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Education

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:39, 31 July 2022 (UTC) }}

• Are there any links explaining these grades? The primary schools (up to class or grade IV) and post-primary (classes V to VIII)

  Can this explain primary and post-primary grades?--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  The sentences there are cited to Blackwell, Fritz (2004), India: A Global Studies Handbook, ABC-CLIO, ISBN 1-57607-348-3. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:53, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  I just checked, it is pages 93-95. Has quite a bit on India, but nothing on Darjeeling. Please hold on. Let me look some more. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:58, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  The education pattern (primary, secondary) etc followed in schools of Darjeeling follows the pattern prescribed in either West Bengal Board of Primary Education, West Bengal Board of Secondary Education, Central Board of Secondary Education, or Indian Certificate of Secondary Education (mostly). So, the patterns of schools in India will mostly be applicable to regular schools in Darjeeling (unless, the school follow some specific religious boards such as West Bengal Board of Madrasah Education, which, incidentally, follows WB Secondary Education for all practical purposes). So, I think if we have good reference on Indian school education system, that would be applicable for Darjeeling.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Dwaipayanc working that link in somewhere would suffice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:32, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  provided that wiki link.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:32, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:36, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Likewise, the first few paragraphs need better structure ... mixes thoughts ... what is the theme of each para? Eg, shouldn't the bits about tea gardens be their own paragraph?

• I am not sure whether the structure has been changed since this comment. As of this version, the first paragraph is on schooling structure (medium of instruction, primary etc) plus mid-day meal to aid retention. The second paragraph's theme is the plight of the tea-estate workers. The third paragraph mentions the schools established by the British, and that these schools caters to not-so-affluents also. In addition, this paragraph mentions college education situation. Do we need to separate the college situation? Any other thoughts?--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• A wayward comma (??) and high quality according to whom, attribution needed ... The elite schools established in Darjeeling during the British period chiefly for the education of the children of the domiciled British,[s] now offer English-medium instruction of high quality to Indians.[183]

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• Time context ... One recent study --> A xxxx study (specify year) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  I think I've taken care of the last two points. I don't know much about the earlier stuff with the grades. I searched but couldn't find anything on the education of the poor people (the public school-going kids), the vast majority, which was odd. Will try again tomorrow. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:36, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Stopping now; will revisit starting afresh at History tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

This section good, but for working in link mentioned above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Confused, we have two articles:

• St. Joseph's School, Darjeeling
• St Joseph's College, Darjeeling

This article is linking to the College, but their articles seem to imply we should be linking to the School? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

That happened because it used to be called College sort of like "Eton College" (and is so in the sources). The name was changed to school, I'm guessing when the post-secondary college was founded. Will fix. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Should I still call it St Joseph's College but link it to St Josephs School, or call it St Joseph's School (even in the history section)? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:44, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I dunno. If it helps, I was trying to figure out if then it was a primary school, high school, or "college" in the US sense of the word (post-secondary) ... when I found there were two different things ... which left me even more confused. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Lead

Resolved, continues below, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)}} I'm not convinced that everything in the lead, about the Railway, is in the body. The lead also bounces around a bit. As one example, the Railway is mentioned in three different paras, schools in two, so it's hard to tell what the paragraph structure in the lead is trying to do. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, this was pointed out by HF as well and is to be fixed this weekend by me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:35, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I have to rewrite parts of the Economy section where the details which are summarized in lead were meant to go. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Rewrite pending SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:44, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:03, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Better, but the organization of paragraphs is still bouncing around, and there is still text that is not in the body, but this can be left for after the other issues are addressed. When all done, will need to be sure it is in sync with Wikipedia:Today's featured article/August 15, 2022, and all text in lead is in the body. Once you are farther along, I might suggest some different paragraphing of the lead, but I think continuing to work there for now will distract from other work needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

comments on lead by Dwaipayan

I think the following sentences in the lead may need attention, as the theme/information of these sentences may not have been explicitly mentioned in the body of the article. I do not think I am capable of addressing these. Please see Fowler&fowler

• "as the British left Darjeeling, its cottages were purchased by wealthy Indians from the plains and its tea plantations by out-of-town Indian business owners and conglomerates". That the tea plantations were bought by out-of-town Indian business owners and conglomerates have not been mentioned in the body of the article (History section would be appropriate)

  The first part (cottages etc) is in the history section; the second is in the beginning of Economy. In turn, it cites Shneiderman and Middleton (2018) who state: "India’s independence from British rule in 1947 brought significant changes to Darjeeling, but also troubling continuities. Darjeeling’s governmental and economic structure remained largely intact—as did its legend. Importantly though, as British officials vacated their posts and British tea planters sold off their tea estates, it was not the local Nepali-speaking populations that filled these vacancies, but Indian politicians and businessmen from the plains below. The postcolonial era paradoxically ushered in a new wave of colonial domination—an internal neocolonialism—that persists into the twenty-first century. Economically, Darjeeling’s tea industry quickly came to be dominated by Bengali and Marwaris, as well as large-scale corporate conglomerates based elsewhere in India.  Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:13, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Darjeeling hills were created by the same geological processes that created the Great Himalayas. " This is also not explicitly mentioned in geography section of the article.
• " Darjeeling's population increased four-fold between 1951 and 2011, largely from immigration. ". "largely from immigration" part is not mentioned/explained in History/Demographics section.
• "Surrounded by tea gardens and forestry department land, the town has no room for expansion. " I doubt this has been hinted in the article. Not sure. I mean the article mentions congestion, small size of town etc, but does not really state "it has no room for expansion"
• ". Tourists flock to Darjeeling in numbers that are annually three to four times the town's population." Although not explicitly mentioned in the article, it is derivable (since annual number of tourists and town's population are mentioned). So, I think this is ok.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:58, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll take care of these after I've expanded Economy and Culture a bit. I will then rewrite the lead. Those three are the only outstanding issues left from my perspective. Thanks, Dwaipayan. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done OK, all. I've rewritten the lead. I tried to toe the WP line last time and it read like crap. So, this time I have what is the summary of my gleanings of the literature of the last six months. Don't worry too much about this or that not being in the main body, for I can easily fix that. Please tell me only about internal consistency and coherence. I mean the lack thereof. Going to bed now. Will look tomorrow, but this is the version I would be ready to fight for. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:07, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Dwaipayanc if you are satisfied with the new lead, I can collapse this section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, absolutely satisfied. Please collapse, thanks!--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:20, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Dwaipayanc. But actually, now that we are done with this talk page, and close to closing the FAR, I'll uncollaspe everything so it will be searchable for posterity. Glad to see you back here! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Other

Resolved, citation consistency check needed when further along SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 31 July 2022 (UTC) }} Why are we mixing CS1 and CS2 citation styles (cite templates and citation templates)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm, that's way beyond my technical knowledge. If the recommendation is to stick to one style, I think CS1 (cite web, cite journal etc) is preferable, right?--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I though Citation was the more modern one, flexible for all. No complications. I have always used it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

See the India page, except for the first half a dozen, the fluff added by drive bys, everything else is in citation format. It was arranged by Rjensen. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have waited before a consensus perhaps (I went ahead and changed many from citation to cite book etc0. Also, is there any problem if both CS1 and CS2 are used?--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have any issues.

I am personally not a fan of the old cite book, cite journal, cite web, ... formats. Citations works for all, much simpler. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

At this point, we should do what is easiest. Most FAs these days do not use the old citation template, rather cite book, cite web, cite journal, etc. There are only three citation templates left; if/once they are removed, it will be easier to check the article for citation consistency and incomplete citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Dwaipaync, the problem is they yield different outputs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I beleive all "citation" templates have been replaced appropriately with cite book, cite web etc.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:46, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Good, I will get around to a citation consistency check soon. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Search the text for all occurrences of the word recent; see if they can be clarified. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Very good point.  :) Excellent critical skills Sandy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I have addressed couple of "recent'. Could nt exactly figure out how to fix this one: "Although seasonal migration has long been a local feature, especially among the lower-income groups, substantial migration among middle-class youth is a recent occurrence" Do we add "according to a 2017 publication/paper"? --Dwaipayan (talk) 21:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Something like ... a 21st-century occurrence ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Done. Thank you both D & SG Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I have run out of steam ... still soooooo tired all the time since COVID. Losing focus. Will start in again in the morning. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• It seems that foreign words needs to be italicized . Should not Chhurpi, Momo etc be italicized?--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Unless they are proper nouns, see MOS:BADITALICS. So probably yes on Chhurpi?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Okay, so, it seems "isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialized English" needs to be italicized. In that case, majority of the festivals, food items, and some deity names may need to be italicized. Well, my grammar is weak. Are festival names proper nous (in yes, festival names would not need to be in italics)? Please guide. Only if you/F&f give green signal, can turn those non-English terms to italics. Thanks!--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Deities, festivals, and the like are proper nouns; they don't need italics. Food is harder for me to tell (is it a generic or a brand sort of thing). Don't sweat it some pedant will go through on TFA day and fix them anyway :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:02, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  For example, bleach is a common noun; Clorox is a proper noun. I don't know about these food items. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:04, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

  Got it. I used italics for non-brand food items. In Indian English, momo has become a regular word, still used italics.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Hope you feel better SandyG. Please don't overextend yourself. Dwaipayan and I have enough on our plates for today. You could very well take the day off. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:26, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't feel over-extended; it's that when the fatigue comes on, unpredictably, it's so sudden that I Have To Sleep Right Now :) So, I need to explain my sporadic level of help here! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

History

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC) }} I don't know what this means:

• Indians living in British India could own property in Darjeeling but not residents of princely states.
  • Indians living in British India could own property in Darjeeling but residents of princely states could not?
  • Indians living in British India could own property in Darjeeling but could not own property in princely states?

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

The second. But I had been meaning to take this out altogether, as it is really not needed. Will do tomorrow AM.

Removed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:27, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

•  Done Trimmed by a third from 2963 words to 1962; the total prose size of the article is down from 8049 to 7048. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Why do we need this sentence ? "Other hill stations and summer capitals such as Simla, Ooty, and Nainital were established between 1819 and the 1840s.[6][27][28]" SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Resolved, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

What is halting? "ascending some 1,900-metre (6,300 ft), and requiring significant halting". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Is this it? Train_station#Halt ? Or does it mean they need to stop often to build up steam? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

This was before the mountain railway. It was the horse carriages that were taking them up the Darj Hill Road which rose 6000 ft. They had stations for changing horses, feeding them every so often Will rephrase. I thought it would be useful for the reader to know how involved an operation this was, how it was using the labor both of animals and the locals. Six men would sometimes carry a British visitor up a hilly track in a palanquin type carriage and so forth Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I thgink readers may get confused because of this sentence " A train service to Darjeeling was announced in 1872, and by 1878 the train could take summer residents to Siliguri." We have to clarify that the train line mentioned in this sentence is not the one from foothills to darjeeling; rather it is the one from Kolkata (and perhaps other places in India) to Siliguri at the foothills. Then, the travellers had to climb up the mountain to darjeeling, in horse carts or human bearers. --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:50, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I've just done that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I am happy with this if Dwaipayanc is ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:31, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely, the scenario is clear now. I am very happy :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

It is a very nice read and I am satisfied now with the size, pending two issues above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed ASAP Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done OK, SandyG and Dwaipayan, I've clarified more. They were "halting barracks," i.e. stables for feeding watering or changing the horses. I've left "watering" in. If you think the average reader will think it means hosing them down, please tell me and I'll take it out. I've also explained the context of the other hill stations, i.e. that Darjeeling was not unique; they were all the result of the Company extending its rule and the British feeling confident enough about the presence in India to plan these ventures. I apologize for it being so confusing. I was shaking me head reading that paragraph (made worse by the deletions). Tell me what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:44, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler everything left in my section is highlighted in yellow (above). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Missing

Underdeveloped content

Addressed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Health

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 5 August 2022 (UTC) }}

• Demographics would normally include something on health, eg hospitals at minimum (there is probably more to say in this case re the health of plantation workers).[4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  That is the district site. This article is about the municipality a small 3 sq mile island in the district and the adjoining plantations. Let me see what I can find. This is part of the problem with the literature. Very little is about the municipality. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:04, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  And it's often hard to distinguish (glad you are). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Tourism

Satisfied, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 5 August 2022 (UTC)}}

• I gather there is a "toy" train and "real" train? Does the toy train need to be mentioned in tourism? (Or transport?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Moved it to tourism. It seems the old steam engines are now used for the short stretch from Darjeeling to Ghoom the highest point of the route. Thereafter to the base of the hills they use diesel engines.

  Both journeys are for tourists. Both trains move slowly, sometimes very slowly, and halt frequently. I'll add something more about the attractions of the slow-motion journeys from Roy and Hannam 2013. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• Tourism is underdeveloped; sources like this one provide graphic descriptions of the area's attraction (there may be better sources, but we somewhere need to explain why tourists flock there in terms such as this source does). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Same here; "Darjeeling in the northern part of West Bengal is considered as one of the most magnificent hill resorts in the world offering natural beauty in the form of serene snow peaks, splendid green and steep hills crisscrossed by lush-green tea-gardens, dense forests rich in rare species of flora and fauna, crowned by the majestic Himalayas and thus attracts nature lovers from all walks of life." Not recommending these sources per se, but the tourism attraction could be better spelled out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  An image of the natural beauty of the region, to offset all the landslides and maps, would be nice. File:Terraced gardens in Rock Garden, Darjeeling, India.jpg was the best I could find; there must be something better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:02, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  The picture looks great. Please put it in and take my table out. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Note: this is already a tourism picture in that section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  See note below (all so industrial), SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, is this level of detail warranted? Especially when it's not current, and adding a table begs for it to be constantly updated? My suggestion is to summarize it, and add an update, for example:

• Darjeeling has two peak tourism times (explain how the season works see other sources I added, most in the spring, a later peak somewhere else, why are numbers not measured annually in that source ?). A 2018 study recorded the tourist influx into Darjeeling town between 2009 and 2014 as ranging from a low of 243,255 individuals in the 2010–2011 season to a high of 488,675 in 2012–2013; the large majority were domestic tourists, with foreign tourists never comprising more than 35,000 annual visitors. In XXXX (more recent year), total tourism was yyyy.

By adding a table, we require updating, and we leave little room for an image of the natural beauty, which this section really needs.

Also, work in a preface explaining the tourism seasons. I read it somewhere, can't recall how it works, but definitive tourist peaks ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• The text says "A 2018 study recorded the tourist influx into Darjeeling town between 2009 and 2014 as follows:", but the source is dated 2016. (Is that the right source? It's about water ... ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, it is 2016. It is a good source though. Its main strength is that they give the numbers for the municipality, not the hills. I'll now look at the rest of your comments. Please note, there is already a picture there related to tourism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Date fixed. Chart converted to text. Fowler&fowler my concern about the images is we have lots of buildings, maps, charts, trains, trucks, people ... but very little of the natural beauty. It all looks very industrial. Also, can we add something from the sources I listed above describing the tourism attraction, along with something about the tourism seasons? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure about those sources, but I'll try to address the very relevant points you have raised later this morning. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

TFA August 15

This article is scheduled for Wikipedia:Today's featured article/August 15, 2022, per this (malformed) TFA request (Darjeeling should have been requested at its own sub-page). That is about two weeks away. If this article is to clear FAR by next week, in time for the TFA, we need to pick up the pace here. The nomination has been at FAR since December 2021, and there is still a considerable list here on talk.

A good deal of what remains to be done is minor but there's a lot of that, which will take time. The bigger concerns I have are three:

1. The See figure or See map issues needs to be sorted. I don't mind referring to a map or figure within the text as long as that map or figure is explicitly labeled in a way that works in hard print or Wikipedia mirrors, which can't reflect Wikilinks. We can't send readers to a map outside of this page, or to a non-specified "Figure 1". It's OK to say "See Figure 2", when Figure 2 is clearly labeled on this page, and does not required an external jump.

    Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

2. The History section is too long. It is fascinating and well written, but goes in to excess detail which should be at History of Darjeeling. As but one example, we are told of one person whose remains were taken by two different trains to Calcutta for a well-attended funeral; this info is not key to understanding the history of Darjeeling.

   Resolved, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

3. The lead now contains three dense paragraphs, which can be difficult for a reader getting their first glimpse of Darjeeling to scan. While I disagree with strict prescriptions of number of paras at WP:LEAD, the reading here is too dense, and the lead would be well served by having four or five more manageable paragraphs, with a clear thematic arrangement. And we have things in the lead that are not covered anywhere in the body (see UNESCO for one example).

   Eg, this statement in the blurb is nowhere to be found in the lead: The growth in tourism and badly planned urbanisation have both put stress on the region's fragile ecology. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

   Improved, lead work ongoing, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

To clear FAR in time means that other reviewers need to start through this, and to do that without stepping on each other's toes, leaving time for fresh review, means the rest of mine and Hog Farm's list should be cleared up ASAP. @Hog Farm, Buidhe, and Z1720: so this can be on everyone's radar. And, because of the tight timing, it may be wise for Nikkimaria to have a look now, as she is the best at Geography articles; also @FAR coordinators: lest Nikki need to recuse.

It is important to understand that other (non-FAR) main page reviewers will be starting to examine this article and its blurb shortly, and we must get this finished up to avoid a mainpage fiasco. @Gog the Mild: to keep him in the loop. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

For all effective purposes I'm probably unavailable Monday through Wednesday for work. This is going to take a true group effort. Hog Farm _Talk 16:38, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Hog Farm Could you list any major concerns that I might oversee in your absence? My focus is variable, as post-COVID fatigue kicks in big-time every afternoon, and I go down for a hard nap. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll run through it later today. I was three-quarters asleep and on a bad internet connection last time I read through (which, incidentally was on a work trip last week, while my absence this week will be another work trip). Hog Farm _Talk 16:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Great ... I will next go through my list above to see what has been addressed, what remains. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:48, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I have added (temporary) highlighting of issues unaddressed, in addition to the bigger general matters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:50, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Was there something in particular you were hoping to get me to look at? Also conscious of the need to avoid stepping on toes. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria I think we are far enough along that a general look from the geography expert is warranted. I'm not thrilled with the organization of the lead yet, but I think all the basics are mostly in place. Because there is some time pressure here, I was actually hoping you would take a broad brush look, rather than at anything specific. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:22, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler I'm concerned that we need to get this finished up; we are cutting it very close on the TFA date. There is still an uncited sentence in the 1847 onwards section, and the uncited Education text discussed at #HF (take 3). You are creating a masterpiece, which is a joy to read, but today is the 4th, TFA is the 15th, and we have no "Close" declarations (of which we need several) on the FAR yet, with so much work still happening. I don't know if Gog the Mild has a drop-dead date for the article to clear FAR, but Wehwalt told me on another TFA that seven days was about the limit for making adjustments to the blurbs, because at that point, other editors start combing through it. We still have old text in the blurb, as the article isn't yet finished. Can the uncited text be finished up today? You also mentioned in #Culture that cuisine is covered in modern sources that we haven't used yet, and Nikkimaria's issues at #Images should be sorted. Once that is done, I am prepared to declare a Close, after the text settles for a final read-through, but we really should be aiming to close by August 7. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:06, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Strike some, highlight some, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

PS, closing by the 7th means we need Close declarations by then. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:17, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

OK. I'm on it, one by one, starting with Nikkimaria's images. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:27, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Image layout can be fiddled with post-FAR; image policy is what we have to address to get this FAR closed, along with citing the text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

HF (take 3)

Going to look through it now, making a section (for now) to avoid edit conflicts. Hog Farm _Talk 17:39, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

I will stand down until you tell me you are finished :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

The lead needs some work - while it's improved organizationally, it still needs harmonized with the body of the article in places. There's stuff that's only in the lead.

• "Darjeeling's population increased four-fold between 1951 and 2011, largely from immigration" - the population rise from 1961-2011 is mentioned in the body, but the increase amount isn't given and the attribution to immigration doesn't seem to be made. This one stuck out to me the most out of the lead items, but I'd recommend looking closer.

  The lead will need to be rewritten after the Economy; I may add a sentence or two to culture, but economy is my worry right now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  That text is no longer in the lead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

On to the main part of the article:

• It's strongly implied in several parts of the article that the Lepcha were in the general area before the British. Should they be mentioned in the early history section?

  Yes, good idea. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  Mentioned along with the Limbu in the second sentence. Very good point. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Of the 26 springs that had once fed the lakes, 14 remain." - recommend indicating what year the 14 number is from

  Yes, this worried me too. They are different sources I think. Will attend. Good catch. See my last comment: these I can easily fix. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  This has been rejigged, no longer in article, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Ready for civic administration, pausing for now. Hog Farm _Talk 18:22, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• " and nominated again until 1947.[8] After India's independence that year, the first elections took place in 1964" - so what took place between '47 and '64?

• Will fix they had a list of acts enacted etc etc. Will find a way to explain why there was a gap. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Rephrased as: After India's independence that year, the commissioners continued to be appointed until 1964, when the first election was held. It was overturned by a court injunction; further elections and continual interference by West Bengal's state government became the prevalent state of affairs. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• "The annual influx of domestic and foreign tourists into Darjeeling during the period 2005–2009 was several times the town's population; it was estimated to be, successively: 350,000 (2005–2006), 400,000 (2006–2007), 350,000 (2007–2008) and 450,000 (2008–2009)" - any more recent figures?

  I'll look. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  Anything? Those numbers are too old to be useful, so I summarized them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  This 2020 source has the number a bit higher. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not that knowledgeable about post-1947 India, but I doubt that magazine is very reliable. In any case it says: about 500,000 visitors come every year without a date. COVID struck India with exceptional morbidity — by far the worst in the world. I doubt that many tourists, especially foreign ones, came after March or April 2020. Here is another report from a newspaper from 2017 which sounds more reasonable. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  I've just got hold of Tourism and Development in the Himalaya: Social, Environmental, and Economic Forces ed. Gyan P. Nyaupane · Dallen J. Timothy June 2022 · Routledge

  Let's see what I can extract. Indian newspapers, though, with the exception of The Hindu, Calcutta Statesman, Calcutta Telegraph, and perhaps The Indian Express, are not that reliable. The link above is to the The New Indian Express, which is not in this list, but its tone sounds more credible. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  1 lakh = 100,000 Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:32, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  OK I have a scholarly source for tourist numbers for five years between 2009 and 2014. It is an article by Samanta and Koner, two smart women, a different article of whose has already been cited. I think this along with the New India Express story about 2017 should be enough. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:09, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  HF, when you revisit, this has been addressed (but I continue discussion of the tourism numbers and section above). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Water collected from 26 perennial and seasonal springs is routed through stone conduits to the Senchal Lakes (Figure 10) constructed in 1910 and 1932; it is thereafter piped to the town after purification at a filtration plant in Jorebungalow" - I thought only 14 of these springs still worked

• :) Yes, I noticed it too. I'll clarify. It may be that 12 spring are no longer perennial and are depleted during the pre-monsoon season Jan to May. Will check. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Removed. The author had not phrased it unambiguously. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• Something seems to have gone wrong, the first paragraph of education is now uncited

  It looks it may have never been cited; a paragraph break was introduced, so it needs to be determined if the first citation in the second para also verifies the first para. (There's also another cn tag in 1947 onwards).SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:23, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  The first sentences of education were never cited. I had added something about the mid-day meals a government funded program to battle food insecurity. That was rigorously cited, but seems to have disappeared. I spend half an hour earlier today trying to find something about the government schools in the municipality, but no luck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:01, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  I misspoke; here is the pre-FAR version, so all of that text was adding during the FAR. Was this the citation? It was once there, but is no longer ... how much of that para might it cite?

  • Ghosh, Dilip Kumar (2012), "Combating the menace of food insecurity: the experience of West Bengal", Global Food-Price Shocks and Poor People: Themes and Case Studies, London and New York: Routledge, pp. 237–250, 242, ISBN 978--0-415-68298-5 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, this might have been the one I added for the sentence or two about the mid-day meals. Will rummage now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Also, back in May, this version, it was cited to Samaddar 2005, which is gone now. Would that cite most of the basics? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'll check. Don't think I added this one. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Samadar is already covered in the history section (British Raj) with more up-to-date sources. I don't believe we need to go into the history again in education. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Fowler&fowler we need to cite the text in Education; it was previously cited to that source. Getting the uncited sections dealt with is the most critical aspect of this FAR at this stage; we have a entire para uncited in Education, and what I listed above are the sources that had been used in earlier versions to cite that text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:53, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Samadar is the editor. It is really Chakrabarty, Subhas Ranjan (2005). "Silence under freedom: The strange story of democracy in the Darjeeling hills". In Samadar, Ranabir (ed.). The Politics of Autonomy: Indian Experiences. New Delhi and Thousand Oaks, CA: SAGE publications. pp. 173–195. ISBN 0-7619-3452-9.

  But it was only citing the British Raj bit, which is no longer in education, but in History (and uses watertight sources there). What we need in education is something for the medium of instruction and the difference forms of the school overseeing bodies the CSBE and IS--. For the life of me, I have found nothing, that is why I removed that paragraph. Take a look. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  I am iPad editing from the car for the rest of the day, but I think it's good ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  All addressed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• " Dozey, E. C. (1922). A Concise History of the Darjeeling District Since 1835, with a complete itinerary of tours in Sikkim and the District. Calcutta: N. Mukherjee; xxvi, 350 pages including facsimile color frontispiece xx plates (some folded, including portrait, maps, diagram). OCLC 62351881." - is xxvi the page you're citing, or does this need a page number? Also, I'm inclined to think that the various information about the frontispiece etc. is not needed

Interjected commentary from SG resolved, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:54, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I was trying to check on all the cite books (for page nos) etc, and removed a piece of that, but have the same question. I haven't been able to decipher why some book sources, that are used more than once, are not listed in Sources and linked via sfn. Is there a system? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC) Plead guilty. Laziness. Not all are mine, but will fix. Slowly, though, as it will take time. But will do it by week's end. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:37, 2 August 2022 (UTC) If I did the frontispiece thing, it was meant to cite an iconic book in the way it used to be cited. I did something similar for Spate and Learmonth another classic. I sometimes do similar things, e.g. {{cite book|last=Shakespeare|first=William|title=Julius Caesar| *:location=Stratford-upon-Avon|publisher=Thatched House|year=1601| quote=There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at the flood leads on to fortune.}}</ref> to make the full publication show up when the cursor hovers over the citation index at the end of the sentence. I guess I base it on the philosophy that an average person will be less inclined to edified if what they see there is Shakespeare 1601, p. 32. Besides quoting in sfn becomes problematic because it allows you only one with a specific name, year, and page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:57, 2 August 2022 (UTC) All the newspapers though with the possible exception of one have not been added by me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC) I'm happy to fix them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:00, 2 August 2022 (UTC) Fowler&fowler what is it that needs fixing? We should now have all book and journal sources that are used more than once in Works cited, and everything else with ref tags. That's good enough for a consistent citation style. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC) SG you fixed it. So thank you. This is  Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• " "Darjeeling hills showing highly positive tourist inflow picture". timesofindia-economictimes. Retrieved 30 December 2015." - link redirects to a homepage, needs author (if one given) and the publishing date

  I repaired the dead link, and the text was wrong; [5] that was a 2013 number, so an update is needed here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  This 2020 source was still saying about 500,000 annual tourism; perhaps Dwaipayanc knows if this is a good source to use for updating.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Oh yes, India Today is a well-established magazine, and certainly a reliable source, perhaps more reliable than Times of India.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Continued in tourism above, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:07, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• ""Cultural Flows in the Singalila Borderlands Trans-Border Linkages in East-Nepal, Sikkim and Darjeeling"." - incomplete reference, needs publisher, author(s), and date

  Done, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Besky 2017 isn't used, recommend removing or adding to a further reading list

• Just added for use in economy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:40, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Now used. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• Ditto with Sen 2018

• Ditto Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:40, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Also used Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Pardon me. Not used and moved to Further Reading by SG Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:01, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn't read through the economy section closely, as it was marked with a work ongoing tag when I did my read-through. Hopefully these don't overlap with Sandy's comments too much. Hog Farm _Talk 23:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, working on economy, which is my first priority right now. I will address these issues thereafter. Thanks HF for catching these, and you too SandyG, as usual.Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:40, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

  I'm starting the rewrite now. Had to process a lot. The tone, perspective, and nuance will keep swinging like a pendulum for a while, so please bear with me. I should have a first cut in a few hours. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

  I am happy with Economy, but made a lot of little tweaks that should be checked. I also moved two unused source to Further reading; pls check. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

  SG I managed to use one of them. So moved up again. Thanks for noticing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

HF please read economy. It's finished. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

It has some long quotes which I will paraphrase later. Too tired last night. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:34, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Citations and sources

There is no Besky 2014:

• Besky 2014, p. 84. Harv error: link from CITEREFBesky2014 doesn't point to any citation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

You must have seen in during the 30 seconds between my writing 2004 in the cite book and correcting the error to 2014! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done, struck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:04, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Btw, she does say that the tea plantation population which lives below Darjeeling, had begun to mushroom, and to gradually move up into Darjeeling.

I think the population increase due to immigration that I have added in the lead might have been an allusion to that, but short of a source that uses the word immigration, I'm leaning to taking it out of the lead for now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

seen "it" I meant Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• Pesky Besky still: Besky, Sarah (2020). Tasting Qualities: The Past and Future of Tea. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0520303249. LCCN 2019042808. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFBesky2020.

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Also, Sen still in Further reading, underutilized? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  OK, I'll see what happened. Besky was mentioned ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Added now. Will prune Economy by the end of the day, but without losing its cites.

  Amazing work SG. The separation into Books and Journals is excellent. Hats off!! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:59, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Should we be using Sen or removing it from Further reading? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:37, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Sen can be removed. It is not really a further reading book. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:37, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

   Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Images

• The first image here mentions two Namgyals who are mentioned nowhere in the text (meaning also that the caption text is uncited). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Addressed by adding to infobox. But there is still no mention in the article, so it would be helpful to cite the image caption. Which of the three citations in the infobox verifies the image caption? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

   Done image removed, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:56, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• The charts would generally benefit from being scaled up
• File:Joppen1907India1805aDarjeelingNepal.jpg needs an author date of death. Ditto File:IGI1908India1857b-coloured_-_Hill_Stations.jpg
• File:Thutob_Namgyal.jpg: the source link is dead - what book is being referenced here?
• File:Map_of_Darjeeling_Municipality,_Darjeeling_District,_West_Bengal_India.jpg needs a data source. Ditto File:Map_of_Senchal_Lakes,_the_water_supply_source_in_relation_to_Darjeeling.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:29, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  I made the charts larger, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:37, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you

  SG They look good! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  We're getting there ... I won't be home the rest of today, but if we can get that one sentence in 1847 Onwards cited, I'll be ready to recommend a Close subject to others reviewing ... I am now too close to the text, and we need someone to comb through one more time. Is the lead done? Did you get the other issues Nikkimaria wanted fixed on images ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  OK, Father Joppen, whose demise was not recorded (though HLO Garrett published a revised ed. in 1938) has gone, replaced by an oil on paper by Marianne North (d 1890).

  Namgyal has also been replaced by oil on paper by North. Though they were painted later in 1878, both seem uncannily appropriate for the accompanying text. (So now we also have some early scenic views which I had added earlier, but then took them out.

  I've attributed the two maps I used. I may have used the firs first one too faithfully when drawing the Jhora springs. If you think it is too close visual paraphrasing, I'm happy to redraw less faithfully. I have to change the color of the springs to blue per a talk page post and also make "Batasia loop" less about Cuban history. It is currently Batista loop. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

  Nikkimaria recheck? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  When were the North works first published? The given dates appear to be creation. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:39, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Nikkimaria. Couldn't figure out, so traded North for two pics from Hooker's journal published 1854. Please take a look Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, that's fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:32, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Stragglers

• I think we can write the long quote on toilets/sanitary/menstruation in our own words (F&f, would you like me to do that?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Linkable articles are Menstrual hygiene management#Sanitation facilities at schools and WASH#In schools. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Please do. I didn't myself because drive-bys mess less with direct quotes. But please do. Also, I'm tired from finding the reliable sources. Most sources are rhapsodizing about the boarding schools to which most Darjeelan's (if that is a word) don't go, only the rich kids from everywhere else. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:06, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Done, pls check. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Dwaipayanc the Education section is mixing digits and roman numerals ... grade 10, class VIII ... what is the convention, and how should this be standardized? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

  Done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:33, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

See Figure analysis

From this version

Fowler&fowler, let me know if you want me to work on these (meaning the references in text to figures in images):

1. Figure 1 is not mentioned outside of the section where it is used; it is not needed, can be removed entirely
2. There is no Figure 2
3. Figure 3 is not mentioned outside of the section where it is used; it is not needed, can be removed entirely.
4. Figure 4 is referenced in a different section than where it first occurs; it could be retained as Figure 1.
5. Figure 5 is mentioned all over the place; it can become Figure 2
6. Figure 6 mention not needed, same section only
7. Figure 7 mention not needed, same section only
8. Figure 8 mention not needed, same section only
9. Figure 9 is used in multiple places; it can become Figure 3
10. Figure 10 is used in multiple places; it can become Figure 4
11. Figure 11 mention not needed, same section only

So, with the exception of four of them, the images are used in the same section where they are referenced, and there is no need to refer back to them from elsewhere, meaning they don't need to be labeled at all. Those mentions and labels should be removed, with the remaining four renumbered. I'll do this work if you say so, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:53, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Please do SG if you can. It will be a great help. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Will do; sorry to be stepping on your toes, but I have never before worked on FAR with timing this tight to TFA. I'll get this part done, but will edit in sections, bits and pieces, to avoid edit conflicts. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Nope, one of them was mislabeled, so it turns out Figure 1 is not needed either. So now:

• 2 (the old 5) is going to Map 1
• 3 (the old 9) is going to Figure 1
• 4 (the old 10) is going to Map 2

See why this is a bad idea-- OK if used only occassionally for the most urgent ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Done, reduced to three. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

That is excellent! Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:35, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Culture additions

This text is awkward:

• The author of a 2004 study recalled that at a 1991 Kathmandu "Rock and Roll Music Festival", an accomplished band, the "Hell Riders," from Darjeeling had star billing.[174] The crowd became restless when the group played music that appealed to an older audience (The Doors, The Rolling Stones, and Steppenwolf), but sang along when they switched to contemporary popular groups like AC/DC and Bon Jovi.[174]

Why are we devoting so much space to a music reaction in an entirely different country (Nepal)? I can't even convince myself that the group (from 2004) should be named in this article at all. Fowler&fowler I suggest deleting the whole bit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:06, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I also pushed the Western music further down in the section, putting local festivals back up top. I understand the comment above that those traditions may be dying out, but that's akin to something like ... most people in the US no longer go to church, but Christmas and Easter are nonetheless still traditions. We should see local culture before imported. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:08, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I had meant to put an under-construction banner but forgot. The rock concert bit was meant to be summarized to make the point that a common music culture had sprouted among the youth in the eastern Himalayas from Kathmandu to Bhutan, and the bands from Darjeeling were often the featured ones, the most popular, and the talented. In other words, this was not like the town had a few karaoke bars; it was a serious music scene.

Unfortunately, that author, published by reputable academic publishers, always refers to Darjeeling in this oblique manner. I will distil it tomorrow morning. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:27, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I will take a look at your list of unfinished business. But except for whittling down Economy#Tea, I think I've done the big things. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:29, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything left on my list. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:30, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

OK, sounds good, get some sleep; we missed Nikkimaria's run through FAR today anyway. I wanted to at least have it in good enough shape lest any other reviewers look in, so did some tweaking anyway. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:30, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Good night! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:36, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Following comments are not really based on references, rather random observation and experiences: while the mention of a particular rock bank seems unneeded, as SandyGeorgia mentioned, the usual perception of Darjeeling is indeed as a place of pop and rock musics (in addition to traditional Nepali music), especially noteworthy given its small size. Prashant Tamang, the winner of Indian Idol season 3, actually was influential in the political landscape of the region, because his Indian Idol campaign was politicized by one particular political faction--Dwaipayan (talk)

I see. Apparently, he too is now based in Kathmandu. Lending weight to the earlier point. He recently did a take on the old Bob Seger song. Different music obviously. Not sure what language it is, maybe Nepali. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:32, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

• As of this version, the lead has a sentence "The culture is easygoing allowing young men and young women to mix without censure". I am not sure if the theme has been explained in the body (I did not see in Culture or Demographics section on a quick look). From personal experience, this is true (compared to most of non-metropolitan/small-town India). --Dwaipayan (talk) 00:39, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

  Correct. I noted on the TFA talk page that I added it and was going to add it into the culture section later. I had a source for it. But a little while ago, when I sat down to examine the source, the point became more complicated. I looked at some other sources. In all that statement about Darjeeling was made in certain contexts or assumed certain causes. In other words, it is not a kind of blanket statement that the statement in the lead implied. So I've decided to take that sentence out and also the one about music. Apologies for the confuson. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Deuchar

Fowler&fowler Deuchar is a masters thesis; see WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Generally not acceptable for FAs; can it be "shown to have had significant scholarly influence"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:13, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes. It was part of the fieldwork for a paper YOUNG MEN, EDUCATION AND ETHNICITY IN CONTEMPORARY

DARJEELING Timothy J. Scrase, Ruchira Ganguly-Scrase and Andrew Deuchar,

South Asia Research. 2016. That journal article has the broader implication. It doesn't go into the details of the numbers. There are very few numbers on the municipality to be found anywhere, that is why I used them. I'll look for the larger influence bit next. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:40, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Good enough, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:43, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Minor comments

Please pardon me for the following grammar/language related comments. I am not good at grammar, and mostly use use Indian English, which has different usage of words. As of this version:

• "European planters and backers acquired large stretches of the surrounding hillside and converted them to plantations, called tea gardens." Here, what does "backers" mean? Sponsors/investors?

• Yes sponsor/investor is meant. Will change to "sponsor"

• Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "The labourers' disparate cultural and ethnic backgrounds and the tea gardens' commonly remote locations ensured the absence of worker mobilization." Here, does "mobilization" mean unionization/ something similar?

• Yes. Not necessarily unionization, at least not in the mid-19th century, e.g. but their interaction with workers in other plantations that might lead to organizing or unrest.
• Happy to change it to: "... tea gardens commonly remote location ensured the absence of interaction with workers in other plantations, and further worker activity or unrest." Tell me if that sounds better.

• No, the alternative option sounds weird. I think "mobilization" is precise, and better.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Kept Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Thereafter, as of old, Tonga horse-carriages were required to cover the last stretch on the Hill Cart Road." Here, the usage "as of old" is ok?

• You are correct. What was meant was "of an earlier time," (e.g. "In the days of old when the knights were bold.") to indicate that Tonga horse carriages had been used for centuries before. They went from the industrial age wonder (train) to pre-medieval wonder (horse carriage). I can change it to: "Thereafter, as of an earlier time, Tonga ..." or I can delete that interjection, "Thereafter Tonga horse ...) Please tell me which you prefer.

• I personally would prefer no interjection (eg "Thereafter Tonga horse..."). However, please keep in mind my English proficiency is limited. Perhaps "as of old" is a very nice/poetic use, which would increase the delight of reading. Do whatever you feel better.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Removed. Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Although the system of higher and lower ranks that the Gorkha population had lived in was set up by the British, the problems that had hindered their economic development before 1947 were added to after 1947." Not exactly sure what to say, but seems like this sentence needs some modification. Again, not exactly sure, and cannot offer any suggestion.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• What is the system of higher and lower rank among Gorkha that the British had created? Has this rank system been alluded to earlier in the article (I may have missed).--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Dwaipayan. Thanks for the insightful comments. I've responded to all but the last. I will reply to last in a couple of hours. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:38, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, that was poorly constructed. I've rephrased the sentence and in the context of its preceding and following sentence it reads: These actions created social and economic tensions with the Indian Gorkha population and further marginalised them. Their lack of economic development, caused by a hierarchal economic system set up by the British, continued in some respects in the immediate decades after 1947. The Indian nationalism that emerged seemed to highlight the unclear position of the Indian Nepalis in the newly independent nation. Whereas the division of India into states comprising the regions of its different spoken languages had allowed a relatively large proportion of the educated speakers of these languages to find employment in government-owned enterprises, the federal and state governments in this instance refused to accept the requests of the Gorkhas for their own Nepali speaking state in the northern regions of Bengal. Eventually, the demands for autonomy were downsized to calls for the recognition of the Nepali language for official state business in Nepali-speaking regions of Bengal." Let me know what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Whereas the division of India into states comprising the regions of its different spoken languages had allowed a relatively large proportion of the educated speakers of these languages to find employment in government-owned enterprises, the federal and state governments in this instance refused to accept the requests of the Gorkhas for their own Nepali speaking state in the northern regions of Bengal." This is a long sentence, with lots of information. Readers not acquainted with the topic may have trouble understanding in one reading, especially the language-based states part. Can it be broken to more than one simpler sentences? (again, this is totally personal opinion, and I do not ehave any expertise on copyediting).--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Split. See here. Done Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)