Wikipedia talk:Requested moves/Archive 36

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Archive 36

Before I request

I first brought this to the Teahouse and then once again here: Article Page; but I am not really sure how to go about requesting 2 page moves in one request. I would like to move the article Saddle tramp as the main article under that title at WP and move the (disambiguation) page to its own disambiguation title - which will be linked from the header link on the Saddle tramp article. But it is not very clear how to do that on the Requested moves page. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 13:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Maineartists: Check out Wikipedia:Requested moves § Requesting multiple page moves, in particular the template example shown there. – Hilst [talk] 13:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding how to request

I'm not sure where to find the templates for requesting a page move I.e opening the discussion. It will be more logical to have this information prominently at the top of the page. As it stand, the first /lead is filled with the closing instructions and a page mover guide, etc, but doesn't seem to have an immediate clear guidance on how to request a move or a link to do so. Has anyone considered this? Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

What could potentially be split and moved out is the list of technical requests to just below the instructions for the controversial moves. Nothing else should be changed since this is an information page on all moves. The lead accurately summarises what moves are there and what to do. Technical move instructions should still be at the top as we do get plenty of the technical requests, more than the number of controversial discussions. – robertsky (talk) 08:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The WP:PCM section has all of that information, and that section is listed in the Table of Contents. I can't think of any other process on Wikipedia where we just plonk a bunch of templates at the top and say "read below for how to use these"; we have those templates in line with the prose and examples. Primefac (talk) 19:48, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Some cases should be moved via Rfc instead

Over the years I have come across many cases that would be much better moved via an Rfc rather than RM. This is because in the cases, there also needs to be a scope change. Consider the move requests at 2024 Nuseirat rescue operation and Nuseirat refugee camp massacre. At the move request many users express concerns about scope and potential merger. At the merger discussion, users express concern about the name. Its a circular discussion. An Rfc would clearly lay out the options at the table: "Move to X, with merger", "Move to X, without merger" etc. In such cases, can a user start a RfC instead of a RM? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's any rule that says contentious moves can only occur following an RM, so if you think there are other important things to discuss along with a page move (or as a result of a mage move, or vice versa) then by all means use that route. Primefac (talk) 19:09, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Please also keep in mind that an RfC like the one you suggest should only be created when there is no open move request. An RfC should not be used to supersede an existing move discussion, and is likely to be closed in such a case. Dekimasuよ! 02:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Why are we recommending that edit histories should use nonsense names?

See talk:Magique (disambiguation), where it is said that a redirect containing edit history should be moved to a nonsensical title "Magique (disambiguation)" when the content is not a disambiguation page, but a former character article. This kind of movement would make edit histories of many topics end up at nonsense names, whenever a primary topic changes a primary redirect with history swapped with an article. That unrelated disambiguated title would now contain the former article come redirect's edit history, for a merged article. The edit summary will never keep up with multiple moves, so the attribution templates on the talk pages should be used to track the location of edit histories, with sensible names; and through the move logs.

-- 65.92.247.96 (talk) 22:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Are new rules needed for high-profile or previously contested proposals?

I have initiated a discussion at the Village Pump on the question, Are new rules needed for high-profile or previously contested proposals? BD2412 T 00:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@BD2412 nice. I have something similar in mind with regards to potential high-viz moves. – robertsky (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Robertsky: If you have a proposal, I'd like to see it in the Village Pump discussion. Cheers! BD2412 T 01:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 22 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Snowing. (closed by non-admin page mover) LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

---

Wikipedia:Requested moves → Wikipedia:Requested title changes – title changes seems like a better name because we are requesting to change the name or title of the page. for example in this requested move the request is to change the TITLE to Wikipedia:Requested title changes so that is why title changes is a more appropriate name for this page. 173.72.3.91 (talk) 19:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Wikipedia's terminology has been "move" for 23 years, and there's no reason to change it. O.N.R. ^(talk) 20:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The reasoning for this RM is entirely based on a personal opinion. There are no issues with the current, unless there's a conflicting page because of the title, then I would consider supporting such a move. Jerium (talk) 20:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Solution in search of a problem, and one that would take a lot of work to clean up after. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

move closure reconsideration request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

reconsider the move request above to change page title to Wikipedia:Requested title changes as it was closed too fast in less than a day as most move requests take more than a week for consensus. the instructions on top of the closed move say Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page but the talk page of the closer is extended confirmed protected so i am starting that discussion here on this talk page. 173.72.3.91 (talk) 14:44, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

A move review is unlikely to be successful here, as this close is a textbook definition of one that would fall under the Wikipedia:Snowball clause. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Ahecht, for what it's worth, this IP has been repeatedly disruptive over the past month or so. They've reverted my snow close on Talk:Project 2025 twice over the same general concerns (closed too early), and they've been edit warring on Wikipedia:Sandbox of all places, leading Daniel Quinlan to block them. All that to say they've been on my nerves for a while now. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

In short, the IP is just a troll. A anyone would be justified in blocking them for a lot longer than 72 hours. They're clearly WP:NOTHERE and deserve zero consideration. oknazevad (talk) 20:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Ip title changes is a better title than move 2600:381:C285:663C:10C3:8FE:8B17:2245 (talk) 01:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I find everyone above too dismissive. While it's extremely unlikely for us to change what we call it now (and it'd take far more than one RM), "move" is indeed confusing terminology, and nobody unfamiliar with MediaWiki would understand what you mean if you used it without qualifying it. It requires you to conceptualize page names as spaces to occupy, even though there are effectively infinite combinations of eligible Unicode characters, while nobody would have trouble understanding if it was called "rename". But WP:Rename already redirects to Wikipedia:Changing username, which points in a hatnote to Wikipedia:Moving a page, and that seems adequate to address the confusion newcomers will inevitably have. Nardog (talk) 21:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

yeah i agree move is confusing terminology title change makes much more sense. so that is why i request to reconsider the closure of this request to change article title to Wikipedia:Requested title changes. 173.72.3.91 (talk) 02:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Please read the room and accept that nobody else agrees with you. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 02:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Support 2600:381:C285:663C:10C3:8FE:8B17:2245 (talk) 00:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The ch 2600:381:C285:663C:10C3:8FE:8B17:2245 (talk) 00:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:OBVIOUSSOCK. Please knock it off. 162 etc. (talk) 02:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

[[Wikipedia:Requested name changes]] is also fine 173.72.3.91 (talk) 03:25, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2024

remove the Russia-Ukraine War and 2020 Oregon State Senate election move requests from malformed requests as they are also in the july 30 section 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

never mind looks like RMCD bot already corrected it 173.72.3.91 (talk) 18:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Please note that in any case the bots overwrite any independent changes made to the list, so this kind of request can't be dealt with here. Dekimasuよ! 00:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Moves during discussion?

If I don't want to wait for a discussion to reach any conclusion, can I just go ahead and do the page moves and renames anyway? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:08, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

No. That would defeat the purpose of having such a discussion in the first place. – Hilst (talk | contribs) 21:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

But what if I'm really sure that they need to be moved, and the people arguing are just wrong? Andy Dingley (talk) 22:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Andy Dingley, is this about Talk:M40 gun motor carriage? Typically, if a user has recently done an undiscussed move from A to B, and another user would like to call it into question, there are two ways for him to do so. 1. He can unilaterally revert the move, and then anyone can start a RM for A → B. 2. He can leave it at B for the moment and start a RM for B → A. Either way, the eventual result will be whatever the consensus is, or A if there is no consensus. By leaving it at B but framing the RM as A →B, you didn't quite follow either pattern, so it's creating some confusion. You can fix it in either way. Adumbrativus (talk) 23:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The first route above is usually better: if a user has recently done an undiscussed move from A to B, and another user would like to call it into question, this should be done by reverting the move instead of starting an RM, since this is sufficient evidence that the undiscussed move was not uncontroversial (WP:RMUM, and also in accord with WP:BRD). The only significant variation in perspective that exists on this is what should be considered "recent". Dekimasuよ! 00:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with the above; moving a page while there is an explicit discussion over moving the page is poor form, unless something is egregiously wrong (but then there wouldn't be an RM, would there). Primefac (talk) 00:03, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking of this in particular, done today. I raised these initially a week ago, but was ignored because there was no RM open on them, therefore [sic] there was no opposition to them. Raising them at Talk:All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment where there's an ongoing discussion on the same basis, this was rejected as 'disruptive' and taken to ANI. Now they're refusing to engage at RM because they don't like the format of the proposition. Clearly the original mover just does not want to discuss any justification for their moves.

But the problem is that a RM to move them back to the correct version is facing a fait accompli, a pejorative situation to have to work from. Conversely moving them all back first, then raising the proper RM that should have been done initially, is a lot of work to do (probably hundreds of links involved, and some of them can't be moved without admin action anyway), all to then just get blocked for edit-warring before the RM is even filed! In the meantime, the firehose of related moves continues apace, even ridiculous ones like M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System. If a page is moved and it isn't exactly the same page as one of the backlog that are already being complained of, then there's no opposition to that page move, is there? QED. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth – in previous similar situations (page BOLDly moved, ongoing RM to return to the original title), what I've seen done is that a participant will leave a comment in the discussion to note the relevant history. The closer can then take this history into account when evaluating the discussion, which should reduce the fait accompli concerns; for instance, I've definitely seen cases where similar RMs had a result of "no consensus, therefore the page is being returned to its original stable title". ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 04:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. But here there's no "ongoing RM to return to the original title". An RM to return to the original title(s) is one of the options I suggested to Andy. Dicklyon (talk) 05:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Andy, a notification of this would have been nice. A couple of comments: Yes, you could have just moved the pages back yourself, or asked at WP:RMTR, as I advised you several times, before and after you started the malformed RM; and again. I have done my best to engage in discussion with you, but you ignore me there and at the previous discussion you opened at Talk:M40 gun motor carriage#Undiscussed page move. It would not be edit warring for you to move a few articles back to capitalized titles, and say you oppose more similar ones, after which I'd start a proper RM discussion. It's WP:BRD. But if all you do is throw incivil insults (see bottom of WP:ANI#User:Andy Dingley), you're not really making a case. Dicklyon (talk) 02:16, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

And if "the original mover just does not want to discuss any justification for their moves", why did I make all these edits?

• Replies to you on my talk page before you ignored me there: [1], [2], [3].
• Also my replies to Swatjester in that same section. He took my advice, reverted a few moves, and we started an RM discussion. That's how it works. He also pointed out to me that the titles we're discussing there are unlike the letter/number–class designator titles that you're inquiring about, which is why your long tangent about those at that RM was disruptive, as editors kept telling you.
• This subsection in your nastigram section on my talk page, that I even pinged you to: User talk:Dicklyon#On my moves
• This whole section, which I could reference from, or copy into, a proper RM discussion if one gets started: Talk:M40 gun motor carriage#Origins and early adoption of "gun motor carriage".
• This comment in the talk page section you started. And this one to follow up another user's comments there.
• These comments in your malformed RM: [4], [5], [6], [7].

And there's no response from you to any of those, and no response other than this at my User talk page, your last comment there, last July 25. And you've made no response in the discussion you started on the article talk page on July 24, though a couple of us were trying to discuss. Who is it that's refusing to discuss? Dicklyon (talk) 02:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Procedural close request

Andy's malformed RM at Talk:M40_gun_motor_carriage#Requested_move_2_August_2024 needs to be closed and re-done correctly, either as capitalizing moves from the current titles, or revert those that I lowercased and I'll do an RM from the old titles to lowercase. Would some move-savvy admin please step in and put us out of our misery there please? Dicklyon (talk) 00:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Primefac: can you help fix this, one way or another? Thanks. Dicklyon (talk) 01:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It's done. Dicklyon (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Most frequently moved pages

We have WP:Most frequently edited pages; does anybody know what are the WP:Most frequently moved pages or have any ideas for how to find out? Levivich (talk) 18:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Quarry can answer this - I don’t have time now, but I’ll write a query sometime in the next few days unless someone beats me to it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich: See Quarry:query/85482. It seems the most frequently moved page is Flexiant, with 58 moves, followed closely by War in Iraq (2013–2017), with 51 moves.

Note this is limited to non-redirects in mainspace - I can try to expand the query if you want a broader result, although it may time out. BilledMammal (talk) 09:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Levivich (talk) 12:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

<- Doing something like this might be faster. The logging table is horrible. This takes 126s from my laptop through an SSH tunnel.

with moves as (
select log_page from logging_logindex where log_type = 'move' and log_page is not null
)
select * from (
select page_title, page_namespace, page_is_redirect, count(*) as move_count
from page
join moves on moves.log_page = page_id
group by page_title, page_namespace, page_is_redirect
) as mp
where mp.move_count > 10
order by mp.move_count desc
limit 20

	page_title	page_namespace	page_is_redirect	move_count
0	Ahecht/sandbox5	2	0	92
1	Flexiant	1	0	76
2	Ahecht/sandbox5	3	0	68
3	Ahecht/sandbox6	3	1	68
4	Flexiant	0	0	58
5	War_in_Iraq_(2013–2017)	0	0	51
6	Params/testcases/sandbox	828	0	51
7	Ahecht/sandbox3	2	1	49
8	War_in_Iraq_(2013–2017)	1	0	49
9	Ahecht/sandbox6/Archive_1	3	0	42
10	I_Would_Do_it_All_Again	0	1	40
11	Ahecht/sandbox6/Archive_2	3	0	38
12	Ahecht/sandbox4	2	0	37
13	Andy_M._Wang/mobile4	2	0	36
14	2016_Taiwanese_general_election	0	0	34
15	MusikBot/sandbox	2	0	34
16	Qwerfjkl/sandbox/60	2	1	33
17	Silikonz/sponge	2	0	33
18	Andy_M._Wang/mobile4	3	0	32
19	Ahecht/sandbox6	2	1	31

Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks! Now we know Ahecht is the undisputed champion of the Sandbox Shuffle Levivich (talk) 15:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich That's what happens when you maintain a page swap script that needs testing. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 17:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I tried to add a "where page_namespace is 0" to Sean's query and it didn't work. My SQL knowledge suqs. Help? Levivich (talk) 15:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

It should go between the join and group by lines. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Linked section headings?

Maybe a silly question but why do we have linked section headings on this page? Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_controversial_and_potentially_controversial_moves, Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_technical_moves, etc.? MOS:SECTIONHEAD is pretty explicit that for technical reasons section headings should Not contain links, especially where only part of a heading is linked and that for stylistic reasons they should Not be wrapped in markup, which may break their display and cause other accessibility issues. Why aren't the links in those headers done on a subsequent line with the {{see also}} template or something similar instead? ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 23:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

The links are for each section that is actually a transclusion of a subpage. They should be left there as it's helpful for getting to the subpage. I agree with the Manual of Style that this shouldn't be done in articles, but it's quite common for subpages in project space, including at XfD venues. SilverLocust 💬 00:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Not disagreeing with the current practice, but maybe as a middle ground we could use something like {{Transcluded section}} to make it more apparent that it's a transcluded section? Primefac (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Has anyone actually run into technical issues from links in the section headings at, e.g., AfD, RfD, TfD, DRV, RM, MRV, RFPP, RFAR, or messages on user talk page (such as for AfC/Draftify notifications)? (Other than several Thursdays ago when a MediaWiki update broke headings with links. See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 213#Section headings with links.) SilverLocust 💬 18:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's a "technical restriction" in the sense that it will break things, but more of a "backend/formatting" statement to differentiate it from stylistic header restrictions. Primefac (talk) 21:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Should the RM article-space messagebox be replaced with a top icon?

{{Requested move notice}} currently uses the Mbox metatemplate. Some editors have expressed a desire to replace this messagebox with a top icon (using the Top icon metatemplate).

Background: Before August 2016 notices were not routinely placed in mainspace. By popular demand, after this discussion, my bot started posting notices. While this development was widely praised, it did not have universal support. One editor (who's now inactive) said "I disapprove or placing move messages in article space. People who go to a page to read information are not going there to read information about Wikipedia internal procedures, Information about editorial concerns should be placed on the talk page (that is what talk pages are for) this includes proposals to move a page."

In April 2020, there was a discussion about a proposal to revise the template to make this notice less disruptive. One editor in that discussion expressed the opinion that "every single one of those enormous cleanup templates should also be converted into this". However, there was no discussion about changing the metatemplate to address all cleanup templates. Rather, the discussion designed a new hybrid template which was a halfway-cross of message boxes and top icons. That discussion stalled after running into technical issues with an interface-protected edit request.

Fast forward to this month, when the template developed for that 2020 proposal was put up for discussion, and userfied. That led to a new template-protected edit request, which I closed as "not done" due to needing a discussion to achieve a broader consensus. So here I am, essentially re-opening or relisting that April 2020 conversation. The rationale for change was best expressed in that TfD:

1. Unlike banner issues such as NPOV or inadequate sourcing, page titling is an editorial concern irrelevant to most readers. It contributes to banner blindness, and it immediately distracts the reader from trying to find the information they came to the page for.
2. It brings a lot of noise to move discussions on highly trafficked pages. Our page titling criteria (e.g. COMMONNAME) and consensus based decision making (i.e. NOTAVOTE) are not well understood by the general public. Having closed a lot of requested moves including the 2020 Kyiv rename, closing becomes harder when you have a high volume of "ILIKEIT" comments and exceptionally so when it is on an active, high-profile, or geopolitical topic. This slows down the RM process and leads to the banner being up even longer which amplifies the first problem.
3. The current RM banner and process are an effective vector for political campaigns to influence public opinion without actually needing to move the page. As a case study, take the inciting incident for this template which concerned the title of Joe Biden sexual assault allegation which had 4 RMs in 1 month. Biden supporters wanted to focus on the allegation by Tara Reade and pushed for leaving Biden's name out of the title and using the singular rather than the plural; Biden opponents wanted to highlight Biden and other less substantiated allegations by including his name and using the plural. Ultimately I think we got the call right, but the problem wasn't making the right call: for over a week while this RM was active we advertised in Wikipedia's voice, without citation, that a major candidate for public office may have engaged in multiple sexual assaults. I think that's a bad outcome, but it's remarkably easy to pull off: just start a "good-faith" move discussion and you get free advertising for your unverified POV on any page you like no matter how high traffic for 7 days (or longer if it attracts enough noise to make finding a closer difficult).

I think the best path forward to solve these concerns is to avoid the trouble of attempting to design a new hybrid meta-template, and just go with an off-the-shelf top icon.

Look at the Rock-climbing equipment article to see how this will work. Click on the RM icon on the upper right of the page (next to the featured list icon) to go to the discussion.

Question. Should the current article-space messagebox be replaced with a top icon?

• OK with me. I'll implement this if the RM community prefers this solution. I'm also fine with the status quo, though sympathetic to the concerns expressed in the box above. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support the top icon looks nice. I agree that move discussions are editorial in nature and not relevant to most readers. This doesn't apply to other banners. Polyamorph (talk) 19:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
• Keep showing the full banner to logged-in users (via Help:-show classes) and anyone editing the page (via {{if preview}}). I am fine with having just that topicon show for logged-out people, who are much more likely to be here to read than to discuss editorial decisions. But I don't want to remove the banner message "Please do not move this article until the discussion is closed" and end up with more people moving articles during RMs. And I imagine most logged-in users (who most likely edit) would like to see the proposed title without clicking the discussion (and would like to still see RM notices when on mobile, which hides topicons). SilverLocust 💬 19:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is a good point, as logged in users are (most likely) also editors it makes sense to replace the banner with the top icon only for logged out users. Polyamorph (talk) 13:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

• Generally support this, readers are not helped by RM notices in the way they are by cleanup banners. Keeping it for logged in users per SilverLocust makes sense too if possible. CMD (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The topicon has typically only been used for article ratings, which most editors (including myself) generally ignore. There's no way in heck I'd ever notice a move request notification if it were only placed there, and I doubt most other editors would either. SilverLocust's proposal as a second-best approach, but my guess is that it would result in a flood of extra move requests by IPs being posted to WP:RM/TR. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 14:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

RMs and AFDs

Hello, Page Movers,

Please do not move articles that are in the midst of an AFD discussion. Specifically, I'm talking about the Elliot Rodger effect request on August 19th. This was tagged for an AFD under a different page title, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Effects of the 2014 Isla Vista killings, the article was moved to a different page title after the AFD was started (first problem) and then came a request here to move it to yet another page title (second problem). Moving an article during an AFD really complicates the discussion closure as our editing tool, XFDcloser, can't make sense when it is asked to handle an article that is at a different page title than the one identified in the AFD. So, when you are reviewing a RM request, please postpone doing it if you see that it is part of an AFD discussion. If the article is Kept, feel free to carry out a page move. If it is deleted, then the question is moot. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Liz: Good reminder. However it seems that this article was also subjected a RM before being moved without waiting for the discussion to be closed... and then the AfD was opened at the new title before it was moved back to the original title, which to the AfD is a mismatch of titles now. For RMs, it is also encouraged not to move the article till the RM discussion closes as this may confuse the participants and the closer as the rationale of the RM nom may not be applicable for the new title. Here, it seems unfortunate that the same type of instructions on both sides, AfD and RM have result in this conflict. This should be a rare occurrence still. – robertsky (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@Liz: I’ve got an update to Move+ planned that will correct the AFD listing if a page is moved; I think that would address your concerns, or do they go beyond technical issues? BilledMammal (talk) 01:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm... like RMs, the nominating statement for AfDs may make sense only when the article is at that title. Maybe automatically add a note on the AfD discussion that the content had been moved due to the RM discussion as well? – robertsky (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

This will mostly match what Robertsky said above, but it took me a few tries to understand what happened here. To be clear, this wasn't a case in which a normal move request concluded and action was taken during an open AfD, and the timeline is somewhat different from what Liz noted: the RM was created before the deletion nomination. In this case, 1) a now-blocked sock created a page; 2) the sock moved the page several times; 3) an RM was opened to stabilize the title; 4) the sock moved the page again out of process, necessitating reversion; 5) the page was nominated for deletion before the page was moved back; 6) the page was moved back. The move request (which includes a "from" field) preceded the initiation of the AfD, so the listing was showing as broken at WP:RM. Mandating that these sorts of things not be fixed when it is possible to do so could also lead to disruption, such as allowing a blatantly POV or offensive title to remain that way, out of process, for an additional week by performing the move directly before nominating something for AfD. While there may not be a centralized way to explain this effectively to editors nominating articles for deletion, AfD nominators should really be checking to see that the article is at the right title before nomination as well. If there are disruptive page moves taking place then the article title may not reflect the consensus scope, leading editors to believe the article should be nominated for deletion, etc. As Robertsky says, this should be a rare occurrence. Without the AfD nomination this would have ended up as G5. Dekimasuよ! 04:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Arrest of Pavel Durov has joined the parade of articles with simultaneous "delete" and "move" discussions. Which will be the first to close? Mainstream media in the US seems to be relegating coverage of this to "page 2", which I suspect could not be happening if an American billionaire were arrested and charged with crime(s). – wbm1058 (talk) 17:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

This is more common occurrence where the AfD and RM are still at the same title, unlike the one above where the RM and AfD are of different titles. Typically, the closure of RM is delayed by relisting until the closure of the AfD. Sometimes both close at the same time, usually when both RM and AfD arrives as at the same consensus that the article would be better at the proposed title. – robertsky (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Consensus for color change

Yesterday, I made the following change to the {{RM top}} template. This changed the color of the template from a lighter green to a more saturated green color (since that was the closest dark-mode compatible color available), while also making the template compatible/readable with dark mode (previously, the template would stick out as a blindingly green sore thumb on pages when dark mode was enabled). However, @SilverLocust reverted said change due to the aforementioned color change.

TLDR, would the changes proposed in this edit be acceptable to peeps working in RM? Sohom (talk) 11:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Here is an example of the change.

Current appearance:

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 05:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Kaveen Bandara → Kavin Bandara – The correct name is Kavin Bandara and not Kaveen Bandara, which may mislead readers. The current name is incorrect and does not reflect the individual's actual name, potentially causing confusion and misinformation. Correcting the name to Kavin Bandara ensures accuracy and reliability of information for all readers ... GanganaB (talk) 04:32, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Four of the five cited references have "Kavin", only one ([8]) has "Kaveen". Tevildo (talk) 10:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The person's name is spelled incorrectly in the article. Waqar💬 19:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sohom Datta's proposed appearance:

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 05:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Kaveen Bandara → Kavin Bandara – The correct name is Kavin Bandara and not Kaveen Bandara, which may mislead readers. The current name is incorrect and does not reflect the individual's actual name, potentially causing confusion and misinformation. Correcting the name to Kavin Bandara ensures accuracy and reliability of information for all readers ... GanganaB (talk) 04:32, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Four of the five cited references have "Kavin", only one ([9]) has "Kaveen". Tevildo (talk) 10:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The person's name is spelled incorrectly in the article. Waqar💬 19:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Note that this looks more like a CfD close rather than the traditional RM close appearance.)

Alternatively, with WP:TemplateStyles (Template:RM top/styles.css), it should be possible to change the color in dark mode using @media screen while preserving the current color in light mode. See mw:Recommendations for night mode compatibility on Wikimedia wikis#Target night mode using standard media query as well as HTML classes. This would be a new transclusion rather than the current subst-ed styles, but that shouldn't be an issue. SilverLocust 💬 ~ 12:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit iffy about substing a TemplateStyles declaration on a large number of page, but yes, if using the original colouring scheme is preferred, using TemplateStyles would be the way to go. (From a technical POV, this would be significantly easier) Sohom (talk) 13:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

If there's nothing further here for a couple days, I am fine with restoring the color change. SilverLocust 💬 22:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

On the vector legacy (2010) skin, the old color is unchanged. To view the change, click here to reload this page in vector 2022. (cc: Primefac). SilverLocust 💬 21:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Note that Monobook (which I use) also does not show any change to the color. Is this only a change to its appearance in Vector 2022? Bensci54 (talk) 16:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The color change is on Vector 2022 and Minerva (the mobile skin). On the other three skins (Vector, Timeless, Monobook), the CSS variable --background-color-success-subtle isn't defined, so the fallback color is used. (And Sohom's edit kept the old color as the fallback color.)

•  #eeffee  (a light green) was on all skins before this
•  #d5fdf4  (a light blue-green) is now used on Vector 2022 and Minerva
•  #00261e  (a dark green) is now used on Vector 2022 and Minerva in dark mode

SilverLocust 💬 17:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Restored per lack of objection. SilverLocust 💬 02:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

How to fix malformed request?

I messed up placing the template at Talk:Autobiographical comics. I tried to fix it but have doubts it will work. What do I do? (Sorry about the inconvenience.) RJFJR (talk) 22:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@RJFJR: The template is currently correct, but you haven't stated a reason for the move. You should replace "Please place your rationale for the proposed move here" with a rationale, which can be brief. SilverLocust 💬 23:31, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@SilverLocust: Thank you. I've filled in a reason. RJFJR (talk) 23:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Just generally speaking, if you screw up a subst, just replace what got messed up with a new subst. Primefac (talk) 17:07, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Closure

This discussion was opened 3 weeks ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Al-Tabaeen_school_attack#Requested_move_10_August_2024

It needs closure. Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Closure requests are made at Wikipedia:Closure requests rather than here. This one has been listed. SilverLocust 💬 20:39, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Should…

…contested moves with a participants after the seven-days-period be treated as RMNOMIN? Best, Reading Beans 04:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I assume you mean "with no participants".

Depends what was said in contesting the request.

• If it's just something like "I'm not sure about this given ..." or "There has previously been disagreement about ...", then I wouldn't consider that an objection to the move.
• If the contesting comment indicates disagreement with the move, then it shouldn't be considered unopposed. You could reference the contesting comment in a relisting comment or copy it into the RM.
• In either event, the contesting comment should be taken into account in evaluating (per WP:RMNOMIN) whether the move is consistent with policies, guidelines, and conventions.

SilverLocust 💬 05:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes! “No participants”. Thank you for thoughtful response. Best, Reading Beans 08:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Nominate for deletion & then move, or just move?

I nominated Park Sung-hoon for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Park Sung-hoon (2nd nomination)) as it is now just a disambiguation page for 1 article; I assumed that the page should be deleted and then Park Sung-hoon (actor) should be moved into its place. But now I'm thinking I should've just skipped the deletion step and just nominated Park Sung-hoon (actor) for a move to Park Sung-hoon and just let the disambiguation page WP:USURPTITLE'd

Do I withdraw the deletion nom (can I?)? Or just let it run its course and then move Park Sung-hoon (actor) when the page is deleted? RachelTensions (talk) 17:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@RachelTensions: Yes, you can withdraw the AfD because nobody has commented yet. I do recommend just requesting a move of Park Sung-hoon (actor) to Park Sung-hoon (while mentioning that the proposed title is a disambiguation page that will be unneeded per WP:ONEOTHER). If moved, the disambiguation page will be dealt with as cleanup. SilverLocust 💬 17:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Either is fine, but I do agree it looks like a withdrawal and further {{db-move}} request will be easier. Primefac (talk) 11:54, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Was just notified to this discussion existence after I had !vote on the AfD earlier today. Was this closure cum withdrawal allowed when I had already !vote on it? I believe is an procedure infringement, either we uninvolved snow it or let it run the full course. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

sigh. Page deleted per {{db-move}}, because getting too hung up on pedantry is silly. Primefac (talk) 13:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Current Discussions bot needs to do better than copy, wrap, paste

It seems that Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions is maintained by a bot that copies everything inside the user's original subst'd {{Requested move}} template, and wraps it all into one paragraph that begins with an asterisk (*), which encodes for a bulleted list entry. Moreover, it appears that upon editing the lead paragraphs of a talk page section created with this template, the bot automatically updates Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions. More intelligence is needed. Talk:Sloboda#Requested move 24 August 2024 has a discussion that includes {{hidden}}. Putting this template in a paragraph beginning with asterisk causes four lint errors: two missing end tags for <div> and two stripped tags for </div>. I edited that talk page and inserted a blank line above {{hidden}}, to see what the bot would do. Well, the bot inserted two spaces before {{hidden}}, but the template is still in a paragraph beginning with asterisk, so the four lint errors are still there. Similarly, Template talk:WP LGBTQIA has a discussion that includes {{Not a ballot}}. Putting this template in a paragraph beginning with asterisk causes a multiline table in list lint error. And that's what the bot did. The bot needs more sophistication to avoid creating lint errors in Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions.

Also, near the top of Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions is the markup

'''This list is also available''' in a '''[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions (alt)|page-link-first format]]''' and in '''[[Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions (table)|table format]].''' nnn discussions have been relisted.''

which has a spurious close italics ('') at the end, which needs to be removed. —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Wikipedia:Requested moves/Current discussions no longer includes the discussion on Template talk:WP LGBTQIA, but you can find it in the version of 00:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC), just before that section was removed. —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

If the hidden note is causing issues, it should be moved from the request itself to the first comment. In general, the request shouldn't be a wall of text. Gonnym (talk) 08:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I concur with this. There are times when it is helpful to add a copy of the signature closer to the top of the request to prevent a wall of text from appearing here. Dekimasuよ! 09:20, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Heh, the point of using {{hidden}} was to not make it a wall of text :)

Please update the software and/or the instructions if people filing RMs should do something differently in the future, I don't recall ever seeing any warnings against the use of the hidden template there. --Joy (talk) 15:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

My original proposal was to modify the bot to avoid picking up templates that shouldn't be bulleted. That still might be worth doing, but it seems that we should also ask users to avoid using templates that shouldn't be bulleted. Template:Requested move/doc#Specified new name includes the bulleted item "Why ... = your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate". We could put, right below that, a two-asterisk indented bullet something like, "Please do not include templates that expand to tables, such as nav templates or {{Not a ballot}}, and also avoid collapse templates such as {{collapse}} and {{hidden}}." Comments? —Anomalocaris (talk) 22:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Yep, that sounds like an improvement over the current phrasing. And obviously saying something like "Please post any such extra information afterwards, as a comment." after that. --Joy (talk) 08:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done —Anomalocaris (talk) 06:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I enhanced the bot in October 2023 to support {{collapse top}} & {{collapse bottom}}. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:37, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

wbm1058: Could you add support for {{hidden}}? Is there a systematic way to support the whole family of collapse templates? —Anomalocaris (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

It took me a while to realize that though the {{hidden}} problem was only reported here yesterday, it was created a month ago. Was it really "hidden" for that long, before anybody noticed any problem? Of course, that means this discussion, which generally is only supposed to run a week, has been open for over a month, too. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, in the grand scheme of things it would actually be more helpful if more people read the Sloboda discussion and said "yeah the medieval settlement type is what we really want everyone to read first" or "yeah the English reader doesn't know this term, it's really ambiguous" and we get over it sooner rather than later :D --Joy (talk) 09:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2024

Please move Tzemile Giousouf article to previous title Cemile Giousouf 194.219.206.56 (talk) 01:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done. In the future, please make these requests on the "Project page". Click on "Edit" next to "Requests to revert undiscussed moves" where you will see instructions on how to request the move. Station1 (talk) 02:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

but the page is not open for ip 188.4.251.27 (talk) 17:36, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Do not click on Edit at the top of the page or the top of the section. They are semi-protected. Click only on the Edit link next to "Requests to revert undiscussed moves". Let me know if you still have problems if you do that. Station1 (talk) 18:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Why aren't my requests working?

I've been trying to do a WP:RM, but whenever I do, it doesn't work properly. Do you know why? GilaMonster536 (talk) 18:04, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

For starters, you have placed it in a comment section. I will move it for you. The Banner talk 18:39, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks GilaMonster536 (talk) 18:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

For some reason, it's still not in the correct format. GilaMonster536 (talk) 18:44, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

There was also an unclosed link in the request ([[) that was preventing the template from functioning. SilverLocust 💬 18:52, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Move the "Santería" page to the official name of the religion "Regla de Ocha"

Santeria can be considered a derogatory term and the religion, as it exists in the Cuba and throughout the diaspora, is known as "Regla de Ocha". I believe the page should be moved to "Regla de Ocha" with a redirect in place from Santería > Regla de Ocha. I'm happy to volunteer editing the page to reflect the proper name of the religion once that is done.

Also, there are several misnomers, incorrect statements and "beware of the boogeyman" tactics currently in use on the Santería page. All of this stems, first, from the name being incorrect for the page, so why not show some respect to the members of the religion, worldwide, by migrating the page correctly? Vxla (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This is a talk page for discussing the process described at Wikipedia:Requested moves. To propose a specific title change, please follow the instructions found at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Controversial and initiate discussion on the talk page of the article you would like to move. Dekimasuよ! 03:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)