Wikipedia talk:Teahouse

"Publish" vs. "save"

I'm curious to hear from other hosts about what you've been encountering with editors being confused by the button to save an edit when creating a new page being labelled "publish" rather than "save," as it used to be. It seems that this has caused a lot of confusion, e.g. here, here (both handled by @331dot), here, and here, among many others. We have the ability to change it at MediaWiki:Publishchanges if we decide to do so. Sdkb ^talk 02:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we can change it; as I understand it was Wikipedia's lawyers who wanted it changed, to emphasize that every edit is public. Apparently "save" does not carry that implication. I think we just have to live with it. 331dot (talk) 08:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Users think, understandably, that "Publish" means "put in mainspace". Some want to put their draft into mainspace and are puzzled when "Publish" doesn't do that. Others just want to save edits to their draft but can't find a "Save" button. It's strange that lawyers think WP's legal position is stronger when its users don't understand what they're doing. Maproom (talk) 14:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of:

Warning: Your edits will be publicly viewable. If you wish to keep your edits private you will have to do it off-site.

This would be enabled by default for non-autoconfirmed users and removed once they become autoconfirmed. Unfortunately, IP addresses would most likely have to be left out as there's no way to differentiate between veteran editors who wish to remain anonymous versus complete newbies. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Save & publish, instead of the current Publish changes.

There's already a disclaimer by such buttons (including the "Reply" button on talk pages) giving full details. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Speculating about what's legally necessary rather than seeking clarification is a surefire way for us to get bogged down in circles. @Slaporte (WMF), can you let us know if there's any legal reason the button needs to say "publish" rather than "save"? Sdkb ^talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The answer (I assume Slaporte isn't going answer at this point) is because "Save" led to a lot of newbies believing that the contents were being saved privately, and thus were a perfectly safe place to make a note about your password, or your home phone number, or to stash a copy of a copyrighted text that you meant to cite. We also had problems with students who thought that 'Save' meant 'My supervising teacher will not be able to see this yet'. The UI needs to give people the information that they need to protect their privacy. Since the meaning of 'Save' shifted in the public's mind from the 1990s idea of 'This puts a copy on a hard disk' to the 2010s idea of 'When I save my e-mail draft, it does not send it to anyone yet', new users didn't feel like what they expected from a 'Save' button is what they actually got from the big blue button.

It's probably worth noting that the group of experienced editors who never complain about this change are the ones who worked in Wikipedia:Oversight before this change was made.

If memory serves, the Hebrew Wikipedia got approval from WMF Legal to use "Save and publish". I don't know whether this solves any actual problems. I assume that the net result is to have newbies ask "Where's the plain 'Save' button? I only want to save it. I don't want to publish it yet." At the time, a significant part of their idea was that it would ease the transition by retaining and expanding the old wording, rather than replacing it completely. I do not think that such a change would be helpful to us. (Also, as a matter of pure personal aesthetics, I don't happen to like it myself.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

See this announcement for background (and further discussion further down the page). 57.140.16.57 (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I do regularly (though not frequently) encounter questions from new users who are confused by the publish button. I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to trot out the "it's a legal requirement that's been forced on us" explanation on each occasion. It is time-consuming to have to explain what the difference between 'publish' and 'Publish' means. But I haven't experienced the constant confusion amongst large numbers of new editors that I had actually expected. If I could change it back, I would, as it's the most logical title when saving edits in a draft. But I suspect most new users manage to understand it well enough, and that we are where we are, and are stuck with it. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

What about displaying different words to different user access levels? Autoconfirmed and above could stick with Publish; non-autoconfirmed could get Save publicly and a separate disclaimer above or below the edit summary textbox to the effect of Everything saved to Wikipedia is immediately publicly visible.

I suspect a knock-on effect of the Publish wording is people leaving the editing interface open too long (till they're ready to "Publish") and being unable to commit edits made due to the "no stashed content" Mediawiki error, which is something we get questions about several times monthly. So even though we don't hear specifically about the wording very often, I suspect adding clarity for newer editors may help in that regard.

Of course, I just realised people might get even more confused when the wording changes upon becoming autoconfirmed, so this idea is probably at least mostly dumb. At least I necroed a whole thread about it. Folly Mox (talk) 10:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

If we thought it was a significant source of confusion, we could add a little pop-up note for first edits that says "Everything on Wikipedia is public. There is no way to save a private copy on wiki." But I don't think it's that big of a problem. If I were going to add a message, it would probably be about the desirability of citing sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

First edit stats

Some of you might be interested in some first edit stats I asked for.

BLUF: 70% of first edits are to an existing page, and 90% of those are to the mainspace/articles. If your first edit is to create a new page, then a third of them get deleted within the first week. Only 1 in 60 of those first-edit page creations get moved to the mainspace, and about 20% of those get deleted shortly afterwards.

The queries are quarry:query/84512 and quarry:query/84486 if anyone ever wants to re-run them in the future. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

My quotable takeaway factoid from the above synopsis is Editors who attempt to create a new Wikipedia article as their first action have a 1-in-75 success rate. Folly Mox (talk) 11:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

That sounds about right. And it's likely much lower (perhaps by about an order of magnitude) than in our pre-ACTRIAL systems. We are probably losing notable subjects because of the hoop-jumping required by NPP and AFC. There are downsides as well as upsides to our current systems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

For sure. We've got a lot of priorities to balance, and pervasive lack of agreement on the weightings. I'm really grateful for your involvement. Folly Mox (talk) 14:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

How it was going

Apologies to DandelionAndBurdock, RudolfRed, Cordless Larry, and CFA for my recent deletion of the thread "How’s it going", complete with their well-meant contributions; but as the thread developed it became increasingly obvious that the original (and repeated) poster was either an extraordinarily silly person or an attention-seeking troll; either way, a time-waster. There's no point indulging such people. -- Hoary (talk) 22:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

That's understandable. I was going to close the discussion until I saw that the instructions at Template:Hidden archive top state that that should only be done by an uninvolved editor. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The IPs have now been blocked for block evasion and trolling. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

"Searc..." and "Se..."

The above two strings are what render in Wikipedia:Teahouse/Header on my device when the "search help pages" button is labeled "Search Help" and "Search", respectively. Can someone who knows what they're doing (evidently not me: see my bungled attempt) have a go at reformatting Wikipedia:Teahouse/Host lounge/Announcements/1 or the header itself such that a full word appears on the search button on narrow screens? Folly Mox (talk) 10:28, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Special:Diff/1236986938

Please let me know if this makes the "Search Help" button look stupider for anyone. I imagine the true fix is getting it to display the same regardless of client parameters, but  Works for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Folly Mox (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Follow-up on Bot inoperable

@Usernamekiran and Frostly: happy Friday! No news from Tigraan, I presume? Is the revival of Muninnbot still ongoing? Thanks for bearing with yet another check in. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 16:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rotideypoc41352: Hi. Yes, I have worked a little on the bot. I think I would get it running in a week or two. I apologise for the delay. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! For reference: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/KiranBOT 13 (permalink) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 21:43, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Trial run approved. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 14:44, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Help the Wikimedia Foundation better understand how on-wiki collaborations work

The Campaigns team at the Wikimedia Foundation is interested in learning from diverse editors that have experience joining and working on WikiProjects, Campaigns, and other kinds of on-wiki collaboration. We need your help:

• Take a survey about your experience with collaborations: with this Google Form
• Share examples of Collaborations or WikiProjects that have worked for you: m:Campaigns/WikiProjects

Whatever input you bring to the two spaces will help us make better decisions about next steps beyond the current tools we support. Astinson (WMF) (talk) 18:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

What's up with the search bar?

Has there always been so many questions about the search bar? This seems to also be a very recurring question on the help desk. I know it's fixable by unzooming, but is this intentionnal or a bug? The best documentation we have is this... : Wikipedia:Help desk#Search tool and is what I see often linked. Thanks! win8x (talking | spying) 22:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I remember an influx of interface-related questions when the WMF decided to change the default skin to Vector 2022. Was there an update a while back that changed some interface elements? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

That's what I was wondering. It seems like a pretty bad accessibility issue if users with high zoom can't see the search bar, and afaik I haven't seen these questions before the one I linked above, from 6 September. win8x (talking | spying) 01:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I played around with the zoom levels on Chrome. As far as I can tell, the search bar disappears when pages are viewed at 150% zoom, and at that point the user has to click on the that appears next to at the top of the page. Doing so causes the search bar to appear and hide the and the Wikipedia logo in the top-left corner. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, is that what this person is asking about? (Feel free to answer on my talk) Seems like maybe an attempt to integrate the mobile and desktop versions and to use a more mobile-esque version when zoomed in enough that the screen appears to have low-resolution. Whatever change it was, the developers will probably want to know; perhaps there's some way they might want to change the feature or to add a notice along the lines of "search bar is now here"? @OVasileva (WMF), would you know anything about this or who to ping? Sdkb ^talk 17:08, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Sdkb It looks like this is exactly what it is. That editor is searching the search icon since their zoom level is too high. I've answered on your talk page. Thanks for pinging someone from the WMF; I'd have no clue. win8x (talking | spying) 20:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

There's also a similar question being asked at mw:Talk:Reading/Web/Desktop Improvements, where I requested a link to a changelog for the skin. Hopefully someone from the WMF knows something about this. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Duplicate topics in archive

I have reported the problem on User talk:Σ.

The duplicate content is in User:Vchimpanzee/sandbox.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 23:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Nice! I appreciate that. Steven1991 (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Community Wishlist: Invitation to Explore the Article Creation Guidance Focus Area

Hello Teahouse,

The Community Wishlist has gathered a collection of wishes and suggestions over time, highlighting the need for better support and guidance for newcomers as they create articles, while also aiming to reduce frustration and reverts. These ideas have been grouped under the Article Creation Guidance Focus Area.

We invite both hosts and those interested in improving newcomer workflows to explore these wishes, join the discussion on the focus area’s collective talk page, and cast your vote if this topic resonates with you.

On behalf of the Community Tech team, STei (WMF) (talk) 17:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove Deletion Box Sabi Christy Page

Sabi Christy is an Costume Designer of Shine Tom Chacko and worked in so many malayalam films. Would you please approve this page for him. it will help more notable for him. Please help me to develop this page.

Thanks, ArifVlog782 (talk) 06:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@ArifVlog782: This is the wrong place to ask for help, and it looks like the page has already been deleted. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Reverted vandalism

I have just reverted some childish vandalism to the Teahouse, which had removed the usual page-top navigation templates, etc., and left a silly message. This is not usually the sort of area I operate in, so others may wish to check what I've done and to take any warning or other steps appropriate regarding the vandal. Thanks. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 19:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This page is for discussion about the operation of the Teahouse, and is not the Teahouse itself. (That's at WP:TEAHOUSE). Vandalism should be reported to WP:AIV. 331dot (talk) 20:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The IP's comment was about the operation of the Teahouse though. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, 94/87! Not going to bother with a warning at this point since the IP hasn't edited since, looks otherwise fine to me. Happy editing, Perfect4th (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2024

The Scale of the Universe

I am on the edge of getting banned rn. I added the description in the info box, i've been doing this for 3 days straight. But the one about the water molecule had a joke about how they look like mickey mouse heads, so they called it vandalism, I reported and undid the mistake, but then it said that I might loss privileges, and if I'm getting banned for telling the truth, then so be it, i'm going to undo the bot bot again, and if this is the last message I send, I want this account's dying with to be to remove ClueBot NG. goodbye Saarabout (talk) 16:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

WHY IS THE TEAHOUSE PROTECTED

Because there was disruptive editing from an IP editor. You should be discussing your reverted edits at Talk:The Scale of the Universe rather than edit warring. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

What is the difference between Teahouse project page and Teahouse Talk Page

What is the difference between Teahouse project page and Teahouse Talk Page UnsungHistory (talk) 20:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@UnsungHistory This is answered at the top of the page, the talk page is to discuss how the Teahouse is ran, while the Teahouse itself is for asking questions about Wikipedia. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 20:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Pending changes

This page, provided especially to welcome new users, should not have pending changes protection. User:Ivanvector, please undo this ASAP (same for WP:Help desk). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

This and the help desk has been the target of an abusive user(on the assumption that we won't protect those pages). 331dot (talk) 19:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Andy, I don't think you were around when we were dealing with this, and pending changes (where anon editors can edit with moderation) seems preferable to semiprotection (where anon editors can't edit at all) and also to reverting a vandal every few minutes. I'm open to suggestions, though. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That was almost 24 hours ago, and warrants protection for a few hours at most, not a month, unless repeated on another occasion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The history of this user is that they resume targeting this page when protection ends. 331dot (talk) 19:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Well I do love your optimism that this particular user is going to give up after a day of protection. They've been at it for about eight months at this point, after writing things like this, and personally I'm disinclined to not act on it. But if you insist, I will unprotect the pages. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't really see the point in using pending changes here. Nothing is prevented — their changes still have to be reverted. All it does is make people approve every other edit. I personally think we should just leave their posts and quietly remove them after a couple hours instead of getting into long revert-wars that ultimately result in semi-protection anyways. C F A 💬 00:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm going to bring this up at WP:AN for wider opinions. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)