Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography

General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)

P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
   1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
   2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
   3. Have at least 4 participants.
2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
   1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
   2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

• 15 days ago is: 19:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• 7 days ago is: 19:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as History and Geography subjects:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/History

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Physical

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Cities

Add Battle of Guilford Court House  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The American Revolutionary War  4 could definitely use more than 3 battles when the Civil War has 16. This battle had major effects on the war, led to the Siege of Yorktown  5 which ended the war, became the first American Revolution battle to have its battlefield preserved by the National Park Service, and it even has a town in New Hampshire named after it!

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support as a swap with some Civil War battle, 16 is way too many. Oppose otherwise. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   Which battle would you suggest removing? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

3. Support add, can't say which Civil War battle should be cut Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 18:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 16 Civil War battles is too many but the Civil War was still fought on a greater order of magnitude than the American Revolutionary War. (The biggest Civil War battles killed more than the entire Revolution). And if we added another American Revolutionary War battle, I'd add Trenton or Brandywine before this one. _pbp 12:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Bratsk  5 with Novokuznetsk

Bratsk is already covered by Irkutsk  5 and Irkutsk Oblast  5. Novokuznetsk, on the other hand, is a major coal mining and industrial centre and has the 16th highest GMP of all Russian cities. Up until recently, it had a higher population than Kemerovo  5. It feels odd excluding it from a list of 6 cities in the Siberian Federal District, let alone 12. Compared to Bratsk, Novo has slightly more interwikis, double the English and Russian pageviews, and 2.4 times the population. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Bratsk has 53 daily page views, which quite low. Makkool (talk) 12:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap. Interstellarity (talk) 23:08, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Trinity (nuclear test)

Important subtopic of the Manhattan Project. Interstellarity (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Manhattan Project  4 is Level 4, so we could spare a subtopic. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
4. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Bessarabia

Currently we list Banat, Galicia, Pomerania and Silesia. Bessarabia is another historical region of Europe with relevance in the modern day.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Decided to land on this side. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. I would support historical regions like this, but it's really just Moldova  4 with Transnistria  4 traded for Budjak and part of Chernivtsi Oblast  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Brașov

Brașov has a metropolitan area population of around 350k, making it the fifth-largest city in Romania, and in the same boat as the other Romanian cities on the list, excluding Bucharest  4 and Târgu Mureș  5. I would propose a swap with the latter, but I'd weakly oppose the removal since we're 25 under quota in Cities. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap with Târgu Mureș Makkool (talk) 15:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap with Târgu Mureș Interstellarity (talk) 00:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   @Makkool: I understand if I am overestimating Romania's importance, but what is your rationale? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   I think 8 cities for Romania is just about enough. I would actually support a swap with Târgu Mureș, but not a straight-up add. Makkool (talk) 19:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   I just thought we could have another Romanian city since it is the most populous country in the Balkans  4 (a region that may warrant V3). Mures gets its importance from being the largest city in the Hungarian-speaking Székely Land  5, but I'm not sure if having both the region and the city is necessary.

   Demographically speaking, Mureș has a much weaker case. The largest FUAs in Romania are Bucharest  4 (2.221m), Iași  5 (395k), Cluj-Napoca  5 (386k), Timișoara  5 (352k), Brașov (348k), Constanța  5 (346k), Craiova  5 (264k), Ploiești (248k), Galați  5 (244k), and Oradea (201k). Mureș is a long way down, at 156k. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   Bulgaria, Hungary and the Czech Republic have 4 cities each, and their population is about half of Romania's, so that's the reasoning for 8 cities. I've changed my stance now from oppose to swap. Makkool (talk) 15:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

   Hmm, Bulgaria has five cities (Sofia at V4, Plovdiv, Varna, Burgas, and Ruse) and a population of under 7 million. Are the five of them really all important enough for V5? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Causes of World War I

Covers several events that may not be vital in themselves but together are quite important, such as the First Moroccan Crisis, the Bosnian Crisis, the Agadir Crisis, and the Anglo-German naval arms race. It is ranked Top Importance by WikiProject European History, same as Causes of World War II  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
2. We list Causes of World War II, may support Causes of the Great Depression. Interstellarity (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
4. It's needed. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

1. How many war causation articles are at VA?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Add all 7 geographical regions of Türkiye

Türkiye and Iran have comparable populations, but Iran gets over twice as many cities as Türkiye. Iran also has all but two of its provinces and Türkiye has NOTHING under country subdivisions? The geographical regions of Turkey are definitely all vital at this level. The articles in question are:

We should have a bit more from Türkiye, but this is just a start. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Aegean Region

Population ~ 10.5m. Largest city is İzmir  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Black Sea Region

Population ~ 7.7m. Largest city is Samsun  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Central Anatolia Region

Population ~ 12.9m. Largest city is Ankara  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Eastern Anatolia Region

Population ~ 6.5m. Largest city is Van, Turkey  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Marmara Region

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Population ~ 26.7m. Largest city is Istanbul  3. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Mediterranean Region, Turkey

Population ~ 10.6m. Largest city is Antalya  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Southeastern Anatolia Region

Population ~ 8.6m. Largest city is Urfa  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

General discussion

1. Not sure I am comfortable adding these as a group.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

   I will reformat my proposal. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Cappadocia  5 (not OP)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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We should list some of the historical regions as well. Cappadocia definitely, as its still relevant today and a popular tourist destination. Place under Central Anatolia Region.

Support

1. As nom.Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add East Thrace (not OP)

The part of Turkey that's in Europe. Place under Marmara Region.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 12:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Has a higher population than Belgium. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 18:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Languedoc and Midi-Pyrénées

All of the pre-2016 regions of France should have representation imo. These were the two regions that were merged into Occitania  5 in 2016. Languedoc in particular was kept at V4 for an extended amount of time during the cull. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Support Languedoc-Roussillon NOT Languedoc and support Midi-Pyrénées. Languedoc-Roussillon was the region that was merged to form Occitania. Languedoc is the historical province. Languedoc-Roussillon has 102 interwikis, Languedoc only has 52 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:10, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add 180th meridian

Similar in importance to international date line and prime meridian. Interstellarity (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Recent additions without discussion

I have recently reverted several edits adding entries without discussion by a certain user, mainly to history, which possibly got a lot closer to hitting/exceeding the quota solely based on their additions. I realized I had already reverted these at least twice before, which went seemingly unnoticed and I just had to leave a talk page telling them to stop. Aside from that, I'm not sure how other entries they added should be dealt with, especially as it seems one of them was 8888 Uprising  5 which had an active proposal for when it was added and it was closed seemingly without being noticed. Iostn (talk) 19:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

We should probably undo all of their changes that haven't been passed. It seems like we can keep the 8888 Uprising  5 since it passed regardless but everything else should be rolled back. I am going to assume that maybe they were operating in good faith and didn't realize changes required a discussion so hopefully there will be no more after your warning. I can roll some of them back later today. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I am removing even more of these that haven't been removed yet. Hoben7599 Varoart2005 and Zanahary - you need to achieve consensus for additions, not just add them yourself undiscussed. starship.paint (RUN) 07:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies @Starship.paint! I was under the impression that level 5 VAs could just be designated boldly. Looking again at the policies, I don’t know where I got that idea. I will initiate a discussion, thank you! ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@Zanahary: - previously it was okay to do so when the lists were far from full, but as we approached quotas then we stopped that practice already. No worries. starship.paint (RUN) 01:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Add Jiaxing

One of four Tier 2 Chinese cities to not be V5. Located in Zhejiang  4. 45 interwikis. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
2. And support the other three Tier 2 cities as well. China is underrepresented relative to its population _pbp 23:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

   @Purplebackpack89: May I copy your support for the other three, which I have proposed below? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

   Certainly _pbp 01:07, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

3. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
4. China is still under-represented Makkool (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Taizhou, Zhejiang

Per my nominations above. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Adding User:Purplebackpack89 per his vote at Jiangxi at 23:50 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
3. China is still under-represented Makkool (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Jiujiang

Per my nominations above. Note that Jiangxi  5 only has Nanchang  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Adding User:Purplebackpack89 per his vote at Jiangxi at 23:50 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
4. China is still under-represented Makkool (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Tripolitania and Cyrenaica

If we have as many Libyan cities as we do, then we can most certainly make room for these. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 16:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Weimar

Surprising omission under Cities. Definitely the most important city in Thuringia. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Influential philosophically and politically, the birthplace of the Weimar Republic  5. The Blue Rider 00:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Jacobitism

Major political movement in Great Britain. Cause many a headache for the British government due to foreign support and Irish nationalist undertones.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:32, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems like it used to be pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
4. _pbp 19:14, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Third batch of history removals

Remove History of Svalbard

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Features some interesting stories about Arctic exploration, but home to only 2,500 people.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove American automobile industry in the 1950s

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Another interesting article, archetypal of postwar industry in many ways, but too narrow in my opinion.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove History of Franconia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Since we don’t list Franconia. Has some coverage from History of Bavaria  5. Just 3 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap with Franconia  5, which definitely should be listed. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with Franconia _pbp 16:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
4. support swap. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
5. support swap with Franconia Makkool (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove History of Guernsey and History of Jersey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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These already have some coverage from the History of the British Isles  5 article. Minor regions of the U.K.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove 2011–2015 Myanmar political reforms  5

These reforms were rolled back devastatingly after the 2021 Myanmar coup d'état  5. I would put these reforms on the same level as the failed Sudanese transition to democracy (2019–2021), which we voted to remove recently. Low pageviews and interwikis suggest this period is not yet well-defined.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. No lasting impact. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Iran–United States relations  5

This provides a convenient summary of conflicts between nations but isn’t technically a “History” article. It is the only “country relations” entry we list.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove History of monorail  5

Minor article in the History of rail transport  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Not every VA4 topic needs its history listed. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Danish colonization of the Americas  5

I think this falls under interesting but not vital. Keep in mind we have Danish overseas colonies  5 and Danish Realm  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Death of Azaria Chamberlain

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Since we voted to remove Killing of JonBenét Ramsey, I was wondering what you think of this one.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Pax Britannica

Period of relative peace between the Great Powers. Important concept for International relations (1814–1919)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Yes. The Blue Rider 00:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Indo-Pakistani wars

Though I would support listing the four major wars fought between 1947 and 1999 (we only have the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971  5), this is a convenient grouping for one of the longest-lasting conflicts of the modern era.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jewish exodus from the Muslim world

Important concept relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict  4.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war

Not the snappiest title, but these were responsible for around 3 million deaths. From the article: “The deaths among Soviet prisoners of war were numerically exceeded only by the (civilian) Jews and has been called "one of the greatest crimes in military history".

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Historical region additions

Since we have cut back the number of regions quite a deal, we could add a few more historical regions.

Add Appenzell

As suggested by QuicoleJR above.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Was an independent country for some time, and was a Swiss canton for some time after that. It fought several wars and had an impact on the history of Switzerland for the two centuries it existed for. It ended up being split into two Swiss cantons. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Switzerland. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Karelia  5

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Historical region in areas of modern day Finland and Russia. We only list the Russian side, Republic of Karelia  5.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Total population adds up to almost a million. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
3. 70 interwikis, rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Russia, WikiProject Finland, and WikiProject Geography. Those are the best stats I have seen for an addition proposal in a while! It also appears to be a vital area according to the article's lead. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. _pbp 14:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
5. Surprised we didn't have this already, good find. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Would Ingria also be a reasonable addition? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

1. Yeah, I didn't think of that. Added a proposal below, thanks! Makkool (talk) 21:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Livonia  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Historical region in areas of modern day Estonia and Latvia.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems to have a lot of historical importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Courland

Another historical region of Latvia. We could add more of them, but suggesting these two for now.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Latvia has a population of under two million, so two regions should be enough. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ingria

Another historical region from European part of Russia

Support

1. As nom. Makkool Makkool (talk) 21:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Central Hungary

We list now Transdanubia  5, Northern Hungary  5 and Great Hungarian Plain  5. If we would list Central Hungary as well, that would complete all four main regions of Hungary.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Tyrol  5

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We list the Austrian side Tyrol (state)  5 and the Italian side South Tyrol  5, but not the whole historical region itself.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 10:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Politically and historical important region. The Blue Rider 00:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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South Asian early modern history additions

Add Kingdom of Nagpur

One of the four rajas (member states) of the Maratha Confederacy  4, in addition to Gwalior State  5 and Baroda State  5. Fairly large at its peak.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Indore State

One of the four rajas (member states) of the Maratha Confederacy  4, in addition to Gwalior State  5 and Baroda State  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Ahmadnagar Sultanate

Member of the Deccan sultanates  4, and one of the three major of them not already a vital article, in addition to the Sultanate of Bijapur  5 and the Sultanate of Golconda  5. Larger and more prosperous than many of the small states currently in the same category.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Swap out Qajar dynasty  5 and Safavid dynasty  4 for Qajar Iran and Safavid Iran

The articles Qajar dynasty  5 and Safavid dynasty  4 are vital articles despite being only the dynasties for the countries they ruled, the much larger pages Qajar Iran and Safavid Iran. The latter two articles, about the countries themselves, are obviously the "vital" and more important of the two; 1319 words (Qajar dynasty) vs 7585 words (Qajar Iran) and 1239 words (Safavid dynasty) vs 19185 words (Safavid Iran). I don't see how we managed to have such mismatch in VA-ness, but these should of course be swapped.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I personally think the dynasties are more important than the states themselves (and some evidence to back this is up is the fact that both dynasties have more interwikis than their state counterparts). It's a shame that the dynasty pages are not great but that's the point of this whole VA5 project: to identify important pages that may have gaps in content and quality and fix them. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

• The Safavid swap would need to be proposed on the VA4 talk page instead of here, as it is a VA4 article. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Historical cities additions

Add Olympia, Greece  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The location of the ancient Olympic games. Add to historical cities.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Why not. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Smyrna

An ancient Greek city in Anatolia, now Izmir, Türkiye.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Lüshunkou, Dalian

Formerly the historical city of Port Arthur, now a part of larger city Dalian  4.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Pataliputra

Was the capitol of several empires who reigned in the Indian subcontinent, and was once the largest cities in the world.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Move Solidarity (Polish trade union)  5

I just noticed that Solidarity is listed in the history page, which is confusing to me, because it is an active trade union with hundreds of thousands of members, not a historical event (although I understand it was extremely important during the 1980s). I'm proposing it be moved to the individual trade unions list, which I think is a better fit. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Solidarity as a trade union is not VA5 in my opinion. I can't find current membership estimates but considering the trajectory, it most likely wouldn't even crack the top 100 largest trade unions in the world by active membership. All the trade unions we currently list are still massive and influential today. We could instead swap for the History of Solidarity article which, though it has only 6 interwikis, was a featured article. However, I'm fine with making Solidarity an exception we keep in History. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Greater China

A historical-cultural region with ties to the Chinese people, including both People's Republic of China and Republic of China (Taiwan). It feels like an article we should list in Vital Articles: we have the space for it, and it's rated High-Importance in Wikiproject China. Also a decent number of language versions (32).

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Kolkhoz

Collective farming  4 is LV4 so we could have a subtopic for it. The kolkhoz was the collective farm on the Soviet Union. A vital topic for Eastern bloc history.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Split of Christianity and Judaism

A very significant historical process that gave rise to the Abrahamic complex of religions. Essential for the history of Christianity  3 and of Judaism  3.

Support

1. As nom. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:13, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sungai Ruan  5 and add Perlis

It's a village, not a state or a territory. It's not very noteworthy either. 2 interwikis. Perlis, however, is a state, and it's missing from the list. IDBLWK (talk) 05:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. IDBLWK (talk) 05:28, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Southwest Papua

It's the only Indonesian province that is not listed here. IDBLWK (talk) 05:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. IDBLWK (talk) 05:53, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recentism, it has yet to be two years since it split off from West Papua. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Ohnoitsvileplume. The Blue Rider 19:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Battle of the Hydaspes and Battle of Ain Jalut

Two decisive battles in the History of Asia. The former marked Greek expansion into the Indian subcontinent, (such as the Indo-Greek Kingdom  4). The former halted Mongol invasions and conquests  4 into the Middle East and preserved the political and cultural landscape of the region.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Belt and Road Initiative

A centerpiece of Chinese foreign policy, unprecedented in scope and magnitude of investment.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:05, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Important, perhaps level 4. The Blue Rider 14:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
6. _pbp 16:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Battle of Chaeronea (338 BCE)

Philip II of Macedon's victory over the Greek city-states. Led to the rise of Macedonian dominance in the Ancient Greek world.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:29, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Though I've never heard of this battle, high importance in the Classical Greece and Rome project (on the same level as Socrates and amphitheater) seems to indicate importance. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Trojan Horse

Famous weapon of the Trojan War. Maybe better filed under Greek Mythology.

Support

1. As nominator. To history. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:29, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
2. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 17:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
6. Support, but file under Mythological items. Makkool (talk) 11:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
7. SupportGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Athenian democracy

The prototypical Ancient Greek democratic city-state.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
2. reasonable addition Aurangzebra (talk) 20:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
4. The first government to be called a democracy. An easy add. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 22:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
5. Important. The Blue Rider 14:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Dominican War of Independence

Led to the creation of the Dominican Republic  4. Unique among Latin American wars of Independence, as this was fought against Haiti.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makes sense. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Imperial House of Japan

"The Japanese monarchy is the oldest continuous hereditary monarchy in the world." Dates back to at least the 6th century.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Battle of Tsushima

The culminating engagement of the Russo-Japanese War  4. Often viewed as one the most important naval battles in history.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 12:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Peace of Utrecht

We list five battles from the War of the Spanish Succession  4 but this is arguably more important. Its provisions drew the balance of power in Europe for much of the 18th century.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Council of Trent

One of the most important events of the Counter-Reformation  4. It shaped the trajectory of the Catholic Church for the future, solidifying its doctrines and practices.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 18:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:04, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Battle of Mohács

There were many key battles fought during this period, such as Siege of Vienna (1529) and the Siege of Rhodes (1522). This was arguably the most significant victory by Suleiman the Magnificent  3, marking the expansion of Ottoman influence deeper into Europe, and their coming into direct conflict with the Habsburgs.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nevado Sajama

The highest peak in Bolivia, an extinct volcano with a decent amount of geographical and cultural importance. 44 interwikis, rated High-Importance by WikiProject Volcanoes and Top-Importance by WikiProject Mountains.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 21:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Northeast megalopolis

World's largest megalopolis by economic output, and USA's most populous megalopolis. Consists of New York, Philadelhia and Boston metropolitan areas combined. The term Megalopolis  5 was popularized by a study published on this region.

New York metropolitan area hasn't been getting support to be added, but I was thinking this larger whole would have better chances.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 21:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
2. More vital than the Blue Banana 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:45, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Hans Island

Physical Geography is well under the quota, so we have room for more articles there. This island was famously the subject of a decades-long dispute between Canada and Denmark, which ended in them splitting it down the middle, creating a land border between the two. 42 interwikis, rated High-Importance by WikiProject Greenland.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:03, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 08:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Meh, more like an interesting historical trivia than vital. The Blue Rider 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add Causes of the Great Depression

Proposing for similar reasons as Causes of World War I and World War II.

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add famous beaches

Add Bondi Beach

World famous beach. To Physical geography

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Copacabana, Rio de Janeiro

Another, even more famous beach. Although the article is framed to be about a neighbourhood of Rio, rather than the beach. Should be placed to Cities instead then?

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 14:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Remove Hurricane Maria

We do have Hurricane Katrina on this list since it was the costliest Atlantic hurricane in history. However, we don't list other costly hurricanes in history like this one and it wasn't as bad as Katrina was. Yes, it devastated Puerto Rico pretty badly, but I think there are better ones to list other than this one specifically.

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. We don't list enough disasters as it stands. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Meh. I don't think we should list only one Atlantic hurricane (that being Katrina), even if this isn't the greatest choice for a second one. You could also make the argument of this hurricanes effects outside of the contiguous United States giving it a reason to be listed for representation purposes. I'll support if you list some hurricanes that you'd include over Maria. λ NegativeMP1 00:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

   I think in a couple years, we should consider adding Hurricane Helene. I think it probably passes the bar now, but I also think that if I nominated it now, some people would oppose it because it was so recent. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove Hallstatt

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It's pretty and it receives a disproportionate amount of tourists relative to its size, but it's ultimately a small village settlement.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. (We already list Salzkammergut  5.) Makkool (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Makkool. Hallstadt culture and its associated UNESCO site are vital; the hamlet of Hallstadt is not _pbp 00:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
4. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add World Heritage Sites

The physical geography section has some room, and so I thought some missing World Heritage Sites could be added.

Add Dolomites  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Well-known mountain range in Italy. There's a national park and several other regional parks.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom, surprised we don't list these already. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 21:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
4. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Plitvice Lakes National Park

Popular national park in Croatia, and the most famous natural wonder of the country.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
3. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Komodo National Park  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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National park in Indonesia, established to protect the habitat of the endagered Komodo dragon.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:36, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
4. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Wadi Rum

Archaelogically important valley in Jordan, also one their most known tourist attractions.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
3. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Gelsenkirchen  5 and Oberhausen  5

We list six cities in the Ruhr, a relatively dense urban area. I do not see the need to list this many. Oberhausen in particular is overshadowed by the nearby larger cities of Duisburg  5 and Essen  5.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. This and the addition of Rhineland, which might be close to V4. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Gelsenkirchen due to its important historial industrial status ("In the early 20th century, Gelsenkirchen was the most important coalmining town in Europe"), neutral on Oberhausen as that does have a 200k+ population and it may be a case of the article being in a poor status and not really explaining its full significance. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

   Also to add: Germany is actually underrepresnted relative to other European countries, with a population of 82 million, but with the same number of cities as France (~66 million in metropole) and less than the UK (~68 million) Iostn (talk) 22:09, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

   I proposed Weimar above to compensate for Germany's underrepresentation 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Wolverhampton  5

Overshadowed by the much larger city of Birmingham  4 nearby within the West Midlands conurbation.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:48, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Since Birmingham is V4, it makes sense to have a city in the metro area at this level. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Siena  5

Siena is the 12th largest city in the region by number of inhabitants, with a population of 53,062 as of 2022. Certainly one of the smaller places we list.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Italy is over-represented. The city has historical importance, but in my opinion it's not by itself enough to be listed as vital. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Historically significant. More to city vitality than population alone. _pbp 16:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Sassari  5

I do not think Sardinia  4 (pop. 1.6M) needs two cities.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:04, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Sardinia is a major island, and I feel two cities is enough when Sicily gets four (Palermo, Syracuse, Messina and Catania). I would support removing Sassari, if we would cut some Sicilian city. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

   Eh, Siracusa is very important historically and fits in better with the historical city section, but the other three are somewhat large cities and meet the general population criteria for a Western European city. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Pisa  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The Leaning Tower of Pisa  4 is vital; the city itself (pop. 99k) is not.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Historically significant. More to city vitality than population alone. _pbp 16:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per pbp; birthplace of Republic of Pisa  5. The Blue Rider 19:38, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose; Tuscany may be overrepresented, but as some have stated, it is much more than its tower and is not the first Italian city I would remove. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Per above Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
5. Even just on the basis of being an extremely popular tourist destination alone, this deserves to be here (I will die on the hill that popular tourist spots should be considered for VA5 even if the town itself is low in population). Aurangzebra (talk) 22:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Giugliano in Campania  5

A not particularly large (pop. 124k) suburb of Naples  4.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 16:10, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
3. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom, strange inclusion Aurangzebra (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove San Cristóbal de La Laguna  5

Tenerife  5 (pop. 949k) does not need two settlements listed. Plus, San Cristóbal de La Laguna is less than 10km from Santa Cruz de Tenerife  5), the capital and largest city of the island.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
3. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nature reserve

Vital omission, should definitely be added. To Physical geography / Parks, preserves and World Heritage Sites.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Zhongxing New Village  5

A small planned town whose only claim to fame is serving as the seat of the nominal Taiwan Provincial Government from 1957 to 2018.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:13, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but very weak. This seems like it might be a pretty big claim to fame. That said, tehre are many other things that should be included this removal could make room for. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Lower Manhattan and Midtown Manhattan

Lower Manhattan is the historical birthplace of New York City  3 and for its first 225 years was the entirety of the city. Midtown Manhattan is the largest central business district in the world, and has been ranked as the densest central business district in the world.

Support

As nominator. Note that we list Chicago Loop  5. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:37, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Support Midtown as a swap with Wall Street  5, which often refers to a metonym of Financial District. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:22, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Similar to the reasons I opposed Manhattan  5 --> 4 (It was proposed but no consensus to do it). Manhattan itself is currently VA5, do we need MULTIPLE articles on Manhattan (itself a part of New York City) at this level? Isn't much of what's in Lower and Midtown Manhattan somewhat redundant to Manhattan and New York City? And I as I said with Manhattan up to 4, are Manhattan/Lower Manhattan/Midtown Manhattan so gosh darn important that they get multiple vital articles while the dozens of American cities we've removed from VA5 in the past year or so get none? _pbp 12:43, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

   are Manhattan/Lower Manhattan/Midtown Manhattan so gosh darn important that they get multiple vital articles while the dozens of American cities we've removed from VA5 in the past year or so get none? Yes, unironically. The importance of New York City – especially for international readers – is next level compared to many (if not most) American "cities" which are mostly just a small number of tall buildings surrounded by lots of single-family housing. Either of Midtown or Lower Manhattan would far exceed many American cities we removed by daytime population, economic output, and number of notable landmarks. feminist🩸 (talk) 00:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

   What about the rest of what I said, like the redundancy part? _pbp 16:49, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

2. per pbp. Lower Manhattan and Midtown Manhattan are completely redundant to Manhattan  5 and to a lesser extent Wall Street  5. It made sense to include all the 5 boroughs of NYC since they have very distinct cultures, histories, and urban geographies (they basically feel like 5 different cities combined into one). But Lower Manhattan and Midtown Manhattan are completely subsumed by Manhattan. I can anecdotally back this up because I currently live in NYC (and lived for a year in Lower Manhattan). Aurangzebra (talk) 22:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
3. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Mixed

Discuss

On second thoughts, I no longer support this, mainly per Aurangzebra. I can't formally withdraw this nomination because OhnoitsvileplumeXD has supported, but I am retracting my support vote. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Add May Fourth Movement

A major event in modern Chinese history with major implications such as the founding of the Chinese Communist Party  4.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Easy support. The Blue Rider 19:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:21, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add East Jerusalem

Important geopolitical concept. _pbp 17:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 17:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
2. If we list East Berlin  5, we should also list East Jerusalem. feminist🩸 (talk) 00:43, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:22, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
5. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 03:10, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. I'll be the dissenting opinion here. While I know East Jerusalem has some broad significance, I don't think subregions and districts within cities need to be included. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Swap Saint-Denis, Seine-Saint-Denis  5 for Trier

Saint-Denis is a suburb of Paris that has a high population and appears to be a major part of Paris, but isn't really that notable by itself other than having a couple of landmarks, and in all honesty I am not sure what its doing here. Trier is relatively small population-wise, but is a city of great historical and cultural importance, with many important historical events having taken place here.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal. "A couple of landmarks" is rather an understatement...a basilica that's the burial site of French kings? The national stadium that also hosted the 2024 Olympics? Furthermore, removing Saint-Denis would leave the Ile-de-France, pop 10 million, with just two VA5 entries, including none from the Petite Couronne (pop 4.5 million). _pbp 23:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

   That's more of an argument for listing Basilica of Saint-Denis, which isn't currently VA, rather than the district its located in (in retrospect that may have been a better swap proposal, but I still think Trier should be listed). Also Ile-de-France is essentially just the Paris metro area, and for comparison, only two areas of London are currently listed (City of London  5, City of Westminster  5). In general the threshold for suburbs and districts is high and in this case listing the landmarks instead makes more sense. Iostn (talk) 22:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add History of archaeology

We list the History of every other Level 3 discipline, so it's reasonable to have this one as well.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Fair enough reason. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Makes sense. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 02:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Ansan  5, Anyang, Gyeonggi  5, Gwangmyeong  5 and Uijeongbu  5

Suburbs of Seoul  4 which are not particularly large.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 08:44, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Support all removal

Mixed

• Support Gwangmyeong only, oppose the rest: Two of these have populations over half a mil and a third is over 400,000. See below _pbp 12:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

FWIW, here are the populations of the four cities in question:

• Ansan 623,256
• Anyang 551,228
• Gwangmyeong 277,564
• Uijeongbu 460,284

Makes you wonder how large is "not particularly large" _pbp 12:29, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The majority of the districts of Seoul each have a population of over 400,000, but we do not list any districts of Seoul at level 5. There is more to city vitality than population alone. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove Gimhae  5

A suburb of Busan  4 which is not otherwise historically significant or touristy.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 08:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sylt

A major tourist destination in Germany. Place under Physical geography#Islands.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 08:53, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Dunkirk evacuation

Incredibly surprised this didn't make the list considering all the WW2 articles we have _pbp 21:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 21:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Sha Tin District

The largest district of Hong Kong  3 by population, larger than many cities we list.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 03:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. I don't think Population alone makes an area vital, and if we start adding specific articles for districts and neighborhoods within cities, this list will get enormous.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
2. per PBP. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Adding individual districts is a bridge too far, at least on this level, maybe on V6? Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

What makes, for example, Jersey City, New Jersey  5 any more of a city than Sha Tin, other than Jersey City being legally recognised as a city? feminist🩸 (talk) 03:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

What makes it more of a CITY, or what makes it more VITAL?

Because Sha Tin is a district of Hong Kong, you would expect overlap between the two articles. Because Jersey City is an independent city, you would NOT expect it to overlap with NYC or Newark.

And if we're doing rhetoricals, what makes Sha Tin more vital than Ansan, Korea, which is about the same size and is up for removal? What makes it AS vital as Brooklyn or Queens, which have considerably more people? _pbp 14:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove Stirling  5

This "city" has under 50,000 people. At one time, we thought Scotland was underrepresented, but with 6 cities against only 5 million people, it's probably OVERrepresented now _pbp 15:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 15:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

• Pinging Grnrchst who seems to be a subject-matter expert on Scotland. The Blue Rider 20:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Remove Inverness  5

As with Stirling above, a "city" of just under 50,000 in a region/country that's OVERrepresented. Also somewhat redundant to the Scottish Highlands, themselves listed at VA5 and rather sparsely populated with total of 600,000 _pbp 15:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 15:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Regarded as the capital of the Scottish Highlands. Largest population for a city in the Highlands. Historically important city for the area, and a center for local administration. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

   Is the Scottish Highlands a large and significant enough area that both it and his "capital" need to be listed? It's smaller than all but the smallest U.S. states. Even Scotland as a whole is smaller than a lot of U.S. states. _pbp 18:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

   I think it's relative to population. UK is not as large as the US, so we're going to find smaller places to be vital. What comes to your question, then yes, the Highlands are an imporant enough region relative to Scotland, to include at least one city. Again, I find no reason to compare it to places in the US. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Big History

Important discipline that covers all of history.

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Big History isn't a particulary important academic field, despite its scope. The Blue Rider 23:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per TBR Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Central place theory

Central place theory is really important to the discipline of geography, and is fairly old and well established in the literature.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems somewhat important, and I believe this section is under the quota. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, under Physical geography/Basics Makkool (talk) 10:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Add 2000 United States Presidential election

Bush v Gore a highly contentious election that set the stage for 21st century American politics. 45 interwikis and over half a million page views in the past 30 days. If added I would suggest History > contemporary > United States, it would be the first election added

Support

1. @Kevinishere15: Putting my money where my mouth is Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I think we should list elections, and this should definitely be one of the ones we include. Kevinishere15 (talk) 05:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. We could really make the case for tons of important US presidential elections that we don't really have space for, and I don't think this really stands out too strongly other than the disputed outcome, it would make more sense to list elections included with the rise of different Party Systems, if anything. Iostn (talk) 20:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
2. (I may change my vote or rationale pending how the 2024 election develops) Similar to LostN. I don't think this one is a whole helluvalot more important than perhaps a dozen others, for one reason or another. 2020 provoked January 6th. 2008 (and possibly 2024) elected somebody historic. 1932 ushered in the New Deal. 1876 was also hotly contested and litigated (at least figuratively, if not literally). 1860 (listed below) ushered in the American Civil War. 1796 was the first under the two-party system. 1800 was the first peaceful transfer. Also, FWIW, G.W. Bush is Lv4, Gore, Cheney and the Clinton are Lv5. _pbp 21:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
3. oppose because I don't really think this one is that important in a long term perspective. I think that there are thousands of changes in administration in governments around the world throughout history that are likely more impactful then this. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose, would maybe support adding Bush v. Gore or 2000 United States presidential election in Florida. The Blue Rider 21:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

   What would make the election in Flordia any more vital then the election overall? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Comments

Election additions

wrt to discourse around elections, and since I have also noticed none are listed during the past

This is rather ironic considering there's LITERALLY an AMERICAN election going on TODAY _pbp 20:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Add 1860 United States presidential election

Directly setting the stage for the American Civil War  4, it arguably counts as the most important single US election.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 20:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Eh, if we're gonna start listing U.S. elections, this should be the first one. λ NegativeMP1 22:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Makes sense. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose because with very few exceptions, I don't think we should start listing elections. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add March 1933 German federal election

Led directly to the Nazi seizure of power and indirectly/more arguably, to World War II  3.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 20:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
3. I was actually going to nominate this and the one below. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak support, this is a very rare exception to my opinion on elections being listed. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add 1994 South African general election

Marked the end of Apartheid  4, and more broadly the final end of white minority rule on the African continent.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 20:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose because with very few exceptions, I don't think we should start listing elections. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Gaza genocide as a Level 5 Vital article

Should Gaza genocide be added as a Level 5 Wikipedia:Vital article? This was originally a topic here, but I am changing it to a RfC to get more community input Bogazicili (talk) 16:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. At a minimum, it is similar to Persecution of Uyghurs in China  5. Israeli–Palestinian conflict  4 is a higher level. Level 5 seems appropriate. Bogazicili (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Israel–Hamas war  5 is a level 5 vital, no need for sub-sub-topics; if anything 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel seems more appropriate, as it is more similar to September 11 attacks  4 and the subsequent US invasions. The Blue Rider 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

   @The Blue Rider: I wouldn't consider Gaza genocide a child article of Israel–Hamas war. They have overlapping material, but Gaza genocide has a different scope, including events that are happening outside the conflict area such as ongoing genocide investigation.

   World War I is not the child article of Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

   I'm ok with 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel being level 5. Bogazicili (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

2. Weak oppose - As it stands, this is largely synonymous with the article on the war. I think before this can be listed separately, we'd have to look at its impact on Gazan/Palestinian society once the death has stopped, in order to distinguish it from the article on the war, which we obviously won't be able to do for some time. Iostn (talk) 20:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

   @Iostn: see above Bogazicili (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose for at least several years. I get the desire to include every item currently in the news in these lists, but we need a bit of distance/hindsight before we can determine how vital it actually is. Like, if this was 1995 we might think NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, Operation Deliberate Force, or Operation Deny Flight should be included, but with the benefit of almost 30 years it's fairly safe to leave them off the list. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

   @GeogSage: did any of them result in genocide investigation against those NATO countries? And no, I have no desire to include every item currently in the news in these lists Bogazicili (talk) 15:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

   @Bogazicili: they were in response to humanitarian issues like the Račak massacre, and all the other specific War crimes in the Kosovo War. The entire Kosovo War  5 is level 5, we don't need to include every incident and set of war crimes. Yes, there was ethnic cleansing involved. We also don't list the the Buryat genocide, Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars, the Anfal campaign, the Late Ottoman genocides, Pontic Greek genocide, the Hamidian massacres, or other notable topics. Including the entire list of horrible things humans have done would need it's own list. I would personally want to let the dust settle for a few years on a developing WP:contentious topics topic like this. For example, and more to the point, we don't include First Battle of Gaza, Second Battle of Gaza, or Third Battle of Gaza, we just include the Sinai and Palestine campaign  5. Currently, the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip isn't included as a vital article, nor is the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, and I would consider it early to include either as it's hard to know how significant it will be in the broader context of the Israel–Hamas war  5. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

   @GeogSage:

   The article Late Ottoman genocides would be like the article Native American genocide in the United States. Both of them are not listed as vital articles. But the following articles are listed: Armenian genocide  4, California genocide  5, Greek genocide  5, Sayfo  5, Trail of Tears  5.

   But after checking few things, I did see a discrepancy. For example: Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction and Pacification of Algeria.

   I guess this would be due to Wikipedia:Systemic bias.

   This is also the conclusion of a PhD thesis:

   It demonstrates that Wikipedia narratives about national histories are distributed unevenly across the continents, with significant focus on the history of European countries (Eurocentric bias)

   Going back to Gaza genocide. Your initial analogy does not make sense to me. Countries participating in NATO bombings were not accused of genocide. See: South Africa's genocide case against Israel. So the analogy does not make sense in terms of what the attackers are accused of. Israel is the attacker in Gaza.

   The loss of human life in in Gaza genocide could be up to 335,500 [1]. This is multiple orders of magnitude higher than loss of life in your examples: NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, Operation Deliberate Force, or Operation Deny Flight. So the scale in your examples is not comparable to Gaza genocide. Bogazicili (talk) 16:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

   The lists here are not going to be perfect, and there are several pages that are not currently included like the example I gave of the Pontic Greek genocide which had "approximately 350,000 deaths", and ones you have mentioned. You stated "The loss of human life in in Gaza genocide could be up to 335,500." This is my main problem, the dust has not settled on these current events, and we don't know how things will turn out, and have a very limited idea about what has actually happened there. There are many similar events in history that we have a clearer picture of that are not included, and I'm concerned the introduction of this topic is Recency bias and is more current events then history at this moment. People haven't introduced a lot of these historic genocides because they have faded from public memory and are lost in the sea of tragedies that are in history. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

   @GeogSage: And I am concerned about Wikipedia:Systemic bias.

   I've quoted you research about the Eurocentric bias in English-language Wikipedia.

   Do you have any research about Recency bias in English-language Wikipedia? Bogazicili (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

   Analysing Timelines of National Histories Across Wikipedia Editions: A Comparative Computational Approach discusses recency bias. You're concerned about bias on Wikipedia, which I get, but it definitely seems like you're not particularly neutral in the things you have proposed adding. Please remember that Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise. An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinion, and Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges or import personal conflicts, nor is it the place to carry on ideological battles or nurture prejudice, hatred, or fear.

   The articles you're nominating, the examples I've listed you ignored, the Wikiprojects you list on your userpage, Wikipedia:Gaming the system on RfC, and hostility here makes it seem to me like you have a possible political agenda. The dust hasn't settled on this ongoing situation, my opinion on this nomination won't change for at least a few years. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

   @GeogSage: please refrain from WP:Aspersions. Thanks. Bogazicili (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

   k GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 22:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

4. I understand why you would think this article should be vital, I really do, and I'd almost certainly be open to it in the future. But I think that listing it at present is more or less political advocacy, as it's almost impossible to realistically separate this from the war (which is already vital), and that is not what Wikipedia stands for. I don't think it's comparable to something like Persecution of Uyghurs in China  5 or Holocaust. I really hope this does not sound apathetic, but we really do need at least few years to determine whether or not this needs to be listed separately from the more broad Israel–Hamas war  5 depending on how the war develops (which, with recent geopolitical developments, is definitely possible and is why I am open to adding it in the future). Also, I agree with below comments regarding that this shouldn't have been made into an RfC. λ NegativeMP1 22:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
5. Weak oppose. I'm sympathetic to the reasons you have nominated this, but it seems a little too recent to assess vitality. I would be open to having this discussion again a few years down the line, after the war ends. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Note that I started this topic on November 8. But turned it into an RfC now to get more community input. Looking at previous topics on this page, there seems to be usually 3 or 4 !votes. Bogazicili (talk) 16:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Seems like you are not liking the current outcome of your proposal and turned it into a RfC. Do take in mind that the WP:VA does have de facto guidelines on what to add. If you want more people to participate I would encourage you to give them some direction on said guidelines. The Blue Rider 19:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 16#Specifying that RfCs should not be listed on AfDs, the same rational applies here. RfC for meta proposals that will affect the Wikipedia as a whole, like the Vital topicon would be appropriate but this is not. I will remove the RfC. The Blue Rider 19:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@The Blue Rider: I don't see it here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#What_not_to_use_the_RfC_process_for. Bogazicili (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not an exhaustive list, just the most common places to not RfC. The Blue Rider 19:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's consensus that this page can't have RfC's. Bogazicili (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

If you disagree then start a discussion on the main WP:VA's talk page. Templating me for "editing" Arab–Israeli conflict is out of line, drop it. The Blue Rider 19:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

My understanding of Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict is that it includes discussions such as this: edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content") Bogazicili (talk) 19:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction

Estimated 5 million deaths.(page 336, author: Karl Kaser (historian))

Paul Mojzes also called some of these "unrecognized genocide" [2] p. 25

Up to a third of population of modern-day Turkey has ancestry from these Turkish and other Muslim refugees. p. 17 Bogazicili (talk) 17:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Bogazicili (talk) 17:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems pretty important, and it has received a high importance rating from several WikiProjects. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Pacification of Algeria

Also known as Algerian genocide [3]

From the Pacification of Algeria article: Out of an estimated population of 3 million, between 500,000 and 1 million Algerians were killed Bogazicili (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Bogazicili (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. We already list French conquest of Algeria  5, and the two interwikis that this article has makes me skeptical to believe it's important outside of the central article. There's not even an article on this topic in Arabic. But at the same time, genocides have historically been neglected by the masses (and that's generally what allows them to happen in the first place), so maybe my mind could be changed. λ NegativeMP1 22:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Years of Lead (Italy)

One of the largest and longest periods of political conflict in Europe since WW2, if we are listing individual post-9/11 European terror attacks here, then this definitely needs to be listed.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Reorganization of Geography section discussion

This might take some work in other sections but starting here. Cartography is currently listed under the physical geography section, which is odd. Human geography also makes extensive use of cartography, and it seems it was thrown in there because we didn't know where to put it. We should try to create an organizational hierarchy that mirrors how geography is organized in literature. There are a few options, and you can read more on the Geography page. The two I'd recommend are the Four traditions of geography (a page I created, full disclosure), or the branch model of human geography, physical geography, and technical geography. Under the branch model, cartography is under technical geography. Under the four traditions, it would likely fit in the "spatial tradition." I would ideally want to use the branch model, but will create a discussion here about how to proceed with this broad reorganization.

Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 07:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Geography/Basics was added under Physical geography simply, because it was too small to be exist on its own. We can re-organize surely, if a better structure would be worth the effort. Have you considered making a proposition for a more detailed plan? Makkool (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush

A Soviet-era genocide, the most lethal of the genocides that fall under Population transfer in the Soviet Union  4. 200,000 people died, 400,000 according to some sources. 32 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Bogazicili (talk) 11:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Ethiopian–Adal War

Major war in the region, a proxy war involving several major empires which lasted nearly 14 years. African pre-colonial history is underrepresented, and this war certainly seems important enough to include. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Somalia and Top-Importance for WikiProject Ethiopia and WikiProject Africa.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Bogazicili (talk) 11:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Continental Europe

Major geographical region and term. Rated Top-Importance in Wikiproject Geography.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 21:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough to include. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
3. 🍋‍🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
4. _pbp 02:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. As a geographer I'm torn on this. I don't actually believe in the myth of a European Continent, and think the region is a cultural gradient without a hard boundary, and that geologically Europe is a Peninusla. The term has historical and political significance, but I'd rather another article be included. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap 2022 Kazakh unrest  5 with Kazakh famine of 1930–1933

Similar to Holodomor  4 but more important than 2022 Kazakh unrest  5

Support

1. As nominator Bogazicili (talk) 11:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. FWIW we already list Soviet famine of 1930–1933  5 Iostn (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That should be level 4 then. Holodomar and Kazakh famine of 1930–1933 should be level 5. Bogazicili (talk) 17:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Burundian Civil War

A major war in the region lasting from 1993 to 2005, with a death count of over 300,000. Rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Africa and WikiProject Burundi.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add 2007 Greensburg tornado

Large, devastating tornado, the subject of numerous studies. Currently one of only nine EF5 tornadoes to ever touch down worldwide, wiped Greensburg, Kansas (a city of 1,300) off the map, 95% of the city was destroyed. Second-widest in Kansas history, deadliest in the history of Kiowa and Comanche counties, and one of the costliest, inflicting $250 million (2007 USD) in damages to both counties. One of its biggest claims to fame is being the first EF5-rated tornado to ever touch down, a milestone in tornado history. Also planning on nominating 2013 El Reno tornado, but that's for another discussion.

Support

1. As nom. E_F⁵ 16:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Yellow Turban Rebellion

Sometimes viewed as the single largest peasant revolt in antiquity. It contributed significantly to the fall of the Han Dynasty, leading to the Three Kingdoms period.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sino-French War

An important colonial war that led to the creation of French Indochina  4.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss