Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Remove Jamestown, Saint Helena

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I fail to see why this city is vital at this level compared to Saint Helena.

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:27, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. If we’re doing it for Oceania, we may as well do it elsewhere. Just don’t touch Willemstad. ABC islands are V4, and it is an important city in Jewish history. I don’t wanna go on my whole rant about Willemstad again, just go to Archive 17. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Interesting layout though! J947 ‡ ^edits 02:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
4. pbp 20:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
6. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:51, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Glasnost

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Pretty important concept in late Soviet history.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 14:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Conditional support if we have quota given the point Totalibe makes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak support. J947 ‡ ^edits 08:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Important concept for the Soviet Union, it ultimately led to its dissolution. The Blue Rider 10:36, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Rather similar to Perestroika  5, though. Totalibe (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Longyearbyen, Bear Island (Svalbard), and Nordaustlandet

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There are currently 5 articles listed on Svalbard: Svalbard  4, Longyearbyen  5, Spitsbergen  5, Bear Island (Svalbard), and Nordaustlandet. I contend that that's three too many. The main island and the archipelago is enough IMO. (I was originally going to propose to remove Spitsbergen rather than Longyearbyen, as the latter has almost all of the archipelago's 3,000 population, but decided this was the better way to go.)

Support all

1. As nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 08:18, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support. None is vital to world history or anything else. Sparesely populated regions (islands). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Mixed

1. Remove Bear Island (Svalbard), and Nordaustlandet per nom. Not sure whether to keep LYB or SBG, so not voting on those. starship.paint (RUN) 07:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support removal of Bear Island and Nordaustlandet, oppose Longyearbyen but would support removing Spitsbergen. Spitsbergen is redundant enough to Svalbard that it is an alternative name for the archipelago. CMD (talk) 12:01, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose all

Discussion

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Add Megacity

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It’s up there compared to Metropolis  5. Interstellarity (talk) 10:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 10:46, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Megacity is very much a distinct concept (a very large city with 10 million+ in population vs a city, which may be much smaller in population, and the area around it in which it exerts significant influence) Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Weak support if there is quota space. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:09, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
4. -- Respublik (talk) 23:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. weak support.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:21, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think Metropolis is sufficient. J947 ‡ ^edits 07:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

I wonder if those topics shouldn't be merged. Can anyone explain to me the difference? Otherwise I'll likely oppose having two conceptually identical entries here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Slightly different things. Megacity is just a big city, while Metropolis is a big city and its immediate surrounds. Meanwhile, Megalopolis is a different thing entirely... J947 ‡ ^edits 07:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Piotrus here, I'm not seeing clear distinctions between the three topics. I could conceive semantic distinctions, but not ones that I believe reflect fuzzy real world use or that would be in any way clear to apply on the ground. CMD (talk) 02:03, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Mata Utu

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Per rationale for St. Pierre above pbp 00:45, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 00:45, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 16:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Barely 1000 people, not significant. starship.paint (RUN) 02:38, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. It's enough to list Wallis and Futuna at VA5. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:44, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Alice Springs

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Alice Springs is not vital when we want less cities in Oceania, not more. The Northern Territory only has a quarter million people, so it should only have Darwin. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Nah I think Alice passes the bar. Really is slap in the middle of the desert. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Alice Springs is the largest settlement in central Australia, and speaking as someone from the UK, its rare for a town with 20,000 people to still have name recognition on the other side of the world. Thinking of this solely in terms of the overall NT population is a misleading way to think when it only has two anyway and its far away from and in a completely different region to Darwin, which is on the coast (the far-inland part of the outback also overlapping with Western and South Australia, for example). Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per Totalibe. I'd also put Fairbanks and Juneau in the same category. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Under 2 million Australians per city. An eighth of a million Territorians per city. Sometimes, at this level and in this situation, geographical entries are not vital. To cover the population issue, I have proposed Geelong below to cover the population issue in Victoria, which has 7m people and one city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Tauranga and Lower Hutt

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Depending on whether the proposal above passes or fails, these might be good additions since they are over 100,000 people in population. If the proposal above fails, then I would support these two, but if it passes, I would oppose the proposal. I'm nominating this since I feel it is worth discussing. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

1. Lower Hutt is covered by Wellington; Tauranga is covered by Bay of Plenty. If addition of an NZ city is warranted (and it isn't IMO) then the additions would be, in order, Tauranga then Nelson then South Auckland then Napier / Palmerston North then Rotorua (I could and probably will change my mind on this, but I'm confident that the Hutt isn't up there).
   I strongly recommend that if people propose changes to the NZ articles listed they consult me first as the only Kiwi regular here atm – even if I don't agree with the changes I will at least give a pointer on what the best removals and additions are. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

   @J947: I'm glad we have a Kiwi here. It's always nice to edit with people that are from other countries. Your opinion is valued as much as mine and I look forward to working with you. Interstellarity (talk) 00:58, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

2. Per my comment in the proposal above. No need for swaps or replacement, reduce quota. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 06:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Strong oppose per above, NZ is perfectly represented as is. Vileplume (talk) 01:56, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Swap Saint John, New Brunswick with Moncton

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Moncton is currently the largest city in New Brunswick. It also allows us to have more linguistic diversity, but I’m not sure if that makes it any more vital. New Brunswick only really needs one city with its population of only 800k, and I’m not sure if it should be Fredericton or Moncton, but we’ll keep it with two for now. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. WP:TOOSOON. Saint John seems too historic to be cast aside so quickly.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 09:20, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Saint John is more historically relevant than Moncton, and is quite important in the history of Canada. Curbon7 (talk) 21:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 06:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Magnitogorsk

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The Urals seem underrepresented with only three cities, and this city has a unique status of being one of few planned socialist realist settlements. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Population of over 400k Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Seems pretty important. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Greek genocide

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The systematic killing of 300,000–900,000 Christian Ottoman Greeks during World War I and its aftermath. Perhaps the deadliest mass casualty event of the modern era with an unambiguous label that's currently not listed. I should note that the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey of 1923 is Lv5, but I'd argue this is independently notable regardless.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 20:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Anadyr

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This city seems like one of the weakest on the list and the weakest in the Russian Far East. Only vital for its location as the easternmost Russian settlement with town status. Not very historically important either, as it peaked at 17k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 16:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
3. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Weak support; Chukotka Autonomous Okrug is enough. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Lake Placid, New York

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Doesn’t compare in vitality to the cities we already list for New York. In fact, I would only support listing a city under 10,000 if there are special circumstances surrounding their vitality. This one doesn’t make the cut. Interstellarity (talk) 21:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Absolutely. What significance does this “city” have? No statistical area, no settlements in the COUNTY have a population anywhere near 5k, nothing vital about it. Utica is the far superior city in the region. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

   Utica and Lake Placid aren't necessarily in the same region and there's more to vitality than population pbp 19:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

3. We list the Olympics it has hosted. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
4. I am not convicted that hosting Olympics is sufficient, and we list those events. Notability is not inherited, and neither should be vitality. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Not convinced about the Olympics. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:47, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Not getting the opposers' rational. The Blue Rider 19:37, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Sloppy nom. Nominator didn't do due diligence on this one pbp 19:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak oppose A town with a population of 2,000 that manages to host the Winter Olympics along with numerous other major worldwide sporting events seems like "special circumstances" to me. The main caveat I have is that it possibly belongs under "non-city settlements". Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose-punches above its weight in terms of vitality.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose - there is more to vitality than population and hosting a globally known and cherished sporting event twice is one such exception imo. They were also the first non-European location to host the Winter Olympics and were the site of the Miracle on Ice  5. I would also want to add St. Moritz. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:15, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

   Six Swiss cities is probably sufficient. Vileplume (talk) 22:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Hosted the Olympics twice, but that is basically the only thing making this town important. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:55, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. I would like to oppose based on 2x Winter Olympics host, but the other two 2x hosts are not being given a free ride. Innsbruck is enough of a city to be VA and St. Moritz is like Lake Placid and not VA. If both had been VA, I would have opposed. To oppose would mean I should want to push for St. Moritz. I'll let this go unless another argument arises in opposition.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   I think St. Moritz probably belongs here too actually. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   I think it's less vital than Lucerne. One with no urban agglomeration vs. one of 226k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

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Swap Winterthur for Lucerne

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Since Lucerne was mentioned a couple of times, I'd argue it makes sense to swap Winterthur for it. Winterthur is described in the article simply as a satellite city of Zurich, and its population of 110k is well below the 200k or so that seems to be a common threshold for cities here. The population of Lucerne proper is "technically" 82k, but the urban area totals around 220k, whereas Winterthur is simply part of another city's urban area. In terms of other forms of importance, Winterthur does appear to have a certain amount f relevance to the economy and technology, but then, so does Zurich. Lucerne on the other hand is the main hub for central Switzerland.

Support

1. As nom Totalibe (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support per nom (although we do already list Lake Lucerne  5). J947 ‡ ^edits 23:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
5. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:37, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
7. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:27, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Black Monday (1987)

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This was global and seems to be of similar import to Panic of 1819  5, Panic of 1873  5, Panic of 1893  5, Panic of 1907  5, Wall Street Crash of 1929  4

Support

1. As nom. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Important and well-known economic crisis. The Blue Rider 20:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. This was “the recession that wasn’t” and is a standard textbook example of how to prevent financial crisis from turning into widespread economic downturns and affecting the “real” economy. Volunteer Marek 09:01, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

1. Economic history is important, but was this that important? Ping User:Volunteer Marek, maybe you'll have some fun looking at economic history at vital levels? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

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Archived 2020 consensus to Remove Fort Lauderdale, Florida

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At 01:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC), User:TimothyBlue posted this discussion. It achieved consensus with a 3–1 vote, but was archived without being enacted. Original discussants were the nominator as well as User:Purplebackpack89, User:Rreagan007 and User:Feminist.

Support

1. Not vital by any metric, not even demographics. The Blue Rider 12:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. pbp 01:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I don't truly consider Fort Lauderdale a suburb of Miami. The relationship is more akin to Minnesota's Twin Cities. I'm not convinced we should remove Fort Lauderdale just because we have Miami. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per my 2020 oppose, and per Presidentman. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Fort Lauderdale is definitely vital. It is an extremely popular tourist destination in its own right (as evidenced by the fact that it has its own airport) and has a pretty distinct presence independent from Miami. I'm all for reducing the number of cities we include in the same metropolitan area (like I'm aboard with removing Arlington, Texas) but Fort Lauderdale is a pretty stand-alone city that is coincidentally in the same area as Miami (similar to how Oakland, California and San Francisco are both distinct and vital in their own right even though they are literally a bridge apart). Aurangzebra (talk) 10:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Broward County is certainly vital, but we don't list any suburbs of Chicago or Houston. I'm also considering proposing the addition of Cape Coral. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

@TonyTheTiger: I imagine you support? J947 ‡ ^edits 22:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

• no. This is level 5. It easily passes, IMO.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

  Ah ok, fair enough. J947 ‡ ^edits 04:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Perhaps we could replace it with Hialeah? That's the second biggest city in the Miami metro, not Fort Lauderdale Kevinishere15 (talk) 00:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

  I’d prefer not to list multiple cities in the same county at this level. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

  Does Hialeah have an international airport. I am flying FLL-ORD in May.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:16, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Viti Levu

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Viti Levu  5, Fiji's main island, is an odd omission – no less because the much less important Vanua Levu  5 is already listed.

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:08, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Fiji's main island, home to the capital and most of the population. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:03, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Portuguese Macau

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Per this discussion (@The Blue Rider:).

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Thank you! It was the first colony in China and the last colony in Asia! The Blue Rider 00:13, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Few hundred years of history, much more than American or Canadian proto-colonies we list by dozens... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:29, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Makes sense. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Too many Civil War battles

There are twenty-two Civil War battles. For a war that lasted four years and was almost exclusively fought in a single country, that’s too many. There are only eight battles of the World War One Western front, which had a lot more parties involved and claimed 3x as many lives. A dozen seems more right-sized pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support removing all entries listed here unless I comment otherwise, feel free to copy my signature to relevant sections. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove Battle of Wilson’s Creek

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Definitely not among the 10 most strategically significant Civil War battles. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom . - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Battle of Fort Donelson  5

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Aside of the significance to the career of Ulysses S. Grant, it’s not that significant a battle. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It was one of the first major Union victories of the Civil War, it was a major loss for the Confederates who lost over 12,000 troops, it allowed the Union to reclaim virtually all of Kentucky and much of Tennessee, it opened a major route for invading the South, and it started the career of Ulysses S. Grant  4 as one of the Union's best generals. It is also rated High-Importance by WikiProject Tennessee. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per QJR.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per QJR. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:26, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per QJR. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Battle of Forts Jackson and St. Philip

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The Union campaigns to take New Orleans and the Mississippi River might be significant but this particular battle is not. Only 7 interwikis and fewer than 1,000 casualties. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Battle of Perryville

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A ways down the list of significant Civil War battles, definitely out of the Top 10 pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Not seeing it. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Battle of Fort Pillow

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Definitely not among the 10 most strategically significant. Its significance to war crimes is covered by Nathan Bedford Forrest pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Battle of Mobile Bay

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Definitely not among the 10 most strategically significant Civil War battles. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Swap: Remove Battle of Atlanta, add Sherman's March to the Sea  5

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The Battle of Atlanta was a relatively small engagement in two much larger campaigns. The South literally has complained about Sherman’s March to the Sea for the past 160 years. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removal, neutral on addition. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. The March to the Sea was very important, this one battle was somewhat important but not important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:59, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Swap: Remove Battle of Spotsylvania Court House and Battle of Cold Harbor, add Overland Campaign  5

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Two battles, albeit two bloodbaths, from the same campaign. Grant fought Lee to a draw at Spotsylvania, marched down the road a piece, then fought him at Cold Harbor. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removal, neutral on addition. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Swap Molepolole for Soweto

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Molepolole (population c. 70,000) I think is included for historical reasons, as it seems to be a pre-colonial African village that was a clan capital before later expanding into a larger modern town. I guess that is interesting and suggests regional importance, but it doesn't really carry it much further beyond that. Aside from that, its the third entry listed from Botswana, a country that doesn't even have a population of 3 million people.

Soweto on the other hand is the largest South African township, and essentially served as the "face" of apartheid to much of the world, and remains internationally famous to this day, and played host to many important events of 20th century South African history.

Support

1. Speaking of Southern Africa, Windhoek and Gaborone are really only V5, not V4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:53, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   Yeah those should be demoted, when something like Bangui  4 is only VA5. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

   In fact, I've proposed a change. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Support; Soweto in particular is a glaring omission. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:45, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
5. (Nom, forgot to vote) Totalibe (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Republic of China

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The predecessor of Taiwan  3 ruled by the Kuomintang  5, was a major polity with many important events for the history of China happening during its existance. These events include: 1911 Revolution  4, Northern Expedition (should be added to VT5), Chinese Civil War  4, Second Sino-Japanese War  4, Long March  5, Nanjing Massacre  4, Shanghai Massacre (also should be added), Warlord Era  5, First United Front, Second United Front, First Taiwan Strait Crisis. Was also ruled by very important leaders such as, Sun Yat-sen  4, Chiang Kai-shek  4 and Yuan Shikai  5. The Blue Rider 19:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 19:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Should be V5. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. A major era of the histories of China and Taiwan. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add NIMBY

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A major factor which affects urban planning globally.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:19, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Vileplume (talk) 16:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak support. Respublik (talk) 09:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak support. Does indeed seem to be a global phenomenon but it only seems to be a full-fledged political movement in the US due to the nation's unique emphasis on single-family zoning. Everywhere else, NIMBYs seems to coalesce briefly to address developments that would result in nuisances to the current residents and then disband soon after. These cases don't seem to be VA5-worthy, in the same way that noise regulation isn't. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:37, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
5. weak suppor.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Geelong

Victoria seems extremely under quota with its population of nearly 7 million, with only Melbourne at this level. Additionally, Geelong is one of the few cities to have its own WikiProject, and I think topics with their own WikiProject should be at least Level 4-5. This is part of the reason Donald Trump was added to V4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:11, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Mixed opinions on this one. There is probably space for another one or two Australian cities, but Townsville is significantly more important than Geelong. I'm aware its addition would exacerbate the overrepresentation of Queensland and underrepresentation of Victoria – tricky. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Townsville is in the same general region as Cairns, so if it gets on the list, it’s probably gonna be a swap. SC may be too large, so it may have to stay. Overall, I’m not sure how to handle QLD’s overrepresentation and VIC’s underrepresentation. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Removing Sunshine Coast may actually be a good option on review. It's really on the same tier as importance as Geelong or Central Coast (New South Wales). Alternatively I've long had the impression that Cairns, like Sunshine Coast, is more of a touristy centre than historically/strategically important. Swapping Townsville in for Cairns is another option – though Sunshine Coast might be a better choice for removal. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Queensland probably needs only three cities, and I think Brisbane is a good level 4, Gold Coast should be listed for being the most populous non-capital, and Townsville should also be listed for coverage. Sunshine Coast would be on the list if this level could be approximately 1% of the English Wikipedia’s content, which I would support changing for every 500k milestone. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove Predicted impact of Brexit

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Subtopic of Brexit  5. We can add Impact of Brexit in maybe 5-10 years once the dust settles down and it becomes a scholarly subject.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. How did this even get on the list? QuicoleJR (talk) 22:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:32, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. pbp 22:44, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Brexit is V5, but this subarticle is neither fish nor fowl. Yes, perhaps we can add 'impact of' in a decade or so if this becomes enduring and important enough, but for now one article will do, unless Brexit is elevated to V4. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
6. "Predicted impact of Brexit" is inevitably going to be turn out to be a massive [[WP:CRYSTALBALL|crystal ball article. Agree with nom that we can reassess impact of Brexit later down the line. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Arlington, Texas

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I don't think we need to list three cities from the Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex  5, especially when we already list the metro area itself.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:30, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. There are unrepresented regions of Texas that should have cities listed before Arlington. Killeen, Beaumont, and Lubbock could be listed before this. Vileplume (talk) 21:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

   Killeen is definitely NOT VA5 material, sorry not sorry. You may point to Killeen having a large metropolitan area, but a) that metro area is a collection of several fairly small cities (Killeen, Temple, Belton, what used to be Fort Hood), and b) it got large only recently pbp 15:08, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

   To be fair, Lubbock would probably be the most vital of the three. Second-largest city proper, urban, and metro populations in Western Texas, significantly larger than Amarillo, Abilene, Midland, etc. Vileplume (talk) 15:47, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 10:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Las Vegas Strip  5

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It's distinct enough from Las Vegas  4, and world-famous.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. very iconic Aurangzebra (talk) 10:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Yes, this kind of stuff - world-famous - is vital (and LV is V4). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Would list this before Carson City. Vileplume (talk) 18:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Is the Horseshoe Las Vegas in the infobox? There seem to be 7 photos and 8 hotels listed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

File:Paris Eiffel Tower (8226787281).jpg includes both the Paris Las Vegas and Horseshoe Las Vegas (back when it was known as Bally's Las Vegas). feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Gold standard  5

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A major part of economic history worldwide.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Mfecane

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A major and bloody period during the history of Southern Africa that occured in parallel to colonialism in the Cape. In terms of long-term significance, "The Mfecane is significant in that it saw the formation of new states, institutions, and ethnic identities in southeastern Africa".

Support

1. As nom. Totalibe (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. The article makes some convincing arguments for vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 21:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. "Traditional estimates for the death toll range from 1 million to 2 million". That's significant, sadly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Nzérékoré

Second-largest city in a country that ranks around 75th in area and population. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

200,000 feels small when we've been removing 500,000–population African cities recently (wrongly). See here. Listing regions of Guinea is probably preferable (Nzérékoré Region, Guinée forestière). J947 ‡ ^edits 22:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Pointe-à-Pitre, add Oranjestad, Aruba

Guadeloupe, a French overseas department of 400k, does not need two cities, no matter how large. The capital isn't insignificant, it has an urban area larger than some U.S. state capitals.

I still think Caribbean territiories are underrepresented. After I got Willemstad on the list, the only 100k+ territories in the region that were unrepresented were Aruba and the USVI. Oranjestad is the larger settlement, so I chose it over Charlotte Amalie. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support removal

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support removal Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose removal

Neutral on removal

Support addition

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose addition

Neutral on addition

1. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

General discussion

• @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: The link provided for the addition links to a disambiguation page. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove Santa Ana, California

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Metro LA does not need four cities, and Orange County does not need two cities. Between the two Orange County cities on the list, Anaheim is larger than Santa Ana and is known for Disneyland.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per non Aurangzebra (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Only 13 in CA and a secondary city in its metropolitan area.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:46, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

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Remove Province of Maine

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Covered by Maine, Massachusetts and History of Massachusetts

Support

1. pbp 15:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Berkeley, California, remove Riverside, California

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Proposing a swap here between two California cities. Berkeley, California is one of the rare smaller cities on this list that achieves a level of global recognition. It is well-known in physics for being the home of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and with it, J. Robert Oppenheimer  4, Saul Perlmutter  5, Jennifer Doudna  5, Ernest Lawrence  4 etc. It was also where the Manhattan Project was conceived. At least two elements were discovered there: Californium and Berkelium, the latter of which makes Berkeley one of the only cities in the world whose name is used for an element. It also extremely well-known in computer science and lends its name to the Berkeley Software Distribution which was the basis for Mac's Unix, Berkeley sockets, and the pioneering Berkeley Timesharing System.

Many of these contributions are related in some way to University of California, Berkeley  4 which is already VA4 but Berkeley is nationally and globally known in other ways as well. It was the center of the Free Speech Movement  5 with Mario Savio  5. It was also a focal point of almost every counterculture movement in the 1960s, including the hippie movement and the construction of People's Park in 1969 achieved international attention. Many important writers from that era called Berkeley home for some number of years such as Hunter S. Thompson  4.

Berkeley has more interwikis than Riverside (85 v. 77) and more daily pageviews (926 v. 839). The only thing Riverside has on Berkeley is that it is three times the population. But I can tell you as someone who lives in California that I don't know anything special about Riverside besides the fact there is a university there and Berkeley has even that beat with a more notable university in the same system. I also know for a fact that Berkeley has name recognition outside the United States, particularly in STEM communities thanks to the scientific contributions listed above. I highly doubt most people outside California know Riverside, let alone someone who lives in another country.

As a sidenote: we should consider adding Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory to VA5 regardless of if this passes or not (home to 15 Nobel laureates, connection to Manhattan Project, discovery of multiple elements, major advances in astronomy etc.). According to its wiki article, Berkeley Lab has the greatest research publication impact of any single government laboratory in the world in physical sciences and chemistry, as measured by Nature Index. Using the same metric, the Lab is the second-ranking laboratory in the area of earth and environmental sciences. Any thoughts on what section this should be added to?

Support

1. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:45, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support addition. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   Also support removal. Interstellarity makes a good point regarding how Inland Empire is better known than Riverside. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:21, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

3. Support addition only. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support addition. J947 ‡ ^edits 19:43, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support addition only. Totalibe (talk) 23:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Support both the addition and removal, with the removal being swapped for Inland Empire. The metro area is more likely to known than the actual core city of it. Interstellarity (talk) 19:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
7. Support; well-argued by the nominator. The Blue Rider 20:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
8. Support addition.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal: The Inland Empire has over four million people and deserves representation on this list pbp 13:10, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose removal only. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose removal, although would seriously consider swap with Inland Empire. J947 ‡ ^edits 19:43, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Regarding whether to remove Riverside, I think it's at least arguable for the principal city of the US's 12th-largest metropolitan statistical area to be one of the ~150 most important cities in the US (roughly the current number of American cities we have at VA5). I'll propose the removal of another Californian city below. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   Yea that's fair. I was debating between Riverside and Santa Ana when I was writing this post but Santa Ana is just as good. Aurangzebra (talk) 18:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add 18th century

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Support

1. nom - TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Sure, since I started the ball rolling. Feel free to copy my support for the other modern centuries listed below (ping User:TonyTheTiger). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add 17th century

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Support

1. nom - TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Adding User:Piotrus per his 18th century vote at 11:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add 16th century

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• This takes us back to the implementation of the Gregorian calendar.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. nom - TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. All centuries of the modern era Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Adding User:Piotrus per his 18th century vote at 11:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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History additions

As I am looking into this section, some stuff that I'd like to add. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Add History of Silesia

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We list a lot of history European regions. Many under individual countries. This seems like a major omission. Perhaps because it has a shared history between several countries, or perhaps because Poland's section is a mess compared to others (all entries in it need to be moved to history by period, see comments in the sectionb below). Anyway, this is one of the three Central/Eastern European major regions that is missing, and IMHO should be added, since we list dozens of similar regions around the world. Note: if added, this should not be under Poland, but general for Europe, since this and the other two regions I propose below have history and borders split between various countries. Also, note that the three regions (Silesia, Galicia (Eastern Europe) and Pomerania, currently listed under Poland, should be moved to the geography section. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support per nom, weakly. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add History of Galicia (Eastern Europe)

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See above - identical rationale to Silesia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Vital region with a rich history. The Blue Rider 00:43, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add History of Pomerania

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See above - identical rationale to Silesia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:46, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 18:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Soviet invasion of Poland

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Major incident related to the beginning of WWII. 47 interwikis. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact

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Even more significant incident related to the above. 84 interwikis. We list many historical events much less significant than this, IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Wow that it was not there! Maybe, it should even go to VA4. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 15:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Seems pretty obvious. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Resistance during World War II

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Seems like a major WWII topic that is missing from our list here. Yes, just 29 interwikis, but pretty significant, both historically and curturally. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:05, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:50, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add World War II casualties

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Major topic, parent to The Holocaust, 36 interwikis. Considering that The Holocaust (6m deaths) gets 13 articles at V5 (including the Romani Holocaust with ~150k deaths), I think we also should consider adding World War II casualties of the Soviet Union (~25m) and World War II casualties of Poland (also at 6m). China should be here too but I don't think we have a dedicated article to that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Yeah. J947 ‡ ^edits 08:21, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
6. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:51, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add World War II casualties of the Soviet Union

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See my comment above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Support, viable per impact Respublik (talk) 15:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Broad articles should not be overtly prioritised; even though this topic is clearly more important than many articles we list, it's less coherent and hence an encyclopaedia article on it is less important. J947 ‡ ^edits 08:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:51, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per J947. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add World War II casualties of Poland

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See my comment above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Broad articles should not be overtly prioritised; even though this topic is clearly more important than many articles we list, it's less coherent and hence an encyclopaedia article on it is less important. J947 ‡ ^edits 08:24, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Rescue of Jews during the Holocaust

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We list a dozen or so articles related to The Holocaust, all quite depressing. It is human nature to focus on the negatives, I guess. This would be a good counterbalance, and arguably, as important subtopic of this as many of the other articles we list. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
3. I am shocked that this isn't listed already. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
4. --Thi (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 23:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
6. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
7. Yep this deserves a good encyclopaedia article. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Martial law under Ferdinand Marcos

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I previously proposed this for Level 4, where it was suggested I re-propose it here, given "Human rights abuses of the Marcos dictatorship" might be too specific.

This is an article that should more properly be named the "Marcos dictatorship" (which is a redirect) but is not named that due to media coverage consensus issues and sensitivities. However, it is a significant period in Philippine history on par with the Philippine Revolution, or at least the Japanese Occupation of the Philippines during World War II. I am new to Vital Articles but by my estimate, that feels like a level 5. -- Chieharumachi (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Chieharumachi (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, for the size of the country, there aren't many history articles for the Philippines. If an article needs to be swapped out, I'm not sure I'd consider Operation Enduring Freedom – Philippines a Level 5 article. Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

   As a swap for OEF-P, I would propose adding Moro conflict instead, which is similar but with a much larger scope. Iostn (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Support Iostn (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support This is a pretty significant chunk of Philippine history, one that has lasting scars up to today. -Object404 (talk) 16:49, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @Chieharumachi: I've moved this proposal from the main VA5 talk page to the History one. It might get more feedback here. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:23, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Rason

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Special city, ice-free port, and important for business between China, Russia, and North Korea. It's also close to the China–NK–Russia border. toobigtokale (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom toobigtokale (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak conditional support if there is quota to fill. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Very important city economically for North Korea. The Blue Rider 15:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
5. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume (talk) 22:26, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

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Remove Iqaluit

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Very low population (7.4k) with a relatively short history, having only been designated capital of its territory in 1999. Consider that we removed Fairbanks, another Arctic city with a much larger (95k metro) population.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Canadian territorial capitals should be removed and Fredericton should be swapped with Moncton. Vileplume (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. This city is tiny. No more important than the recently-removed Montpelier, Vermont. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap: remove Riverside, California, add Inland Empire  5

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In the #Add Berkeley, California, remove Riverside, California discussion I cast doubt on the removal of Riverside, because I think the 12th-most-populated metro area in the US should have representation. However, I agree with Aurangzebra (OP of the Berkeley discussion) that I highly doubt most people outside California know Riverside, let alone someone who lives in another country. The article on Inland Empire better represents the entire region than an article on one of its cities.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:23, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Interstellarity (talk) 13:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Pinging @Interstellarity, Purplebackpack89, and J947: as other editors who mentioned the issue of Inland Empire representation in the Berkeley discussion. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:51, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Hawaiian Islands removals

These islands don't have much significance compared to the rest of the islands. I think listing Kauai, Oahu, Maui, and Hawaii (island) is sufficient to cover the islands. Interstellarity (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Kahoʻolawe

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Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:20, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Sure, more niche US locations that need to go to make room for something more relevant to world-history or geography. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. At this level we list most islands that aren't dependent on a mainland, to put it that way. Looking at the wider islands list is important here. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Midway Atoll

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Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. As Piotr notes below, Battle of Midway  5 is already listed. I think that's sufficient. The atoll doesn't have much notability indpendent thereof. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per above. Battle article is enough. starship.paint (RUN) 06:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Aurangzebra Strong oppose. Major location during the Pacific theater of WW2 and there was a crucial battle that took place there. In general, it is a pretty important location in American military history. 7:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• But Battle of Midway  5 is vital. Is the location vital? I am not convinced. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Fair point. My personal philosophy is that we should keep geographic regions that are historically significant. I think this is the philosophy implicit in some of these choices e.g. we have both Bikini Atoll  5 which is solely significant because of the nuclear testing and Nuclear testing at Bikini Atoll  5. Also, there are so many other islands less significant than Midway Atoll in every sense (historical, geographic, demographic etc.) such as Baker Island  5 and Jarvis Island  5 that we should discuss before we discuss this one. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

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Niihau

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Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Sure, more niche US locations that need to go to make room for something more relevant to world-history or geography. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. WIth the population of this Island below 100, I can't really stand behind this one like I can the other more-populous islands being considered.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

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Lanai

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Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Sure, more niche US locations that need to go to make room for something more relevant to world-history or geography. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think the 7 big Island which are populated should be kept.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger. The Blue Rider 01:14, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Molokai

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Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Sure, more niche US locations that need to go to make room for something more relevant to world-history or geography. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think the 7 big Island which are populated should be kept.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:18, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger. The Blue Rider 01:14, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Allies of World War II

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Axis powers are listed on Level 5, but not the Allied. A major omission. --Makkool (talk) 09:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator --Makkool (talk) 09:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Actually, we do have it, you can use template:VA link to check: Allies of World War II  5--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I did check it, but I didn't find it. It was hidden under the "show" link. Whoops! --Makkool (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Plague of Justinian

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One the the deadliest plagues or epidemics in all human history, between 15 million and possibly over 100 million deaths attributed to it. Huge impact on the history, direction and life in the Byzantine Empire, and most of Europe, Mediterranean and Middle East. Contemplated suggesting at level 4 a while back, but never did, although it had passing mention in discussions there.

Support

1. Support as nom.  Carlwev  18:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

• @Carlwev: User:Tabu Makiadi already proposed this above. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove History of Chinese Americans, History of Filipino Americans, and History of Japanese Americans

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Asian Americans isn’t even V5, so it doesn’t make sense to be listing any of these articles at this level. Our section on the history of U.S. demographic groups should also be merged with the section on the history of ethnic groups. Vileplume (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Support all

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak Support Japanese, Support the rest, but there could be an argument to add Asian Americans to the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:22, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, though Asian Americans is plausibly VA5. feminist🚰 (talk) 07:36, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support level 6 at best. Gizza (talk) 09:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose all

Neutral on all

Mixed

General discussion

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Remove counties of Ireland

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Ireland (pop. 7.2M including Northern Ireland) is overrepresented in the Countries section, with 41 articles currently listed at Level 5 or above.

Support

1. Remove all counties of Ireland except County Donegal. County Donegal has the highest number of page views of all Irish counties, at 835 daily views last year. The rest can be removed. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support all except Dublin, as the most populous county. Vileplume (talk) 18:33, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

   County Dublin is not currently listed. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

   Then remove all. Would take second-level divisions of France or Germany over them any day. Vileplume (talk) 20:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Support removing all. Artificial subdivisions are rarel vital, would support more such removals. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Remove all per Piotrus. The four provinces are sufficient. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• We list all of the first-level subdivisions of many European countries. I'm not sure if we should just single out Ireland for removal. Maybe there should be a broader conversation about listing subdivisions. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:12, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

  Although they are not administrative divisions, we list all four provinces of Ireland, and I think they should continue to be listed. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with Presidentman that a more holistic discussion is needed. If Ireland is reduced to 4 provinces, what's the justification for keeping 26 cantons of Switzerland, a country with 1.8 times the population and 40% smaller in area? 19 Hungarian counties is also excessive, a similar number of subdivisions to France and Italy, and more than Germany. Gizza (talk) 09:38, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Surgut

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The Urals seem underrepresented with only three cities, and this is by far the largest city in the autonomous okrugs. Speaking of autonomous okrugs, I’d also support a swap between Anadyr and Magadan, as we already have enough coverage of Chukotka at this level and Magadan has 6-7 times the population of Anadyr. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Population close to 400k Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   Significantly larger now; as one of Russia's emerging cities, its population is estimated to be around 411k in 2024. Vileplume (talk) 22:22, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Surgut's economy is tied to oil production (the city is known as "The Oil Capital of Russia") and natural gas processing. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
4. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

1. We need neither Anadyr nor Magadan. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   If anything, Chita comes before both, but overall, the region does not need any more cities. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Newport, Rhode Island

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Considering we don’t list summer vacation destinations like Block Island, I don’t think it makes sense to keep this one. Interstellarity (talk) 22:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Rhode Island only deserves Providence. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:33, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. I've read the comments above and I don't see that significant history. Niche local American significance. Feel free to tell me more if you think I am wrong. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

   What exactly is your rationale for what and who is notable? Is having a lot of people right this second the only measure of importance? pbp 00:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

4. Not convinced that the history alone justifies its inclusion. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:23, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Newport has significant history (see 2nd para).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Historically important. There was one time where Newport had one of the largest concentrations of power brokers in the entire world. Also was where the U.S. Opens in both golf and tennis began. pbp 19:58, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Significant history, summering location for a bunch of VA5 power brokers at the turn of the 19th century, and iconic Gilded Age mansions. Would also want to add Martha's Vineyard for similar reasons as the summer spot for a who's who of the 21st century global elite. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Unlike some people above, I can see the historical significance. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Besides what everyone else said, it also hosts the Newport Jazz and Folk Festivals. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Springfield, Missouri

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Missouri most certainly deserves a third city, and Springfield is its third largest in terms of city proper and metro area, and by urban area when excluding Fayetteville, AR. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:09, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'd rather see Independence, Missouri added because of its historical significance along many dimensions, including the westward expansion of the United States.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

   KCMO is only V5, and we should have a rule of thumb that suburbs/satellite cities should be at least one level lower than the cities they are subordinated to. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Per TonyTheTiger. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 16:03, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Swap Spiegel affair for Red Army Faction

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The Spiegel affair seems like a very strange pick here, its long-term historical significance seems to be limited to demonstrating that the Christian Democrats were not going to be able to restrict press freedom in the post-war BRD to a significant degree, which I suppose is noteworthy to an extent, but it doesn't really seem impactful as it was more of a demonstration that what they attempted to do could not be done under the state's legal framework (for example, it didn't even lead to them losing power). The Red Army Faction was one of the most well-known left-wing militant groups to appear during the post-war period, and continues to loom large in culture and in the German popular imagination (note the extensive "pop culture" section). Their rise is very much tied-up with the counterculture and global upheavals of the late 1960s, and specifically to Germany, to feelings of collective responsibility for the Nazis and anger at the generation who had allowed their crimes to take place.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Agreed, the latter is more known for German history (also, 3x interwikis). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove South African metropolitan municipalities

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Their core cities cover them well. I'd rather list first-level subdivisions from the DRC, Kenya, Tanzania, Algeria, Sudan, etc. Vileplume (talk) 22:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Strong support Buffalo City, Ekurhuleni, and Mangaung, support the rest as nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. They are not first-level subdivisions, they have no important history separate to the central cities, and most have existed for less than 30 years. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom and QJR. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 01:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 21:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

• @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: Can you please provide links to all of the affected articles? QuicoleJR (talk) 00:20, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  1. Buffalo City Metropolitan Municipality
  2. City of Cape Town
  3. City of Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality
  4. City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality
  5. City of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality
  6. EThekwini Metropolitan Municipality
  7. Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality
  8. Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan Municipality

  Vileplume (talk) 00:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove History of Prince Edward Island

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Since we have removed several U.S. state histories, I do not think that Canadian province histories are above consideration. Prince Edward Island  5 is only VA5, and its history was not that important. Also, it only has three interwikis, if you care about that.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Historical trivia, support per nom. The Blue Rider 19:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Strong support; we should focus more on Canada's overrepresentation. Vileplume (talk) 22:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Iostn (talk) 21:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Ngerulmud

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Palau only warrants one city at this level with its population of under 20k. In this case, it’s not the current capital without any permanent population in its boundaries, but the former capital and current largest city, Koror (city)  5. Bern  5 and Naypyidaw  5 aren’t even V4, and we recently demoted Canberra  5 and Wellington  5 to V5. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:05, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak Support. Agree Palau only needs one but unsure which one pbp 20:44, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

   Capital cities of this size are not vital at this level. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Koror is more important. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Population not recorded but estimates at ~300. This has no place anywhere near vital list. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

   And that’s just Melekeok State, most of which live in the town of the same name. For this reason, when I was first learning national capitals when I was six, I learned that Melekeok was the capital of Palau. Vileplume (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

5. Meh. We don't even have an article for Government of Palau, which is the only reason why Ngerulmud is of any significance. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Only 1.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support per above. Population > 400 is miniscule. starship.paint (RUN) 06:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As the national capital of an internationally recognized sovereign state. Totalibe (talk) 01:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. per Totalibe Aurangzebra (talk) 07:30, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
3. A capital thus it has inherent vitality. The Blue Rider 11:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per above. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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North Korean cities

North Korea of course is a very isolationist state so most of its cities outside of Pyongyang are not well-known internationally. That said I don't think it should be discounted and 4 cities in a country of ~26 million is definitely underrepresentation, especially given that the urbanization rate isn't that low. Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I added Nampo below; I feel like Special cities of North Korea is useful for our purposes. Pyongyang  4, Rason  5, Nampo  5, and Kaesong  5 are the four Special Cities in the country. toobigtokale (talk) 03:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I know you already removed the Nampo suggestion as its already listed, but it may be worth opening one for Rason since somebody also mentioned it. Totalibe (talk) 09:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Added. toobigtokale (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Kaesong

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If only one city is added, I would say this is the one. While it isn't the largest city proposed here by population, it has a special political and economic significance due to the fact that during the initial partition of Korea, it was south of the border, but by the time the Korean War had finished and after shifting in control several times, it was north of the DMZ. Today, it is home to the Kaesong Industrial Region which is a special joint region for collaborative economic activity with the South formed in the early 2000s, which makes it a very geopolitically important place.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 21:24, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
3. East Asia is under quota. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 13:06, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Fair enough. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

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Add Wonsan

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An important port and naval base that was important both historically and at present. The port was opened to foreign trade by Japanese forces in 1880, which is early on in the history of Japanese dominance and later direct colonial rule of Korea, and was under blockade for most of the Korean War. The article further details increased development that has been ongoing in recent times.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak conditional support if there is quota to fill. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak support. It seems to be the subject of a significant renovation since the mid-2010s. toobigtokale (talk) 03:58, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 06:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

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Add Sinuiju

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A major settlement directly on the Chinese border, which is a major centre for trade and transit between the two countries. You could argue it plays a similar role to Kaesong in that it is a hub for economic activity with its neighbour, although plans to introduce a special economic area like the one in Kaesong fell through. Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak conditional support if there is quota to fill. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak support; it's seen as a gateway city (even though I think it's not really open to Chinese tourists) between China and North Korea. toobigtokale (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 06:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Would prefer to add Rason over this one. The Blue Rider 21:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

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American history cleanup 1815-1945

There are quite a few rather insignificant topics here, and at least a couple that are missing. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support removing all entries listed here unless I comment otherwise, feel free to copy my signature to relevant sections. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:25, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Great Migration (African American)  5

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One of the more significant demographic trends. Balanced out by several removals below pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:18, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove 1937 Fox vault fire

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Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Only important to archival for the most part. Totalibe (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
3. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Great Sioux War of 1876

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This is one of the rare times the battle, specifically the Battle of the Little Bighorn  5 (“Custer’s Last Stand”), is more significant or well-known than the war. The GSW has 16 interwikis and BLB has 47. On both sides combined, resulted in fewer than 1,000 killed pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. As it stands, its squeezed between both Battle of the Little Bighorn  5 and Sioux Wars  5. Totalibe (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Lynching of Jesse Washington  5

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A better approach would be broader topics. I would note we do NOT have the lynching of Emmett Till, nor the assassination of Medgar Evars pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It seems we either have the bio or the event for Medgar Evers  5, Emmett Till  5, George Floyd protests  5. Washington is most like Floyd where an event article is appropriate.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
2. First off, the reason we’re not listing the deaths of Evers and Till is because we don’t have separate articles on them. Second, even if you were advocating swapping this article out for either Lynching in the United States or Nadir of American race relations (which you’re not), I think this event is notorious enough to still be on here. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:32, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove LZ 129 Hindenburg

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We don’t need both the ship AND the disaster pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Lindbergh kidnapping  5 and Spirit of St. Louis

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Charles Lindbergh is significant coverage of this topic. History of transatlantic aviation is a better VA5 than a single plane. Also, if we don’t have the Wright Flyer, we probably shouldn’t have the Spirit of St. Louis either pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Spirit of St. Louis, although maybe swap for Wright Flyer since you mentioned it.
4. Support SoSL, Oppose Lk.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removing Spirit of St. Louis, as it's not independently vital of the kidnapping incident. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The Lindbergh kidnapping is definitely important enough, it has a decently sized influence on American law and popular culture. Spirit of St. Louis can go though. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose removing Lindbergh kidnapping
3. Oppose removing Lindbergh kidnapping, per QuicoleJr. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Ostend Manifesto

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TRIVIA. If the U.S. had actually bought Cuba, or if the Spanish-American War had occurred in the 1850s instead of the 1890s, we might have something here. Since we didn’t, I don’t think VA5 is appropriate. 15 interwikis, which isn’t that much for a VA5 pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Not really seeing how this was important to U.S. history, Cuban history, or world history. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Tariff of 1816

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Ancillary to American System (economic plan). Only has ONE interwiki link pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:26, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Seems significant.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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