Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/Society/Archive 4

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Add Fast fashion

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Fast fashion has revolutionized the fashion industry, making fashion trends accessible to price-conscious consumers and lifting millions of women in Asia out of poverty. Suggest placing this under Textile manufacturing.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:11, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Surely. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:34, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Respublik (talk) 17:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Pachinko

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Per our Pachinko article: As of 2015, Japan's pachinko market generates more gambling revenue than that of Macau, Las Vegas, and Singapore combined.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:47, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oh wow, very economically vital in that case. The Blue Rider 01:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Given that slot machine is VA4 (which is mad IMO). J947 ‡ ^edits 02:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:57, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap Taobao with Meituan

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Taobao is a subsidiary of Alibaba Group which we list at V4. Meituan is the largest food delivery company in China and the third-largest publicly traded Internet company from China behind Tencent (V5) and Alibaba (V4).

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:11, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

   Support addition only upon further consideration because Taobao is quite significant compared to many other articles we list under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Technology#Specific websites and other computing services. I can't formally withdraw my "remove Taobao" nomination given that others have supported it, but I no longer support the removal of Taobao. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 17:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support addition only. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removing Taobao per my comment above. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. I'd prefer to retain Taobao since no argument about being over quota was made, plus sysbias. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Disaster

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Since we added Accident, we should also add this.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:29, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:48, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Obvious common concept that likely should be at V4 too if not higher. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Cash

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A major, if declining, form of Money  3, and the parent topic of Banknote  4 and Coin  4.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Obvious oversight. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:06, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:00, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:05, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:41, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:27, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
7. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:16, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
8. Vileplume (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Reputation  5

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"Reputation is a fundamental instrument of social order, based upon distributed, spontaneous social control." - Both social order and social control are V4 articles, so this would fit V5. --Makkool (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom --Makkool (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:48, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:05, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure. V5 concept at least. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:52, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:55, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
7. Obviously. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove At the Moulin Rouge, The Dance

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Looking at stubs in the specific works of art. This one sports unimpressive just 7 interwikis, and 22 daily views. The painter is Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec  4 which may or may not be too much (he is no Peter Paul Rubens  4 IMHO), but even if one disagrees about the creator's fame and my view that they perhaps should not be V4, there is nothing in the article that tells us why this particular work would be vital. Reading through the bio of the painter it seems that there there are many more famous works of his which are not vital and we we could consider for swap or later addition, ex. At the Moulin Rouge (12 interwikis, 76 daily views). For now I am proposing just a removal, not swap, however, but if someone feels HdTL needs a V5 work, feel free to propose adding AtMR or vote for swap here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
5. I don't see the vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Super Soaker

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"American brand of recreational water gun" with just 2 interwikis and 172 daily views. Another thing that is mildly popular in the US, I assume, but has next to no worldwide recognition (water gun and toy gun are at V5 already, toy gun might warrant V4 but I digress here). This particular band version of water gun is very much not vital. I am reasonably sure we can add something from National Toy Hall of Fame to make up for this and other removal proposed (or just reduce the quota, shrug). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 01:09, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Not really one of the most notable toys ever. SnowFire (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove The Dallas Morning News, add The Times of Israel

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The Dallas Morning News has won a few awards, much like the recently removed Denver Post, but the circulation is not big enough and it is not historically important enough to stay when newspapers aren't that important in modern times and the U.S. has too many newspapers on the list. Meanwhile, The Times of Israel, while more recent, is an online newspaper published in five languages with a readership of over nine million, which is nearly the size of Israel itself. Israel is also currently unrepresented on the newspaper list.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removal, oppose addition - Dallas Morning News is a small outlet, but the newspaper of record of Israel is Haaretz, publishing since the 1910s. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

   I would be fine with an alternate swap. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

3. Support removal, oppose addition per comment above. The nom makes the claim that "Israel is also currently unrepresented on the newspaper list" but provides no analysis to back that up. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:27, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support removal, oppose addition per above. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removal, oppose addition per above. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:59, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)]]
7. Support swap with Haaretz. Vileplume (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Pyramid scheme and Ponzi scheme

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Pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes are widespread, historical significance, and have substantial impact on global economies and individuals' lives. These deceptive financial practices, lure victims with promises of high returns before collapsing, causing devastating financial losses valued in trillions. The Blue Rider 17:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 17:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support both--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 19:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support both per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Obviously. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Both vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:46, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
6. both -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
7. Both per The Blue Rider. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Order of precedence

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Support

1. As nom. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not quite important enough IMO. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:31, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Not important. Would not qualify even for a hypothetical VA6 IMO. SnowFire (talk) 01:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Only in ceremonial use. Order of succession may be more vital. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. The article is in very sad shape (in need of VA attention) and may seem less important as a result, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. It is important, but it also overlaps significantly with a bunch of other vital concepts (Etiquette  4, Diplomacy  3, Hierarchy  5). I'd tentatively support it after and if we bump hierarchy to V4 (I'll suggest this shortly).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

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Clean up genras: move Steampunk  5 and or something else?

I would like to move it from Visual arts->Concepts and forms (99/100 articles) where it is a subarticle of retro style to Speculative fiction (9 articles) section on that page, where I'd expect to find it in the same place, next to Cyberpunk  5. Per prior discussions and my understanding, we don't have to vote on this unless there are any objectins? If there'll be none I'll boldly move this over the next few days. The only problem is that it will affect quotas (minus one for Visual arts (498/500 articles), plus one Literature (1,002/985 articles).). Thing is, that speculative fiction already lists Cyberpunk, Time travel and Teleportation, which just like steampunk are not only about literature. Any suggestions about a better place to stick those concepts (multi-media genras) would be welcome. The concept of Genre  5 is all the way at Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Culture#Mass_media_(36/35_articles) with a single subarticle Western (genre), which is conceptually at the same level as cyberunk and steapunk. It's a bit of a mess... Should we also move genre and western back to arts subpage? Maybe stick it and those general subgenras under Arts->General (5 articles) for now? The nice part of that idea is that general heading has no quota :P --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:31, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Moved steampunk to be together with cyberpunk for now. Waiting for more feedback re the other issues before I boldly consider acting on the above myself. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove Puma (brand)

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Significantly smaller than each of the other companies we list under Clothing and accessories (Adidas, Chanel, LVMH and Nike, Inc.).

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 17:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Lack the heft to be VA.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:36, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
3. agree Aurangzebra (talk) 09:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Federal University of Rio de Janeiro

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Brazil's oldest university and the largest federal university. It includes the National Museum of Brazil and is the alma mater of individuals such as Oscar Niemeyer and Carlos Lessa. We are under quota in culture, yet South America has only 3 universities (compared to 100+ for North America, 90+ in the U.S. alone).

Support

1. As nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Presidentman (talk • contribs) 22:26, January 28, 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:58, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Comparative advantage

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The comparative advantage has a foundational role in International trade theory. Rooted in the work of economist David Ricardo  4, the concept elucidates the benefits of specialization and trade between nations. Understanding comparative advantage is crucial for comprehending the principles underpinning global economic interactions and trade policies. The Blue Rider 17:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. So many glaring omissions I have been noticing in the economics field, vital for sure. The Blue Rider 17:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Well said, I think this is V4 topic. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:21, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per The Blue Rider. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add New York Police Department or Scotland Yard, Remove College of Justice

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Police  3 is level 3 and deserves at least 1 representative. NYPD (40 interwikis, 1800 daily views) is probably the most iconic and has its own list of cultural representations that span media works produced in multiple continents: List of fictional portrayals of the NYPD. Similarly, Scotland Yard (48 interwikis, 1300 daily views) is also globally known for being a staple in Sherlock Holmes books and works of Victorian literature (Scotland Yard is the name of the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police but the Metropolitan Police is significantly less well-known as an entity). Politics and Economics is overquota so I suggest a swap with College of Justice (3 interwikis, 15 daily views) which is the supreme court system of Scotland. We already have Court of Session (4 interwikis, 44 daily views) which is the primary civil court within that system; we don't need 2 court entries for Scotland (in fact, I don't think they even need one but that's an argument for another day).

Support

1. as nom. Lean NYPD to counter the British bias we have in Institutions and professions. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support NYPD per nom. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swapping in NYPD per nom, since it is very important to American pop culture. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:24, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support NYPD per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 15:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Gray's Anatomy

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I just closed The Canon of Medicine and looked at this to figure out where it shoudld go. I am astounded that it is not currently listed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:33, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:33, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. absolutely Aurangzebra (talk) 22:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems very influential. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:37, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
4. 50 interwikis, claims of major significance for the field of medicine in the lead. Seems vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:51, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove Petalism

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Variant of Ostracism  5 with 5 interwikis, any lasting impact is non-direct. Politics and economics is over the quota and the Law section is by far the biggest subsection. Respublik (talk) 23:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom.Respublik (talk) 23:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I don't see what impact it has had on the world. It is just a historical footnote. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 12:50, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Metaconstitution

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1 interwiki, lacks vitality per "Many prominent political philosophers have discoursed on the subject of metaconstitutionalism, though not directly". Politics and economics is over the quota and the Law section is by far the biggest subsection. Respublik (talk) 23:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom.Respublik (talk) 23:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 00:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Niche topic. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Extremely obscure at 73 pageviews in the last 90 days – less than 1 pageview per day.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Invisible hand

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Extremely famous and influential metaphor used by Adam Smith to describe how the markets will auto-regulate themselves through an "invisible hand". This non-interventionist thought will have enormous repercussions in politics, philosophy but specially economic that still affect modern society. The Blue Rider 17:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 17:37, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 17:05, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Significant enough for separate vital treatment. Volunteer Marek 18:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per The Blue Rider. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. This Adam Smith  3 theory was most famously used in in The Wealth of Nations  4. Do we need it separately?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   Yes, we need. The repercussions and influence of the metaphor go much more beyond the book. The Blue Rider 12:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   I concur and will ping User:Volunteer Marek who is an economist in case they'd like to comment. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

   Yeah I think the metaphor has taken on a life of its own beyond Smith’s work (and is often misunderstood) so it should be dealt with also separately. Volunteer Marek 18:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove international political party federations

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Other than Muslim Brotherhood  5 which I think should be kept, and International Workingmen's Association  5 which is more of a historical subject, every one of these topics – Centrist Democrat International, International Democracy Union, Liberal International, Pirate Parties International, Socialist International  5, and Global Greens – are nothing more than loose associations of political parties. I doubt they have any material influence, and we are over quota in this section.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Remove all except Socialist International per below. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support removal of all except Socialist International. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Socialist International. The strongest and most influential international political party federations of all proposals, had a major role historically and presently. The Blue Rider 19:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose removal of Socialist International, per TBR. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose removal of Socialist International, per TBR. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Mixed

Discuss

• Just making sure, you're not proposing the removal of the Muslim Brotherhood or the International Workingmen's Association? Because I would oppose removing both of those. --Grnrchst (talk) 20:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Correct, I think these two should be kept. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 17:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Various literary genres

Based on page views for articles in Category:Literary genres last year. Pinging Aurangzebra who suggested these above.

Add Gothic fiction  5

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1506 daily page views last year, #2 in Category:Literary genres. Many well known works, including Dracula  4 and Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde  5.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom (probably as a subgenre of Horror fiction  4) Aurangzebra (talk) 08:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Fair. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. All these are easy adds. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:34, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Bildungsroman  5

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1445 daily page views last year, #3 in Category:Literary genres. A literary genre which focuses on Coming of age  5.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:34, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
5. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Roman à clef  5

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936 daily page views last year, #5 in Category:Literary genres. A genre of fiction dating back to the 17th century, which is growing because it provides the author with protection in our increasingly litigious society.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:34, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Same daily page views as space opera I proposed above. Why one is vital but not the other? Opposing for now due to inconsistency/bias. I'd be happy to support if you reconsider your votes on space opera, or explain to me the difference. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

   @Piotrus: Roman à clef is likely to have fewer page views than Space opera relative to its reader interest because it has a poorer-quality article and is thus less likely to appear in search results. The fact that Roman à clef still has more page views than Space opera (24k vs 16k in the last 20 days, 342k vs 294k last year) despite its poorer-quality article is an indicator of how important the topic is.

   Also, age and gender: Roman à clef was created in the 17th century versus the 1930s for Space opera; and Roman à clef was created by Madeleine de Scudéry allowing it to provide some female representation to literary genres. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

   Listing a few of Scudéry's contemporaries themselves wouldn't be amiss either. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Wonder (emotion)  5

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Seems like a major emotion missing from our list of 'Emotions and traits'. 17 intewrwikis, although just ~28 daily pageviews, sill, comparable to a bunch of other stuff we list (quite a few tend to have a bit more pageviews but fewer interwikis, ex. Sorrow (emotion) or Gratification). And psychology has room to fill (184 articles out of a quota of 220) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. good call Aurangzebra (talk) 03:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Eskimo kiss  5, Add Handshake

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Add to Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Culture#Basics_(18/15_articles)

Support

1. The former has 22 interwikis, the latter has 40 interwikis. One of these gestures is more prevalent than the other. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 13:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support add-obviously important/vital-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support both. Eskimo kiss is a niche human behavior and the article makes a claim it is used in more cultres, but that section is very poorly referenced. I could change my mind if the article were to make a case this is more common worldwide, but right now this is, well, I said already. Too niche to be V5 (or the article is too poor to make that case). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Weak support remove, strong support add Aurangzebra (talk) 11:36, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Support both per Piotrus. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:59, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
7. Support addition per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:56, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
8. Support addition, neutral on removal. Vileplume (talk) 16:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
9. Support addition, oppose removal. Shaking hands is an obviously vital piece of everyday life, but I oppose the removal per TonyTheTiger. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose remove-This is an important human expression of a remote culture. Direct quantified measures of suggested importance are not relevant. If there is an Inuit languages WP and if it were to have (or does have) a VA structure, this is probably a VA3-4 item. For cultural breadth, we should retain this.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose removal per TonyTheTiger. It's not common that an indigenous practice manages to have worldwide influence in the everyday life of people. The Blue Rider 10:56, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose removal per TonyTheTiger. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:56, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Gold standard

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Another major omission, the gold standard is historical significance and had an enduring impact on monetary systems. Historically, the gold standard served as a basis for currencies, providing stability and a tangible anchor for monetary value. It is crucial for comprehending the evolution of economic systems, international finance, and the role of precious metals in shaping currency policies. The Blue Rider 18:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Was very important to the history of money. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:19, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:22, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
5. I nominated this on History after Find and replace did not turn up anything on that talk page. I still think this is better placed under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/History#History of economy considering that nobody uses the gold standard anymore. The Blue Rider, I would have appreciated a courtesy ping, thanks. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Buffet

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A very common way worldwide for food to be served. Place this under Food service.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. V5 concept, probably. Weak support. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Obviously. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Frankfurt School

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The Frankfurt School, a 20th-century school of thought, revolutionized critical theory by blending sociology, philosophy, and cultural critique. Their critique of mass media, consumerism, and power structures remains influential, shaping discussions on modernity and societal change. The Blue Rider 21:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 21:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 14:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
3. This might be V4. And certainly it is V5. See also my comments on sociology elsehwere on this page. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:35, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 19:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:49, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Per The Blue Rider. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

@The Blue Rider: Is this a discussion to add or remove? QuicoleJR (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

To add, my bad. Thanks. The Blue Rider 17:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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Internet medium section cleanup

Remove Trollface

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One of the entries in this already over-quota section is a.. popular reaction image. Ok, but I don't see what's so special about it to be one of the only two entries under "Internet meme". In any case, if this was vital, it should be listed under fictional characters.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
2. It is not even mentioned at Internet meme, nor does its own article make a claim that it is that famous. We are over quota - good candidate to prune. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Troll inclusion. We don't list Troll (slang). J947 ‡ ^edits 03:20, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   Hmm, Troll (slang) does actually seem like it should be here though, come to think of it. Totalibe (talk) 13:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   I'd support adding it (or a swap). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

4. Support  Carlwev  15:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

1. Come to think of it, this wouldn't even qualify as a "fictional character" as its just a cartoon of an expression representing trolling rather than having any actual character attached to it. Totalibe (talk) 13:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

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Move Pepe the Frog to fictional characters

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The other entry listed under "internet meme", this is more of an interesting case, due to the controversies surrounding its co-option by the alt-right. I think unlike trollface it may actually be vital due to its cultural complexity/significance, but it still needs to be moved to fictional characters if kept, rather than this section, which is more for general concepts surrounding internet culture.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Procedural oppose for now - Totalibe, please link the relevant vital section (for fictional characters) and discuss its quota. That said, I think the move makes sense if there is room in the target vital section. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   Sorry, Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Arts#Fictional_characters. At 127/130 at the moment. To be clear, this is something of a weak support. Totalibe (talk) 12:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   If there is room, consider my oppose withdrawn. Although frankly this could be here or there, it's one of those concepts that belongs in multiple vital categories. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:24, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove entirely

Discussion

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Replace Virtual influencer with VTuber  5

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Virtual influencer is a rather obscure term and the article uses it as an umbrella term that refers to non- or pre-Internet phenomena such as Virtual bands and Vocaloids. The VTuber  5 article encompasses the vast majority of this concept's relevance to strictly online culture, and as a far more common term, has much more traffic and interwikis (and of course is a longer, more developed article overall).

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
2. 2:30 interwikis, ~30 vs ~800 daily page views. Pretty good case for swap. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support removal, weak support on addition. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Vtubers are not essential to the comprehension of our society, plus YouTube  4 already cover this topic enough. Furthermore, Youtuber, the broader concept is not (rightfully) vital either. The Blue Rider 19:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

   @The Blue Rider In that case, do you support the removal of virtual influencer without the swap? Also, if to be somewhat pedantic, the term "VTuber" doesn't actually refer exclusively to YouTubers, it just got that name thanks to YouTube's ubiquity and many VTUbers actually use other platforms such as Twitch. A better parent concept would be live streamer. I think YouTuber may actually qualify as vital but I am not sure this would be the appropriate section to include it. Totalibe (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

   Yes, I support the removal of virtual influencer, we don't need to list specific types of internet celebrities. The Blue Rider 22:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Do something with Massive open online course  5

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Right, I know, that's weird. We can move, remove, swap or replace. Let me discuss this, acknowledging MOOCs are probably a V5 thing. First, it is weird to see this at Internet medium section, so my first thought was to move it up to Education - but that section is at ~350/300 in quota, sigh. (Frankly, I'd like to see that quota increased but that's for later). Still, move at least would make MOOC be together with other ideas. Remove logic is simple - it is in overquota section now and belongs in a section that is even more over quota. For swap, well, Course (education)  5 is not vital yet and it is obvious we should add the basic concept of a course before we consider the vitality of MOOCs... that said, having no course entry on vital list makes me fear that the education section might be missing more vital concepts (yet it is already way over quota???). Anyway, let's vote:

Support move

1. As nom (first choice). Easy solution, +1 over quota is not an issue - we need to clean up/discuss that entire section later. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose move

Support removal

1. As nom (second choice). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose removal

Support swap

1. With Course (education)  5 to be added to education. Third choice. I'll propose adding Course (education)  5 anyway in the relevant section shortly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose swap

Discuss

• I'll move it per recent consensus in various places that moves can be made per WP:BOLD w/out discussion. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:05, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

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Politics of specific countries

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A forgotten area that is very much affected by systemic bias. I propose to remove Politics of Greece (the corruption thing is relatively minor on a global scale IMO), Politics of Sweden  5, Politics of Denmark, and Politics of New Zealand; and add Politics of Pakistan  5, Politics of Bangladesh, Politics of Egypt  5, and Federal government of Nigeria (formerly titled Politics of Nigeria). A very, very straightforward change for starters.

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:54, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support everything except the below mentioned. The Blue Rider 11:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support swapping of New Zealand for Pakistan and Denmark for Egypt for now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support all except Bangladesh. Would be nice to have Indonesia as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose add Politics of Bangladesh, not a particularly influential country politically, and the removal of Politics of Sweden, an important country regionally. The Blue Rider 11:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   Bangladesh certainly might not be the best option, but preferring Sweden over it seems crazy to me. Bangladesh politics directly affects 174 million, while the whole Nordic region clocks in at about 28 million (with Sweden at 10.5). Unless you think Swedish politics is 15 times as important per capita than Bangladeshi politics, then keeping it this way round doesn't make a whole lot of sense. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

   As much as I like Norway, Sweden is the most important and influential Nordic country, surely they deserve representation. Demographics isn't the sole criteria, both the Swedish soft, hard, and smart power are way, way higher than Bangladesh and as so they can exerce more power globally. Not to mention that the state of Sweden has a long history and its politics were thus important at those times, on the contrary, from my understanding, Bangladesh has no any direct predecessor. The Blue Rider 20:35, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• Would support a swap of Politics of Greece with Greek government-debt crisis. The Blue Rider 11:17, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
• Leaning support but I want to look at the section in general. Per TBR I am not that convinced Bangladesh should be added, and I am concerned about the focus of the Nigerian article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

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Cleanup up education (increase quota?)

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Right now Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Society and social sciences/Culture#Education has a problem: "This section contains 350 articles out of a quota of 305.". A quick glance shows that this problem is made up of two issues: first, majority of the quota for that section is eaten by individual educational institutions (259 articles for schools - mostly universities - plus 22 libraries). That leaves us with 69 general education topics, and that's not enough. Just above I proposed adding Course (education)  5 and elsewhere on the page here I proposed moving Massive open online course  5 to that section. A quick and dirty look at some basic educational concepts reveals what I think are glaring omissions in our coverage - the following concepts are not listed: Grading in education  5, Course credit  5, Undergraduate education  5, Secondary school  5, Primary school  5, Multiple choice  5... I am sure we could find more. So bottom line is that this section either needs a quota increase (probably +100) or major pruning. Realistically we can either give it more quota from somewhere, or we should gut the institutions (by half) and after kicking ~100 of not very important universities we can add some basic education topics. I'll propose ideas below.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 1

Adjust education subsection quotas (currently not specified outside 305 total:

• Education: General - right now has 69 articles. Set quota to 100.
• Libraries - right now has 22 articles. Set quota to 20 (there are 8 start class articles here...).
• Educational institutions - right now has 269 articles. Set quota to 185 (then prune - there is plenty of start-class universities that nobody outside their countries has even heard about. Plus the usual bias with some weird outliers - Australia gets 8 entres, Japan 13, Sweden 3, the entire Eastern Europe gets 4.).

Support

1. as nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
2. While subquotas have been removed per Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5#out_of_a_quota_of_XXX_-_deision_to_remove_subquotas_added/drafted_without_discussion, I still think that we list too many universities. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:32, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Partial support, coupled with an increase in education quota to 350 or so. Agreed that there are quite a few questionable universities on the list; in particular I think the US is overrepresented especially with universities known more for sports than academics. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Should we just archive this discussion, as the subquotas were removed? --Makkool (talk) 16:24, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 2

Increase education quota from 305 to 400. No, at that moment I don't have a suggestion where to take it from. Please suggest if you do. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

This is a situation that would be helped if we switched to a project size as a percentage (somewhere between 0.75% and 1%) of all articles. Each year we would get a few hundred extra slots for a these types of issues.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. I think we have way too many magazines (89 articles), considering that magazines as a medium of publication are in quick decline due to the rise of alternative forms of media, mostly over the internet. We can cut some newspapers too, another medium of publication which is in quick decline. We can cut out at least half of the magazines and at least some of the newspapers to provide more quota to education. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Hex map

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Key concept for many modern strategy games, board and video alike. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 02:14, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Low importance in all its Wiki projects, 7 interwikis, and I don't think something that is a key concept in wargames, which themselves are a very tenuous VA5 concept in my opinion, is anywhere near the same vitality as other things on this list. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:48, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Aurangzebra. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Ligature (writing)

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See discusion above, but it's a pretty minor concept - we are at quota and more important related topics should be added (see above or proposals below). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:18, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:18, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
5. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Beach ball

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The Toys (58/60 articles) section of Entertainment (512/525 articles) is under quota

Support

1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:19, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak support. We are under quota, can always consider a swap later, but for now, sure. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Definitely vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• restored from archive. starship.paint (RUN) 02:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Firefighter

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Support

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:30, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Everyday profession. starship.paint (RUN) 03:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Conditional support only if we are under relevant quota, since firefighting is V4 and there is much redundancy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
4. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

• Not sure how redundant is to Firefighting  4. The Blue Rider 15:33, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
• We have Accounting  4 and Accountant  5; Aircraft  3, Aviation  4 and Aircraft pilot  5; Bank  3 and Bank teller  5. That is just the first three professions listed alphabetically at Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Politics_and_economics#Common_trades_and_professions_(30_articles).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
• restored from archive. starship.paint (RUN) 02:52, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Kweichow Moutai

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The second-largest company in China by market cap after Tencent  5.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Swap: Remove Verizon Communications, add China Mobile

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Why do we list the #19 wireless carrier when we don't list the largest?

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support addition, oppose removal for now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:51, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support only add China Mobile Aurangzebra (talk) 08:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support addition. Vileplume (talk) 14:27, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Verizon is pretty famous worldwide. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:51, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Fine with adding China Mobile but oppose removing Verizon. Verizon is not just a mobile network operator, they are also a Tier 1 ISP (an ISP that can reach every network over the Internet without paying someone else to route any of their traffic). There are only 15 companies on Earth that can claim this. They own so much of the world's global Internet infrastructure. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add True crime  5

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An extremely popular genre of journalism or non-fiction literature today, but that also has history all the way from Capote's In Cold Blood. --Makkool (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. --Makkool (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:04, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
3. I could see this going to VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:23, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:17, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 00:01, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
6. I'd also say this is V4 Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume (talk) 14:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add International Women's Day

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With over a century of history, International Women's Day has become a massive event throughout the globe, as a way for women to celebrate and organise themselves. From the days of first wave feminism, when it was the catalyst for the Russian Revolution, to second-wave feminism, when it was adopted by the United Nations, to today, it has been a very important day in the year for women. It is an official holiday in much of the second world and an unofficial holiday in many other parts. The article itself has 123 interwikis, averages 1,320 daily page views, and is on the front page every year. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:22, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:01, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
6. feminist🚰 (talk) 05:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Internet celebrity, Remove Virtual influencer

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I wanted to add influencer but it redirects to Internet celebrity which is also fine. We list a more niche subtype of Internet celebrity/influencer, but we don't list the much more notable parent. Definitely notable considering that fact 86% of young Americans want to become influencers and I assume this extends globally with the prevalence of Youtube and Tiktok. There were discussions above to remove virtual influencer which I completely agree with: it really hasn't achieved that much global notability outside of its relatively small community. It also only has 2 interwikis compared to Internet celebrity's 26. Originally intended as a swap for virtual influencer when it looked like the proposal for the swap for Vtuber wouldn't pass but now this is just a raw addition. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Makes sense. Vileplume (talk) 01:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

When you said there was discussions above on virtual influencer, you didn't mention there already was a swap proposal. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I didn't mention that specifically because it doesn't look like it's going to pass. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:33, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The previous discussion was just closed by me. Removal of virtual influencer and swapping it with vtuber passed. I'm also for adding internet celebrity, but won't vote as we already have enough support. --Makkool (talk) 17:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• I am going to have to look at this more closely. I think "Influencer" should be a separate article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

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SF novels

Anyone onterested in this topic, consider CTRL+F for my proposal for The Three-Body Problem somewhere above, ditto for Ghost in the Shell, and see ongoing anime and manga discussions, as well as ones about sf TV shows and films. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Disclaimer: due to low participation I'll boldy notify WT:SF of this discussion, to hopefully draw some more suggestions/comments. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Swap The Dispossessed for Hainish Cycle or The Left Hand of Darkness

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SF novel. The Dispossessed is an important novel by Le Guin but I'd say The Left Hand of Darkness is more significant. I'd suggest swapping TD for either TLHoD or the cycle it is part of. TLHoD has more interwikis (28:21) and more page views (800:650). The cycle has less, but it is a parent concept. I'll also ping User:TompaDompa whom I consider an expert in sci-fi topics. Note: proposing swap not addition as the quota is full. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support per nom (add The Left Hand of Darkness). J947 ‡ ^edits 03:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap for TLHOD per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:04, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap with TLHOD. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The Dispossessed's article is in worse shape but in my reading it's the Le Guin book more often taught and used as characteristic of her writing. I wouldn't swap for the Hainish Cycle in any event. czar 18:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Dicuss

I am surprised this not controvrsial proposal generated no comments. I'll ping folks who commented elsehwere in this thread: @TompaDompa, @Hanif Al Husaini, @LaukkuTheGreit, @Totalibe, @QuicoleJR, @Marchantiophyta. By all means, oppose if you think I am missing something, but it would be a shame if this is archived just b/c it was somehow missed. (And check few other open proposals below, if I may...). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't sure how to vote on this one, personally The Dispossesed is easily the Ursula Le Guin book I am most familair with and I associate with her, so personal experience says "keep" but Left Hand of Darkness does seem more well-known overall admittedly. Totalibe (talk) 14:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

TLHoD is the only Le Guin novel I've read (so far), so I'll refrain from voting --Marchantiophyta (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

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Move Foucault's Pendulum  5 and The Metamorphosis  4 from science fiction works to general literary fiction

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Nothing in either article classifices them as sf or fantasy. Do let me know if such a move can be done boldy without a vote (with an edit summary?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

I say moving items within a page, in a way that does not affect the set quotas, is minor enough to not require voting. This talk page is busy enough as it is, let such things be handled under things like WP:BRD.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I've boldly moved this per above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add Starship Troopers or swap for From Here to Eternity (novel)  5

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Assuming we want to swap to maintain quota, both books have one major award and were made into a film. ST has more interwikis (31:8) and pageviews (800:100) than FHtE Both share military thermes, but ST is more influential on popculture and has its own franchise; it is also classic for mil sf genre--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:31, 3 December 2023 (UTC).

Support

1. As nominator --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 18:55, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support add per nom. Both books seem important and influential enough to make the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Based on the modern adaptations, I view ST as more vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Just want to point out the fact that From Here to Eternity "was named one of the 100 Best Novels of the 20th century by the Modern Library Board". --Makkool (talk) 18:16, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Makkool Right, but it seems like a pretty minor recognition - we do not have an article about that particular honor, and 100 Best Novels lists are dime a dozen. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   A better measure of acclaim than an individual top list is https://thegreatestbooks.org/ - both books are ranked rather low[1][2], although that site isn't necessarily free of systemic biases of its own.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 20:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   @LaukkuTheGreit One of your links is broken, here it is fixed: https://thegreatestbooks.org/books/241 I wonder what methodology they use? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   Fixed, I had copypasted the same URL twice. They go into more detail here: https://thegreatestbooks.org/rankings --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:32, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

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Add Neuromancer

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SF classic. "Considered one of the earliest and best-known works in the cyberpunk genre, it is the only novel to win the Nebula Award, the Philip K. Dick Award, and the Hugo Award.". SF classic. 29 interwikis and very high page views (1,564). More interwikis, awards and pageviews than a lot of other entries in '20th century fiction (243/240 articles)' (which is a bit over quota, but I'll propose some removals in a new section below shortly). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:31, 3 December 2023 (UTC).

Support

1. As nominator --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
3. per nom --Marchantiophyta (talk) 04:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add The Three-Body Problem (novel)

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Arguably the most famous non-English/non-Japanese (anime...) language sci-fi work of the last few decades. See lead. It's English translation "became the first Asian novel ever to win a Hugo Award for Best Novel" and for those who are familiar with the context, for a translation to do so is excedeengly rare. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support Totalibe (talk) 20:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Object

Discuss

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Add The Martian Chronicles

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Suggested by User:TompaDompa as one of the two titles more vital than Gravity's Rainbow  5 (the other title is below). GR has 18 interwikis and 1k daily page views. TMC has 30 interwikis and but only 400 daily pageviews. GR has shared "the 1974 US National Book Award for Fiction" with another title and is mentioned on some of the 'greatest novels' lists. Both books have some relation to Pulitzer Prize but neither won it (see articles). Both have lenght influence/cultural legacy sections. I am not suggesting a swap, but it seems both books are roughtly as important (vital). Why list GR but not TMC? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here}

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support. TompaDompa (talk) 11:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Object

Discuss

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Add Stranger in a Strange Land

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Suggested by User:TompaDompa as one of the two titles more vital than Gravity's Rainbow  5 (the other title is above). GR has 18 interwikis and 1k daily page views. SitSL has 29 interwikis and 817 pageviews. From the article: it "won the 1962 Hugo Award for Best Novel and became the first science fiction novel to enter The New York Times Book Review's best-seller list. In 2012, the Library of Congress named it one of 88 "Books that Shaped America"". Again, I am not arguing a swap is needed, but I also don't see why GR is listed but not this classic. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here}

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Should definitely be included. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:20, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support. TompaDompa (talk) 11:53, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Object

Discuss

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Add Trick or treating

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Support

1. Support as nom  Carlwev  16:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak support adding it somewhere. I think this is an important concept for popculture. We probably need to increase quota. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:14, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
3. The Blue Rider 14:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
4. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Piotrus is right, and the other place is over quota, plus we already list Halloween. starship.paint (RUN) 16:15, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: Subsection quotas no longer exist. Do you still oppose this proposal? QuicoleJR (talk) 21:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Which part of Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Everyday life would this go to? This is more Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Culture#Festivals,_holidays,_and_observances_(91/75_articles) for me. And this is over quota. Can you suggest swaps or removals? You provide no rationale for this or your other suggestions here (all of which should go to that section IMHO). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
• restored from archive. starship.paint (RUN) 02:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Epson

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4th-largest manufacturer of printers in the world after HP Inc. (represented through predecessor company Hewlett-Packard  5 on our list), Canon Inc. (not at VA5) and Brother Industries (not at VA5). Not convinced this is vital.

Support

1. As nominator. 𝒻eminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:58, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:50, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Bus operator removals

Other than Greyhound Lines whose article indicates a long history, I'm not seeing anything which makes the bus operators we list important, considering that 1) the Politics and economics section is over quota; 2) transport is overrepresented in this category; and 3) these generally have local rather than global significance. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove FirstGroup

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Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Too regional. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove FlixBus

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Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom, though this would be the 2nd one to list I think. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. I agree with J947. If we have decide we need a 2nd bus line, it would be this one but it is nowhere near as vital as the other companies on this list. Aurangzebra (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose, considering pretty global reach (three continents). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose per nom, the company is quite global operating through various European countries and beyond. Also somewhat influential in a way it's presents a specific business model. Works as V5. Respublik (talk) 17:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove Mobico Group

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Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Too regional. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Stagecoach Group

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Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Too regional. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Megabus (North America)

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Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Too regional. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Airline removals

The Politics and economics section of V5 is currently over quota (1857/1600), and transport is way overrepresented in that list relative to their significance. Airlines move people and cargo, and different airlines mostly operate in different markets, but other than that, they really are quite similar. They operate the same planes, adhere to the same industry standards, use similar reservation systems, etc. There is not that much reader value in listing so many separate airlines – and I say this as someone who takes a casual interest in commercial aviation. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove Air Canada

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The smallest North American airline we list (187 mainline passenger aircraft).

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Was inclined to oppose some of these but the nom's rationale convinces me. This one's a weaker support though – it's possibly justified to list one Canadian airline when we list what 6 U.S. ones. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 03:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Avianca

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One of the smallest airlines we list, especially considering the relatively few long-haul aircraft operated (thirteen 787s) compared to other network carriers we list.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove EasyJet

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It's the second-largest low cost airline in Europe. I think it's enough to list Ryanair at this level.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove KLM

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One of the smallest airlines we list, and it's part of the same airline group as Air France, which is also listed at this level.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Ancient though. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Scandinavian Airlines

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One of the smallest airlines we list.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Newspaper additions

Newspapers is over 20 articles under the quota, and it is heavily biased towards American and British newspapers. In this section, I have put together a list of 15 additions. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Support all. I think we should have a section for support all (oppose all)... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:36, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

That seems very reductionist – the NZ Herald is clearly not one of the 80 most vital newspapers of all time. For me there's definitely some which I'll support and definitely some which I'll oppose. J947 ‡ ^edits 10:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

You might want to add your name to these discussions properly. I don’t think your vote is being counted. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Corriere della Sera

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It is Italy's most read newspaper, it has been in publication since 1876, and the Italy, Journalism, and Newspapers WikiProjects all rate it High-Importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:40, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
5. This seems to be Italy's #1. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
7. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add La Repubblica

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This is a quite politically important newspaper which used to have a circulation of over half a million copies and is still very widely read in Italy. It is rated High-Importance by the Italy, Newspapers, and Journalism WikiProjects.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Italy has a population comparable to France or the UK so more than one newspaper is justified. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
4. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
5. I think a second Italian paper is justified, and this seems to be the better option. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:15, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose; at a quota of 80 and given the Italian newspaper market seems relatively "flat", so to speak, I think only one Italian newspaper is justified. This one is relatively recent. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per J947. The Blue Rider 09:59, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per J947. Plus, I would prefer to reserve more quota for more general topics rather than for specific newspapers. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per J947. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• I'm not aware of overall picture, so it may well be the case that only one Italian newspaper is justified, but I wouldn't say that La Repubblica is relatively recent since it was founded in 1976 (El País was also founded in 1976, El Mundo in 1989) and is the second most popular newspaper in Italy (we currently have 5 German and 5 Japanese newspapers). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Add La Stampa

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It currently sees modest circulation, but it had a circulation of over half a million copies at its peak. It has been in publication since 1867. The Italy and Newspapers WikiProjects both rate it High-Importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
3. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:10, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Italy has too many newspapers. The Blue Rider 09:59, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Only one Italian newspaper is justified. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:08, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Adding La Repubblica is good enough for me as far as Italian newspapers are concerned. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:15, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
5. One Italian newspaper is sufficient. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Aftenposten

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Founded in 1860, this newspaper currently has an estimated 1.2 million readers. It is also considered a newspaper of record.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:08, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
5. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not sure Norway justifies a newspaper. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:11, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per J947. The Blue Rider 10:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per J947. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:08, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per J947. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Dagens Nyheter

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This paper is widely considered Sweden's newspaper of record. It gets 1.5 million unique viewers to its website every week and has a circulation of over 300,000 copies.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
4. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Politiken

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This newspaper has had a circulation of over half a million copies at times, and the website gets roughly 800,000 unique visits weekly.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not sure Denmark justifies a newspaper at VA5. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per J947. The Blue Rider 09:57, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Shouldn't it be Berlingske, Denmark's longstanding newspaper of record? Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Helsingin Sanomat

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It is the largest newspaper in the Nordic countries, and very influential to the Finnish public opinion. Its website gets over a million unique visits weekly, and it has a current circulation of over 400,000 copies. The Newspapers WikiProject also rated it High-Importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Based on the very high circulation relative to the size of Finland. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
5. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add ABC (newspaper)

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Consistency one of Spain's best-selling newspapers, and one of Spain's three newspapers of record. It is High-Importance on both the Spain and Newspapers WikiProjects.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Newspapers are generally not vital, so we should strictly list the most important ones and in Spain case is El Pais . The Blue Rider 12:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose per The Blue Rider. Two Spanish newspapers is sufficient, or perhaps already too many. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:25, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add La Vanguardia

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This is the fourth-most circulated newspaper in Spain and the most circulated newspaper in the autonomous region of Catalonia. WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries rated it as High-Importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Not a newspaper of record. starship.paint (RUN) 13:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add The Globe and Mail

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One of Canada's most popular newspapers with a weekly readership of over 2 million. Some people consider it to be Canada's newspaper of record.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. North America is entirely focused on the U.S. at the moment. starship.paint (RUN) 06:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support By far most pageviews of the newspaper WP articles proposed here.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 17:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

   To be fair, that is due to English-speaking reader bias. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

5. This or the Toronto Star. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
7. A long-standing newspaper of record is vital. 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add El Universal (Mexico City)

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This newspaper has had a major impact on Mexican culture, and it is very widely read.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. It's a toss-up between this, with the longer history, and Reforma. I'm going to say yes since we don't have any Mexican newspapers. starship.paint (RUN) 13:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 11:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Tough to tell what media we should include for Mexico. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be Reforma their only likely newspaper of record? Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Clarín (Argentine newspaper)

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It is the most popular newspaper in Argentina, and one of the most popular newspapers in the entire Spanish-speaking world. WikiProject Argentina rates it High-Importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:48, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. South America is not yet represented. starship.paint (RUN) 06:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Good find. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Support. Should also add La Nación, their newspaper of record. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Folha de S.Paulo

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This is the most circulated Brazilian newspaper, it is a newspaper of record, and it is very popular in Brazil.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:50, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. South America is not yet represented. starship.paint (RUN) 06:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Long-standing newspaper of record is vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Al-Ahram

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This is the most circulated daily newspaper in Egypt with a circulation of roughly a million. It has been around since the 19th century, so it also has historical significance. It is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Egypt.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:51, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Africa is not yet represented. starship.paint (RUN) 06:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Long-standing newspaper of record is vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add The New Zealand Herald

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It is the most circulated newspaper in New Zealand, and it has been around for 160 years. The Auckland and Newspapers WikiProjects rate it High-Importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
2. New Zealand's main long-standing newspaper of record (since 1863) is vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose; this would be the NZ newspaper to include if we were to include one, but I'm not convinced we should. J947 † ^edits 22:54, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

   For the record, if we must include a NZ media outlet then TVNZ is probably the best option (or Radio New Zealand). J947 ‡ ^edits 11:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

2. Per J947. The Blue Rider 12:56, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

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(not OP) Add Libération

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Since France was earlier mentioned as possibly underrepresented, here is France's third paper of record. Totalibe (talk) 14:05, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 14:05, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Weak support: the lede read makes it seem important. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Long-standing newspaper of record is vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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(not OP) Add Kompas

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The newspaper of record for large country Indonesia. The most (or at least one of the most) read newspaper in Southeast Asia. Asia is underrepresented in the list of newspapers.

Support

1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
2. I had considered nomming this one myself, actually Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 00:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Main newspaper of record (since 1863) is vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Polish newspapers

We are apparently under quota here with (59/80 articles): Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Culture. Probably b/c it is quite incomplete for many countries. Let me suggest a the three major Polish ones, based on [3]. Note that UK has 7, Germany and Russia, 5. France and Spain are likely under-quota with just 2. Easy pickings if someone wants to fill that in: - no Italian, Portuguese, Scandinavian, Greek, Balkans, nothing else from Eastern Europe... US is possibly over-represented with 16, shrug. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

FYI, I am in the process of making an addition list. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Good. What are the ~3 major newspapers in Italy? @Gitz6666? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The three major newspapers in Italy are Il Corriere della Sera, La Repubblica and La Stampa, if we don't take into account specialised newspapers such as Il Sole 24 Ore (financial newspaper) and La Gazzetta dello Sport (dedicated to sport). Source: Accertamenti Diffusione Stampa. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:21, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I've created a section on Italian newspapers here below. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The list I made is available in a below section. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• @Piotrus: I think TVPs are more influential than newpaprs from Poland, also if we would decide add Gazeta Wyborcza then we would have to add something other for ballance too. Sometimes Gazeta Wyborcza is called as most influential newpaper toward left-wing and on the contary RzeczPostpospolira (not nominated) as sometimes far-right. I am neutral or anything either way. I would also list many national flags which were rejected in the past before many things like local/national TV/Nespapers etc. (I used to believe earlier that every single nationa flag and coat of arm is vital, and I at this level, do not have much doubts about that still). Dawid2009 (talk) 11:14, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Dawid2009 I haven't noticed where TV stations are listed. Telewizja Polska may be vital, as a national broadcaster, but that's for another section to discuss, I guess? Many flags may be vital (famous) and I'd support them as images/symbols, I don't think coat of arms are well known these days. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• I think there's space for one Polish TV station or newspaper (at a stretch two). So given we have the luxury of having two Polish regulars – @Piotrus: @Dawid2009: – could you guys each please give an ordered list of which of these you'd like to see listed? I think we should vote based on the result of that. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  I already made the proposals below for newspapers. TV stations are in another section (quota) I think? Are they being discussed anywhere? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:23, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  I suppose I tend to compare articles from different sections more than most, but I think we should just consider newspapers and TV stations together as mass media outlets. TV stations are listed under Television, for the record. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  @J947 I assume you mean Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Society_and_social_sciences/Culture#Television_networks_and_channels? That secion seems to suffer from major systemic bias. listing American TV networks (15), Australian TV networks (2), British TV networks (2), German TV networks (3) and Russian TV networks (4). That said, we also have to deal with the quota (for TV: This section contains 373 articles out of a quota of 260.). Sigh. So we are way over quota, and we are way too US/English-centric. Before I'd even suggest a Polish station to add, I think we obviously need some Chinese, Japanese, French, Spanish, Italian... etc. But how to deal with making this more balanced with the current quota, I am unsure. Also ping to @QuicoleJR who helped with newspaper balancing below. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:01, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Fakt

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Daily newspaper/tabloid, and #1 based on that list. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
2. The most circulated newspaper in Poland should definitely be added. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:11, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Sure. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Poland only needs one newspaper. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Not a newspaper of record. starship.paint (RUN) 02:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add Gazeta Wyborcza

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#2 on that least, a mainstream, serious publication (liberal leaning). Also, the 10th most read newspaper in Europe.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Poland's main newspaper of record. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Super Express (newspaper)

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#3 on that list. Polish Daily Mail etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
2. I would say this one is also vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not sure we need a second Polish tabloid, especially one not considered a reliable newspaper of record. Totalibe (talk) 13:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose per Totalibe. The Blue Rider 12:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 06:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 11:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Notable but not vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 14:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.