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Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/Society/Archive 5

< Wikipedia talk:Vital articles | Level/5 | Society
Latest comment: 8 months ago by The Blue Rider in topic Add Los Angeles Dodgers
Archive 1←Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7→Archive 10

Add Physiocracy

Latest comment: 8 months ago9 comments5 people in discussion
ADDED
Added 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 11:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

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Physiocracy, an 18th-century economic theory, significantly influenced modern economic thought. By highlighting agriculture's importance in wealth creation and advocating for minimal government intervention, it laid the groundwork for capitalist ideologies and emphasized natural economic laws. Its impact on shaping economic theories and policies makes it a vital inclusion in discussions surrounding foundational economic concepts.

Support
  1. As nominator; glaring omission. The Blue Rider   17:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Changing to support, while unknown to me (and I am financial by background), I see that is it considered the first scientific school of economics. Definite Level 5. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    Yes, thank you. It was a pioneering school. The Blue Rider   17:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Conditional support if there is quota. Historically important but borderline economic history trivia IMHO. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
    Definitely not trivia, one of the most fundamental and influential economic schools of thought. The Blue Rider   17:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per The Blue Rider. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Not sure it is so well known now; notable but not vital. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
55 interwikis makes it certainty well known. Furthermore, François Quesnay   5, Richard Cantillon   5, Jean-Baptiste Colbert   5 and Anne Robert Jacques Turgot   5 are all physiocrats. I will be baffled if this doesn't pass. The Blue Rider   21:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Troika (dance)

Latest comment: 8 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion
REMOVED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

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Another regional dance (Russian) with less then a century of history. Stub with nothing suggesting vitality. 7 interwikis and just 16 daily pageviews. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss
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Remove Telstra

Latest comment: 8 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion
REMOVED
Removed 5-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 11:28, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

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An internet service provider and mobile network operator which operates in a country of 27 million people, not even big enough to appear on List of mobile network operators. Has regional significance at best.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Weak Support. Pretty important ISP and largest non-American/non-European ISP in terms of autonomous system (Internet) cone size. But I do think Siemens below is more important so will vote to remove so we have space. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:33, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 03:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support not vital. Gizza (talk) 09:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Household items

Latest comment: 8 months ago83 comments13 people in discussion

Since Everyday life is under quota (1186/1200) and Household items is under (75/80) I propose the following items

Add Picnic table

NO CONSENSUS
1-2. The Blue Rider   01:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. While Table (furniture)   4 is V4, I am not convinced we need to link table variations at V5. What makes picnic table vital? Is this a global concept? What other tables are already vital? Analysis is missing here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, The reason I proposed it was because we are under quota and I consider it of similar vitality to other table variations Coffee table   5 and Nightstand   5 when I looked at Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Everyday_life#Furniture_and_interior_design_(44_articles)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger I think coffee table is enough. I'd rather use the quota on something significantly different, and if we cannot come up with anything, relocate the quota. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Loveseat

FAILED
1-4. The Blue Rider   01:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. 6 interwikis, this does not seem very cross-cultural. We already have Couch   4. starship.paint (RUN) 16:18, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
    Well, I had never heard of Divan (furniture).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
    Then perhaps we can remove Divan. We should remove weak entries and adjust the quotas later on, you know several other categories are over quota. starship.paint (RUN) 02:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. I am not convinved we need this. Couch   4 is enough. Sure, couch is V4 but again, what makes this subtype of couch vital/global/etc.? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Oppose--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. J947 ‡ edits 04:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Dressing table

NOT ADDED
Not added 3-3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:38, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Weak support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Historical and still to some degree contemporarily important furniture, it was status of wealth and power. The Blue Rider   02:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I can't see this as vital. Minor furniture. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:38, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. per above. It's a table with a mirror, and some drawers maybe. starship.paint (RUN) 12:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. I would add Make-up artist   5 before this. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Sunlounger

NO CONSENSUS
1-2. The Blue Rider   02:06, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. If anything, we should list Deckchair first (22:3 interwikis, longer, and I don't see the difference - will propose merger). Not that I am convinced this is vital (no rationale from the nom). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, A sunlounger is a reclined seat. Your feet are on the same level with your butt. Your feet are on the ground in a deck chair.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:24, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, I think the problem is the Sunlounger main image. See new candidates at Talk:Sunlounger-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
    Thank you. I hope this lead to the improvement of one or both pages, but I think sunlounger is a very niche variant of the deckchair. The latter may be vital, perhaps, but I very much doubt we need this variant of it at V5. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:27, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, Any photo preference.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
    I have swapped in two. I wish the article had enough content to support a few more images.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:35, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Too niche. starship.paint (RUN) 12:25, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Folding chair and/or Deckchair

PARTIALLY ADDED
Folding chair added 4-0, Deckchair not added 3-2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Conditional support. Popular types of furniture today and for at lest century+. Folding chair sems to have more of a history if the undersourced article is to be believed. Deckchair has more interwikis. Could add both IF there's room in the quota, I guess.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support both--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support Folding chair only. Popular furniture. starship.paint (RUN) 13:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose Deckchair, it is a form of folding chair, and we're likely to go over quota with all the proposals. starship.paint (RUN) 13:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose Deckchair per above. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:35, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Filing cabinet

PASSED
Added 4-1. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Since we are under quota, I'll see if this one gets support too. Cabinetry   4 is listed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Weak support since if we are under quota, why not for now. This is common enough in modern offices. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Why not? Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:08, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Per LaukkuTheGreit. feminist🚰 (talk) 03:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss

4 interwikis is rather low, hmm.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Fire alarm system

PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Assuming you meant the system per Kammerer55, and I concur this is a vital concept related to modern living for V5. That said, I am concerned with overlap here with smoke detector proposed below. Do we need both of those at V5? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Important part of modern buildings. I'm okay with both this and smoke detector in V5. starship.paint (RUN) 12:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Smoke detector

PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:47, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Basic device that most buildings should have. --Kammerer55 (talk) 08:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Weak support. I agree but I am a bit concerned with significant overlap with Fire alarm proposed above. One of those may need to be cut. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:31, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Fire hydrant

PASSED
Added 6-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:43, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Sure, important part of modern landscapes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. J947 ‡ edits 03:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Divan (furniture)

PASSED
Removed 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Suggested above by User:Starship.paint. We have Couch   4. Why do we need this specific type that I have never heard of?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Not common, not significant. If we wanted to consider sysbias, we could consider a swap for Persian carpet. Note that Carpet   4 is V4 and across most of the world, this is what divan is. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    I'm confused about the divan–carpet comparison. J947 ‡ edits 03:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    @J947 pl:Dywan made me confused I think. This (divan (f)) has no pl interwiki and I never heard this term used in English... could be my regional bias. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Weak support: think there's list space for one of this and Ottoman (furniture)   5, which seems slightly more vital. J947 ‡ edits 03:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Accident

PASSED
Added 6-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:33, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

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Something that happens to pretty much everybody.

Support
  1. as nom 115.188.140.167 (talk) 20:46, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. This concept should likely be V4... 74 interwikis. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  6. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:30, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Crédit Agricole

Latest comment: 9 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion
WITHDRAW
I'll renominate. feminist🩸 (talk) 04:00, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

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I'm not seeing the need to include two French banks at the moment.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Weak oppose – the world's largest cooperative financial institution and almost as big as the other French bank (BNP Paribas), while still having historical importance. With 22 banks listed, it's not too egregious to list both IMO. J947 ‡ edits 23:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add popculture concepts

Latest comment: 8 months ago50 comments11 people in discussion

Add Mecha

PASSED
Added 6-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:08, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Spin-off from some discusions above: important concept for modern popculture. Anime/manga, but also went beyond that (BattleTech, a ton of video games...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. A pretty famous genre with impact beyond just anime - shows up in video games & wider culture as well. SnowFire (talk) 19:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. J947 † edits 01:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. Borderline vital. The Blue Rider   12:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 15:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  6. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Catgirl

Not added 1-3. starship.paint (RUN) 09:32, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

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Having suggested mecha, I thought - what other concept defines anime/manga? Doh. And yes, the article is not great, this is better covered under the serious name of Moe anthropomorphism, but let's face it - nobody but scholars knows the technical term for what is a very widely known trope, at least among geeks/nerds and like. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I think Moe would be the animanga concept to add rather than Moe anthropomorphism or Catgirl.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 11:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
    @LaukkuTheGreit: Fair point, will add below. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
    @SnowFire @J947 since you commented on mecha - I've added some additional concepts below. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Mecha is a whole genre. Catgirl is just one trope. SnowFire (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Not sure this is widespread enough (outside of anime) to add here, nyaa. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Moe (slang)

NOT ADDED
Not added 1-3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 11:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

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Per above, important concept in Japanese culture and global popculture as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. It was a big thing from, what, 2005-2010? At least as a full genre. Don't think it makes VA5 criteria though, I'd pick specific animes instead if there's a desire to expand coverage there. SnowFire (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. per SnowFire feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. per SnowFire starship.paint (RUN) 02:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Kawaii

PASSED
Added 4–0. J947 ‡ edits 06:31, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Just like above, important concept in Japanese culture and global popculture as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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PASSED
Added 6-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Parent to the above, the impact of Japanese pop culture on world pop culture is gigantic. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
  3. Notable impact. starship.paint (RUN) 15:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  4. This is fair for VA5. SnowFire (talk) 19:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  5. Consider also moving Tokusatsu to be a child of this 3df (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
  6. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add magical girl

PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

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From the discussion in anime and manga section, several people suggested this should be vital and I concur. Influential genra (Sailor Moon is V5). 34 interwikis, 544 pageviews daily. Seems vital. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. SnowFire (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support I've recently been thinking of proposing Cardcaptor Sakura for being swapped out (most probably with Berserk (manga)) and the addition of this would counterbalance it in terms of coverage of the genre.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Kaiju

PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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Another major Japanese genre with significant influence on popcultur. 29 interwikis, over 2k pageviews daily. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. SnowFire (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Totalibe (talk) 23:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 05:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Stuff to consider

A to-do list of stuff to vote on... I'll try to write up stats and rationale in the foreseeable future, feel free to jump in and propose voting for stuff earlier. Some of those are debatable, sure, but I think there are few "doh!" gems here... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

SF tropes: Mad scientist, First contact (science fiction), Extraterrestrials in fiction (aka aliens in fiction; Extraterrestrial life   4 is V4), Apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction   5, Social science fiction, Military science fiction, Telepathy   5, Clairvoyance, Telekinesis, Precognition, Cyberspace   5, Space travel in science fiction (disclaimer: I wrote that one).

And some science concepts that are popular in sf but not vital yet: Mind uploading, Brain–computer interface   5, Terraforming, Generation ship, Artificial gravity   5, Asteroid mining   5, Self-replicating machine, Nanorobotics, Molecular assembler, Molecular machine   5, Space elevator, Megastructure, Dyson sphere, Matrioshka brain, Faster-than-light   5.

More general science: Self-replication   5, Emerging technologies   5, Technological convergence   5, Simulation hypothesis   5.

Reduce museum quota

Latest comment: 8 months ago20 comments8 people in discussion
The quotas are gone, so this discussion is moot. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:54, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

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I love museums, but hmmm, 125 seems too much - as the discussion just above illustrates, most of those listed are local, not even regional, with less then a century of history. It is also quite weird that 'Cultural venues' lists only specific musems (the section is also listing general concepts for music venues, opera houses and such). I'd suggest pruning museums by half or so to 60, perhaps giving 10-20? to those other venues (Sydney Opera House   4 is listed under architecture, the only other opera house we list is Oslo Opera House   5). Side note: weird pro-Russia bias in that section, Russia gets 9 museums, comparable to traditionally biased UK (11) - compare to the rest of Western Europe (13) and Central Europe (14)... PS. In case museum is now a subquota and irrelevant, then what we should cut down might be the quota for Cultural venues? PPS. In case this is irrelevant too, then let's just vote on removing few dozen stubby regional museums below. -Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Support the general idea of reducing the number of museums and adding notable examples of other types of cultural venues. I'm not sure if I would want to go down to 60 though. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 18:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss

I haven't looked into other articles, but Concertgebouw, Amsterdam   5 is a concert hall that is listed under Museums. We should probably add a header for "Specific cultural venues" instead of placing them under Museums. In fact, I'll do it now, feel free to revert. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 10:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Moscow Museum of Modern Art

PASSED
Removed 4-0. feminist🚰 (talk) 07:07, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

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Getting the ball rolling. 5 interwikis, opened in 1999. Niche, not vital. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 10:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. I can't even tell if it is notable, let alone vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Menshikov Palace (Saint Petersburg)

Removed 6-0. starship.paint (RUN) 09:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Just a palace (Russia has hundred similar ones, Europe likely a thousand). Branch of Hermitage Museum   4, not important enough to merit seperate coverage (article is barely more than a stub). I am not sure HM should be V4, but that's for another discussion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:14, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 10:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:31, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Move subcultures from Sociology to Society/Groups; move some quota from psychology to sociology

Latest comment: 8 months ago19 comments5 people in discussion

TL;DR: Sociology is at quota (60/60), Psychology unfairly IMHO has a much larger quota (220) that it does not even use right now (184/220). Some entries from sociology and society need to be swapped and psychology should share some of its unused quota space with sociology.

Sociology states "This section contains 60 articles out of a quota of 60.". Which may have some balance issue considering that Psychology has a quota of 220 articles. Further, a third of sociology quota is eaten by a list of subcultures. I am sorry, but concepts like Furry fandom or Hippie are vital, but they should not be eating the quota of sociology. Those belong to Society/Groups where I propose moving them. This will fill up Society (currently under quota, "This section contains 186 articles out of a quota of 200."). Second, I suggest moving some unused psychology quota ("This section contains 184 articles out of a quota of 220") to society topics.

As an additional illustration why this is needed - sociology has plenty of VA4 entries with no subarticles. As a sociologist I can easily think of dozens key theories and concepts that should be listed at V5 (several - about 10 - are listed under ambiguous main section for society, up to and including Society   1 and should be moved to sociology; FYI the basic definition of sociology is the study of society). What concepts - I'll propose some next year, but for example, we do not list many major branches of sociology (ex. Sociology of religion - 36 interwikis, Sociology of education - 35, Sociology of law - 31, Economic sociology - 31, Urban sociology - 28, Sociology of the family - 27, Sociology of culture, etc.). Those should be added to V5 (I'll note that psychology lists many of its branches, such as Psychology of religion   4 - which is totally fine, but if we list psych of rel. we should list soc. of rel. too.). For an example of a major sociological theory missing from vital right now I'd point for example to Rational choice theory (30 interwikis). Or methodological concept of {{VA link}Discourse analysis}} (40 interwikis). I am sorry, to have sociological quota filled with furry fandom instead of such stuff is just... sigh.

To address this, I propose some minor quota readjustments and topical swaps. Nothing here will cause stuff to go over quota if executed, and all sections will still have some room to grow. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 1: move subcultures from Sociology to Society/Groups

MOVED
Nomination opened a month and a half ago. Last vote over a month ago. 4-0 --Makkool (talk) 21:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nom --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider   14:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Some subculture entries probably need to be cut anyway Totalibe (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion
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Proposal 2: Move all 10 entries under Society to Sociology: (Society (Level 1), Civil society (Level 4), Institution (Level 4), Public (Level 4), Social norm (Level 4), Convention (norm), Social order (Level 4), Social structure, Solidarity (Level 4), Societal collapse, Stateless society)

MOVED
Nomination opened two months ago. Last vote 12 days ago. 4-0 --Makkool (talk) 17:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nom --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nom Totalibe (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support --Makkool (talk) 21:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
  1. Not too sure, civil society, institution, stateless society are all concepts that are not necessarily from sociology. The Blue Rider   14:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    @The Blue Rider For what it is worth, I am, professionally, a sociologist, and I think this field is most relevant for such concepts. Most are basic elements of stuff we teach students during the introduction to sociology courses and feature prominently in introductory textbooks for sociology :) As usual, vital suffers from one-dimensional categorization, so no solution is perfect, but that group is simply not even defined where it is, whereas it would fit well with general concepts under sociology. I mean, what plausible reason is there to have social norm or social structure there (at society) instead of together with concepts like social control or socialization, which are at sociology? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
    Well, I learned about all these concepts from my International Relations's licentiate as well. I really don't think these are exclusive to sociology, the "society" category at least would be sort of neutral. The Blue Rider   12:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
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Proposal 3: Reduce Psychology quota from 220 to 200, increase Sociology quota from 60 to 80

The quotas are gone, so this discussion is moot. --Makkool (talk) 21:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nom --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider   14:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom Totalibe (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion
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Discussion

Remove the following films

Latest comment: 8 months ago60 comments16 people in discussion

This is partially related to my proposal above to #Add the following sf films (that have 40-70 interwikis), while maintaining quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

PASSED
Only two supports for swap against 4 for straigh-up removal. The Blue Rider   13:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove The Human Condition (film series)

Just 10 interwikis. Perhaps influential in Japan, although the article does not make even that very clear. Not very influential elsewhere. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Even the Japanese article does not establish vitality. starship.paint (RUN) 13:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. With acclaim but not top importance for field czar 06:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support swap for Harakiri (1962 film) (by the same director) - upon checking the filmography I realized he also directed this film, which is to quote the article "often considered one of the best samurai pictures ever made as well as one of the greatest films ever made". This seems much better as am alternative. Iostn (talk) 13:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. Support swap for Harakiri (1962 film) per Iostn. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
  1. Don't actually know if this passes the threshold, but this is a highly-acclaimed film (series) that has continued to recieve critical acclaim (including a release from Criterion Collection), even if it has become somewhat overlooked by the more general public (also note very high ratings on places such as Letterboxd). Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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Remove The Story of the Kelly Gang

PASSED
4–0. Makkool (talk) 19:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

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"the world's first full-length narrative feature film", mostly lost. Film history trivia, I fear. Just 13 interwikis. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. --Thi (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Weaker case than Roundhay Garden Scene   5, I think. Totalibe (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support Feature-length films would've probably existed anyway even if this never existed (From Feature film#History: There was no sudden increase in the running times of films to the present-day definitions of feature-length; the "featured" film on a film program in the early 1910s gradually expanded from two to three to four reels.), plus the definition is rather nebulous (From Feature film#Description: The notion of how long a feature film should be has varied according to time and place.).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Contempt (film)   5

Not added as only 1-4 in favour. starship.paint (RUN) 14:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

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34 interwikis. Some minor legacy, but nothing major, at least, the article does not make a good case. Inclusion on two "Top 100" lists but those are dime a dozen and not that consistent. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose Ranks in top 50 of the "They Shoot Pictures, Don't They?" list, which is compiled from a LOT of best-films-of-all-time lists.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose This is one of the most well-known films from one of the most important filmmakers of the 20th century. Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Canon in film school programs czar 06:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Roundhay Garden Scene   5

FAILED
2–3. Makkool (talk) 19:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

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Another film history trivia: "believed to be the oldest surviving film". Is this enough to be vital? Not significant otherwise. 44 interwikis. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. It would be one thing if this were to be a long film, but this is three seconds long. How much can even be written about three seconds? starship.paint (RUN) 13:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Very notable film in film history. Despite being three seconds, this was the first piece of media (that we know of) to convey that a story could be told with video. It also on the core list for Wikiproject Film and considered of high importance on Wikiproject France. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. I think this should be listed for the same reason Spacewar!   5 is Totalibe (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Seems vital per Aurangzebra.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:20, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Hoop Dreams

PASSED
Removed 5-3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:57, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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14 interwikis. Documentary. What makes it vital? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. A good film, but I am not sure about lasting international impact. starship.paint (RUN) 13:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Support, but I do feel that the film quota needs to be increased, which could lead to this film being readded. Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
  5. Notable but no lasting vitality. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose This film has been selected for the National Film Registry. Experts think it is vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
    There are 875 films in the Registry, we can't list them all, we have to prioritise.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger Pinging so you can consider the above. I'd be happy to list them all at V6 in few years :P Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
    We are never going to have a V6. Having spent a couple of months here at V5, I understand why. I'll be pushing hard for the VA equivalent of a cost of living adjustment. We need quota as new subjects arise and I will probably try to move towards incremental expansion in 2nd half of 2024. It is going to pass. I want my objection on the record.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. It was widely acclaimed, won several awards, made several year-end lists, was listed on the National Film Registry and lead to the Academy Awards nomination process being revised. I think it makes the list for those reasons. Feel free to ping me if you disagree. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
    Pinging @LaukkuTheGreit, Starship.paint, and Totalibe: so that they can reconsider their votes. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
    I mean, I should've probably clarified that my support is fairly weak as this is a fairly significant work, my support only really lies on there being other pending additions and the section being at quota. I do think cinema probably needs a higher quota, for example it has 200 compared to video games at 105 despite being something like three times older as a medium and therefore having a longer history with more potential inclusions having had a chance to make a bigger impact over time. Totalibe (talk) 15:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
    To clarify, my position is that this should stay and we should find other films to remove. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
    Have considered again but still believe in my rationale. starship.paint (RUN) 01:38, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. I think 6 documentaries is the right amount of documentaries for the movie quota and I think Hoop Dreams is among the top 6 most vital documentaries in history. I would also support a swap with Bowling for Columbine which is similarly considered one of the best documentaries of all time but has a more enduring cultural legacy. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:17, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove WALL-E or swap for Ghost in the Shell (1995 film)

PASSED
Removed 4–0, not swapped 2-2. Makkool (talk) 19:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

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(Note I proposed adding GitS above). Anyway, WALL-E is IMHO the weakest entry in the 10 animation filmns we have. It was the best animation film or 2008, but there's not much else to say. Its lead claims it is one of the great animations, but it is not mentioned in List_of_films_considered_the_best#Animation_(shorts_and_features) which instead lists several others (it is quite arbitrary IMHO). Instaed, GitS can point to having "a cult following... considered to be one of the best anime and science-fiction films of all time. It inspired filmmakers such as the Wachowskis... James Cameron described it as "the first truly adult animation film to reach a level of literary and visual excellence." The film received numerous accolades and was nominated five Annie Award categories (including Best Animated Feature) in 24th Annie Awards, making it the most nominations for a Japanese animated film ever at the awards." --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. WALL-E wasn't even the highest-grossing Pixar film of the 2000s (compare Monsters, Inc., The Incredibles or Up (2009 film), the latter of which I think may actually have a good shot at vitality). Totalibe (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support Remove Wall-E, Oppose Swap GitS. I agree Wall-E is not as notable as the rest of this list but there are so many movies that are more vital than Ghost in the Shell in the animated category. I would recommend a swap with Fantasia (1940 film), which is considered one of the greatest animated films of all time and whose cultural legacy has stretched to include video games, amusement park rides, and a live concert series. It has an enduring international legacy. It also has more than twice as many interwikis as GitS (68 vs 33). I'm also a fan of using the aggregator They Shoot Pictures, don't they? as the definitive source of critical rankings (obviously critical reception isn't the only criterion but it's an important one). Here is their list of the top 10 animated films:
Movie
Spirited Away
My Neighbor Totoro
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Fantasia
Pinocchio
Grave of the Fireflies
Prince Mononoke
Wall-E
Tale of Tales
Bambi

Ghost in the Shell is 43rd. I'd also be willing to swap in Pinocchio (84 interwikis), Grave of the Fireflies (49 interwikis), or even Tale of Tales (1979 film) if we want some diversity outside of Disney + Pixar + anime. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:38, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

  1. Support removal WALL-E is a rather recentist addition in my estimation. IIRC it was practically used to replace without discussion Who Framed Roger Rabbit which we used to list.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Sherlock Jr.

Removed 4-1. starship.paint (RUN) 14:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

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The weakest IMHO entry in comedy, just 26 interwikis. Well received classic but less known, or awarded, than many other movies, including some I proposed to add a bit above. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Its AFI ranking is not proof of vitality; not top importance in field czar 06:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. It’s not like it’s in the upper half of the AFI list. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. We'll still have three other silent comedies (two from Chaplin and one other from Keaton). --Makkool (talk) 13:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. WP:LEAD makes a strong case for vitality.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:27, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Various Sports equipment

Latest comment: 8 months ago34 comments8 people in discussion

Currently sports equipment is below quota (27/30) (although its parent subcategory of Sports is over quota (548/525) and Sports, games and recreation section of Everyday life is over quota (1227/1200))

Add Jockstrap

Not added 2-2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. starship.paint (RUN) 16:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Not a widely used piece of equipment. The Blue Rider   10:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Too niche compared to other types of underwear we list at level 5. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 17:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Shoulder pad (sport)

NOT ADDED
Not added 1-3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Too niche. starship.paint (RUN) 16:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per Startship.paint. The Blue Rider   10:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
    These are used broadly across contact sports.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
    Most contact sports don't use them though. The Blue Rider   10:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per TBR. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Add Glove (ice hockey)

FAILED
The Blue Rider   13:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
Oppose
  1. Too specific type of gloves; Ice hockey   4 and Glove   4 already cover this well. The Blue Rider   13:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. per TBR and Carlwev. starship.paint (RUN) 16:12, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. per TBR and Carlwev. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. per TBR and Carlwev. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Neutral
  1. As nom. Glove   4 and Baseball glove   5 are listed, I am neutral, because I would like to see a glove (sports) article that includes a host of other sports seen at Glove#Sport and recreational. This is the most important non-listed one.
Discuss

Sport glove may be a worth while article, also, my first thought is, if any one kind of sport glove was vital, it would be boxing glove.  Carlwev  14:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Jersey (clothing)

PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Used in a wide variety of sports, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 16:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Poor article but the concept is relatively popular. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Per above. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Goaltender mask

FAILED
Not added, 1-3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:20, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Too niche. starship.paint (RUN) 16:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Per starship.paint. The Blue Rider   10:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per Carlwev. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 17:50, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss

I am aware this would be in another section, but as far as I can tell we do not list goalkeeper or any other types like goaltender or Goalkeeper (association football). Goal keeper used to be in level 4. Article seems more substantial.  Carlwev  07:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Sports bra

PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. As nominator -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:50, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Important clothing for around half of our population when doing many sports. starship.paint (RUN) 16:13, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Reasonable addition to counter systemic bias related to Wikipedia not being representative to said half of our population. Can always swap later. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Per above. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Swap Strawberry Fields Forever for Loveless (album)

Latest comment: 8 months ago8 comments7 people in discussion
6-0 to remove SFF, 5-1 to add L. starship.paint (RUN) 14:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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As it stands the Beatles are highly overrepresented under "specific musical works". Under "rock" alone, there are 8 songs/albums by them out of a total of 52, an additional entry (Yesterday (song)) under pop, plus Imagine (a John Lennon solo single). As influential as the Beatles were, this definitely seems like overkill. Its hard to pick out a single entry to remove, but I decided upon Strawberry Fields Forever as its an entry from their late career which is itself overrepresnted within the Beatles works that made it on here. A Day in the Life has lower pageviews, but I assume that is because it was album-only and it has apparently been often-appraised as the definitive Beatles song. SFF I'm not convinced is not that much more vital than other well-known Beatles songs such as Yellow Submarine (song) or Eleanor Rigby.

Loveless (album) is one of the most highly-acclaimed albums of all time, in terms of sales it didn't sell massively (there's more about the record label situation on the page itself) but its one that has maintained a consistent, long-term reputation for a long time. I had also considered Daydream Nation which is in kind of a similar but Loveless seems to supercede it in both critical reception and pageviews. Totalibe (talk) 21:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support --Makkool (talk) 09:46, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support remove. Not Sure SFF is much more vital than its B-side.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support swap czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support swap Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add The Last of Us

Latest comment: 9 months ago7 comments6 people in discussion
NOT ADDED
Not added 3-2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

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TLOU is easily more notable than some of the games already on the list, it's one of the most acclaimed games ever, it spawned a franchise, and it's probably in the top 5 most famous games of the 2010s. We can use it to replace something else if we're worried about the quota

I've yet to play it myself, so I'm not really biased here. Kevinishere15 (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. as nom Kevinishere15 (talk) 00:37, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Conditional on there being quota, while also beliving that we need to slash quota for videogames down. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Several video games and a TV series. Very popular. Could potentially be a swap if needed. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I have trouble seeing most video-games vital, specially recent ones. The Blue Rider   00:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Too recent. I think we should carefully consider adding anything from 2010s, especially popular entertainment. --Makkool (talk) 08:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Acer Inc.

Latest comment: 8 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion
PASSED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Acer is the world's 6th-largest PC vendor by unit sales as of September 2022. We do not need to list six vendors of personal computers, considering that functionally they are largely interchangeable, and the fact that it's a declining market.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 00:09, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Siemens Mobility, Bombardier Transportation, GE Transportation, and Transmashholding

Latest comment: 8 months ago7 comments6 people in discussion
Removed Bombardier 4-1, removed the others 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Transport is way overrepresented in the companies list, and other than CRRC, Alstom and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (whose articles indicate that they have large, diversified manufacturing operations), I'm not seeing anything that makes any of the other rolling stock manufacturers we list vital.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. damn I can't even fathom why some of these were added. Remove all Remove all except Bombardier Transportation Aurangzebra (talk) 10:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 12:50, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Randomly came across an article today that talked about Bombardier Transportation and decided to change my vote on it. Went down a brief rabbit hole and learned that they have constructed rolling stock for use in public transit systems on every continent and that many iconic rapid transit car designs were from Bombardier (think the old NYC subway cars, the London Underground metro cars, the Walt Disney World monorail etc.). Though they have since been bought by Alstom, they were notable in their own right during their peak to warrant inclusion. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:31, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Mixed
Discuss
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Add Aachen Cathedral

Latest comment: 8 months ago8 comments6 people in discussion
Added 4-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Famous German cathedral. It was one of the first UNESCO World Heritage Sites. It was rated High-Importance by the Architecture and Germany WikiProjects, proving its importance.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Conditional support if there is quota space. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
    User:Piotrus, Can you clarify your vote. Currently Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Arts is 3325/3300. We no longer have subsection quotas. Are you neutral? oppose? is the overage too insignificant to stand in the way of support?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    If we are over quota, then I am not supporting this. Would consider a swap but none was proposed. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:18, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
    I will read that as neutral but would consider a reasonable swap.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. Weak support. J947 ‡ edits 23:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Totalibe (talk) 10:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss
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Add German idealism

Latest comment: 8 months ago7 comments6 people in discussion
Added 4-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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German Idealism deserves a spot in VA5. It's a pivotal movement in philosophy, influencing how we perceive reality and knowledge. It laid the groundwork for modern philosophical discourse, with key figures like Kant, Hegel, and Schopenhauer making significant contributions. The Blue Rider   17:45, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. The Blue Rider   17:45, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. We have German philosophy already – there is some overlap – but support as philosophy is another area that is severely underrepresented at VA5 in comparison to VA4 (just 200 articles, of which 98 are VA4 or higher). J947 ‡ edits 03:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. This was a major school of thought that had a major influence on modern philosophy. wrt it overlapping with Philosophy of Germany, its a movement that arose in Germany, it isn't the same thing as a specific subset of philosophy in Germany, it very much is an entity in of itself. Totalibe (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
  1. Probably. I'll ping an editor I know is interested in philosophy topics so they can comment on this and related issues below: User:Nihil novi. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
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Add Scottish Enlightenment

Latest comment: 8 months ago9 comments6 people in discussion
Added 4-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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In the light of German idealism, the Scottish Enlightenment is also of extreme importance. A major intellectual movement of the 18th century, its thinkers, such as Adam Smith and David Hume, laid the groundwork for modern philosophy, economics, and politics. The Blue Rider   19:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator. The Blue Rider   19:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. J947 ‡ edits 02:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss

I'd support it but I'd also like to see some Scottish towns removed... cross-topical swap. IMHO Scottish Enlightenment is much more important than some regional towns nobody outside UK ever heard of. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Declaring Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, and Stirling as places nobody outside the UK has ever heard of is very shortsighted. I'd expect significantly more people to have heard of the first two than the Scottish Enlightenment, not that well-knownness is anything more than an inconsistent correlator with vitality. J947 ‡ edits 02:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Agreed. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
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Remove Baladi

Latest comment: 8 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion
REMOVED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Egyptian folk dance. Just 4 interwikis and 45 daily page views. While I support adding more global topics and countering sysbias, nothing in this article suggests this is vital. Just a minor regional custom, and according to the article, it seems to be just a century old or so. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nominator --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support from my understanding this is Egyptian bellydance. Although Belly dance   4 is Level 4 and this is a subtopic, Music of Egypt   5 has been added at this level, which I think is sufficient. Gizza (talk) 04:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss
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Museums in Singapore

Latest comment: 8 months ago42 comments9 people in discussion

Singapore (pop. 5.92M) does not need five museums listed, especially when each one of them other than National Museum of Singapore   5 have a relatively short history.

Remove ArtScience Museum

PASSED
Removed 7-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:36, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

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It's the most viewed out of the five museums in Singapore that we list, but it's merely part of Marina Bay Sands (which we don't list) and has the shortest history out of the Singaporean museums.

Support
  1. Support as nominator, though I won't necessarily be opposed to a swap with Marina Bay Sands, considering that there is no Asian representation on WP:Vital articles/Level/5/Everyday life/Sports, games and recreation#Specific amusement parks. However, I'm not convinced we need this many amusement parks, to be honest. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support swap with Marina Bay Sands or removal. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  7. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Asian Civilisations Museum

PASSED
Removed 6-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Support
  1. Support as nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove National Museum of Singapore   5

FAILED
Kept 1-5. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Support
  1. Support, I think we should drastically reduce the museums we list as vital --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
    Then perhaps you should take a look at U.S. or Europe. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
    I might make a proposal to swap this with some other museum from Asia. --Makkool (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
    Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
    @Tabu Makiadi: - feminist actually opposed this one. See below. starship.paint (RUN) 00:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
    @Starship.paint: My mistake. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. If we are to keep a museum in Singapore, this should be it imo, given that it has the longest history and second-highest page views. Placing this here as an option if others think differently. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Oppose - given its history and given that it helps to address systemic bias (the U.S. has more museums than Asia). starship.paint (RUN) 14:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. Oppose unless a swap for another museum in Asia is proposed. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Peranakan Museum

PASSED
Removed 6-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Support
  1. Support as nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  7. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Singapore Art Museum

PASSED
Removed 6-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Support
  1. Support as nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support --Makkool (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Removing sports teams due to quota

Latest comment: 8 months ago47 comments11 people in discussion

We are over quota in sports teams (58/50 articles). Proposing 7 removals, will look for one more later. starship.paint (RUN) 14:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Remove Chelsea F.C.

PASSED
Removed 3-1. Note that discussions opened before 20:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC) may pass with only 3 support votes. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:36, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Per List of football clubs in England by competitive honours won#Summary totals, Chelsea have simply not been as successful as the other listed level 5 teams. Chelsea have 34 trophies, compared to Arsenal's 49, Manchester United's 67, and Liverpool F.C.'s 68. Association football has more than twice the number of sports teams in Level 5 than any other sport (14 versus 6 at the most), so prime target to trim. starship.paint (RUN) 14:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Chelsea only became a powerhouse during the Roman Abramovic era which is way too recent to be considered vital. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Oppose to this one - Chelsea had a strong effect on the financial side of the game both with Abramovich's acquisition in the 2000's and then Boehly's and co acquisition in the 2020's. Satisfies VA on other merits then the sporting results. Respublik (talk) 18:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
    I think Paris Saint-Germain is a much better example of the global financialization of soccer. In fact, that's why I assume they're on this list - besides this fact, they don't have any of the historicity or accolades that other teams on this list have (they are the most successful French team in history but 90% of that has come in the last decade). Also, the phenomenon of global financialization in soccer started occuring before Abramovic - in fact, it is the primary reason why the English Premier League was created in the first place in 1992, the recognition that clubs were business ventures that needed to make profits. Chelsea is not the first, nor is it the most compelling example of this. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
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Remove Borussia Dortmund

PASSED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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Per List of football clubs in Germany by major honours won, Dortmund has won 22 honours compared to fellow Level 5 club Bayern Munich's 83 honours. It's far less, Dortmund are closer to the rest of the clubs than to Munich. starship.paint (RUN) 14:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Agree. I think this and Chelsea are both cases of recency bias. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove SKA Saint Petersburg

PASSED
Removed 4-0. Note that discussions opened before 20:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC) had no policy against rush closes. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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Russian ice hockey team founded in 1946, but apparently never competed in a league final until 2014-2015. Not a huge amount of success, really, you can compare to HC CSKA Moscow (which is not Level 5), due to parent club CSKA Moscow being Level 5. starship.paint (RUN) 14:37, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:37, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Ospreys (rugby union)

PASSED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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Welsh rugby union team founded in 2003. Per United Rugby Championship#By championship wins, the Ospreys have only been half as successful (5 trophies versus 10 trophies) as the most successful team in the league, Leinster Rugby (level 5). Simply not as significant?

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove South Africa national cricket team

PASSED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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They have 2 honours only per South Africa national cricket team#Honours. You can compare to West Indies cricket team#Honours (5+), England cricket team#Honours (4+), Australia national cricket team#Honours (10+), India national cricket_team#Honours (6+). starship.paint (RUN) 14:49, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:49, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support because they are the weakest team listed (just) but number of honours (1, not 2, by the way) is a silly concept in cricket (and in any sport, but definitely in cricket). Not in the least because the first honour-bestowing event they played was in 1992, over a century from their international debut. They are the 3rd or 4th best team in cricket history. J947 ‡ edits 22:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Chicago Cubs

NO CONSENSUS
Not removed 3-3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

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Notable for not winning titles: 108-year World Series championship drought ... record droughts in Major League Baseball. The 108-year drought was also the longest such occurrence in all major sports leagues in the United States and Canada. Only 11th in the List of World Series champions#World Series records by franchise. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. Support, but alternately propose a swap with Philadelphia Phillies Part of the reason for the Cubs' inclusion has got to be their age, as the drought began before 14 MLB franchises even existed, and before several more moved to their present locales. The Cubs are not the losingest team in pro sports (any sport, any country, any time), that distinction is the Phillies, who own the losingest title in part due to being a very old team by pro sports standards. pbp 03:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Cubs have legacy importance as the team of the Midwestern United States because WGN-TV was included in cable packages throught the midwest (if not nationally). When I was in business school at Ross School of Business in the 1990s, which is firmly in the Detroit Tigers market, we had WGN on our cable bundle. This is similar to the importance of the St. Louis Cardinals as the furthest south and west MLB team until 1959 so they had lots of fans. Both the Cubs and Cardinals. Have lots of fans whose fathers and grandfathers grew up rooting for them due to geographical marketing expanse. P.S. the Phillies would not be the best swap candidate. The next most important baseball franchise would be the Los Angeles Dodgers (The broke the color barrier with Jackie Robinson and were the first team west of St. Louis along with the San Francisco Giants helping to make the sport a national sport along two dimensions). In fact the Dodgers may be in the top 4 MLB teams. I would rank the Dodgers as 2nd or 3rd behind the Yankees and possibly Red Sox.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
    P.S. the rise of regional sports networks such as Big Ten Network and some of the Fox Sports channels has probably led to a diminished importance of WGN.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Agree with everything @TonyTheTiger said. As a pretty diehard baseball fan, I think it is pretty objectively Yankees first and Dodgers second (I say this begrudgingly as a San Francisco Giants fan). I would say Boston Red Sox next, followed by Chicago Cubs. I think they are more significant historically than the Cardinals. I would recommend keeping the Cubs and removing the Cardinals. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:44, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Per above. Would rather remove the Cardinals. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 22:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Discuss
  1. I have nominated the Los Angeles Dodgers below. Not sure whether the Cubs are less important than the Cardinals or Red Sox in terms of a potential swap.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
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Remove Z-Boys

PASSED
Removed 4-0. 𝒻eminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

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Group of American skateboarders. 7 interwikis only, few. Many members do not even have articles. How can this compare to teams like Manchester United or New York Yankees? starship.paint (RUN) 14:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Support. Can always be swapped back in if someoen cares to explain why, but for now, support enforcing quota. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. pbp 03:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
  4. per nom. Respublik (talk) 18:27, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Backpacking (travel)  5

Latest comment: 8 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion
ADDED
Added 5-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Backpacking is a common form of tourism. The recreation and tourism section is currently dominated by amusement park topics.

Support
  1. As nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider   22:14, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. I proposed some other forms of tourism below. Agreed that amusement park topics are disproportionately represented here. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:19, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:08, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion
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Remove Space hopper

Latest comment: 8 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion
REMOVED
Removed 4-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Another not particularly well known toy, this one has 5 interwikis but just 67 daily page views, and nothing in the text suggests it is vital. "sold steadily" is the best claim for "fame" I see here and that's not enough IMHO. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. I think this is a pretty famous toy, perhaps not a classic as some other toys though. The Blue Rider   12:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. not vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion
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Add À la carte

Latest comment: 8 months ago5 comments4 people in discussion
PASSED
Added 4-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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A common way food is ordered and served at restaurants.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Per nom Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. V5 concept, probably. Weak support. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Dive bar

Latest comment: 8 months ago6 comments5 people in discussion
PASSED
Removed 5-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:52, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Loosely defined (per the article: The precise definition of a dive bar is rarely agreed on, and is the subject of spirited debates.) Only five interwikis, and appears to be a somewhat niche concept.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 10:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. Seems too niche. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. We already have Tavern   5, Pub   5 and Bar (establishment)   4 - this is very well covered already. starship.paint (RUN) 09:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Not a significant type of drinking establishment. Gizza (talk) 09:11, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Remove Ossetian cuisine

Latest comment: 8 months ago7 comments5 people in discussion
PASSED
Removed 5-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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There are only around 700k Ossetians, and nothing about their cuisine particularly stands out to me. No Ossetian food types even have articles. This kind of stuff is for V6 and lower, not V5. It hasn't even been assessed on WP:FOOD.Vileplume (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
  2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:54, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. No indication of importance, although I would support adding Ossetians to the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion
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Add Vacation  5

Latest comment: 8 months ago7 comments5 people in discussion
PASSED
Added 6-0. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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A very common practice. Place this under Working time   5.

Support
  1. Nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 15:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
  2. I support the nomination, although I wonder if this would be better placed in the "Sports, games and recreation" category alongside Tourism   3. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
    That's a good option too. feminist🚰 (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support, place in Sports, games and recreation. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. per nom, fine with either placement Aurangzebra (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Per Feminist. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:21 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Nonviolent resistance  5 and/or Nonviolence  5

Latest comment: 8 months ago8 comments6 people in discussion
Added both 5-0. starship.paint (RUN) 14:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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The first is a pretty basic concept related to Social movement   4. The second is more of a philosophy. 35 interwikis for Nonviolent resistance, 47 for Nonviolence. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. As nom --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:54, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Eh, I would add both. The Blue Rider   22:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Add both Totalibe (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
  4. Add both Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:06, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion
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Add Scam to Crimes against property

Latest comment: 8 months ago8 comments8 people in discussion
ADDED
Added 7-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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Scams involve over a trillion dollars each year.

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  2. How is scam not already listed? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Support--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 16:04, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. I wonder when we will stop facepalming ourselves due to missing obviously vital concepts (that probably should be at V4...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
  7. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discuss
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Add Greeting card

Latest comment: 8 months ago8 comments6 people in discussion
ADDED
Added 5-0. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 08:27, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

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Support
  1. Support as nom  Carlwev  16:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Weak support. 33 interwikis, long histry that starts with Ancient Egypt, and still common. The question is do we have room for that? And is 'everyday life' the best section? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:25, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 02:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Should definitely be included. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. Support this general card (although maybe not Christmas, Thank You, Birthday, Get well, etc.).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Discussion

@Carlwev: I would like to close this discussion, but where should the article be listed specifically? Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add basic Latin script letters

Latest comment: 8 months ago21 comments12 people in discussion
FAILED
The Blue Rider   13:04, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

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With Latin script as parent. In English, general encyclopedias do tend to have articles about the letters, often as the first page of each volume. I wasn't able to find any past nomination for V5 (though it's a big haystack to look through, and digits 0 to 9 were added). This would be 26 additions:

Support
  1. Support as nom 3df (talk) 09:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Leaning support. Ping me before this closes if it is on the bubble.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger: It is on the bubble. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
    I am still having trouble committing to 26 slots for the alphabet. I was close to supporting, but I guess i don't.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support. We could get room for these, if my removal suggestions from linguistics get traction. --Makkool (talk) 12:50, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. For the English Wikipedia, yes. feminist🚰 (talk) 05:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. We should not have this much Anglocentric/Eurocentric bias. I’d remove most, if not all of the articles in the section titled The English Language if it was up to me. I’m pretty sure characters are also low importance in the WikiProject. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. I am not concerned about bias - those letters are known in countries with other script systems and are common symbols. But do we really want to give 20-30 quota slots to this? I don't see what those articles cover that is not covered by Latin script   3 and Letter (alphabet)   4 and similar. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
  3. This seems like a waste of slots. Why would we give up 26 spots to this instead of 26 other, more varied topics? QuicoleJR (talk) 22:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
  4. Waste of slots, covered by the script article. starship.paint (RUN) 02:44, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
  5. No. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:25, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
  6. Per Piotrus. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
  1. Then do we have to do the Greek alphabet too Alpha through Omega?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
    We're not required to add them too, but we could evaluate if we should. I even think it'd be okay if only some of the more globally important Greek letters like Sigma, Lambda and Omega were listed in the future, if any at all. By comparison, the modern Latin letters have all been thoroughly integrated around the world, even where they're not used for writing text. 3df (talk) 02:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
    Latin script   3, Latin alphabet   5, Greek alphabet   3. Just clarifying what is already listed. Not sure I understand the difference between the script and alphabet.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
    @TonyTheTiger There is also Latin-script alphabet. I am not a linguist so I am not sure if all three should or shouldn't exist. But you might have identified a V3 issue: do we really need both Latin script and Latin alphabet at V3?? I think a case could be made to downgrade Latin alphabet (29 interwikis) to V5; Latin script with 171 interwikis seems to be the dominant concept here. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
    WP:VA3 is not something that I am going to be a leader in tinkering with. This is especially true outside of my fields of comfort (sports, pop culture, the arts, Chicago, and New York State) I can render some technology opinions especially as broadly as VA defines it. It may be the case that the best people to figure this discussion and to open any related discussions may be found at WT:VA3. Drop them a not, but don't look to me for serious considerations on this matter.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
    Latin alphabet is VA5. J947 ‡ edits 03:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
    Yes but Latin script   3, Greek alphabet   3 and Letter (alphabet)   4 are all relevant considerations. This might best be resolved with VA3 level expertise.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
    Ah, my bad, then all's fine as far as I am concerned. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
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Add Los Angeles Dodgers

Latest comment: 8 months ago19 comments6 people in discussion
FAILED
The Blue Rider   13:10, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


There are currently 4 Major League Baseball teams listed New York Yankees   5, Boston Red Sox   5, St. Louis Cardinals, Chicago Cubs. One could make the case that the Dodgers are the most important baseball franchise for the three ways in which they made the sport a national sport. Before the franchise moved from Brooklyn to Los Angeles, they were the first team to employ Black player (Jackie Robinson). They were the first team along with the San Francisco Giants (who the Dodgers convinced to come west with them) to play in a market west or south of St. Louis. Although there were earlier games broadcast in Spanish, they were the first team to hire an announcer to cover the team in Spanish regularly (René Cárdenas). By being the first to move west (and south) the first to play a Black play and first to have regular Spanish language broadcast, they are as important as any other franchise except possibly the Yankees who have dominated the sport by a wide margin on the field. The Dodgers are about as successful as any other franchise on the field.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:34, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Support
  1. Support as nom. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:34, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. SUPPORT Swap with St. Louis Cardinals Absolutely insane to me that the Cubs and Cardinals are included here over the Dodgers. Anyone who knows anything about baseball knows this is untrue for the reasons User:TonyTheTiger mentions. The Dodgers are consistently the National League's powerhouses and frequently make splashy international signings which makes the Dodgers' influence known beyond the US (and with the historic Shohei Ohtani signing, this number will only grow). I would choose the Cardinals for removal over the Cubs because the Cubs have a larger legacy both internationally and within America than the Cardinals do. The Cubs have slightly more interwikis than the Cardinals, consistently get more pageviews than the Cardinals (the only times they don't are during the playoff months when the Cardinals qualify and they don't), and they make more frequent international signings (like Shota Imanaga just today!). If this thread doesn't gain more traction, I'll make a new SWAP one because I think this really deserves to be pushed through. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:01, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
  3. Support, would support as an addition or a swap with the Cardinals. QuicoleJR (talk) 03:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. The reasons provided seem trivial and we already list a comfortable number of baseball teams and take in mind that this is not a particularly popular sport worldwide comparatively. The Blue Rider   15:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
    User:The Blue Rider are you a white male, saying expanding the sport beyond white males was a trivial thing?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
    Not sure where you got the information that I'm a white male. The Blue Rider   10:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    To be fair, you've told Wikipedia that you're a male (test {{they|The Blue Rider}}) and your userpage suggests you're Spanish. J947 ‡ edits 10:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    Not sure I follow you, what do you mean I told Wikipedia my gender? I'm not Spanish either. The Blue Rider   10:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    Oh well, I tested it and yes I'm a male, but not sure what's the relevancy of my gender and nationality on whether to include the Los Angeles Dodgers. The Blue Rider   10:56, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
    Do you know baseball celebrates Jackie Robinson Day every year? Opening up baseball to Asians is almost as big. Also, since we have 4 teams, I am just saying give the Dodgers at least a top 4 position among baseball teams.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
    Maybe this would get more support as a swap? QuicoleJR (talk) 17:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
    I believe the Dodgers are the 2nd most important franchise for expanding the sport along so many dimensions (1st Black, 1st South Korean, 1st Taiwanese, and 2nd Japanese, but the 1st Japanese guy did not lead to an expansion of the sport) so I'd be happy to support a swap. I don't really think the Cubs are the least vital among the Cubs/Red Sox/Cardinals, but I may get more swap support for the Cubs. The current Cubs consensus is for removal.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
  2. Oppose, all the nominator mentions seems to be domestic related achievments and improvments. Baseball's worlwide popularity also hardly justifies that many teams. Respublik (talk) 18:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
    @Respublik: Would you support a swap with the St. Louis Cardinals? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
    User:Respublik, How are opening up major league baseball to foreign players (several Asian races) and becoming the first franchise to broadcast internationally to Spanish speaking countries throughout Latin America domestic accomplishments.
Discussion
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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