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Template:AfC submission/draft

Tracked in github.com
Issue #240

When an article is draftified, we typically need to manually insert the subjected template". IMO, there should be an option to add this template using the AFC script. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 13:07, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib: the User:MPGuy2824/MoveToDraft script adds that template automatically. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:18, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

DoubleGrazing, OK, but the AFC script should include this functionality as well. When articles are moved instead of draftified, the template still needs to be added manually. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 13:22, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Are you referring to the WP:AFCH script? It moves drafts to mainspace, not articles to draftspace, so I'm not sure I understand the suggestion. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:12, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Novem Linguae, I'm just suggesting that we include an option in this WP:AFCH script to insert template Template:AfC submission/draft or Template:Draft article. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 07:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Novem, AFCH is for accepting drafts and dealing with pages already in the pipeline; it's still a single edit and typing out {{afc submission/draft}} isn't that onerous. Primefac (talk) 22:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. I really like this idea. I even wrote a patch for it one time, but there was an objection so I had to abandon it. If folks want this I am happy to revive the patch. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Novem Linguae, Yes please do. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:54, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better to add the more generic {{Draft article}}, as AfC is not mandatory. – Joe (talk) 13:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

As mentioned on Github, this seems like scopecreep for the AFCH script. Mdann52 (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Too short

@North8000 said something at WT:N, in a different context, about wanting articles to have at least a bit of content (maybe a couple sentences or an image), and this has reminded me that I have a question about an item in Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewing instructions#Step 3: Suitability, "too short".

This item in the reviewing instructions says "Too short, but could be merged into Article" and "Decline the submission as too short and suggest a suitable title for the content to be merged into (if applicable). Generally, the author should be able to do this themselves."

My question: What's too short?

Let's say that the median Wikipedia article today contains n sentences of readable prose. What's the minimum? Does it need to be 50% as long as the median? At least as long as the median? Longer than the median? Are all stubs (generally, <250 words or <10 sentences) too short? Do reviewers all use the same standard? Does anyone even know? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

This decline rationale is designed for something like paragraph-long statements about a subject, but there is an existing article where that content could just as easily be added as a stand-alone section (or even as part of an existing section). In other words, this isn't really for all short submissions (we do accept stubs), but more for the ones of questionable notability where it would be a lot easier to just fold it into something that already exists.

As an arbitrary/hypothetical example, let's say we have University of Coolness, which has an article. Someone writes a draft about the School of Awesome, which is located at the UoC, but the draft itself is only about a paragraph long (though properly sourced). That would probably fall into this category of "short but could be merged", as it's not really long enough (or notable enough) to have its own article, but would be served reasonably well as a section on the main University's article (ostensibly with a redirect pointing to that section). Primefac (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to rename it to something like "Could be easily merged". That way nobody gets the idea that length is a requirement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

That's... exactly what the merge decline says... The proposed article does not have sufficient content to require an article of its own, but it could be merged into the existing article on the same subject. Since anyone can edit Wikipedia, you are welcome to add that information yourself. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 00:08, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

See [1] WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I also wonder whether this is the right approach. If the subject is notable, then why not accept the draft and immediately tag it for merging? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Usually these aren't yet shown to be notable. Rather than declining the article and sending the editor back through some unknown number of revise-and-declines, the merge decline tells them how to get their content onto wikipedia immediately, by editing another article. -- asilvering (talk) 16:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Is "shown to be notable" a requirement? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

For AfC acceptance? Yes. For merging? No. Hence my comment. -- asilvering (talk) 01:16, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

AFC is supposed to accept articles that will survive at AFD (right?).

AFD does not require that subjects be "shown" to be notable (though it certainly helps).

So... maybe AFC shouldn't actually have such a requirement, at least in theory? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

AfC reviewers are not obligated to do a full WP:BEFORE search that is expected of someone nominating an article for AfD. So an article needs to be shown to be notable to get through AfC, unless the reviewer goes out of their way to find and add some more sources (as I do often for books and profs articles, where notability is clear to me even in absence of sources in the draft). -- asilvering (talk) 05:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Any editor can help improve an article, of course, and Wikipedia is built on that sort of voluntary collaboration.

For a subject whose notability is clear to you (e.g., due to your personal knowledge), do you feel like the sources really must be added before you could move the draft to the mainspace? Do you feel like it would be a violation of the rules if you instead (e.g., because you didn't have the time right now) moved it to the mainspace and tagged it as {{sources exist}} or {{more refs}}? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Just noting, if one knows the subject is notable, then the reviewer in a way has done a sort of BEFORE. I think the assumption here is that the reviewer has no familiarity with the subject, and thus has the not-unreasonable option of declining a draft that does not appear (based on given references and text) to be notable. Primefac (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I'm asking this because Asilvering often goes out of their way to find and add some more sources for some books and profs articles whose notability is already obvious to them. Are they doing this because they feel that adding the sources is actually required, or just because they want to? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Precisely, Primefac. We cannot expect reviewers to go out of their way to determine notability before accepting AfC drafts. The backlog is long enough as it is. My reasons for adding sources that show notability are completely irrelevant to the question at hand. -- asilvering (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's irrelevant.

If you are adding them because you're nice, then thank you!

If you're adding them because you believe that it's required by AFC's rules, then maybe we should talk about whether AFC's rules are correct. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Archive 54#Google searches when reviewing? –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I like your edit. I also think this is the right approach. If a draft comes to AfC and you think it shouldn't be a mainspace article then I think the better solution has to be to decline it, rather than accept it then send it to another forum to try to remove it again.

I also agree with asilvering that it is helpful to encourage new editors to improve existing articles rather than them focussing only on creating new ones from scratch. Mgp28 (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't this create an unnecessary duplicate of an existing article? I think the status quo of keeping content that needs merging in draftspace is fine. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

If it gets merged, then theoretically we need the original/draft in the mainspace, for licensing purposes. AIUI this isn't legally required if all merged copyrighted content are also from the editor who does the merge (or if you follow one of the pre-approved alternative processes), but it is normal. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit looks good. I didn't realize the AFC page said this (I thought you were talking about the decline reasons in the template). The AFC page was probably just out of date. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

If the article is very short and there an obvious place to merge it to than I think that the merge would be a good idea. (and of course, if it fails wp:notability a separate article is not an option) But structurally, the official AFC pass criteria is a reasonable likelihood of surviving at AFD. And for credible candidates that criteria will typically be wp:notability. Actual AFC practice is that articles commonly get declined for other reasons and various template wordings contribute to that. So IMO, while a good plan, such should not be a decline reason.

My comment that you led with (I'm flattered :-)) was intended for a possible new SNG which was for a special case Where the accepted defacto notability bar is very low and greenlights millions of species that don't currently have articles. North8000 (talk) 15:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested § {{AfC submission}}

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested § {{AfC submission}}. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

How would someone call for a review of a probationary reviewer?

As per the title really, looked at a draft of an article that's "under review" and instead of making a decision the probationary reviewer (Ae245) has instead chosen to attempt to add biographical material to it from a clearly non-reputable source (thebiography.org).[2]

The site's "about" page alone screams "low grade" with numerous basic grammar mistakes[3] Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the first step is not to immediately call for them to be removed from the project; discuss the matter with them and see where they are coming from and if they appear receptive to the (hopefully constructive) criticism of their edits. Obviously, if that does not yield positive results, then a review can be done by me or any other admin who feels comfortable making that decision. If said admin does not remove and you do not agree (and/or said admin says more discussion is needed) then bringing it here for a wider project-based review is probably the best bet. You can, of course, come straight here for a wider project review, but please make sure that you let the reviewer in question know about the discussion so they can participate (on the off chance they don't watch this page or missed the discussion being posted). Primefac (talk) 23:19, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

@Primefac thanks for the reply, I'll leave a message on their talk page. Have to say though I'm very surprised at what I found given they added clearly unsuitable sources to establish WP:BLP material and then deemed the article acceptable for mainspace[4]. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

AFC Script comment on originator of draft

Tracked in github.com
Issue #361

The AFC script provides a comment if the originator of a draft is blocked, stating the duration of the draft, and the reason given by the administrator. I think that it needs one tweak. If the originator is partially blocked, it says that they are blocked, not that they are partially blocked. For instance, you can see this with Draft:Burnett Township, Santa Clara County, California. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I concur. A minor tweak is needed, please. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:11, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

{{Comment inline}}

FYI Template:Comment inline (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), a template used for the development of draft articles, has been nominated for deletion -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 06:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

5.43.87.31 and timestamps

5.43.87.31 (talk · contribs) modified date timestamps at WP:AFC/R into a different format with this edit. It was subsequently reverted. But if this wasn't caught, would this date format cause problems with the archival bot? -- 64.229.90.32 (talk) 05:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It would cause problems, but an edit like that is almost always going to be detected on such a widely watched page. That one in particular is also under a page protection where edits made by new or unregistered users need to be approved by a pending changes reviewer or administrator. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Second opinion(s), please

I was going to accept Draft:Victoria Starmer, because the sources look to me enough to pass GNG, and I couldn't find any major issues with it. Then I realised this had been draftified following this AfD only a month ago, and the sources back then were pretty much the same as now. Given that our ultimate yardstick for assessing drafts is 'would this survive a hypothetical AfD?', and seeing as this one sort of did, sort of didn't, I'm hesitant to just overrule the AfD consensus. Would someone else please take a look and let me know what they think? Ta muchly, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The only point of note about the subject is that she is the spouse of a politician who has a named position in the parliament, therefore inheriting her husband's notability. I would not have published the article based on just this one fact. Just a disclosure, I had nominated several similar articles for deletion discussions, and the end result were that they were redirected to their spouses' article. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mary Chee Bee Kiang and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mohammed Abdullah Alhabshee. – robertsky (talk) 09:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if that's what you're saying, @Robertsky, but just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that she gets any sort of automatic notability as the spouse of someone (be it of the LOTO, or possibly in a few days' time, of the PM). I'm saying the sources satisfy GNG, specifically #1-3 and 7 (also 8, if you ignore the fact that the publication is the same as in 3). -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

What I am saying is that she is only in the news because of her partner, not her. Whatever are covered in the sources, despite of what maybe satisfying GNG, can be easily be a couple of sentences in the personal life section of Keir Starmer, which is the case already. There is no need for a standalone article on her at this juncture. If she is a PM's wife, there may be a presumption of notability, but not all spouses have a public life or do public work that warrant a separate article. – robertsky (talk) 11:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Although in one sense the sources at first appear to have significant coverage they feel forced and all just because she is Keir Starmers wife rather than because she's notable in any other way. All but one sources titles are some form of "Keirs wife" and the one that isn't is just a passing mention. #1 even starts by saying she is low profile apart from having to do a few public appearances as his wife. It does feel that if they weren't desperate to write something about Keirs wife she would not be notable and appears to avoid publicity. The "personal life" section adds nothing that is not shared so could be on Keirs article, and the rest is mostly just personal info. Frankly as she appears to avoid publicity and according to #1 "has never done an interview - and according to Sir Keir, that's not about to change." this seems like a WP:BLP violation. It's not just outing her personal information it also says what her mother does and her sisters name. Just based on Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy it's a firm no for me. KylieTastic (talk) 12:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that there were only two sources added between the draftification and now, and both are "who is this woman that is married to the presumptive next PM" pieces. I would normally decline for such a little change, but in about 48 hours I do somewhat agree with the above that if the precedent for the wife of a PM to be notable and have an article, you might as well wait until it's official and then accept. Primefac (talk) 15:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, all. I'll release this back into the pool, then, because I don't want to decline it (not sure I could convincingly explain why, if asked), and don't want to accept it, either, against what seems to be the consensus here. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 13:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Despite the reason for existence of GNG coverage (because she is Keirs wife), IMO GNG coverage does exist and my thought would be to accept it. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have accepted it, she clearly easily meets WP:GNG. Theroadislong (talk) 13:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at MediaWiki talk:Searchmenu-new § Remove link to the article wizard

 You are invited to join the discussion at MediaWiki talk:Searchmenu-new § Remove link to the article wizard. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Empty Submissions

Some pending change reviewers accept empty (and thus automatically declined) submissions; and other reviewers reject them; and I simply cannot decide. Do we want to decide this one way or the other? Is there anything to be gained by clogging the list — however little — with pointless, empty, trivially declined entries? Nick Levine (talk) 16:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Honestly not sure what you're asking about here. Drafts don't have automatic pending changes enabled, so PCRs shouldn't have anything to do with the draft process. A blank draft should be declined, which is trivially easy to do and takes no less time than rejecting (which leaves no room for improvement). If you are seeing AfC reviewers rejecting blank drafts, please tell them to stop. Primefac (talk) 12:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm wondering if Nick is talking about Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects rather than drafts? KylieTastic (talk) 12:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am. Nick Levine (talk) 12:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah. See my reply below then. Primefac (talk) 12:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn’t realised this talk page covered multiple types of creation request. Apologies for the confusion. I’m specifically talking about Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects. Nick Levine (talk) 12:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Only vandalism should be rejected, in my opinion. There are a ton of reasons why a blank request may be submitted, and the user may not even realise it was blank when they submitted it (basically people can't figure out how to read instructions and end up doing things like putting their request inside of a {{void}} or similar). Primefac (talk) 12:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Primefac that looks like really clear guidance. Nick Levine (talk) 15:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

AFCH Helper Script and Categories

Tracked in github.com
Issue #256

User:Mathglot left a message on my talk page asking me not to edit categories when I am editing AFC drafts. This can be seen at the bottom of my talk page. The example that he gave of what he was asking me not to do is this edit. As an AFC reviewer can see, I was using the yellow Comment button to insert a comment into a draft, and it appears that the script did cleanup on the categories, inserting colons in front of them. However, that was mistaken cleanup, because the categories should be disabled while the draft is in draft, and will be enabled when the draft is accepted. I replied that I know little about categories, and I seldom edit them. If I accept a draft, I normally tag it with {{Improve categories}} to request that gnomes review the categories. I said that it appeared that the AFCH script was messing with the categories, and that I would start a discussion of the issue at the AFCH talk page (here). So, is the script editing the categories in an incorrect way? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Clarification: I think it's fine for anyone at Afc to edit categories of AFC drafts. The only thing I am asking, is for those drafts containing Draft-protected categories (i.e., embedded in template {{Draft categories}} ), please do not prefix the categories with a colon. As Robert says, this is "mistaken cleanup", and it makes things worse. I have nothing against any other kind of category edit before, during, or after Afc. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

For the record, there is nothing wrong with having colon-hidden categories instead of using {{draft categories}}. That being said, I was under the impression that AFCH ignored the latter when doing routine cleanup. Primefac (talk) 23:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it's handled somewhere near here or here, but I'm not a js-jockey. Mathglot (talk) 00:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

It is a bit odd and probably confuses some new editors, but not a huge issue. Note, it is already raised as an issue, so just waiting for a volunteer code monkey. Also on a related topic see this one. KylieTastic (talk) 09:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Bryan Mealer

Could some AfC reviewers please have a look at this draft and the rationale used to reject it. Thank you very much. FloridaArmy (talk) 11:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

If the article was on "Muck City" I would accept it too. But it says little about the author. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

More details on his life would be good to include. Doesn't he meet criteria 3 and 4 of the creative professionals notability criteria? His most famous work was adapted into a film as is noted in the entry. FloridaArmy (talk) 10:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Prose quality/rough translation

I was looking at reasons for declining, and I see nothing about prose quality when it relates to translation. Should we say something along the lines "avoid declining an article if it is a rough translation; instead, tag it with {{rough translation}}? @WhatamIdoing _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Template:AfC submission/comments says:

The submission appears to be written in language. This is the English language Wikipedia; we can only accept articles written in the English language. Please provide a high-quality English language translation of your submission. Have you visited the Wikipedia home page? You can probably find a version of Wikipedia in your language.

I didn't see any others that related to translation, and this is for no translation, rather than a poor translation, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewing instructions does not mention bad grammar, need for copyediting, or similar problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Bad grammar is not a reason to decline; we are primarily here to assess notability and neutrality. If folks are using that regularly as a decline reason, then yes, we should add a note about not declining for that reason (unless it's a single editor, in which case we just trout them). Primefac (talk) 23:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Anyone know why AFCH has been re-adding a duplicate comment?

Tracked in github.com
Issue #206

See Special:Diff/1233550011, the script has (in multiple instances on this draft's history) re-added a duplicate comment to the top of the page. Any help in why that is so I can prevent it if I see it again in the future, and what to do to prevent it now would be appreciated. Thanks, microbiologyMarcus ^{[petri dish·growths]} 17:52, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It's a known bug, see e.g. this and that discussion; current working hypothesis is that it's when an {{AFC comment}} is malformed. Primefac (talk) 23:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Jacob A. Eaton

Why isn't this long serving state legislator notable? I don't understand why the references are objectionable? FloridaArmy (talk) 16:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@FloridaArmy: I'm not saying this was the reason for declining, but is there any independent and reliable verification (eg. official legislature records or similar) of his service? The first two sources don't seem to state that, from what I can see at least, and the last two are primary. Other than that, perhaps you could ask the reviewer what they had in mind, as I'm only guessing here. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I found some and added them User:DoubleGrazing. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your work, with those improvements I've gone ahead and accepted the draft. Curbon7 (talk) 21:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)