Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 48

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USL Super League

New second-division league in the US will be fully professional (identical conditions to USL Championship, which is already included as fully pro). 1, 2, etc. Seany91 (talk) 11:24, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

This is intended to be a fully professional league. In other words, everyone gets paid. Ok, but how much? The two articles you linked are definitely strong indications that the league might be fully-pro, but I think we need more specific figures. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:30, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

USL has clearly indicated that the Super League will have similar compensation standards and structures as USL Championship and USL League One, which are both included as FPL. So unless you also question the inclusion of those two leagues, I don't see any reason why USL Super League wouldn't be included. Seany91 (talk) 12:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that this should be added. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, if it's same 'professional' level as USL Championship. GiantSnowman 08:21, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

It's been one week without any more discussion, so I will go ahead and add. Seany91 (talk) 07:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Santosh Trophy

Santosh Trophy is a national football match conducted in India, which competing with several states in India. "sources"1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Santosh Trophy will have similar compensation standards and structures as Indian Super League (both are same type, but different leagues). And many of the players are common and players from Santosh Trophy get selected to ISL (Indian Super League). All the players are playing for wages & getting payed around approx. 100,000 rupees yearly. As a fully professional league, they are supported by All India Football Federation and I recommend to add this Santosh Trophy league. So unless you also question the inclusion of those two leagues, I don't see any reason why Santosh Trophy wouldn't be included. 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 16:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

@0"cleopatra"0: Only leagues are included here, not knock-out tournaments. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:15, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

It's a league too. So whats about players in Santosh Trophy? The are also paid but can't write about Santosh Trophy players in wikipedia??? This league is similar to Indian Super League. Please consider & find a research about this Santosh Trophy. 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 02:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@0"cleopatra"0: By league I mean a competition part of the Indian football league system. It seemed to have been the top-level national league between 1941 and 1996 though. A player playing in a Santosh Trophy game (today) is notable per WP:NFOOTY if both teams are either in the I-League or Super League. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:59, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Santosh Trophy is not a tournament and it is a league match conducted by All India Football Federation (AIFF) under Indian football league system. Compared to Indian Super League, Santosh Trophy has the same value & recognition rather than I-League. Players from Santosh Trophy is getting selected to other 2 Indian national leagues. The teams in Santosh Trophy may vary from other ISL or I-League with team names. Because this is a match with more than 30 teams & Santosh Trophy was started in 1941 as official fully professional national football league in India. 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@0"cleopatra"0: I would wait for other people's opinions before adding it to the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok.take your time and discuss it with other users or administrators. We need other people opinions and public view response about this league, while decision need to be after a high research & confirm me the response in a weak! ASAP Thanks. Regards, 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 17:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

The current WP page clearly states that Santosh Trophy is a "knockout competition"; if it's a cup competition, it's not for here. Seany91 (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that it should not be included. GiantSnowman 18:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not a league, so not for here. Also, the OP has been blocked as sock. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Spain

The Spanish league re-organised in summer 2021, and now there is the old La Liga and Segunda División as well as new Primera División RFEF, Segunda División RFEF and Tercera División RFEF. Has anything changed with the professionalism? GiantSnowman 19:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

No real change. Primera and Segunda remain fully professional. Primera División RFEF and Segunda División RFEF are semi-professional, and are basically the heir to the old Segunda B. [1] [2] Angelo (talk) 12:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. That Mundo Deportivo article makes that very clear. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Angelo.romano: @Spiderone: @GiantSnowman: well, not really. According to the RFEF, Primera RFEF is a professional category (Dicha nueva categoría, denominada Primera RFEF, tiene la consideración, a los efectos federativos y de su regulación normativa, como de competición oficial profesionalizada). Earlier in the very same paragraph, they cite that both Segunda RFEF and Tercera RFEF are not pro (Los órganos competentes de la RFEF aprobaron la configuración de una nueva estructura competitiva donde, además, de la Segunda División B (Segunda RFEF) y de la Tercera División (Tercera RFEF), ambas competiciones de ámbito estatal y carácter no profesional,[...]), which is in accordance to the old Segunda B and Tercera, but since Primera RFEF is a completely new division, I can't say that it's not pro, from what I could gather, neither both articles provided by Angelo say so. Plus, if you take a look at the Primera and Segunda División regulations in the RFEF, the description is basically the same (El Campeonato Nacional de Liga de Primera División y el Campeonato Nacional de Liga de Segunda División son competiciones oficiales de ámbito estatal y carácter profesional [...]). BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 04:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Plus, players demanded a professional contract and a minimum wage basis before the season started, and the regulations establish that a yearly salary between €20,000 and €30,000 should be paid to all over-23 players in the league. After a short research, I found out that the cost of living in Madrid, the capital, is around €1,600 per month, which would make the yearly costs in around €19,000, less than the very minimum wage established by the RFEF. The national minimum wage is also established in €1,125.8 per month or €13,510 per year, so therefore is another condition that goes in the FPL criteria (adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income). BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 04:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

So it looks like at least 18 players out of the 23 or 24 must be on professional contracts as per the Footters source. I suppose the question is whether we as a community ought to consider that sufficient to list at FPL or whether it would be better to have that enforced on the entire 23 or 24 and not just those designated as senior players. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 05:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Are the 6 players left 'youth' or simply not professional? GiantSnowman 07:58, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, I want to stress out the wording from the RFEF document. They specifically use the word "profesionalizado" instead of "profesional" (which is instead used here to refer to Primera and Segunda https://www.rfef.es/sites/default/files/images19/001_primera_y_segunda_division.pdf), which has a subtly different meaning in Spanish, basically hinting at the fact it is not mandatory to be a fully professional club in order to play in the Primera RFEF. Angelo (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: They can have youth contracts since they are under the age of 23, but most of them have a professional contract from what I could see. @Angelo.romano: The wording is different, so is the treatment o Primera RFEF to a non-professional division (such as Segunda RFEF and Tercera RFEF), it's very clear in the regulations. It goes into what @Spiderone: said: if the community consider sufficient enough to say the division is a FPL or not. Votes? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 15:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: @Angelo.romano: @Spiderone: Any thoughts over this? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 13:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

If there is no requirement to be professional then it is not a fully-professional league. GiantSnowman 15:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: There is no such statement in the RFEF regulation which says that is "not mandatory" to be a fully professional club, as Angelo stated. I quoted before exactly what the RFEF regulation stated, and it says that the division is professional. If you consider the minimum wage established and the regulations, I see no further evidence that the division may not be considered fully pro. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Aside from that, I could not find the "subtly different meaning" mentioned before. "Profesionalizada" (or "profesionalizado") means the same as "profesional". Both means "professional". BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

That is not true. "Profesionalizado" means "professionalized", as in "on a path toward professionalism", but not inherently professional. I have been living in Barcelona for over five years and I am pretty fluent in Spanish so I am aware of the distinction. The document from RFEF says the league is "professionalized", not "professional", and other links provide to documentation where it explicitly says up to five squad players (regardless of their age) are not required to be under professional contract. Here is one article (in Spanish) digging in detail into the difference between "profesional" and "profesionalizado" [3]. Another one making clear the distinction between the two terms [4] or here [5] where it is defined as "competitions that are not yet professional but have the requisites". Angelo (talk) 07:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

If the wording is different as Angelo says, then it is not professional, is it? GiantSnowman 09:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Sorry about the delay. Even though the wording is different, the standards of the league aren't enough to consider it pro? I'm not doubting @Angelo's response, not even close to that, but if you analyze the facts (minimum wage established, all adult - 23 or older - players under a contract which is enough for them to live by, etc), this is not enough to consider the league professional? Cheers, BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Iraqi league update

Adnan Darjal, a candidate for Iraq Football Association presidency, announced his plan to make the Iraqi Premier League fully-professional by the 2022–23 season (source). This obviously implies that the league isn't fully-pro yet. Despite having been the one to advocate for its inclusion in the list in this discussion, I would remove it for now. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:18, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. GiantSnowman 15:00, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree that we should remove it until its professional status is confirmed. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Only issue is that this now means that we have several upon several articles like Ahmed Mohsen and Khudhor Ali that don't meet WP:NFOOTBALL. Not sure what the best course of action is for these. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I've already nominated a few for deletion. Unfortunately, Mohsen and Ali's articles were undetectable under PetScan, as they are incorrectly categorized under Category:Iraq international footballers. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

5 Reasons Why We Don’t See More Iraqi Footballers In Europe it states that the Players in the Iraqi league receive on average $120,000 a year. and IQD 17,009,645 average salary Iraqi players are full time football players do think it is fully professional.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Pharaoh of the Wizards: It doesn't necessarily mean that virtually all players in the league earn a livable wage. We just know the average figure. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The average is an indicator of the league and Iraqi players are full time players do have a livable wage and in Iraq Football is the most popular sport and did compare this wage with the wages in 64 leagues here.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: and @Spiderone: 120K average salary in a league is fully professional.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:02, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

If your questionable source says 120k, why has the administrator said it is not fully pro? GiantSnowman 09:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Hassanin Mubarak, an author of Iraqi football books, has also noted that the plan to make the league professional by 2022 is ambitious (source). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 09:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Iraq has a wealth of recourses, but they suffered and lost a lot in the last two decades. It will be a while to rebuild a lot of the countries infrastructure let alone want to have a fully professional top football league in a few years. Govvy (talk) 11:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies it is fine then that the consensus is that the league is not fully professional. The average football salary in oil rich Iraq is higher than many other countries.Hassanane Balal who stated it is 120k is a London-based journalist and editor who writes on Iraqi Football for over 9 years he is quoted in the media including the Jerusalem Post and is the owner of the website IraqFootball.me.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 15:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Guys, I thought a right indication could be made by looking at the AFC Champions League. Iraqi clubs earned licenses to participate. Isn't that enough to be considered 'professional'? Steel Dogg (talk) 16:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Apparently not, according to the now-president of the Iraqi FA. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:43, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

So how can we determine if a league is 'fully professional'? What are the criteria? Steel Dogg (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Per here, an average salary per year stands in approximately 17,000,000 IQD, while the minimum wage stands in 250,000 IQD per month, exactly 3,000,000 per year. From that, we can establish that football players in the country can live comfortably by playing football, and replying to @Steel Dogg:, per the own WP:FPL: A fully professional league is one in which virtually all adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income. This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage. The professionalism of the league should also extend to sufficient contact hours, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow full-time pursuit of the sport.

From what I could see, there's no indication to prove that the league may not be considered fully-pro per the nation's standards. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Other than the Iraqi FA president stating that the league isn't pro? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Also, an average salary isn't the best indicator, as it could be affected by outliers. We don't know what a player in a newly-promoted team earns. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:14, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: This conflicts to what is stated in WP:FPL. According to the text on WP:FPL, this league meet the criteria to being considered fully pro. However, this goes under a dillema: the president says the league is not fully pro, so if we consider what he says, then it will open breaches to "overrule" some extensive researches just because the president and/or the federation says so. In the other hand, if we go through and consider this league fully pro, is the correct manner of approaching when the president is saying a different thing? I honestly don't know what to think about this. I would say if we look straight to facts only, this league is in the criteria, but as you said, the president's line may confuse the evaluation of the league as a whole. I would wait until new facts arise, but for now I would remove the league from the main project page. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I would consider it professional for the reasons mentioned above. Also, the teams are playing in the AFC Champions League again since 2019. Clubs are earning licenses, that means they fulfil the criteria. Steel Dogg (talk) 21:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

What are your thoughts regarding the president of the Iraqi FA's statement, alongside the fact that we don't have a "minimum" figure, rather an average one? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Clubs earning AFC CL licenses is just that - some clubs in the league. It doesn't mean the whole league is fully-pro. Look at Uzbekistan, they are playing in CL for ages, yet their league is not considered fully-pro.--BlameRuiner (talk) 13:31, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

NPSL Teams

I am still having issues getting my article for Georgia Storm FC approved. According to... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Notability the team should should meet requirements as they have participated in the US Open Cup. 90% of NPSL teams have articles so the "fully professional" requirement appears to not be valid. I know the argument of if ___ has a page, ___ should as well is not a valid point, but I am asking for help determining what is getting the other teams approved but this article is not, especially when the team is meeting one of the requirements. I pointed this out to my reviewer but they haven't responded. Here is my draft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Georgia_Storm_FC Kevinw33 (talk) 21:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kevinw33: - the 'fully professional' requirement refers to player notability, not clubs. There are hundreds and hundreds of articles about notable amateur clubs. GiantSnowman 21:07, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

GiantSnowman That's what I keep hearing, but my article has been rejected for not passing the phantom "fully professional" requirement by three different reviewers. Kevinw33 (talk) 21:13, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

pinging reviewer @Eternal Shadow: to read this discussion here. 10:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Eternal Shadow: Giant, The article was approved and now it has been flagged for possible deletion due to lack of notability. Lol, I feel like I'm being picked on now. Kevinw33 (talk) 12:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

I was the one who moved your draft to mainspace. Another editor added a notability tag, but you can improve or remove on your own. No one has initiated a PROD or AfD proceedings. Seany91 (talk) 06:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

A somewhat related point is that WP:RA's football section contains many requested NPSL teams, and many of them are redirects. Is it beneficial to have these redirects, or should they be RFD'ed? Geschichte (talk) 17:39, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Torneo Federal A

Should the Torneo Federal A be listed here? It's one of the two third-tier Argentine professional leagues, the other being Primera B Metropolitana, which is listed here at FPL. Has there ever been any consensus to include or to exclude this league? I couldn't find anything when searching 'Torneo' in the archive search box. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Apparently, both are, since in the divisions below it players also work part-time. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

How can we judge a league by the degree of work in the tier below it? Geschichte (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Geschichte: I can only assume that you didn't read the article I provided. There, it's pretty clear that players in Torneo Federal A and Primera B Metropolitana only play football for a living, while the divisions below it have multiple part-time players. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 20:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)