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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 50

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by Ampimd in topic Ghana Premier League
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Ghana Premier League

Latest comment: 2 years ago60 comments9 people in discussion

I am confused how the source provided suggests that the league is fully pro. [1] , can someone explain that to me, I was checking because this 2020-2021 Ashanti Gold S.C season popped up in the new page feed. Govvy (talk) 12:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

This article strongly suggests that the league isn't fully-pro ("if a player is receiving GHC 500 or 1000 and that person has rent to pay and has a girlfriend or wife with kids its a difficult situation to combine"). Nehme1499 13:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
The quite suggestive that the Ghanian Premier League shouldn't be in the full pro list. Govvy (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
I searched through the archives to see if a discussion ever took place prior to inclusion but couldn't find one. Interestingly, if you check Archive 12, you can clearly see that User:ArsenalFan700 raised it as a dubious inclusion but it didn't get discussed further. I would support removing the league from the list unless a better source comes forward. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 18:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
At the time, there wasn't even a mention of the league in the source at all. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:48, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Happy for its removal. GiantSnowman 20:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Ye, I think it should be removed also. Govvy (talk) 20:32, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Govvy:, @GiantSnowman:, @Nehme1499:, @ArsenalFan700: are you happy if I boldly remove this league from the list for now? Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 17:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Sure. Nehme1499 17:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. GiantSnowman 19:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
I've removed it for now. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 21:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
@ArsenalFan700 @GiantSnowman @Govvy @Nehme1499, Based on the sources, the Ghana Premier League has been a professional league since 16 September 1993. [2][3][4] The 1993-1994 season on wards has been was a professional league. [5], Using the article which talks about GHC 500 or 1000, can not be a reference to take off the article. That amount is the minimum wage in Ghana. The player who made that statement is someone who has moved out of Ghana and is playing outside Ghana so would definitely say the minimum wage should be raised. That doesn't mean that the league is not a professional league. Ampimd (talk) 10:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@ArsenalFan700 @GiantSnowman @Govvy @Nehme1499 @Spiderone, Based on sources provided by Ampimd,The Ghana Premier League is actually a Professional league and only one reference cannot guarantee that the League should be delisted. Players who play in Ghana do not do any other additional work for income and that the amount stated is a minimum wage in Ghana Robertjamal12 (talk) 11:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I looked through the sources, the first talks about going professional, and others just mirror that first one. The league themselves saying they are professional is a primary source, however it doesn't really tell us how professional they are. From the evidence provided I am inclined to believe the league operates semi-professional. Govvy (talk) 11:17, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree that the sources presented here are insufficient to confirm the fully-professional nature of the league. GiantSnowman 11:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Can you explain what you mean by the league is not fully professional? If the sources are saying the league is professional? Ampimd (talk) 11:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
[6] Page 134 of this book talks about the league being a professional league since 1993. If there are about three sources, Two from the Ghana Football Association, one from Modern Ghana, one from a book. What other sources would be needed to show that the league is a professional league. Obviously the Ghana Football Association are the authority to make the league a professional league by making the laws. I actually dont know what other sources you would want to prove that its a professional league. The league was initially a semi-professional league but in 1993 it was made a professional league just as the sources state. Ampimd (talk) 11:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
The source from Modern Ghana is not a mirror of the other kindly check the dates. Ampimd (talk) 11:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
The one from the Ghana Football Association, talks about the particular day the first match was played. The one from Modern Ghana talks about when the law was passed and the people on the Professional Premier League Board. I would also like to find out why you are basing all your statements on just one source talking about GH500 or GH 1000. Ampimd (talk) 11:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
In the paragraph written in the first cite you gave. "It also said that with effect from the 1993/94 season all first division clubs shall enter into a contractual agreement with their players, to bring them to a non- amateur status. Furthermore it urged first division clubs to register not less than 16 non amateur players for the 1993/94 season." Hmm, "non- amateur status"! And does that also imply they can still have a number of players without actually needing to pay them??
Not mirrored? It's the same image and the same word for word of the first paragraphs! Govvy (talk) 11:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Exactly it states that non-amateur status that means professional. The players were initially amateur players until this law was passed and there for they became professionals or non-amateur players. It did not say amateur players. It said non-amateur=professional. Ampimd (talk) 11:42, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
No, it's all suggested, that does not mean it has been done know. Govvy (talk) 11:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@ArsenalFan700 @GiantSnowman @Govvy @Nehme1499 @Spiderone, How exactly? I personally do not get the point of the league not being a professional league when references have been provided to show it is. Who would be in the best position to state something? If the Bundesliga official page says that they are no more a professional league would you wait for another source to state it before you take it off?
Because the best people to say the league is a professional league and has moved from the amateur level to professional level is the people who organise the league. In this case the Ghana Football Association. They have stated that since 1993 the league is no more an amateur league. But you are not convinced, which I don't understand. It may be a primary source, yeah but it is a reliable source. We reference a lot of the premier league statements with references from the premier league, especially the history, the stats, awards. I think if the organizer is stating that the first professional league was the 1993-1994 due to a law they passed in September 1993 why are you then saying it is not true and that the league is not professional and that they are just suggesting it is. I can hardly get your point in this case. The complete history of the Ghana Football League, 1958-2012, states also that the league has been a professional league since then. The league or board or the association is not waiting for another time to state that the league is a professional league because that was done in 1993 and has been reiterated over the years including those articles and references I gave. Everything about the league is being organized as a professional league not an amateur league or a soon to be professional league or semi professional league. If it is concluded that the league is not an professional league that would be harmful considering the number of content that has been added due to it being a professional league because there wouldnt be anytime in this life where the league, board, association or anyone would put out a statement to say that the league is not professional league when it has been done already. That's what I have to say. I don't know which other means to prove it. Ampimd (talk) 12:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Govvy, Kindly check this article [7] -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 11:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Robertjamal12: They article may say Premier League and Professional, however have a look at our list and see how many Premier Leagues there are that are semi-professional. I am not saying you're wrong, I don't see enough defined statements in those citations to suggest that the league is fully professional. I would need to see clear defined documentation for that to happy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Govvy (talk) 11:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Govvy:, The statement clearly said it is professional and please can tell what kind of reference or defined statement you need. If there is any source or other suggestions that state that it is not professional, I'm happy to know because the League became professional in 1993 and operating as a professional league. -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone: The minimum wage in Ghana is ¢12.53 per day, if this is multiplied by the number of working days per month mostly between 20-22, if 20, then means ¢250.6, if 21=¢263.13, if 22=¢275.66. Meanwhile, the initial article you stated said they earn between ¢500-¢1000. That amount is more than the minimum wage per month across the country and also fixtures are played every week sometimes including mid week till the end of the season. Kindly check this [8].[9] -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I just came across this talk thread and I must say our measure for what a fully professional league is has not even been backed by any sources from Fifa or all the various countries running those leagues. If Wikipedia wants to be truly inclusive we must listen to people with lived experience in places that they speak about. Life in Ghana is completely different from Europe, America and Asia more so Ghana is a developing country so we cannot first of all be setting certain standards which is completely unfair to countries from some part of Africa. Ghana runs a fully professional league and we can verify that by visiting the pages of GFA the body mandated by Fifa to run our league.[10]. Also here is a link to the champion of Ghana's league participating in the CAF Champions League just two weeks ago[11] I wonder if by that standards too then CAF Champions League is not a professional league too.[12]. In my humble opinion the definition of what a Fully Professional League is must be looked at again.Owula kpakpo (talk) 13:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Well there you have it, @Spiderone per what @Robertjamal12 just provided. I made an initial statement that, Richmond Boakye Yiadom's statement cannot be used as the basis to take off the article. The player has played across Europe where the minimum wage is higher and players salaries are higher. Based on that he sees the wages in Ghana as being low. But considering the minimum wages in Ghana, the amount the players receive is higher than the minimum wage in Ghana under the labour act. Meanwhile this review of the labour wages review was done in 2021, whilst Boakye Yiadom's statement was made in 2020 when the wage was ¢11.82 per day. Considering that then the players were receiving over 50% of the minimum wage then. The statement he made was relative to wages in Europe. Its very subjective. Ampimd (talk) 14:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I understand the fact that the initial cite was problematic. But basing the removal on Boakye Yiadom's is also problematic in my opinion. That was his views and they are subjective. The wages or standard of living in Ghana is different from living outside Ghana. There is a constant talk of increasing the general wages across all fields in the country everyday on radio, television, seminars, parliament and the likes. Which is valid every one wants a better life and wants to have more. The league is professional. I hope the it would relisted. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 14:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is it a bit weird that right after the Ghana PL was removed from the FPL, two other Ghana-based editors suddenly participated in this discussion? Is seems as if Ampimd asked a couple of friends to pretty much reiterate what he has already said (without really adding other points of view). Nehme1499 15:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499:, but why should this be weird? Ghana based editors giving reliable sources about a Ghana-related article?. Every one of us has an interest in one thing or another, so if Ghanaian editors are interested in Ghana related articles, what's weird about that? Moreover, I created the article that led to this discussion and it's better we all come to one understanding rather than pointing fingers which you can't prove.Why should you even just say without any evidence that he reached out to us. Please lets all follow the thread and have a conclusion. Thank you--- Robertjamal12 (talk) 15:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499:, This article This article does not suggest that the league isn't fully-pro as you say. Kindly check the minimum wage in Ghana [13] and [14] -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Do not get it wrong. I have been editing Wikipedia articles for a while. I have encountered all of you on other discussions, this is not the first time. Kindly do not redirect this issue and belittle it in such a way. In this case it is an about Ghana Premier League which I have edited extensively on and so affects me directly. The other editors, @Robertjamal12 is the creator of the 2020-2021 Ashanti Gold S.C season, I believe is the reason he is taking part in this discussion.
I would respectfully ask that you do not connect their involvement in the discussion to your interpretation. @Govvy @GiantSnowman @Spiderone or even you @Nehme1499, is the this the first time you have come across any article created by me or edited by me or my involvement in a discussion? I have been busily trying to add up contents related to African football, Ghanaian football, African Women's football and realizing that the articles I have created a dozen of them have a connection with the Ghana Premier League. I have given my views and citation of what makes it a professional league.
The two others I believe have given their points based on statements they have gotten or found. or what they believe it is. I am not sure it is just based on what I added. We are all here for neutrality, kindly do not conclude in such a manner. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 15:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Just to be clear: my "suspicion" comes from the fact that two new editors (who aren't really involved in football-related articles on Wikipedia), participated in this discussion after the league has been removed, rather than while the discussion was ongoing. It just felt a bit like WP:FORUMSHOPing to me. Regardless, my lack to WP:AGF is unwarranted, so I apologize. I'm neutral regarding the professional status of the Ghana PL given the sources at hand. Nehme1499 17:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
So the My Joy Online article says Some top flight players earn as little as GHS 400 monthly. but my understanding from the calculations above is that this is still above minimum wage, am I right? There's probably enough of a case for the league to go back on then. As someone who patrols new articles quite regularly, I am quite familiar with User:Ampimd and their extensive work on Ghanaian football biographies. I don't see anything suspicious about their involvement or Robertjamal's in this discussion. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 17:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone Exactly, based on that source along with the calculations it means the that it is still above the minimum wage. Ampimd (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone Over here you made it clear that then that the information provided is enough of a case for the league to go back on then
So what changed? Are we disregarding every information given? I figured there had been progress but then all of a sudden back to zero. Ampimd (talk) 19:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Nehme1499 apology accepted. I am aware you are ensuring the right thing is done, so am I. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 17:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
@Govvy, @GiantSnowman, @Nehme1499, @Spiderone, I believe a consensus has been reached now and so the league would have to be relisted as a professional league to make it easy to create articles related to it. Ampimd (talk) 22:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
No, there is no such consensus. GiantSnowman 11:48, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Kindly keep page, we can't say the league is unprofessional because of only a comment made by a player concerning remuneration. The Ghanaian League has been function for a long time as a professional body and it has birthed great player who we need not to talk about their salary when they started before they moved to higher heights like Ibrahim Sunday,Osei Kofi, Abedi Pele,Tony Yeboah,Stephen Appiah,Charles Taylor, Bernard Dong Bortey,Nana Arhin Duah, Joe Hendricks,Stephen Oduro and more,they made a huge impression on our league before moving out. Some of them won huge or major titles like CAF Champions League and CAF Confederation Cup so if the league was not professional how would these tournament not be recognized by FIFA as a body.Jwale2 (talk) 14:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Where are the reliable sources confirming categorically that the league is fully professional? GiantSnowman 15:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Are you disregarding all the factors and all the statements I proved above? The definition of What is a "fully professional" league? does not say that it must be written somewhere categorically. Moreover I have given you facts to prove that it was a professional league.
The statement from the Ghana Football Association may be a primary source. If that is the case why do you use statements from the Premier League to reference statements on the Premier League page. Is it that their statement is more reliable? and when the Ghana Premier League says theirs it is not? Ampimd (talk) 15:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
This decision was made in September 1993. Digital media was not even available here but you have been given facts and statements to prove that it was Ampimd (talk) 15:12, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
I have proved even that the guys statement is subjective. You can not use one person's statement to take it off. Not even from the Ghana Football Association president or CAF president, interesting, from a footballer. Ampimd (talk) 15:14, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone At the moment I am waiting on a consensus to make it easy to create articles in relation to the Ghana Premier League if not then all my efforts in the past and draft articles would all be a waste. Anyway, [15] this article also talks about Ashanti Gold S.C. being the first team to win the league when it went professional. I made it clear that if this is insisted on and taken off entirely, then never in this life would anything related to the Ghana Premier League be created on Wikipedia because there would never be a day when the Ghana Football Association would state that the league is now professional. That action has already taken place.
In terms of wages, that has been proven and cleared based on the wages and minimum wages in Ghana. There is no way the wages in Ghana would be the same as the wages in England, Serbia, China, Italy which are countries that Richmond Boakye has played in. His statement can not be the basis to remove the League from the FPL list, his statement is subjective. Notwithstanding, per what is above the wages are above the minimum wages in the country, which is what the FPL defines a Professional Football League. It states as 'This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage.' In this case it is above it. With this I do not which other way to prove that the league is actually a professional league.
The administrators of the league are the ones who declare, from the above and other discussions, I noticed that per the statements of the administrators of the respective league, the league is either removed from the list or maintained. In this case the administrators also state that the league has been a professional league since September 1993, with the first match being played in December 1993.
[16] This article also talks about the league going professional in 1993. I wish a consensus can be reached on this if not then it would be hard to create articles regarding Ghana Premier League, which in turn would mean my subject of interest would be unavailable. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 13:06, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone, In most of the Leagues listed on the FPL list, their timeframes are not even added, in this particular case the timeframe has been confirmed and rectified in terms of when is became a professional league. I am finding it hard on exactly why it is not being accepted and what other things to add up to show that it is a professional league. Ampimd (talk) 13:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Ampimd I have no objection to it being reinstated with a source clearly stating the minimum salary and preferably another to confirm that the players are all full-time. This FIFA report makes for some interesting reading - there are 1608 professional players in Ghana and there is a player association. Interestingly, this report has no record of a minimum salary. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 18:27, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Quite interesting how that report actually states that the Ghanaian league is a professional league as well, with Ghana having the most number of professional clubs in Africa. Which is actually the truth and confirms that Ghana Premier League is a professional league Ampimd (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Because the report states the leagues which are not professional and are amateur. Ampimd (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@SpideroneI just found this particular article kindly check it out if this satisfies it. [17] The article confirms my point, the amount is the minimum but obviously can get better and so its subjective. This article states that's a monthly salary of $100. Ampimd (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone,[18],[19], all these two articles and books, talk about the monthly salaries being at least $100. This is the same amount as GH¢400, depending on the exchange rate. Based on that that is the minimum salary and as I made it clear the minimum salary is above the wages. Ampimd (talk) 18:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Comment - @Spiderone, I want to find out that if FIFA lists the Ghana Premier League as a professional league, and lists the Niger Premier League as a semi-professional league, why are we trying as much as possible to list the Ghana Premier League as a semi-professional league? This does not look right. If the regulators have classified all the leagues per the report you shared then why are we saying then that it isn't? Ampimd (talk) 19:34, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Nehme1499 can you kindly let me know your opinion and please go to the sources I have provided above along with the points I have made. Ampimd (talk) 20:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
@Spiderone this article Football in Asia: History, Culture and Business edited by Younghan Cho page 116 refers to basic salary received by Ghanaian Footballers. Kindly check. Ampimd (talk) 14:42, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
@Ampimd: That's the average, though. It doesn't indicate that everyone earns a liveable wage. Nehme1499 14:49, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Can you give me a reference of any of the other leagues that points out that the amount given is a liveable wage? I went through the FPL list, a lot of them do not provide these sources or reference to show whether its a liveable wage.
In anyway, This is from the definition ''This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage.''
Above I provided evidence to show that the amount is a liveable wage and that the statement was from someone who had played outside the country and would definitely say wish the wages were as in the Western World. After I provided that evidence that the wage is beyond the liveable wage by giving the average or median national wage, you guys still insisted it was not enough. I provided evidence of the average or median national wage along with others and placed it against the wages of the footballers. Kindly check above.
Cultural Sport Psychology By Robert Schinke, Stephanie J. Hanrahan This also talks about the basic salary. Ampimd (talk) 14:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
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