Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Archive 2014

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Current direction of the HV project

Greetings unto all members of the Heraldry & Vexillology project!

I hope we can have some discussion of the current direction of the project, how we prioritize our tasks, and how we can improve our efficiency and revive our collaborative efforts. I have seen what we can do as a project when we all pitch in to getting something done, like when we wrote our style guide for blazoning a while back. Activity has died down somewhat, and it seems like most of us have just been keeping busy with some of the more menial tasks of quietly maintaining H/V articles. I'd like to propose a few items for discussion, but in order to facilitate that discussion, I'll do so under subheadings below, so feel free to chime in under the appropriate subheading. Thank you for taking the time to discuss here – you are the project, so it is important that you help define the project – and thank you again for all you do to continue keeping the project alive and improve our coverage of H/V topics! Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

What have our members been up to lately?

I'd just like to know what others are doing or have been doing lately to contribute to the H/V project, and what, if anything, they would like some help with. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Doing: Various tasks on disparate H/V articles, but primarily assessing unassessed articles, media files and stubs; also contributing content and sources to a few Swedish heraldry articles (like coat of arms of Öland); also moving articles called "Armorial of..." which are actually lists of coats of arms, rather than articles about notable published armorials. Need help: I would appreciate any contribution to discussion at these RMs, starting with Talk:Armorial of Plantagenet#Requested move. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Doing: I am currently trying to overhaul or create some comprehensive British armorials (or list of coats of arms): Plantagenets, Tudor, Stuarts, Hanover and Windsor. I am almost finished with a new Plantagenet list of arms: here in my sandbox. Other than that I have many graphic projects going (I usually have ten going on at the same time!) such as: vector versions of national coats of arms (some countries remain still: Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Swaziland and Turks and Caicos), English royal standards and some Chinese imperial dragon banners. Sodacan (talk) 03:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Prioritizing tasks

Let's set some priorities as a project. If you have tasks you'd like to see us take on as a group effort, please list them here. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Selecting articles for promotion: I'd like to see us employ a process to facilitate article promotion as a group effort. My vision for this is basically a noticeboard for requesting focused work on specific articles, so that users can post a request and get a response from a task force of H/V project members to focus their efforts on improving the quality of a current B-class article to GA or FA status, or to improve a GA or A-class article to FA quality. It takes a lot of work to get a B-class article up to GA quality, and FA nomination can be a very difficult process. It helps to have several editors sharing resources and working toward that common goal. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to propose the GA Flag of Scotland for improvement in preparation for FAC. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 02:01, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Deletion notices on WT:HV

RfC: Deletion notices on WT:HV I'd like to get a sense of what others think of this. Some of our very hard-working WikiGnomes have been kindly enough to give us notice of WP:FFD discussions here on this talk page. This can be very useful, as the files up for deletion are within the scope of this project and are often used in articles we are working to maintain and improve. The downside is that these FFD notices can also tend to clutter the talk page and detract from other discussion threads. I see a few options for how to handle this, but maybe there are other options I hadn't considered: Maintain the status quo, listing these as individual discussion threads on this page. Group FFD notices under a single thread (titled "FFD notices" or something like that). This would reduce page clutter initially, but would also prevent auto-archiving of these threads, so it would eventually increase clutter (or is there a way to tell MiszaBot to archive sub-threads?). Create a sub-page for FFD notices. This would move the notices off of this page altogether. The upside is it removes the talk page clutter, and those who wish to follow FFD discussions can watchlist the subpage. The downside is it puts the notices where almost no one will ever see them, and they may get even less notice than they do currently (if that's even possible - I don't often see any other H/V members discussing these). But a centralized page for discussion could improve our efficiency. Maybe we could link it on the main project menu, along with Main page, Assessment, Templates, Categories, Resources and Participants, to improve visibility. If there's another option you'd like to add, please feel free to add it! Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 18:53, 20 July 2013 (UTC) How about making an FfD subpage, transclude it to the top of this main talk page, but set the archiving to 10 days, so they get recycled a lot faster. Most XfD discussions are only one week anyway. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 22:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC) That is an idea I hadn't thought of, but I like it! It allows the XfD notice threads to be archived independently of the other discussion threads and addresses the visibility issue. It might make it a little confusing for newcomers to the page wishing to comment under those threads, but they're just notices anyway, the discussion actually happens elsewhere. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 05:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC) You can use <includeonly>{{edit}} [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Heraldry_and_vexillology/FFD&action=edit&section=new Add new FfD report]</includeonly> to include edit and add new section links for the subpage on the main talk page. If a contributor already has section editing enabled, it will still work just as it did before. Just direct MiszaBot to archive to the same place, and the only learning curve will be getting people to click on the separate links for the transcluded page instead of the main talk page. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 06:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC) ...which could be handled with a note at the top of the page explaining that deletion notices are transcluded from a subpage. Maybe something like this: assuming we use /FFD as the name of the subpage for XfD notices. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 04:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC) Why not call it /XfD ? (that would allow adding non-files and non-FFDs (as many of the notices are not about files at FfD, but at PUF, and CSD) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC) Thinking ahead. I like it! We're mostly seeing FfD notices right now, but you're right, there is a potential for AfD, TfD and other such notices. No matter how much discussion we reckon any of these to warrant, the discussion for each of them occurs elsewhere (e.g. at a nominated article's AfD page), not here on this talk page. I would support naming the subpage /XfD. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 00:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC) I'm going ahead and implementing this. If you find any snags, feel free to adjust as necessary. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 03:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Maintaining list of participants

We have a list of WikiProject participants, but in trying to get the word out about my questions here, I found that several entries were out of date or included nonexistent usernames. I know some users retire and may forget to remove themselves from our rolls before doing so, and some users have changed their usernames without updating our rolls. My question is, how much leeway should we afford ourselves in maintaining this list? I've taken the liberty of updating some changed usernames, and I may convert the formatting of some entries for uniformity. The idea is to maintain a list that is up-to-date and easy to navigate, so that project members can easily find each other to ask questions or seek commentary. I would think removing users who have formally retired from Wikipedia would be considered uncontroversial. What about users who simply have not made any edits (I mean ANY edits on en.WP) in several years? I found one member who made only two edits ever (including signing up here), about five years ago, and never made an edit since. Should we consider that user de facto retired? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 19:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think those users should be deleted from the list, but maybe move them to a section for "likely retired" or something like that? Arms Jones (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

National Emblem of Guatemala

Is National Emblem of Guatemala the correct title for this article? Kaldari (talk) 02:23, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe this was moved in February (See history at Coat of arms of Guatemala), and the editor has a point: there is no shield, so it is not a traditional coat of arms. As such, I am decidedly unsure, and would defer to someone more well-versed in heraldic terminology. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 02:37, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

There may be an argument to be made for dropping the term National from the title, but yes, this is in line with Emblem of Italy, Emblem of Angola, Emblem of Nepal, Emblem of Thailand, etc. The reason for all these Emblem of... articles is, as VanIsaac identified above, the lack of a shield bearing coat armory. An arrangement of heraldic elements around a graphic image not borne on a shield is not a coat of arms, but an emblem. Reliable sources on heraldry agree that the essential element of any "coat of arms" (so termed) is the shield; without a shield (which may be a traditional heater shield or an oval, lozenge or rondel) there is no coat of arms. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 04:37, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I would agree it should be moved to Emblem of Guatemala. The "national" part is implied anyway, since Guatemala is an independent country. Arms Jones (talk) 20:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Flags of Roman Catholic Church

I would like to get some info about these Catholic flags (not about the flag of the Vatican City/Holy See) which are not present in the pages of Wikipedia:

• a flag similar to St.George's, used in feasts such as Corpus Christi;
• a flag found on FOTW (similar to this but elongated like this without pontifical CoA and considered "flag of Roman Catholics");
• Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Vexillum, a bright red flag with a pattern of six pointed stars with the crossed keys in the middle surmounted by a canopy and ending in a fork with tips adorned by a ribbon (something similar to this).--Carnby (talk) 18:21, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I think questions like these are better posted at Wikipedia:Reference desk. Good luck. Arms Jones (talk) 20:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Beginner to Heraldry

Hello to you all...

I am very keen on Heraldry and I would like you to advise me on what I should learn or read in order to better understand this science...What I would also like to ask is how all these emblems are made on a computer. Is there any particular software for making them?

Thanks in advance, StefSom (talk) 12:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I suppose you have already read the article heraldry. In the end of it is a fairly extensive literature list. You can start with the books listed there. Some would probably be available at your local library. As for software for making images, I don't know, but maybe someone else has an idea. Arms Jones (talk) 20:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Rationale for the use of national arms in a gallery?

Please give your input at Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive_44#Gallery of country coats of arms. Arms Jones (talk) 02:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Even if this debate is not over (far from it, it seems), I have made another suggestion at Talk:Gallery of country coats of arms#Suggested change to this page. If you would be so kind to give an opinion there? Arms Jones (talk) 11:32, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Always these copyright problems

The image of the coat of arms of South Africa and some other South African arms images have been deleted from Commons due to copyright problems. I just realized this and report it here. Arms Jones (talk) 10:42, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Could use help in Laval

I found a bit of a conflict on the arms for the House of Laval. The page there had the arms with the lion, which is also shown on the page for the town, Laval, Mayenne. Other pages and one book I found show the other arms (the quartered one) for some of the counts. I've left a note on the talk page there, but I'm hoping one of the experts here may be able to shed more light on this issue. Was there a dramatic change in the arms for the house at some point? Does the lion belong to the town and the quartered to the counts? I'm afraid this is beyond the sources I can easily access. Thanks for any insights. 1bandsaw (talk) 20:16, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

In looking around a little further on here, I've found that the quartered arms are suspiciously close to the arms of the House of Montmorency as shown on that page. Given that the Lavals after 1211 were descended in the male line from a Montmorency, that would seem to make sense, though it conflicts with the reported agreement of that marriage which indicates that the heirs of that marriage would take the name and arms of Guy de Laval (which was also mentioned in the one book on the House of Laval that I found that also shows the quartered arms for the Lavals). However, to update any information based on this suspicious similarity would violate the original research and the wikipedia is not a source policies. So I'm still hoping that someone here has access to additional source materials which could shed further light on the situation. 1bandsaw (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

A proposed merger

It has been proposed that the article New Zealand heraldry be merged into New Zealand Herald Extraordinary. Talk about this has for some reason started at the talk page of a redirect, here: Talk:New Zealand Herald of Arms Extraordinary Arms Jones (talk) 15:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Notability of a coat of arms

Could someone explain on this AfD nomination why a coat of arms is a notable enough subject for an article on Wikipedia? Thanks. – Editør (talk) 22:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Flag of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta

I created Flag of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta after seeing it on the list of tasks. It's not nearly as complete as most other sovereign-entity flag articles, but I think it is a good start. It needs some checking for formatting and categories; though I have been interested in both Wikipedia and vexilology for many years, I am new to this WikiProject.

I also was confused by the sources. The SMOM's own Web site makes it quite clear that the maltese-cross flag represents its medical and humanitarian activities. I have used this information in the article. But the FOTW site takes it for granted that this is the "grand master flag," citing various sources ([1], [2]). I wonder if this was a former use of the flag, before adding the collar and crown to the current personal standard?

Finally, someone with the ability to modify .svg's ought to make a version of the Maltese Cross flag in the same shade of red as the state flag. Fishal (talk) 00:35, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Image of coat of arms of Vatican City State

Anybody interested in the discussion at Talk:Coats of arms of the Holy See and Vatican City#Image of Vatican City coat of arms? Esoglou (talk) 13:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Counter-rampant or contourné

There's a fairly populated category of Lions counter-rampant in heraldry at Commons, but Lion_(heraldry)#Attitudes refers to contourné. The Illustrated atlas of French and English heraldic terms also translates contourné into counter-rampant. If the terms were to be standardised across the projects, is the English or French term the standard? ~ Nelg (talk) 14:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Map with coats of arms

Here a Map of Coats of Arms. Have fun with it.

If you want to support it, help to bring coat of arms into Wikidata. --Kolossos (talk) 11:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with Wikidata, can you explain the workflow with an example coat of arms? ~ Nelg (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

French Inkscape Coat of Arms Guide Translation Request

Could someone translate the French Inkscape Coat of Arms guide? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Symbols of Korea

FYI, Symbols of Korea (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been nominated for deletion -- 65.94.171.206 (talk) 05:40, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Flag of the Isle of Man

Bunch of WP:Canvassing

There is an ongoing dispute on Commons about the correct centring of the triskelion on the Flag of the Isle of Man. One of the disputants, Fry1989 has globally replaced every instance of the flag on the English Wikipedia with his version, File:Flag of the Isle of Mann.svg, which in his person opinion (which he has refused to provide sources to verify), is correctly centred (a rectangle surrounding the whole triskelion is horizontally and vertically centred on the whole flag).[3] The other disputant, user:SiBr4, has presented several sources to show the other version, File:Flag of the Isle of Man.svg, is correct (a circle surrounding the point where the three legs of the triskelion join is placed at the centre of the flag). The dispute is playing out at Commons:Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#SiBr4 and File:Flag of the Isle of Man.svg. There is serious need for input from knowledgeable people. Thryduulf (talk) 08:47, 10 April 2014 (UTC) Several sources? They have 1, which is not an official source but rather conjecture. I am maintaining Wikipedia asit has been for many years under the princple of BRD as there has been no proper consensus to change the image. You are deliberately describing this issue in bad faith rather than it's true situation. Fry1989 eh? 16:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

There is a big dispute at commons about the proper vertical centering for the triskelion on the flag of the Isle of Mann. I've collapsed the canvassing, above, and hopefully the participants take a hint and choose to keep their argument at commons. VanIsaac_WS^cont 18:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The point of posting here (and at the IoM project) is as a call for knowledgeable input to resolve the dispute not to export it, I'm sorry not everyone has taken it in that spirit. Thryduulf (talk) 16:35, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Please do not strikeout parts of other editor's comments. My notice informed people of the issue at hand, and neutrally, unlike yours. As an admin, you know better than to post a prejudicial notice about a dispute, you know better than to fracture a discussion across wikis(Fry did that, not you), and you know better than to refactor others' talk page comments to change their meaning. Everyone in that conflict is generating much more heat than light right now, so get control of yourself, and let people discover this conflict on their own terms. VanIsaac_WS^cont 21:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The striking out was by SiBr4 not by me. My notice was intended to be factual. Thryduulf (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

But if that were true, then I couldn't be mad at an admin for refactoring my talk page comments, and I'm stuck just yelling at you like an old man at kids in his yard. So I choose to believe that you were, in fact, responsible. And again, a non-neutral notification about a discussion is not kosher. You know it, I know it, do better next time. VanIsaac_WS^cont 05:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I struck the link to the AN/UP page because I wanted to direct users to the file talk page for discussing the files. I'm sorry if that's not allowed. SiBr₄ (talk) 08:11, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I've started a new section at the talk page of the image in question where anyone may comment on the issue of which of the two versions of the flag should be kept. The AN/UP thread should be restricted to discussing user behavior only. SiBr₄ (talk) 19:36, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Does anybody happen to own or have access to Graham Bartram's book "British Flags and Emblems"? If so a comment at the Commons file talk page would be appreciated. SiBr₄ (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

Please comment on a request for comment at Commons about which flag should be used. SiBr₄ (talk) 21:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Heraldry and Vexillology At Wikimania 2014

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 13:05, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Linking the relevant flag article from the country infobox

On the article currently located at Federal State of Novorossiya, there has been a flag article created at Flag of the Federal State of Novorossiya. Below the image of the flag at Federal State of Novorossiya is the word "Flag"; I have been attempting to make that link point to Flag of the Federal State of Novorossiya to no avail. If you look at User:Dustin V. S./Template sandbox (a cutout of the infobox for United States); you will see that the word flag is colored in blue and will send you to Flag of the United States, but I cannot seem to get the same to occur with my attempt because I cannot find a parameter to point directly to the flag article. I suspect that part of this has to do with the fact that the flag image is not located at File:Flag of the Federal State of Novorossiya.svg but is instead located at File:Flag of Novorussia (project).svg. Do any of you know how to work around this issue? Any of you good with templates? I cannot figure out the problem... I know this has more to do with the template than the flag, but I thought I would ask anyway, so thanks if you respond. Dustin (talk) 20:01, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dustin V. S.: The name of the flag file does not matter for the article linked to by the caption. If there is no special |linking_name= defined, the linked article name is defined by the |common_name= parameter, which is set to the United States in United States. To create a correct link at Federal State of Novorossiya, either alter the various name parameters or create a redirect from Flag of Novorossiya, the title it looks for with the current parameter values. SiBr₄ (talk) 21:43, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Okay, it worked! Thanks for the helpful information. Dustin (talk) 22:02, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

British coats of arms needed

Hi, I'm here because my request on commons didn't provide me in any of the requested coats of arms, and I didn't know about this project. I'm working on articles about three coats of arms:

• Rochester upon Medway source
• Chatham, Kent source
• Medway source

Could these three be made? I'm not active on en.wiki anymore, so in case of questions, please give me a sign by mail, message on my talkpage (I'll recieve an email) or message me on my talkpage (I've provided you a link for a new topic). Thanks, Dqfn13 (talk) 16:17, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Anybody who can help me in here? Without those coats of arms it is pretty hard to write an article... Dqfn13 (talk) 09:21, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Is this project dead?, I've done this request a month ago and no reactions since... Dqfn13 (talk) 20:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Hallo Dqfn13, I'm not aware of the situation of this project, but I can tell you that this raster images looks relatively good and (complex) a "good" SVG for this would be expensive. Is it not allowed to take simply the raster images? → User: Perhelion  22:08, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

The site has a "Copyright 1998-2014 Civic Heraldry of England and Wales" notice, so the CoAs have to be remade in order for them to be free (nlWP apparently does not accept non-free uploads). SiBr₄ (talk) 12:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the reaction, I realy feel like: finally! Unfortunatly SiBr4 is right: the site states the .jpg are not free to use. I can ask the owner ofcourse, I won't use his/her texts. Dqfn13 (talk) 10:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Colored COA books of the Bibliotheca Windhagiana

Colored COA books of the Bibliotheca Windhagiana

For those of you, who do not yet know the colored COA books of Joachim Enzmilner, a.k.a. Joachim von Windhag, there are four comfortable links available (however, so far only in German):

1. Colored COA book No 1
2. Colored COA book No 2
3. Colored COA book No 3
4. Colored COA book No 4 --NearEMPTiness (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Aleš Brožek

Dear flag people: Here's an old AfC submission that will soon be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable person, and should the page be kept and improved instead? —Anne Delong (talk) 23:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Blazon for a coat of arms

Hello! I am currently working on a article about a Swedish family and I need someone who speaks "heraldese" to help me get the blazon of their coat of arms right. The article is Draft:Grill (family) (moved) and my own pitiful attempt of describing the coat of arms is at ref no. 4. A good picture of the shield can be found here. I would be very grateful if any of you good people could help me with this. The right blazon can be written wherever is most convenient for you: at my talk page, here, at the ref or somewhere in my sandbox. And if you have the time, could you check if I got the vexillology right at Götheborg (ship)#Flag. Much obliged, w.carter-Talk 22:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

My blazon for that would be: Or, standing on a triple mount sable, a crane holding a cricket on its beak proper. Cricket or grasshopper seems interchangeable in the sources, but I used cricket since it's supposed to be canting arms for the Italian word "grillo". Unfortunately I cannot blazon anything not on the shield itself, such as the mantling, helmet, etc. Reigen (talk) 01:25, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much! :) The "middle" is the most important bit. The rest can be skipped for now. It just looks bad launching such an article with a poor blazon. Best, w.carter-Talk 21:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Palatine Lion and List of coats of arms with the Palatine Lion

Hi. I've just translated the above articles and would be grateful for an expert eye on some of the heraldic terminology. Happy to discuss on their talk pages as well. --Bermicourt (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I just did a quick skim of the former. I didn’t notice any heraldic errors (not that I’m an expert) but I did spot a couple of untranslated items: at the end of the second sentence under “Post-war period”, the word eine (“itself“? or just remove?), and the Commons link at the end. (I deleted the German Löwe (Wappentier) cat, whose English equivalent is already there.)

The quantity of images under “Forms” might be considered excessive; IMO it could be better justified if some of the captions were expanded to describe the differences (couped, dimidiated, contourné, &c.)—Odysseus1479 18:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Clan Buchanan Heraldry

Dear heraldry experts: Please check out this old AfC submission which will soon be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable topic that should be kept and improved? —Anne Delong (talk) 15:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

It doesn’t appear usual for clans to have separate articles for their heraldry, and this piece contains quite a bit of general or introductory information that I’m sure is covered elsewhere. So my own inclination would be to merge the relevant content into Clan Buchanan. @Anne Delong: I suggest you post at WT:WikiProject Clans of Scotland as well—another pretty quiet board, but some of the editors in that field work with quite a bit of heraldic content.—Odysseus1479 19:29, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Odysseus; I didn't know about that project. I have taken your advice and posted there. —Anne Delong (talk) 20:37, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Israeli coat of arms

Hi. Please voice your opinion on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Emblem_of_Israel#Requested_move. Thanks. -Ssolbergj (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Early Swedish flag

Ever since this edit to flag of Sweden in 2007, it's been accepted as established fact that the Swedish state and war ensign was a double-tailed flag until 1663. It was even used for {{flagicon}} for anything relating to Sweden c. 1562-1663 until I questioned it recently. As far as I can tell, there seems to be no evidence of any "official" standardized flags as early as the 16th century. Since this particular statement has been accepted for over seven years, I'm asking for more input on the matter at talk:flag of Sweden#Double tail needs support.

Peter ^Isotalo 21:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Heraldry-related Featured Picture nomination

The images from the book State Arms of the Union highlighted in Historical coats of arms of the U.S. states from 1876 (a newly featured list) have been nominated as a Featured Picture set. Comments/reviews are welcome through 27 September 2014.--Godot13 (talk) 05:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

One tip: this project has not set any clear goals. The goals in this project are simply to big. I'm doing a simular project on the Dutch Wikipedia and there it was very succesful, we've met our goals there. So very simple: set mesurable goals, make them "smart". Dqfn13 (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Advice, please: Royal Society of Chemistry

Hi,

I recently began work as the Wikimedian in Residence at the Royal Society of Chemistry. I'm trying to understand the difference between the coat of arms image at File:RSC Arms.svg and the one seen on the page at [4], with lion and unicorn supporters, motto, etc. How should each of these be referred to, and when are they used? Which would be better, in the article? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The first shows the shield or escutcheon; the second shows the full achievement, with crest, supporters, etc. They can both legitimately be referred to as the coat of arms. When to use which is entirely a matter of choice: obviously, the shield alone is simpler, so is more appropriate in contexts where the image has to be smaller, or you want it to stand out more boldly; the achievement is more appropriate in more formal contexts, or those where you have the space to make a grand gesture. (If you like, it's like the difference between referring to Winston Churchill or Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH, TD, DL, FRS, RA.) In the wp article, it would arguably be preferable to use the full achievement, as it shows all the elements to which the Society is entitled, but there's nothing wrong in using just the shield. GrindtXX (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

@GrindtXX: That's a clear and helpful reply; thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:42, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

@GrindtXX: I've now uploaded a fair-use copy, and short description, to Royal Society of Chemistry#Coat of arms. If you or anyone else feel inclined to expand on that, please do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention

This is a notice about Category:Heraldry and vexillology articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 22:43, 18 October 2014 (UTC)