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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Archive 31

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Latest comment: 12 years ago by Guerillero in topic Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles
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Get a Grip!

Latest comment: 12 years ago18 comments8 people in discussion

This debate is just so funny! It goes on, and on, and on, and on. Will it ever be resolved? I think not. Views on both sides are so entrenched, and the attempts at wheeling and dealing are not working and like as not never will. So maybe you can take me as an outsider with a tangential interest and allow me to offer a view. I generally support the loyalist standpoint in Irish matters but I don't really mind what Ireland is called in Wikipedia. Ireland is the official name of the state, and as someone pointed out above, it would look correct in a list like this: France, Spain, Ireland, Germany etc. I think you should all just go for moving Republic of Ireland to Ireland, and Ireland to Ireland (island). It's no big deal. The fact that the UK refer to Ireland as 'The Republic of Ireland' is irrelevant. It is more important what they call themselves. So come on! Go for it and stop pratting about! Does it really matter? No! BUT - and here's the rub. All you editors that are interested in official names - think on about Londonderry. So if you want the official name for Ireland why don't you accept the official name for Londonderry? Then we wouldn't have editors trawling the project shouting IMOS every time they replace Londonderry (city) with Derry. So there you have it. Go for Ireland and Ireland (island) but only if you accept Londonderry for the name of the city and the county. Can't say fairer than that - can we? Van Speijk (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Support Van Speijk is correct and fair. Ireland, the country in Europe, at a page titled "Ireland". The geographic island of Ireland at a page titled "Island of Ireland." I support this simple and correct proposal. Thank you. XoX — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.73.181 (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Can of worms status: open! BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
England doesn't refer to it as the Republic of Ireland. It refers to it as Ireland. Ireland for the island is a good choice as that's what most people want to look up. Ireland is he official name and Republic of Ireland is the official description for disambiguation purposes. If you ever read some of te debates in the Dáil you'll find the state quite often referred to as the Republic of Ireland there. One can always change the name in lists by piping and this is recommended in places like lists of countries because there's no confusion there. Dmcq (talk) 18:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Usage of "Republic of Ireland" for disambiguation is fine and dandy. How else would it work? But using the term as the article title is what I believe is wrong and objectionable. I know it's tempting to conflate the two issues as they're closely related, but I wouldn't support banning usage of "Republic of Ireland" as a dab term within articles if it was part of this proposal, but I do support changing the article title. --HighKing (talk) 20:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not understand the issues raised above by Dmcq and HighKing. May I request clarification. XoX.203.206.73.181 (talk) 03:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Only one article can have the title 'Ireland'. Currently it is the island rather than the state because that is the most common usage. That leaves the problem of what to title the article about Ireland the state. The preferred options are either the official government disambiguation 'Republic of Ireland' as currently or else something that says the official name with a Wikipedia disambiguation marker 'Ireland (state)'. The dab business is about the Derry/Londonderry issue where people insist on Wikipedia always using Derry, and as far as I can see Highking seems to have got the idea I'm talking about doing the same sort of silliness to Republic of Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Reply to Dmcq

(A) The issue raised by Dmcq, above is based on the statement "it is the island rather than the state because that is the most common usage." This statement is incorrect.

(B) On a quick search as to the common usage of Ireland on Google. One finds that 70% + of the results refer to Ireland as the country in europe and 20% - of the results refer to the island of Ireland.

[C] This would indicate that on common usage the wikipedia pages should be as follows: Ireland, the country in Europe, at a page titled "Ireland". The geographic island of Ireland at a page titled "Island of Ireland." XoX. 203.206.50.115 (talk) 03:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know how you got that from your reading of google. Have you been counting every reference to a vaction in Ireland as meaning excluding Northern Ireland? The tourist agencies try not to separate the two in their literature and present a common front. Dmcq (talk) 09:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I searched the first one hundred enteries in Google for the term "Ireland". There were three basic results (1) references to the Ireland country in Europe 70%. (2) references to a vacation in Ireland, counted as Island of Ireland 20%. (3) others mainly specific references to Northern Ireland. One needs to have a full sample size of 100 enteries to ensure reliability of the results. I also search Google news as for the above and found over 80% of them are referring to Ireland the country in Europe on a consistent basis. XoX 203.59.126.135 (talk) 00:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Away you go then. I'll pop back every once in while to see how things are going. Van Speijk (talk) 18:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I had hoped to do something about the Derry/Londonderry question but I'm waiting for all this to go away for a decent period. Linking the two is just warring to no purpose and entrenching silliness. Dmcq (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
But the issues are linked nonetheless. --HighKing (talk) 20:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
In what way are they linked? The Londonderry crowd don't have a big enough constituency to have an effect one way or the other on the Republic of Ireland issue. Otherwise they'd have been able to get a better decision on what really irks them. Dmcq (talk) 22:50, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Linked in the sense that the most common complaint about the RoI title (Evertype's argument being the notable exception) is that it isn't at the official name and so should be moved to the official name. Which is the same argument put forward for moving Derry to Londonderry. Except those supporting "RoI -> Ireland (dodecahedron)" or "RoI -> Ireland" all seem to have contrived to omit having Derry or IMOS on their watchlists whenever that particular discussion comes up. But there I go repeating myself. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes it does make a mess of the official name argument. I have no intention of trying to change the title of the article though or use that argument, just avoid the business of always referring to it as Derry when the main citations of a article talk about Londonderry. Basically allow a bit more freedom in references to it. So at least I'm consistent in not favouring the official name for either topic! Dmcq (talk) 23:52, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes I like your comment on the Irish Wikipedia too ;-) It's a bit sad that page still has Bertie Ahern as the taoiseach. Dmcq (talk) 00:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
@Bastun, the difference between Derry and RoI is that "Ireland" is the common and official name, while "Derry" is the common and "Londonderry" official. That is a different set of conditions. It is not comparable to this situation; just like "Bill Clinton" is best over the official name and "Greece" is best over the official name, but those naming discussions aren't comparable here. In this case the current title is not official, not more common, not preferred and not the best. It's not even the name. By the way, I've weighed in at Derry, I compared it to Ventura, California, but only as a fleeting thought, there are obvious differences. Ventura is common, San Buenaventura official for those in a hurry. Sswonk (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Two possible solutions

Latest comment: 12 years ago170 comments27 people in discussion
Closed by Evertype

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the straw poll was that Option B (moving one article only) had more support than Option A (moving three articles), where the option for moving was Ireland (state). -- Evertype·✆ 16:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I am pleased to see that discussion has turned towards this at last. I believe that there are two possible solutions. The current situation is this:

  • Current situation: A disambiguation page at Ireland (disambiguation). The island at Ireland. The state at Republic of Ireland.

But this hasn't stopped the argument. I propose that we look at adopting one of these two options, either on our own (if we can grasp that nettle) or by offering the choice to the wider community:

  • Option A: A disambiguation page at Ireland. The island at Ireland (island). The state at Ireland (state).
  • Option B: A disambiguation page at Ireland (disambiguation). The island at Ireland. The state at Ireland (state).

I happen to prefer Option A, because it seems the more neutral of the two, but I could live with Option B as it too avoids the impasse caused by the current situation. -- Evertype·✆ 11:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

This debate reminds me of those referendums you sometimes have in Ireland (and in Denmark I think). You know, the ones where you have to keep voting until you get the "right" answer. Van Speijk (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps, but the upside is we eventually get it 'right' ;- ) RashersTierney (talk) 19:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Unfortunately this method only works with irreversible decisions. Hans Adler 23:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
What happen to option C? GoodDay (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
It was inadvertently removed when turned it into a poll with this edit, I have reinstated it. Mtking (edits) 00:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
That's would be alright if this was only a poll to decide which name to choose if the articles were moved. But, I gather this Poll was simply to 'move' the articles. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The poll is about Options A and B. Some people wish to register their preference for Republic of Ireland and are writing in an Option C. That is not what the poll is about. We know that some people like Republic of Ireland. The problem is that this title causes no end of strife. -- Evertype·✆ 00:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
If A or B is the choice of this poll? what happens next? GoodDay (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

To put it a bit more neutrally: There is currently no majority for any of the alternatives to the status quo, and in fact even summing up the support for all individual alternatives does not seem numerically sufficient. Since editors tend to go with the crowd, especially in contentious disputes that most want to end, this may change once we offer a single alternative in a widely advertised, binding RfC, to be decided by majority vote. Or maybe not. But we have only one chance to do this, and this poll is part of an attempt to find the alternative that has the best chances in such a two-option RfC.
I suppose the next step depends on how clear the outcome of this poll is. Hans Adler 09:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Have to agree with Van Speijk. This issue will continue on and on until those who have glossed over the fact most editors prefer the status quo get the answer they want. If its a tactic of attrition, it doesn't seem to be working. Mabuska (talk) 17:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Straw poll

I have now edited this to look like a straw poll. If you dislike the way I edited something you wrote, please revise it. -- Evertype·✆ 16:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I do think that we need to avoid the pick 1 from x route, we need to as a project work on a proposal with the aim of a wiki-wide RfC in the form of a simple "Do you support changing the name of 'Article X' to 'abc'" and see if there is a consensus to support that change. Mtking (edits) 23:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Not A, maybe B I strongly object to A. I think B is much inferior to, and less reader- (as opposed to editor-) friendly than the current situation, but if adopting it is going to give us a stable situation where everyone can get on with editing in peace, I'd be willing to accept it. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment The welcome comments by Dcmq and Rashers Tierney above may indicate that there is some merit to the point that the common usage of "Ireland" today refers to one Ireland. There is the Ireland of; the Rugby team, the Chartered Accountants, the Golfing Union of Ireland. 25,000 Irish people attended the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. 20,000 Irish people are members of Chartered Accountants Ireland. Over 20,000 Irish people are members of the Golfing Union of Ireland. There are more, many more, in organisations throughout Ireland. These all reflect that in the real world today it is normal to refer to one Ireland. In this reference to one Ireland it incorporates the separate administrations in Belfast and Dublin. An accompanying map can easily show the two administration areas. Wikipedia is best served as an encyclopaedia that reflects the real world and may be best served by one inclusive article on "Ireland". Saturday. 124.169.49.130 (talk) 13:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
And there are separate aricles about those organizations because they are separate topics. It is just not sensible to have an article about the Golfing union and not have articles on the separate administrations. We have articles on topics like County Kerry for instance. They are all highly notable topics. Going your way we'd have to have just one humongous article about the British Isles to solve other problems. Dmcq (talk) 13:58, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Merging the articles was one of six options in a 2009 poll. It attracted by far the fewest number of votes. The discussions since September this year shows that it still has minimal support. I think it would be good to close off this cul-de-sac now. There are two proposals under discussion. Scolaire (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option B: A straight move of ROI to Ireland (state). This has been and remains the only proposal that people on both sides have said they could live with, or that they would not oppose in certain circumstances. In the current round of discussions the following editors have said that they could support it or wouldn't oppose it. I give dates and times in UTC and I give permission to anybody to replace those with actual diffs:
    • Valenciano 15:09, 20 September 2011
    • Sswonk 03:04, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
    • Evertype 17:28, 22 September 2011
    • RA 09:33, 19 September 2011
    • Dmcq 08:33, 12 October 2011 (NB incorrectly attributes the view to Bastun)
    • ComhairleContaeThirnanOg 14:35, 12 October 2011
    • Kauffner 04:53, 19 October 2011 (sorta)
    • Evertype 11:44, 17 October 2011
    • Sam Blacketer 10:46, 19 October 2011
    • GoodDay 02:36, 19 October 2011
    • BritishWatcher 17:59, 21 October 2011
    • RashersTierney 12:08, 19 November 2011
    • ComhairleContaeThirnanOg 12:46, 19 November 2011
    • --Red King (talk) 00:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
In addition to these comments from this year, the proposal gained a lot of cross-party support in December 2008, when it became known as the "Mooretwin proposal". The vote can be seen here (21 "supports" including "conditional", "cautious" etc.). --Scolaire (talk) 15:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
What's your point? I note that your name does not appear in this list. Come off the fence, already. Divulge your view. Sheesh. -- Evertype·✆ 01:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
In response to Scoláire's very angry post in my talk page I would like to say is that while he may think that he has given his "explicit support to one of the two options" I proposed, I don't see such explicit support in the posting above. What I see is a list of other people's names (including mine, twice). I don't see Scoláire saying explicitly "I support Option B". That's why I said to him "Divulge your view." If that is his view, I would be glad for him to actually state so in so many words. -- Evertype·✆ 14:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
In a straw poll where two options - numbered, bolded and asterisked - are offered, "*Option B" means "I support option B". That is hardly rocket science. Any sane person, in the light of your ignorant response, would strike through that support and change to "oppose all options". I will not. Scolaire (talk) 15:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
It wasn't clear to me that you were "voting" in a straw poll. It looked as though you were just discussing the option. If that makes me ignorant enough for you to call me ignorant, so be it. Thank you for clarifying that you support Option B. I'm sorry that my ignorance cause me to write things at which you took offence. -- Evertype·✆ 16:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Well my support of B is more of the 'I'll give you a stroke' kind. Dmcq (talk) 16:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I said: "Personally i dont have a big problem with Ireland (country) or Ireland (State), i just prefer the status quo and strongly oppose any attempt by a small number of editors to have the country take Ireland position. " I do not consider that to be saying i would support or would be ok with seeing it changed. I have stated i support the status quo and oppose any change, that proposed change is just the least worst option if a change had to be made.. but there is no justification for a change as far as im concerned and i do have a problem just not as big a problem with it as other options. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Really? What "issues"? The issue here is that Republic of Ireland as the article title does not foster a collaborative environment for WikiProject Ireland. It fosters nothing but the kind of arguments we have had for nearly a decade. This Option C as you call it has been in force for two years, and that period of "stability" has solved nothing. -- Evertype·✆ 20:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Well for starters how does it fit into existing policy, how is it going to make the situation stable, does it come with another lock in period, is it going to lead to mass editing of articles to enforce and if it is, is that acceptable and if not what steps should be taken to avoid. Just to list a few off the top of my head. I would be happy to see the Project work on Option B (Option A I think is a non starter) to see if it can be formulated into a clear and concise proposal with a view to the a wiki-wide support/oppose RFC. Mtking (edits) 23:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
It is late and I am going to bed. But to answer: (1) "Existing policy" is a broad canvas and I don't know quite what you refer to. The article Republic of Ireland would be re-named to Ireland (state). (2) Yes, I would propose it to come with a two-year lockdown period. It is my belief that this choice would lead to the kind of stability WikiProject Ireland lacks. (3) If the article name were changed, then yes, many articles would have to be edited. All would pipe to the new article title. Article text might remain "Republic of Ireland" in some cases, or be changed to "Ireland" or "the Republic" in other cases, depending on specific context. -- Evertype·✆ 00:31, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option C - to be clear, I would support a move so long as it was policy driven rather than personal preference driven. I haven't got a problem with the status quo, except that I think it may breach both WP:NPOVTITLE and WP:NDESC. However that the current proponents of a move do not suggest any policy breaches leaves me in a difficult position. I reject A and B as not following article naming policies. Fmph (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Every Wikipedia "policy" is nothing more than a guideline and every one of them can be overridden if there is a suitable reason to do so. I have already suggested that the truth value of arguments either for or against the use of Republic of Ireland is irrelevant since the name itself is controversial to (at least) some editors. People who think that Republic of Ireland is a suitable title cannot win the argument and convince people who think it is unsuitable that it is suitable. And people who think that Republic of Ireland is an unsuitable title cannot win the argument and convince people who think it is suitable that it is unsuitable. This is a lose-lose situation that damages WikiProject Ireland. Now a formulation Ireland (state) is already in use in other language versions of the Wikipedia: Franco-Provençal frp:Irlande (payis), Faroese fo:Írland (land), French fr:Irlande (pays), Latin la:Hibernia (res publica), Dutch nl:Ierland (land), Low Saxon nds-nl:Ierlaand (laand), Tagalog tl:Irlanda (bansa), and Zeelandic zea:Ierland (land). It is clear from this that this particular formulation is permitted on the Wikipedia and so is not a breach of article naming policies. (Note that all of those languages can formulate Ireland for the name of the country as well as Republic of Ireland for the name of the country—but instead, they use the formula Ireland (state).) It is for this reason that I am asking everyone to think not of their own arguments about being right, but about a better editing environment for everyone in the WikiProject Ireland. The arguments about the "status quo" make us all look foolish, and those arguments will never go away. We have seen them for a decade. -- Evertype·✆ 20:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
@Fmph, I strongly disagree that "the current proponents of a move do not suggest any policy breaches". I have written extensively about POV issues, about verifiability issues and about the outlier status of en.wikipedia.org versus reliably sourced external reference works with regard to the Ireland titling here. I abhor using bluelinks, they are misused constantly. Please forgive, but to give a hint here, the misapplication of policy with irrelevant bluelinks to what are in fact essays such as "IDONTLIKEIT" compels me to take the opposite road and avoid their use, on purpose. I hope you will reconsider. 'Republic of Ireland' as a title has been touted as a "solution", something that "works". I think the application of RoI at the end of a decision tree based on false logic and navel gazing over control of editor behaviour represents a form of original research, if that helps. Wikipedia is wrong on the title, it is in the minority and it should break out of the spell it has put itself under. Sswonk (talk) 22:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
'Every Wikipedia "policy" is nothing more than a "guideline" ... - Nonsense. There are policies, guidelines and essays. Policies are not override-able. Guidelines can be overwritten, but only with good reason. All I want is for the proponets of the move to start talking about the change in terms of abiding by policy. You guys don't want to do that, then thats fine. Just count me out. If you can quote and reference policy, then I suspect you would have me and many others on your side. Fmph (talk) 13:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I couldn't disagree more. All the actual arguments, whether in policy terms or otherwise, have been rehearsed at length, if not this time, in the 2009 discussion. Neither the proposed titles nor the policies themselves have changed significantly since that discussion, so there's no need to start arguing about it in poilcy terms again. Anyone who wishes can go back and re-read the arguments that were made then. What we have here is a proposal for a compromise in order to get us over the fact that some people are extremely unhappy with the last decision that was made, and we're trying to see whether there is some level of consensus in favour of adopting that compromise. I think we should take all the substantive arguments as read. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Hear, hear. Well put. -- Evertype·✆ 16:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The basic principle I follow is what is best for what people read. There are loads of people who drag on old arguments on Wikipedia and they are a nuisance and do not help but that is more of a conduct issue. Instead of citing trouble here I would prefer people to cite issues that fall within the content policies. I see nothing in what Evertype wrote there that has any bearing on the issue as far as I'm concerned. Dmcq (talk) 00:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option C, with Option B as second choice. Hans Adler 23:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC) After the clarification of the poll's purpose as I understand it, Option B. However, if this is an attempt to get the status quo off the table altogether (as some editors appear to view it) as opposed to finding the best contender, then I protest against the manipulation and choose Option C. Hans Adler 09:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I have tried to be very clear, Hans. Republic of Ireland as an article title cause nothing but strife and argument and is no solution. It has had its day. It's a failure. It is time to choose something else and give that a chance. This appears to be Ireland (state). Having a poll which might result in the retention of Republic of Ireland is no solution: it's just kicking the can down the road. -- Evertype·✆ 11:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
You are trying to dismiss the status quo, i.e. the outcome of the last big RfC, by begging the question. It is by no means clear that there is any solution that is not at least as bad as the status quo, so just excluding the approaches that don't work one by one makes no sense. Any change that is not based on a wide RfC that offers the status quo as an option will lead to worse problems because a massive number of people will feel run over and treated extremely unfairly. Following your approach, we would get yet another different approach in two years' time, and so on. At some point (in 50 years or so when all reasonable approaches would have been exhausted) we would probably end up with "The green island", "The northern part of the green island" and "The rest of the green island". Hans Adler 11:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I have observed that the outcome of the last big RfC resulted in a situation which was constant for 2 years, and then when the 2 years was up, the arguments started alllllll over again. Obviously that is not beneficial to WikiProject Ireland. Another article title is likely to achieve better results. I believe that after 2 years of Ireland (state) we will not have a huge upswelling of requests to revert to Republic of Ireland. Your predictions about the "the green island" are not credible. -- Evertype·✆ 16:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
While it is clear that not everybody believes that the status quo is ideal, this does not mean that it is not the majority-preferred solution, nor that it might be viewed as the least worst option - indeed my view is that it is significantly better than either of the 'allowed' choices. Thryduulf (talk) 16:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option B, in answer to the originally posted proposal([1]): "I propose that we look at adopting one of these two options". Per Scolaire, Option B contains the most fertile ground for discussion. NB, "Option C" statements are comments, the offered choices were "A" and "B". Sswonk (talk) 02:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option B: The least worst option ... and the one with the best chance to stick long-term. Daicaregos (talk) 12:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option C: as the only one that doesn't include "Ireland (state)" which is inconsistent with naming conventions for countries and common names. I explicitly oppose Option A and oppose option B (equally) for the same reason. The state should be at either Ireland (its official name) or Republic of Ireland (its official description) and which are the two most common names; I don't have a preference which. I also very strongly object to the poll not allowing the option of the status quo. Thryduulf (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
A formulation Ireland (state) is already in use in other language versions of the Wikipedia: Franco-Provençal frp:Irlande (payis), Faroese fo:Írland (land), French fr:Irlande (pays), Latin la:Hibernia (res publica), Dutch nl:Ierland (land), Low Saxon nds-nl:Ierlaand (laand), Tagalog tl:Irlanda (bansa), and Zeelandic zea:Ierland (land). It is clear from this that this particular formulation is permitted on the Wikipedia and so is not a breach of article naming policies. Moreover on the English Wikipedia Georgia (U.S. state) and Georgia (country) are used. Your suggestion that Ireland (state) is inconsistent with naming conventions for countries and common names is not credible. Moreover, Ireland is the official name and the common name of, erm, Ireland. So we should move from Republic of Ireland to Ireland, right? No: because that would cause just as much trouble as Republic of Ireland does now. Finally, the poll should be in the format "It is proposed to move X to Y", not "What name do you want, X or Y?" -- Evertype·✆ 16:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option C - absolutely rediculous to have a straw poll on a solution without including the current article name which many others are content with. Whilst Option B has merit, i don't see the need to change. Mabuska (talk) 17:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
As I said at the very beginning: We have had two years of Republic of Ireland as the name for the article of the state, and that in the intervening two years nothing has changed. The name has not become more acceptable to a selection of editors by constant use. And the consensus of the Collaboration was to re-open discussions about naming. Accordingly, it is clear that Republic of Ireland has failed to be a solution that everyone can accept. Naturally, the thing to do is to examine a range of other options, and try them on, say for two years. If then we see a huge upswelling of demand to return to Republic of Ireland then we should consider that. But I predict that we will not see such a demand. What I am basically saying is that this slow process has proved that Republic of Ireland is a poor name for the article about the state, and so now it is encumbant upon the WikiProject Ireland Collaboration to try something else. Once again: the problem is not the truth-value of the article name. A variety of names are accurate. The problem is unending argument over the article names. It is time to do something to put an end to that argument. It is the argument that is what damages WikiProject Ireland. And the argument will never go away with the title as it is. -- Evertype·✆ 17:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
"The name has not become more acceptable to a selection of editors by constant use." - And? We can't keep everyone happy and shouldn't pretend that we can find a solution that appeases all. I don't agree with the Londonderry/Derry IMoS compromise, however i accept the status quo on it. Should this collaboration and even Wikipedia itself be held to ransom by those editors who constantly go on and on with their demands for a change? Should those who said they preferred the status quo be rode over to appease those who will always go on and on about a change until they get it? You may feel that the current article name has failed, however despite your best intentions, your solutions won't solve the issue either.
On the "failed" name "Republic of Ireland", you do know in the 1990's the Irish government proposed changing the name of the state to that very name. Would of sorted this whole issue before Wikipedia was even born. The fact the Irish government makes use of the name anyways in various things and the fact they even considered changing the state name to Republic of Ireland at all shows it is fully viable name for the article - and the fact it is the official description of the state... Mabuska (talk) 17:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The Irish government proposed changing the name???!?!? What an extra-extraordinary claim to make. Where did you get that from? --HighKing (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Option A is certainly better than Option B. “Ireland” clearly needs disambiguation. I dislike “Ireland (state)” because there has been more than one state called Ireland, but if (as some claim) “Republic of Ireland” is absolutely incorrect even as a long name for the current country, then “Ireland (state)” is better. “Ireland (current state)” would be better still, as it’s unambiguous. (Yes, I’ve partially changed my mind on the country’s name since the previous vote.) MTC (talk) 20:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


  • I strongly object to a poll limiting the options to ones were the current state is located at Ireland (state) rather than Republic of Ireland. That is the common way to disambiguate the state and is, IMO, clearly the preferable title since Ireland is preoccupied. That said I prefer the setup in option A, over that in option B. I.e. my first choice is Ireland = disambiguation page, Ireland (island) = article about the island, Republic of Ireland = article about the modern state. But that's not listed on the poll. Since my preference for ROI is stronger than that against Ireland = article about the island, I prefer the status quo to either of the two choices given in the poll, as did a majority of the community in the last public vote. I also believe strongly that changing the name of the article on the modern state to Ireland (state) will not end the debate just switch the sides of the people arguing that the name is unacceptable. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment

I need clarification. The Poll seems to have been ment with only 2 options, now it's 3 options (or is it). Which is it? GoodDay (talk) 00:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Should be three. See above Mtking (edits) 00:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Okie, I changed the section heading to Three possible solutions, as Two.. was misleading. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The poll is about the two options A and B. C is not an option; C is the problem. -- Evertype·✆ 00:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I need further clarification: What happens if A or B gets overwhelming support? GoodDay (talk) 00:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
No one has a right of veto over any option. As for what happens, I would think it should be then put to a wiki-wide RfC to see if consensus exists to make the change.Mtking (edits) 00:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I just need to know, what'll happen if option A or B is chosen. GoodDay (talk) 00:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It's a fair question, and given WP:CONLIMITED, if the project can agree on an alternative proposal to the status quo the only reasonable route is a wiki-wide RfC to judge wider consensus. Mtking (edits) 00:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If A or B gets overwhelming support then we will know what level of change the members of IECOLL are prepared to consider. So far it appears that a change of only one article title is preferred (B rather than A). -- Evertype·✆ 00:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Just wanna be certain, that there will not be an attempt to move articles, when this poll closes. GoodDay (talk) 00:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
No unilateral action will be taken, if that is what you are wondering. It would take admin powers to make such a move anyway. -- Evertype·✆ 00:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I've restored my vote, with the understanding that A or B (the poll result) will be put up against C, in a wider poll. GoodDay (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
"C" is the problem. "C" is what guts WikiProject Ireland. "C" is what makes people angry at each other. Why should we put out a poll which offers to retain "C"? (I would imagine that it would take the form of "Shall the article be moved to X" and then participants might say yea or nay. I would not imagine that it would take the form of "Which article name should be used?" But my intent is clearly to encourage everyone in IECOLL to bravely choose something new with the expectation that WikiProject Ireland will become a better place for us all to work together, without this millstone around our neck. Indeed, perhaps we can get everyone to agree without having to poll at all. (One can hope.) -- Evertype·✆ 00:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I would have much preferred if it had been left as Scolaire had it rather than being turned into a poll. He was investigating the degree of resistance to a move which was a worthwhile thing to find out. That last section isn't going to lead anywhere useful now. Dmcq (talk) 00:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It will if people are of good will and are prepared to consider ditching a problematic title for a title which does not have the same baggage. We all know that people satisfied with Republic of Ireland do not prefer to change. But that's not the problem. The problem is that keeping it there does not satisfy a number of editors, some of whom have quit WikiProject Ireland because of the ill will the argument has engendered over the years. "Grasping the nettle" isn't an easy thing to do, but I am asking IECOLL to do it, because nothing will ever get better in the WikiProject Ireland if this thorn is not taken out of its side. I hope everyone is sensible enough to see this. The thing which dampens my hopes is the comments of people who claim that there isn't a problem. If theire weren't a problem we wouldn't have this Collaboration subgroup. So let's collaborate, already. -- Evertype·✆ 00:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
What I get out of it, is there is very little support for making any change to the article about the island, there is a some support for changing the article on the state, but more support for the status quo. Unless anything major changes in the !voteing pattens I don't think it is worth trying to formulate a proposal along the lines of Option B, as, to use a US political phrase, it is unlikely "to get of committee" Mtking (edits) 00:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
When the time comes, I'll be expecting a community wide poll concerning these 3 articles-in-queston. GoodDay (talk) 00:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I do not think we should recommend retention of the current article title, and it seems clear so far that "A" is very problematic for some. So why would we want to offer it as a choice? -- Evertype·✆ 00:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The whol community must have a say or such page moves will be highly disruptive. GoodDay (talk) 01:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
A multiple-choice is a bad idea, the aim of this project should be to formulate a single proposal for any change (accepting that no-change is a possible outcome) then to see if the project supports that proposal being put to the wiki-at-large, this should not be seen as either supporting or rejecting the specifics of the proposal, just that the proposal should be considered. Mtking (edits) 01:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I would propose that we consider the option below as the only true and verifiable one.

  • Option Ireland: To go with what is common usage in the real world, to use one "Ireland" and allow for a separate administration in Northern Ireland, to allow for two capitals Belfast and Dublin. This is best for wikipedia. To merge the two "Ireland" pages and see what happens. Which is more verifiable and common an "Ireland" or an "Ireland (state)"? 124.169.234.204 (talk) 00:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
GoodDay, regarding your statement just above, "The whole community must have a say or such page moves will be highly disruptive." According to the arbcom tag on the talk pages of all these articles, this forum is where the whole community must go to move the pages. There are about twenty people who are interested enough to keep coming back here, whether they support the general tenor of discussion in the past two years or not. You are one of those twenty, I'm another. Evertype has come back after a long absence. In my opinion, he is making an admirable effort to bring us together to face the core issue of the damage this has done to the quality of WP:Ireland articles, photography, templates: activities. I am tremendously gratified that he is making this effort. I think what he wrote is one of the brightest things anyone here has said in months: "But my intent is clearly to encourage everyone in IECOLL to bravely choose something new with the expectation that WikiProject Ireland will become a better place for us all to work together, without this millstone around our neck." If this core group can finally collaborate and move forward, with a single, multi-partisan, agreed upon title, the community would be quite gratified as well I think. The alternative, yet more RMs and votes and talk of more yearly discussion gags, is basically continued disruption. It disrupts the collaborative spirit by turning everything into competition and enforcement. In the Evertype scenario, this group might actually solve this and present Arbcom one day with a real, collaborative solution. I don't foresee arbcom or the community rejecting true collaborative effort. See this as an opportunity to participate in ending a stalemate and forging a stronger community better suited to truly covering Irish topics. Sswonk (talk) 01:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
There has to be a community poll & Republic of Ireland must be one of the options. GoodDay (talk) 02:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
What authority are you basing that on? This is the community, and we can find a solution through discussion. What you are talking about is the same old competition and enforcement route. Is it simply your opinion?, I mean it sounds very... oracular. Sswonk (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Let's wait & see which alternative option is nominated, first. GoodDay (talk) 02:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Anyways, let's see how this current poll ends. Then we'll have the alternative option to put up against the Republic of Ireland option. GoodDay (talk) 02:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The point of this discussion is to agree as a group to move beyond that very thing. Sswonk (talk) 02:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Many editors prefer the 3 articles as they're. We can't ignore them. GoodDay (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Some are participants here, they are not being ignored. Sswonk (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It seems like we are, going by what you and Evertype are saying above, where we're told Option C (the status quo) simply isn't an option and any resultant poll/RM/RfC after this one "...would take the form of "Shall the article be moved to X" and then participants might say yea or nay. I would not imagine that it would take the form of "Which article name should be used?" - which is non-neutral. If, on the other hand, this is a preliminary poll, along the lines of what I proposed on Nov 3, and actually run neutrally, then fine - I'll happily indicate my own preference in this preliminary poll, as long as the status quo is an the other option in the next. Forcing the removal of the status quo through some subterfuge wouldn't be acceptable, and any resultant poll, were it to go ahead, would be unlikely to result in much of a change from the 24-10 in favour of the status quo from the last poll. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It is my understanding that it is proposed to try and work towards a situation where this project agrees to hold a wiki-wide RfC on moving the article on the state to a new name. I don't think it is likely the project would ever in and of it's self agree to the actual move, but agreeing to hold a wiki-wide RfC is, I think within our grasp. If I am wrong please correct me. Mtking (edits) 10:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It would be magnificent if collaboration could result in the project's deciding to move the page. It would be a credit to all of us. If the project cannot make a decision, then the wider community should be asked. -- Evertype·✆ 11:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Bastun, the problem is that even if preferred by a majority Republic of Ireland is intensely disliked by a minority. Locking down the name and a moritorium on discussion for 730 days did not change that. it did not stabilize anything. It did not result in a better, more congenial working environment. Although Republic of Ireland won the 2009 poll, it is nevertheless a failure as an article title. The straw poll above was to determine whether members of this community would prefer, if Republic of Ireland were to be moved to Ireland (state), if the disambiguation page should remain the same or if it should be shifted to Ireland and if the island page should remain the same or if it should be shifted to Ireland (island). There seems to be little interest in those secondary moves. Your suggestion that a page move should be done "neutrally" begs the question of the "neutrality" of Republic of Ireland. As I say, that name is a failure even if it attracted many votes. It is not a neutral name. It is not a desirable name. It is a name that causes us nothing but trouble. We need another name for the article. Not game-playing where people are invited to keep the status quo because everything is fine the way it is. Everything is not fine the way it is. -- Evertype·✆ 11:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Please stop attributing your going on and on to other people. Your no compromise comments disrupt the investigation of a possible alternative. I agree with Jimbo on this 'Consensus is a partnership between interested parties working positively for a common goal. We must not let the "squeaky wheel" be greased just for being a jerk.' Dmcq (talk) 11:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The nettle is accepting that no matter how perfect the argument for Republic of Ireland as name for the article about the state, it cannot attract consensus, and this undermines the whole WikiProject Ireland. It is realizing that in the poll in 2009, Republic of Ireland won—but that its "winning" didn't actually solve anything. And since the Wikipedia is not about "winning", the nettle this time is to have a poll on a number of options excluding the Republic of Ireland option. We know that that one can "win". And we know that its winning doesn't achieve anything. -- Evertype·✆ 11:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
(ec: let's not use terms like 'jerk', if they can be avoided, please.) Two points. First of all, I think it would be fairer to say that there's not just 'little interest' in moving Ireland, but considerable opposition to it. More importantly, we do need consensus on any move, so if people are opposed to any move, they have to be free to express that opinion. We can establish that consensus if it's clear that enough people who prefer the status quo are nevertheless willing to accept the proposed move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) as a compromise. But we can't establish whether the consensus exists if we refuse to allow people to say that they remain opposed to that move. So I think there are, procedurally, two options. One is to consider this a straw poll that will establish whether <Republic of Ireland --> Ireland (state)> is the preferred option to be put forward in a requested move. The other is to treat this discussion as the move proposal. We need to clarify which of these two proceedings we are currently carrying out, because it seems to me that the situation is becoming confused. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
In a proposed poll to move X to Y, participants would "support" or "oppose", would they not? -- Evertype·✆ 11:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes. So is this that poll or is it a preliminary poll? If this is the poll on the move, people have to be free to say "oppose". If not, then let's be clear that a move proposal is the next step after this one (as suggested by HansAdler at the end of the previous section). ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Evertype, your views on the Republic of Ireland name are well known, it also well known that a reported minority dislike it. However that is NOT a reason to change it, and you are not going to make me change my mind if that is the only reason you can offer. As I see it the only way this project can be productive is to accept to work together to produce a rational and proposal that, irrespective of your personal view on the name choice, can be put out as a wiki-wide discussion, then if the consensus is to change, let it change, if the consensus is to retain then retain it is. So my question to you, Evertype, is, if , after a wiki-wide discussion, are you willing to accept that the outcome could well be that the consensus is to keep the article name as is for another 2 years ? Because if you are not you should consider going and doing something with your time. Mtking (edits) 12:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Evertype, nothing in your response to me above is anything but your own opinion. You say RoI is "intensely disliked by a minority." Agreed. We don't know how large or small that minority is, though. We do know that 75% of participants in the 2009 poll presumably had no problem with RoI, so that leaves a maximum of 25% of 245 who potentially "intensely dislike" RoI. Not all of those who didn't support RoI as an option, I am sure, don't "intensely dislike" it. And? WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not sufficient reason for a move, especially when it overrules a minimum of 75% who don't. "It did not result in a better, more congenial working environment." Your evidence for this? It's just your opinion. People worked away, pipelinked when necessary. RoI "is nevertheless a failure as an article title." Opinion. "It is not a neutral name. It is not a desirable name. It is a name that causes us nothing but trouble. We need another name for the article." Opinion, opinion, opinion, opinion. And by your logic, the fact that I and others intensely disagree with a move means your proposal to offer a poll without RoI as an option can't go ahead. After all, an uncertain number of people intensely dislike it. If you persist in trying to force the removal of RoI as the page title for the article on the state, by means of a poll that excludes that option, then I will be forced to ask Arbcom to intervene as it's nothing but disruptive. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I would much prefer if this 'poll' had been phrased as an attempt like Hans Adler said to find the best contender. Another way would be for people to put a number from 1 to 5 for each option from really dislike, don 't like, neutral, like, or really like. That we we could judge the strength of feeling rather than it being a straight poll. After that it would be possible perhaps to get some movement if it really would be for the best overall.
As to liking or disliking my feeling about it is that only ones with a halfway justifiable claim to a POV about it would be some people in Northern Ireland who might still feel saying just 'Ireland' is making a claim. We've had a decent period since the Belfast Agreement and it seems to be all working out with the politicians calling the other country by the proper name. I've never got the feeling anyone in the Republic or Britain ever actually gave a toss about it though and I'm not sure all that many in Northern Ireland do now either. Dmcq (talk) 12:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually, that is the way the poll is phrased. If you read the introduction, it says "I propose that we look at adopting one of these two options..." (italics added). Whatever anybody may have said in the meantime, it is too late now to change the terms of reference. Only three outcomes are possible: a consensus to look at A, a consensus to look at B, or a consensus not to look at anything. It is nevertheless a huge step forward. If the options can be narrowed to the "status quo" and one "minimum-disruptive" alternative, the potential for friendly dialogue leading to a permanent settlement will be increased enormously. Scolaire (talk) 14:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Scoláire. -- Evertype·✆ 16:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict)comment similar to Scolaire's @ComhairleContaeThirnanOg et al.: The originally posted proposal([2]) says: "I propose that we look at adopting one of these two options". I read that to mean, "let's chose one of these two to look at, which one?". This is a simple request to discuss which is more viable of "A" or "B". All previous comments taken into account and summarized by Scolaire, that looks to be "B". This is a "what should we look at" going forward. "Option C" statements are commentary, Evertype is not moving them away from the poll but they have no bearing on the initial question, which was hypothetical in nature, as I see it: "Which of these would be best to discuss?" Evertype will correct me if I am wrong. Sswonk (talk) 14:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Correct. -- Evertype·✆ 16:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Best to discuss in what way? As the replacement for the status quo, because Evertype and you "intensely dislike" it? Or as the option likely to attract most support/least opposition in a RM/Rfc at some point? The former is unacceptable, the latter is fine. But the two of you need to decide which it is, because in his response to Hans Adler above, Evertype seems to be implying it's the former. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me disingenuous for you to try to suggest that it is only Sswonk and me who "intensely dislike" the use of Republic of Ireland as the article title. Scores of editors over the past ten years have expressed their dislike for it. And it simply does not foster mutual respect or a positive editing environment, which is why many people don't bother editing articles on Ireland at all. The status quo stinks. -- Evertype·✆ 16:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I am not suggesting it is only you and Sswonk who "intensely dislike" it. "Scores" dislike it? Maybe. Maybe not. "Intensely" dislike it? Who can say. I can think of one or two editors, maybe. "And it simply does not foster mutual respect or a positive editing environment, which is why many people don't bother editing articles on Ireland at all." Is it? You've done a survey? And subtracted the hardline Republicans, now banned from the project? I think I'll file this claim under [citation needed]. Now, can you please answer the question that I've put to you on what you intend with this poll? There are several of us awaiting an answer. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Well I'd be quite happy with hardline Republicans expressing their views if they don't try to kill everyone else off in a discussion. But then again I'd be quite happy with hardline Loyalists on the same terms. Dmcq (talk) 16:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. If they would just leave it alone I would feel much happier with leaving my name under B like I have considering it as a check for the best contender but every time they write something I feel more and more like 'spoiling' it by putting my name with C. Dmcq (talk) 15:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
To use a sports comparison: This poll is a semi-final & the winner will face Republic of Ireland in the final. GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
That's your guess, GoodDay, and it's what I agree should happen, but Evertype isn't answering my direct question above on whether or not that's what he planning on trying to implement. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Evertype does not thank you for accusing him of things, and is going to have his tea. -- Evertype·✆ 17:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Oh, if there's an attempt to move the country article (or the other 2 articles) after this poll, I'll oppose it. I do believe this article should be moved to Ireland (state), but those who prefer Republic of Ireland shouldn't be left out. GoodDay (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for clarification

Is this poll, as GoodDay puts it, a "semi-final", the winner going into a "final" versus the status quo; or is it in fact the "final", an attempt to decide what term will be used to replace the page titles of the articles currently at Republic of Ireland and/or Ireland, with no option of retaining the status quo being offered? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If you have other options than Ireland (state) to move the article to, please offer them now. My reading of the previous discussion is that the only other viable alternative would be Ireland which I am certain will not attract consensus. -- Evertype·✆ 23:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Clearly it has to be the "semi-final" as I doubt the community would accept this projects authority to decide this matter. It is also a "semi-final" for a final whose procedure and timetable have not been agreed upon. I would see it more as a Boxing World Title Body deciding who they think is the next contender, we are some distance off the actual match. Mtking (edits) 21:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I think we've pretty much established that there's a substantial body of support for option B as a compromise, including by people who prefer the current title. At the same time, there are still quite a few people who won't support that. Rather than drag this qualifier stage out any longer, can we now formulate a move request for <Republic of Ireland --> Ireland (state)> on the basis that this is a proposed compromise solution, and see what happens? I should add that if this move is successful, but it results in further follow-on move proposals for Ireland, a return to the current set-up has to be one of the options up for discussion at that point. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 22:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I imagine one thing at a time is more than enough. -- Evertype·✆ 23:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough, but as you say yourself that you are taking it as read that Option B is preferred to Option A, maybe we can close this discussion now, get on with our editing or the rest of our lives, and then come back on 15 January for the move request? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
But we had a vote recently in which a clear majority stated they oppose any change at all.. a new poll putting a specific option against ROI is not needed if there isnt support for a change. One editor just keeps demanding a new vote and even attempts to excluse the option that has the most support from sucha poll. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
The tiny number of editors which voted on the recent poll is insufficient to assess the problem accurately. Please read the argumentation at the top of this page. It is not about whether a majority of 245 people plumped for Republic of Ireland two years ago. They did, and we had a freeze and moritorium, and the problem hasn't gone away. It's back. We have to deal with the problem again, and again, we need a community-wide poll, since IECOLL cannot seem to agree. -- Evertype·✆ 23:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
"IECOLL cannot seem to agree" - that is news to me, i was under the impression that people here within the last couple of months clearly stated they support the status quo and dont see a need for a page move at present. You disagree, and on a couple of occasions have attempted to compeltely restart a poll/debate, even attempting to exclude Republic of Ireland from the options entirely. The latest poll at present is showing more people supporting no change, rather than people voting for option A or option B. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake, why is there yet another poll? BritishWatcher (talk) 22:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC) For the record, i think it is absolutely disgusting the way a certain editor seems to think that Republic of Ireland which has clear majority support should somehow be dismissed. The "poll" above, is incredibly badly framed and if it decides anything other than to not change the status quo, it should be rejected and completely restarted. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Hundreds of thousands of people if not millions of people use the Wikipedia every day. The number of votes in 2009 is insignificant in comparison to that number. Moreover, your complaint does not address the issue that the problem has not gone away. The vote in 2009 froze the situation for two years. If that had been satisfactory, this present discussion wouldn't be going on. It wasn't satisfactory. We all agreed in 2009 to let go for two years. And we all did. And now we're back, with the same problem: No consensus that Republic of Ireland is the right title for the article about the State. -- Evertype·✆ 23:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I know I'm partisan, but I cannot see how the mess above could produce a result other than "no consensus that either option A or option B is better than all the other options" - i.e. after goodness knows how much verbiage it will leave the situation pretty much exactly where it was. I don't think you can even say that either option A or option B is preferred over the other. Thryduulf (talk) 22:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It certainly looks like that will be the result, but in this place when something comes first it tends to be declared by some to have lost the vote. So i wanted to get my objection in early lol BritishWatcher (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
FWIW BW, most likely any RM at Republic of Ireland, will fail. GoodDay (talk) 23:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I would hope, BritishWatcher, that you would take on board my argument that the good of the WikiProject Ireland outweighs the attachment or objection people have to the article title Republic of Ireland. -- Evertype·✆ 23:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Here is your answer. The intention is to have a poll of the nature of "Shall we move Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state)'?" It is not expected that this poll will begin before 15 January. This will allow participants of IECOLL to formulate and publish their views, arguments, and evidence, for the benefit of the wider community who may not have enjoyed the excruciation of the debate.

I take it as read that Option B above has prevailed over Option A, and recommend that the poll will not discuss moving the disambiguation page or the island page. -- Evertype·✆ 23:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Hope you enjoyed your tea. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
""You're welcome. It was nice and garlicky. I hope you are satisfied with my answer, and with a plan to go forward with a ballot in January which will offer a coherent set of arguments to the wider community about this issue. I believe I have been even-handed in my assessment of the situation. I hope that you will agree. -- Evertype·✆ 23:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Now that you've rolled back from the position of not having the status quo as an option, yes. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
There you go, accusing me again. Not so nice. -- Evertype·✆ 23:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Accusing you of what? Your comments earlier on this page certainly implied (to me) that that's what you wanted to do. If I misinterpreted, apologies. But if that's the case, I wasn't the only one to misinterpret. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I do not see the need for such a proposed poll when its clear there is no consensus to have a page move at present. If we did go ahead with the poll in question and the status quo wins.. what happens next? Will the page be locked in again for 2 years, or will we wait a month or two before all this blows up again? I want the best for the article, and i believe that is to keep it at Republic of Ireland and that there is no need for additional attempts to move the page after so many years. The fact this page has been overtaken and flooded with debate on the article names is unfortunate, but then that is one of the reasons for this page to exist to keep all of the endless debate away from talk pages where it would be more disruptive. The best option for the page and for this page, and for all of us here.. would be for those demanding change to accept there is at present not support for the change they seek. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I know you don't see the need for a poll. But others do. So there will be a poll. If your view prevails, it will prevail. If it does not, it will not. Yes, I propose another two-year moratorium. And after that two years, another move can be considered. But I believe that if we move to Ireland (state) then in two years we will not find an upswelling of people who want to see it changed back to Republic of Ireland, because the new status quo will be quite acceptable to everyone. It is only Republic of Ireland which is a red flag to a bull. -- Evertype·✆ 23:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
You mean one side will accept the verdict, unlike the other side which has constantly demanded change endlessly because they are unhappy with the result? And if we go down the 2 year lock path, again in 2 years time just like this the same editors intend to put up a big fuss and demand another wikipedia wide poll? BritishWatcher (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, if Ireland (state) prevails and after two years you want to re-open the tin of worms, by all means do. -- Evertype·✆ 23:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
{ec} Consensus can change. I support having another poll, starting Jan 15th, as long as the status quo is one of the options, because I believe it is the best solution and I don't accept that a) the current title is disruptive, and b) that it is "intensely disliked" by more than a handful of people (and even if it is, that's no grounds for change - there are plenty of things on WP that I intensely dislike, but consensus is against me changing them). I would also hope that if the result of that poll is (as I suspect) that the community prefers the status quo, that there is a new moratorium for a further two years. Preferably four. But there is no problem in principle with having that poll. I'll happily live with the result, whatever it is, for those 2 (or 4) years - I just hope that everyone else can too. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Two years. Not four. -- Evertype·✆ 23:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

(ec):Help me out here. How is this process going to lead to anything but a requested move? Like the one that closed less than a month ago? Which was advertised at RfC, and whose closing comments included Indeed, this is not so much a "no consensus" close as it is "consensus not to move".? Mr Stephen (talk) 00:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Well I've seen far worse debates in Wikipedia and I see no requirement yet to ask for an AN/I ban or anything like that. I'm happy enough for Evertype et al to go an put this forward again in 6 months plus however long this takes if the consensus is against a move. Dmcq (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
If there is another poll which there shouldnt be.. this can not come up again in 6 months time.. it needs to be locked for at least 2 years.. if not longer, otherwise all this time wasting will take place again. But there is no need for a new poll, ,there was a proposal to make such a move not that long ago as Mr Stephen pointed out.. Why the need for yet another poll, im losing count of how many there have been since the articles became unlocked in September. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
I think you're missing the point. Locking the article down doesn't make the issue go away. Consider the edit-warring that erupted during the lockdown period over where to pipelink. In fact, I see a lot of familiar faces taking part in this discussion edited along those lines - and lets face it, it's strongly related. --HighKing (talk) 01:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I like the idea that 15 January is contemplated as the start date for the next round. I hope it is intended that the straw poll will be closed (closure by the OP would probably be best) by the end of this month, allowing all of us to relax over the festive season. The festive spirit should then allow us to have a non-confrontational and productive discussion which, if a sufficient number of people are convinced, might very well lead to an RM whose outcome might be a good deal less predictable than the RM of last month. Rushing into another poll of any sort is not something I would advise. Scolaire (talk) 01:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree. But I'm not for dragging it out endlessly. -- Evertype·✆ 11:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) We are in danger here of putting the cart before the horse. We look as if we are moving towards putting the question to a wiki-wide RFC to make a move to the ROI article, before that can be done, we need to agree :
  1. The exact framing of the RFC question,
  2. How the outcome is going to be judged so as to avoid one side or the other being unhappy with the result.
  3. What happens after a move/no move, is there a further lock down ?
It also needs to be clear that the Project supports the proposal for a RfC (not to be confused with support for the move) and finally we also need, I believe, to get some indication from Arbcom that they accept the proposal. Then and only then can the RfC go ahead, anyone who thinks that all this can happen in less than 90 days is I think not looking at this objectively.Mtking (edits) 01:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Do you mean RfC or RM? In any case I agree with you that going to an RfC or an RM without first reaching a reasonable consensus on this page would only mean the proposal would be roundly defeated as it has been on every previous occasion. The current poll is only about setting an agenda for talks. Talks could lead to a poll in less than 90 days if there was sufficient good will, but I would most strongly advise against jumping the gun. Scolaire (talk) 09:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
We are in talks. The current poll is to determine whether one, two, or three articles should be proposed for renaming. It appears that the Project prefers to consider only one. 90 days is a long time from 15 January. So what do you contemplate? -- Evertype·✆ 11:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989 203.206.67.80 (talk) 12:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Nope, I give up. Why does a contributor from Australia mention a piece of Irish law which seems to have no relevant provision and besides which on a web service based in Florida? Dmcq (talk) 13:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
2.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person……. distribute written material …… are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred. 124.150.38.188 (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
While that might or might not be true (I don't know, not being familiar with Irish law). However, there are two problems with its relevancy to this discussion. Firstly, I can see nothing on this page that is likely to stir up hatred - particularly when compared to some previous discussions when accusations of all sorts were flying left right and centre. Secondly, and most importantly, Wikipedia is not subject to Irish law - the servers are based in Florida and so the governing law is that which applies in that state of the United States. Contributors here who are accessing the site from (the state of) Ireland may be subject to the cited law, depending on the wording of the act; as I am not a lawyer, let alone an Irish or Floridian lawyer, so I don't know.
Your IP address geolocates to Western Australia, so you are definitely not subject to Irish law in this regard. If you feel that someone here is posting material likely to cause hatred, then you would need to make a complaint either to your local law enforcement under terms of whatever the governing national or state legislation is in Western Australia (I haven't a clue what that might be); or alternatively you might be able to make the complaint in Florida according to Florida law (I do not know if the law there allows this or not). A third option would be to make a complaint in the jurisdiction where whomever you believe is posting this material resides, assuming the law there allows that. If this person does not make public their location, then you will be required to ask the Wikimedia Foundation for the information, however according to the m:Privacy policy this will not be released without a court order. Finally, you should be aware that Wikipedia has a very strong policy regarding legal action - Wikipedia;No legal threats - that is rigorously enforced. Thryduulf (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Ignoring this diversion, I reiterate my request to Scoláire for clarification about the difference between 90 days and 15 January. -- Evertype·✆ 00:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
This so called "diversion" is a valid point. Evertype is presenting proposals that in the main seek to ignore the fact that Ireland is a valid name for a country in Europe. This is enshrined in legislation in Ireland. Evertype is resident in Ireland, makes his contributions from Ireland. He is subject to Irish law including the "Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989" 203.59.65.69 (talk) 06:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I think you've got it a little confused. Evertype is pushing strongly for a title where Ireland is obviously the name rather than Republic of Ireland. And there is no hatred aspect of it all. One person here has expressed some personal disquiet because it used to be a bone of contention between the UK and Ireland, see Names of the Irish state#Belfast Agreement. Evertype seems to think there is some big pool of burning resentment over the issue. Personally I've never had an issue with using Republic of Ireland and it seems obvious to me to use it in circumstances where there might be some confusion. But why anyway should a person in Australia feel such feelings or even consider that there might be such feelings? By the way Republic of Ireland is the official description and Ireland is the official name of the state. Haddocks' Eyes will explain all that. Dmcq (talk) 08:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
No confusion. Ireland is the name. 58.7.190.194 (talk) 10:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The term stopped being a bone of contention only after it stopped being used as a name. A lesson to be learned, perhaps. RashersTierney (talk) 09:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Ireland is still used as the name. 58.7.190.194 (talk) 10:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Ireland is the official name. Republic of Ireland is the official description. There is no 'still' about it. It's been that way for ages. Dmcq (talk) 11:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Correct. Ireland is the name .58.7.190.194 (talk) 11:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
It stopped being a bone of contention between the politicians after Ireland gave up its territorial claim to Northern Ireland with no consideration about what people there wanted. That claim was only stuck into the constitution originally by presenting it as an all or nothing business and was a major cause of the original constitution passing with such a low majority. Dmcq (talk) 11:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Ireland is the name. All the Irish people voted for it. 58.7.190.194 (talk) 11:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the potted history lesson. Missed the point completely. RashersTierney (talk) 11:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
No problem. The point may be repeated. Ireland is the name. 58.7.190.194 (talk) 11:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I think there may be a case for semi-protecting the page again. Scolaire (talk) 11:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I think you may be right. RashersTierney (talk) 12:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Removed his last comment here and posted a warning as a first step. Dmcq (talk) 12:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
@Dmcq: you made me smile. Haddock's Eyes was the rationale I used the very first time I voted in an RM on ROI, back in mid-2008. Scolaire (talk) 11:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formal Page Move Request

Latest comment: 12 years ago39 comments21 people in discussion
Closed by Rich Farmbrough

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

{{rfc|policy|pol|hist}} Snow closed per consensus. Rich Farmbrough, 20:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC).
It's been over 2 months since the silly ban on page move requests ended, and all we have had is delaying tactics by the pro-British camp. The country is called Ireland, it has the right to be called by the correct name. So here is the page move request :

Once done no more moves for four years. IrishToTheCore (talk) 08:47, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Just on the last point, some such as the BBC still seem to have an equally quirky predilection for Irish Republic. RashersTierney (talk) 10:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Equal support with the status quo. Ireland is the official name for the state, Republic of Ireland is the official description. Together they are overwhelmingly the most common names used to refer to the state, so it should be at one of the two names - and there are good arguments for both. If the state is not at Ireland, the island should be. If the state is at Ireland, the island should be at Ireland (island). Which of the two sensible options (the status quo and this proposal) is used I have little preference over, but it should be one of them. Thryduulf (talk) 09:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)I say we close this down asap. In fact, I smell a sock. A new editor pops up, demanding a page move to a choice that doesn't even appear in the latest discussions (i.e. guaranteed to fail) and also looking for a 4 year lockdown.... That'd be one of the hardline pro-status-quo people then, and probably one of the belligerents. --HighKing (talk) 10:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Close per HighKing, and if I weren't busy right now, I'd be asking an admin to block the sock per WP:DUCK. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:08, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Rannpháirtí anaithnid, and support HighKing's proposal to close this RFC. Whatever brings this new editor to make an RFC proposal as their second edit, the partisan assumption of bad faith in the RFC itself makes it clear that there is no attempt to assist collaboration. If the RFC continues, I may add a longer rationale for my position. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Sounds to me like the ip from Australia. A bit of discussion instead of repeated insertions of assertions on the ips part would be good. Dmcq (talk) 10:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Close as unhelpful. RashersTierney (talk) 10:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Close as pure disruption. Hans Adler 12:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. You've heard it all before, but I'm going do it again. The single word "Ireland" is both the common and formal name of the Irish state, according to the Irish constitution, the United Nations, the CIA's World Factbook, the Associated Press, and Britannica. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform. The current setup subtracts from the sum total of human knowledge by leading readers to believe that the long-form name of the state is "Republic of Ireland." Kauffner (talk) 12:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
    Question Do we really have to go through another long circle in which editors select a few facts to bolster their case, whilst making misleading comments about other facts? For example, the Associated Press stylebook cited above does not simply say "use Ireland"; it says on page 125 "Ireland Acceptable in most references to the independent nation known formally as the Irish Republic. Use Irish Republic when a distinction must be made between this nation and Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom."
    The AP stylebook is demonstrably wrong, because "Irish Republic" is neither the name cited in the Constitution of Ireland nor the description provided in the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 ... but it is simply untrue to claim that the AP supports Kauffner's claim that 'the single word "Ireland" is both the common and formal name of the Irish state'.
    This debate has rumbled on for years because different sets of facts support applying different policies and guidelines on wikipedia, and if we will never reach any sort of stable consensus on this if editors simply ignore facts inconvenient to their case or (as in this instance) misrepresent references. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:54, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
    Answer AP style is that the state should normally be referred to as "Ireland", never as "Republic of Ireland". Chicago style is to follow the country names as they are given in the World Factbook. So both major English-language editing styles support just plain "Ireland" as the name of the state. Kauffner (talk) 14:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
    For avoidance of doubt, the section from the AP style guide is:

    Ireland: Acceptable in most references to the independent nation known formally as the Irish Republic. Use Irish Republic when a distinction must be made between this nation and Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom.

    This is very similar to what we have in our style guide (except that we say to use Republic of Ireland where a distinction is necessary). However, the proposal is do to disambiguation. It is not about the style guide. --RA (talk) 15:26, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
    Is it just a typo in the AP style guide, then? Meaning it should read "known formerly as the Irish Republic" rather than "known formally". BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
    +1 --RA (talk) 13:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
    Comment. Given that Republic of Ireland makes it quite clear in its very first line that Republic of Ireland is an official description of the state rather than, as he suggests 'long-form name', I am forced to the conclusion that Kauffner is unfamiliar with the articles he is voting about. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:19, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Close poll as disruptive. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:08, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support closing of poll per others requesting this. Thryduulf (talk) 15:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Close I just spotted this, and don't need time to think about a response. It is a distraction and intrusive to the ongoing discussion, please close. Sswonk (talk) 16:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Close, as it's a sock. GoodDay (talk) 18:11, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Moves as per RA and BrownHairedGirl and Snow close. Mtking (edits) 19:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support the intention of the proposition, but please close quickly as disruptive. Fmph (talk) 20:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose - for meny reasons, one of them being that the country has been called Ireland/Éire for at least a thousand years, while the 26 County state has only been calling itself Ireland/Éire for 74 years. I think you should consider changing your name to something like 26CountyishToTheCore ;-) ~Asarlaí 20:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Comment/Request

What we have here is a RM, in the midst of ongoing discussions about how this can be done right, if it needs to be done at all, by someone on their second ever edit. In other words, it's a sock. It may be as HighKing suggests, someone from the status quo camp, being disruptive; equally, it could be someone from the move camp, being adamant and disruptive. I don't know and really don't care - either way, it's disruptive. Unfortunately, I'm very busy until the middle of next week, or I'd do this myself, but seeing as we have at least three admins taking part in this particular discussion, could one of ye bring this to Arbcom (if necessary?) and/or an appropriate ANI board to have this closed down? And preferably the sock blocked? I don't see this as being controversial - we've people from both "sides" saying Close and the only supporter doesn't appear to be familiar with the debate/history. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

--Closed per consensus--

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Google searches

Clarification regarding the above: I have had no knowledge whatsoever of the item, that is until it was all over. At the time in question I was attending a play "Private Lives" by Noel Coward at the Subiaco Arts Centre, in Perth Western Australia. My seat number was actually E31. The play was gorgeous, a question of "futile morality". I would recommend it to all who can attend. So sorry I missed all the excitement above. P.S. Afterwards I went to bed. XoX 203.206.50.115 (talk) 04:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't meant you but someone writing 'Ireland is Ireland was' over and over and not discussing, but I see they are from Perth too. Are you then the person there who had trouble communicating or is that another person? If you were I am thankful you have stopped that. Why are you so interested in it all? There's another person here from Canada who also seems to have a great interest whereas I'd guess most people in Ireland don't really give a toss. Dmcq (talk) 10:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I wrote the 'Ireland is, Ireland was' statement, as I could not understand what all the argument was about. (Still can't) It appeared obvious to me that the most common name for Ireland a country in Europe is "Ireland" therefore it should be used as the title to the article. This is backed up by searches of both Google and Google news. All my analysis repeatedly gives the results that lead to: Ireland, the country in Europe, at a page titled "Ireland". Northern Ireland at a page titled "Northern Ireland". The geographic island of Ireland at a page titled "Island of Ireland" XoX 203.59.126.135 (talk) 00:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Not that I think google determines things like this but it can be an indicator okay. The first page had a majority meaning the country, after the first four pages they were about evens and after that that I found the references where the island were meant started to predominate with references to the economic crisis taking up a lot of the Ireland the country references. So I was not able to replicate your results. I think you must have been counting a lot of things like the golf and rugby or the Church of Ireland and a load of others as specific to the state. I view the early lead of the state ones a bit suspiciously too as google deliberately weighs in favour of government organizations. Dmcq (talk) 12:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Did you never wonder why Google did that? Why would you be suspicious of Google doing so? Fmph (talk) 14:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
No what I meant is that google actually say they do this so it biases the top returns a bit. The thing that did strike me though is that far fewer Northern Ireland entries are returned than I'd have expected so I think they must have a method of automatically biasing to entries with Ireland but not Northern Ireland in them somehow. It is the right thing to do but still I'm impressed. Dmcq (talk) 14:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Google results are also... "skewed" isn't the right word, but you know what I mean... depending on your past search history and whether you're logged in to a Google account or not. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:02, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Skewed is a much better word. Bias does have negative connotations. Thanks. Dmcq (talk) 15:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your consideration. I will run the Google analysis again for the search term "Ireland". Once at Google and once at Google News. I will take a full sample size of 100 entries for both, to ensure reliability of the results. I will have four sections. (A) Ireland country in Europe (B) Island of Ireland (C) Northern Ireland and (D) others. Note: for a lot of items like golf, rugby and church of Ireland I have counted as references to Island of Ireland. Are there any other queries in this regard ? I shall use the international edition of Google in both cases. XoX. 58.7.130.17 (talk) 06:19, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

You said you'd already done that, why would you repeat it? Why would you get much different from last time? Our counts differ and I guess yours would differ again if you're doing the same thing so I'd like to know why. The best thing for checking would be for a different person to see what they got. The figures are not hugely different so they can't be taken as a way of deciding anyway, Wikipedia policy has a bit somewhere saying explicitly that. As said above even taking google there are problems with the preference for government, the avoidance of Northern Ireland when Ireland is searched for and the customization and skewing generally google does. Never mind it has just been web references, should a search be done in Google books instead for instance as Wikipedia values them more and where the island easily predominates? Or in Google scholar where the first couple of pages may have referred to the country more but it is very hard to get anything out of as it was all monoclonal antibodies and suchlike? Dmcq (talk) 09:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Dmcq. Thank you for your comments. I have repeated the search and realised that there was a flaw in my analysis. The original search parameters allowed for "(A) Ireland country in Europe (B) Island of Ireland (C) Northern Ireland and (D) others" in the results. This had a flaw which only became obvious as I ran the search again and again.

It appears to me that the search parameters I should allow for are "(A) Ireland country in Europe (B) Northern Ireland (C) Joint Sporting Clubs and Institutions (D) Island of Ireland and (E) others". This is a small but very significant change in the analysis, as many of the results fit into the category "Joint Sporting Clubs and Institutions"

I agree with you similar searches can be completed in Google Books and Google Scholar. One can then see if there is a correlation in the results. XoX. 203.206.58.173 (talk) 13:53, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Personally I prefer books for measuring interest because people have to pay for them but I'm sure people can make arguments for practically anything. Dmcq (talk) 14:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
With regard to your web search, 203.206.*.*, if you have not done so already, you may consider reading Google searches and numbers.
Different search engines will find different results. This may seem obvious but consider the practical consequence of each engine. A search of Google News, for example, will inform you of how the word "Ireland" is used in news articles. For political and economic news articles, "Ireland" almost inevitably refer to the state. In sports news, "Ireland" (unqualified) will usually mean mean the "island". Thus, you should carefully decide which search engine to use depending on what question you want to find the answer to.
Similarly, a web search using Google will show you how "Ireland" is used on websites. At first glace, that may seem ideal to your purposes but think a little more it: Who creates website? What factors influence what websites exist and what words mean on those websites? For example, government agencies, commercial businesses, charitable organisations, etc. will account for a great number of website. Even business that trade across the island of Ireland, for example Dunnes Stores, will treat trade from the Republic of Ireland and from Northern Ireland differently. Not least among the reasons for this is because the two jurisdictions use different currencies, have different tax rates, etc.
I suggest the best Google-based search engine for the question you are asking is Google Books. That will tell you how "Ireland" is used in published works across a broad range of knowledge domains that are aimed at a general audience. As such, the results it will find are more comparable to Wikipedia. --RA (talk) 17:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Page size

Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

This page is over 250k at the moment, I have adjusted the archive to 5 days to help keep it down in size. Mtking (edits) 19:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe 5 minutes would calm things down? Rich Farmbrough, 20:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC).
Or 5 seconds? ;) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
I think there is something wrong with the target page (archive 29) and I've adjusted to archive at page 30. I believe that will fix the problem or get around it rather.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 14:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, that worked.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 05:47, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

"Anglo-Irish" and issues around nationality

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a discussion around use Anglo-Irish and a proposal for a MOS entry to do with nationality that contributors here may be interested in. Discussion is here: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Anglo-Irish. --RA (talk) 20:15, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I closed the straw poll

Latest comment: 12 years ago26 comments17 people in discussion

The result was that, for a move of the article from Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state), Option B, which only moved that article, prevailed over Option A, which also move the current Ireland to Ireland (island) and Ireland (disambiguation) to Ireland. -- Evertype·✆ 16:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

You should consider reverting doing so. For one thing, it is probably better that the same person who opened a poll does not close it.
In this case, it is noteworthy that many editors took it upon themselves to !vote for Option C (the status quo), even though that was not given as an option when setting up the poll. Some of those who left comments made pointed remarks that this option was not given as part of the poll itself.
The actual tally of !votes were thus:
These tallies exclude Scolarie's proxy !votes. Those include me apparently !voting for Option B. In reality, I would have !voted for Option C along with the plurality of !voters. --RA (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
My understanding is (that is, after repeated requests for clarification were finally to some extent answered, my understanding became...) that this straw poll was preparatory to a move request for the favoured option. So there will be a further poll either on 15 January or in 90 days time in which the status quo will be the default option, as is the case in all move requests. If I have worked out what people were trying to do correctly, that would mean that Option C was redundant in the straw poll.
Also, I didn't vote in the straw poll because my support for Option B was already listed by Scoláire. If necessary, ye can take this a confirmation that I'm for Option B. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 19:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Same here. If I wasn't in agreement I'd have said so. RashersTierney (talk) 20:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
That it was never made exactly clear what was being asked (and even the partial clarifications were after some !votes were cast), and at least two different interpretations of what the proxy votes implied, I don't think this result is a reliable reflection of anything. Thryduulf (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) That's fair enough and is a sensible approach. It wasn't clear to me that that was the purpose of the poll. --RA (talk) 20:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
It wasn't clear to a lot of people, and there seemed to be some sort of unclear objection to actually clarifying it, or at least I was left with the impression that requests for clarification were being considered unhelpful and weren't getting very clear answers. I very much hope and recommend that whatever the next step is, the purpose and procedure will be clear and anybody who feels in need of clarification will get a quick and forthright response. Presumably if it's a straghtforward move request, that shouldn't be so much of a problem. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 22:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The "so called" results for the badly designed, limited option "straw poll" were inconclusive and potentially misleading. The "Straw Poll" excluded the option of: Ireland, the country in Europe, at a page titled "Ireland". The geographic island of Ireland at a page titled "Island of Ireland". XoX. 58.7.130.17 (talk) 06:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

58.7.*.*, the reason "Ireland is a country in Europe" always sounds right is because the words "Ireland" and "country" are equivocal. There are two "Irelands" and both are "countries" (and both are in Europe). Take these examples:
  • Which European country was beaten by Wales in the 2011 Rugby World Cup? Ireland.
  • Which European country is in receipt of an EU/IMF bailout since November 2010? Ireland.
The article that Wikipedia has at Ireland is about the broad concept of Ireland. It informs people about both the country that is in receipt of an EU/IMF bailout and about the country that was beaten Wales in the Rugby World Cup. The article at Republic of Ireland, in contrast, only informs people about the country that is in receipt of a bailout (but does so in more detail). --RA (talk) 09:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
That's an excellent example highlighting the confusion surrounding this issue - when to use each term, why using the term "country" can be unclear and potentially confusing (and potentially incorrect), and when you should use a "dab" term (like "Republic of Ireland") to add clarity within articles. But it also conflates the issue of the article title with dabbing... --HighKing (talk) 12:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
(reply to HighKing) - I don't quite see your point. Article title choice is one of the main issues to be dealt with in the context of disambiguation - it's the first one listed at WP:DAB. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:00, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
The article on the state is different, and I would say an exceptional case. This has all been covered before, so anyone who doesn't like old ground (re)covered, stop reading now.
The first question we encounter is Primary Topic. Is the primary topic the island or the state? The consensus is that the primary topic is the island. (Be aware that this is also a politically loaded question.)
The next issue is "Naming articles in such a way that each has a unique title". See WP:TITLE. Given the history of the term "Republic of Ireland", and especially noting usage, there is an argument that usage as a dab term within text - as a way of differentiating between the island and the state, or the state and Northern Ireland - is acceptable. But there's equally an argument that usage of "Republic of Ireland" as a Name or Title fails NPOV.
Therefore looking at the five principals, the question we're trying to find an answer t - is it possible to find a different title for the article on the state which doesn't raise the same objections as the current one?
Also, looking at WP:PRECISE shows that the preference is for "Natural Disambiguation" - but the argument is that "Republic of Ireland" is not NPOV, so is there another title? If not, the policy recommends "Parenthetical disambiguation" - which is why, I believe, most people have opted for the minimal changes under the poll, and selected "Ireland (state)" as the best alternative that meets policy.
Hope that helps. --HighKing (talk) 18:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, that all makes sense to me. I still don't agree with it, but I understand your point of view better, I think. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Cool. That's what it's about - understanding each others points of view and trying to find a way forward. --HighKing (talk) 14:27, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies and analysis. I wish to complete further analysis, as indicated above, before replying. XoX. 203.206.58.173 (talk) 13:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I've added a comment above regarding Google searches. Regards, --RA (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

the vote in question and the closing "result" are deeply flawed. This is a very important issue and there should be no room for anyone being misled or confused by what is getting proposed considering the implications of a change would end up be binding for a number of years. Despite the intention of the poll, it is clear that at present a majority support the status quo and not a move to a different title. why can people not just accept the case has yet to be made and people are not convinced. The present article titles and layout are clearly the best option. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It would be appropriate to observe that 11 people voted for change and 8 people voted for no-change. --Red King (talk) 17:05, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Since it wasn't about whether to change I think that would be inappropriate. Dmcq (talk)
(ec) No, that would not be appropriate. It would be an attempt to game the system, and as such so obviously futile that it can only be described as pure disruption. This section is about the straw poll at WT:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Straw poll. (Just for clarity, as it appears you are referring to something else.)
The straw poll was about the choice between two options for change, under the assumption that something will change. Even so, a lot of voters found it appropriate to say explicitly that they prefer the status quo. There were 17 contributions to the straw poll that can be considered votes. One of them said A, B, C are all acceptable and so should not be counted for simplicity. That leaves us with 16 contributions:
  • 6 editors voted for A, voted for B, or voted for A or B. (RashersTierney, Scolaire, HighKing, Sswonk, Daicaregos, MTC).
  • 10 editors voted for C, voted for A or B while making it clear that they still preferred C, or registered protest that C was not officially offered as a choice. (Mr Stephen, ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, Mtking, Fmph, Bastun, Hans Adler, Thryduulf, Mabuska, BritishWatcher, Eluchil404.)
The status quo winning 10:6 in a straw poll in which it was officially not even an option is a remarkably clear result. It is fully consistent with the outcome of the previous straw poll started 20 September 2011 and archived at WT:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Archive 27#Poll to see if people want to retain the status quo. In that straw poll, 24 editors supported retaining the status quo, while 10 opposed retaining it. (And of course it is also consistent with the outcome of the big RfC 2 years ago.)
Taken in conjunction with the other previous straw poll that is archived at WT:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Archive 27#Poll on extending ArbCom resolution for two years, and which found 28:22 against immediately freezing the status quo for 2 years, we see that a clear majority of editors support the status quo, but enough of them were interested (2 months ago) in keeping the dialogue alive anyway. This suggests that enough editors are open to dialogue so that concentration on a single alternative to the status quo and a demonstration that it has strong support might cause a little landslide.
All indicators that I have seen point to option B (moving Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) and keeping everything else the same) being the most popular alternative arrangement both among supporters and among opponents of the status quo. A binding RfC with only options C (status quo) and B is therefore the most promising path towards getting the status quo replaced by something that will hopefully cause less disruption.
Any and all attempts to claim at this point that the majority is against the status quo are counterfactual, disruptive, and make it more likely that the status quo will simply be frozen again. Hans Adler 17:44, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I would agree with Hans Adler's analysis, there is no consensus to do anything other than to continue discussing options. I think we need to work to agree a roadmap of how we go from here to a proposal for a RfC on a move. Mtking (edits) 06:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
To clarify, I disavow anyone trying to summarise my actions or read into the 'why' I voted a particular way. I voted for a non-existant Option C. That does not mean I support the status quo. Nor does it mean that I support a choice between status quo and Option B. In fact I don't. I oppose Option B entirely. I don't accept that it has much support. And if it hasnt much support, I don't see the point in having it as the only alternative to the status quo in some future poll. In fact its pointless. Fmph (talk) 06:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

TBH, having these discussions, proposals etc etc at this WikiProject, is too confusing. We should been allowed to have regular RMs at the 3 articles-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Nothing confusing about it in the least. But then, seeing as you've proposed that we call Michael Collins and Gerry Adams "British", you may indeed be prone to becoming easily confused. In any case, if you've a problem with it, take it up with Arbcom. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:42, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
What does Collins & Adams (who are British), got to do with these proposed page movements? GoodDay (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
This was discussed for two months. Concensus was to allow discussion and not to move anything. GoodDay is talking now like he has not come across this problem before. What Hans Adler said just above. You already have the concensus. Hanging around until no one can bare to read the crap and then making out you are now the only ones here is a blatant undermining tactic. Can't keep having straw polls one after the other. That's why discussion was banned and I want to watch again so when I see the next one I can rerequest the ban. Every time I think of this page I get flashbacks of the EU referendum. I think I have to take you all to court for mental anguish. ~ R.T.G 16:34, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I support a move to "Ireland (state)". 86.42.24.212 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC).

Case for consideration.

Latest comment: 12 years ago18 comments12 people in discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The case was considered and found to be lacking in several fundamental respects. With no evidence of the proposer recognising the shortcomings despite several explanations further discussion is unlikely to be helpful. Further unproductive behaviour may lead to the page being semi-protected. Thryduulf (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Please consider the following. Question: What is the most common usage of the term "Ireland" ? Analysis - Term Search - Ireland : Thursday 1st December 2011 - Google News - Results: (A) Ireland country in Europe: 52 returns. (B) Northern Ireland: 19 returns. (C) Joint Sporting Clubs and Institutions: 20 returns. (D) Island of Ireland: 4 returns (E) Others: 5 returns. Total 100 returns. - Google - Results: (A) Ireland country in Europe: 61 returns. (B) Northern Ireland: 1 return. (C) Joint Sporting Clubs and Institutions: 30 returns. (D) Island of Ireland: 7 returns (E) Others: 1 return. Total 100 returns. Based on the above I wish to make a case for the following page titles. Ireland country in Europe at "Ireland", Northern Ireland at "Northern Ireland". Both of these to include the same paragraph or info box's on "Joint Sporting Clubs and Institutions". The geographic island of Ireland at "Island of Ireland". Thank you. XoX 203.206.2.243 (talk) 09:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Most common outside Europe would be in conjunction to going on a trip to Europe to see the island and its sights. Mtking (edits) 09:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply - Global basis: Thank you for your comment. My analysis was on a global basis and is valid as such. XoX. 124.169.248.179 (talk) 07:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
That result for google of the web totally contradicts what I found. I did not try google news and I notice you didn't bother with books which are what is mainly counted for reliable sources here. I get the feeling you must be thinking that in things like 'Britain and Ireland' it means the UK and the republic instead rather than the areas. And I simply do not see how you got such a low figure for the web search - are you counting things like http://www.lonelyplanet.com/ireland as referring to the state instead of the whole island? And as other people have said google only really counts for showing if there is a great disparity, it doesn't drive Wikipedia. What has been agreed here in the past by consensus is that the Island is important enough and it emcompasses both states and besides the state has a ready made official disambiguation. And can I reiterate to you what others here have said that 'country' when applied to Ireland is deeply ambiguous without context. I believe you meant the state but the figures you have indicate you may have mixed the two up very badly. Dmcq (talk) 14:23, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply - Contradictory analysis: Thank you for your comment. You state that your analysis contradicts my findings. May we know the details of your analysis please ? XoX. 58.7.173.234 (talk) 07:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Dmcq's comments. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
On St Patricks Day 2011, Ireland went from 23,200 views the day before to 41,800 compared to Republic of Ireland going from 8,300 to 12,900. Last month Ireland had 267521 views, compared to Republic of Irelands 133116. The island is the primary topic on wikipedia. The fact political matters prop up more on the Google news site rather than sporting matters is absolutely irrelevant. If you would have done ur search an hour after an Ireland football match the result may have been very different. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:37, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply - Circular confirmation: Thank you for your comment. My analysis was based on the term "Ireland" as in common usage. To justify common usage on Wikipedia by what is used on Wikipedia, is not analysis but circular confirmation. "It is what Wikipedia says it is, because Wikipedia said it was." XoX. 203.206.70.224 (talk) 07:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Of course "Ireland-the-state" will return the most results for a search of news articles. Politics and economics form the basis of news stories. Of course, "Ireland-the-state" will return the most results for a search of websites. Government departments, businesses, etc. that are dependent on functions of state (e.g. currencies, taxes, laws, etc.) form the bulk of websites that are created.
This is a general encyclopedia. For a comparable search of what "Ireland" means in the context of general knowledge, use an engine like Google Books. Otherwise, the results will be skewed by factors that are not reverent to us. --RA (talk) 09:18, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply: The analysis included "Ireland country in Europe" as are the following; Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, et al. XoX. 124.169.98.155 (talk) 12:56, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
People can do their own analysis as I said before. It isn't difficult but you do quite often need to look at the pages. I see no point in elevating the status of this discussion by quoting figures when XoX's sticks 'country' down as a classification and when as has been repeatedly said exact figures are not important for Wikipedia. How about looking at the http://www.lonelyplanet.com/ireland one like I asked then say if you think that is Ireland the state or Ireland the island and not just Ireland the country. There is no point in counting numbers if the classification is completely wrong. I don't even see where the news ones come from though I think they are irrelevant, I got 16 Northern Ireland in the first 40 I looked at whereas XoX had 19 in 100. Some of the entries need a little thinking but I can't see how a person could count the Northern Ireland ones quite so differently. The figures of either just don't match up at all. And as Rannpháirtí anaithnid says the search that is closest to what is actually important for an encyclopaedia rather than what Enda Kenny says today and hopes will be forgotten tomorrow is the books search. Dmcq (talk) 09:41, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply: If you have some alternative analysis that will provide the answer to the question: What is the most common usage of the term "Ireland" ? Please let us know the details of same. XoX. 124.169.98.155 (talk) 12:56, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I think this ip is a troll as evidenced by the original 'Ireland is Ireland was' business, the lack of any relation between the figures they say they counted and what is evident, the way they do this 'Reply' when directly asked not to, the way the haven't addressed the 'country' problem outlined above and they have in general ignored the clear answer to the question they pose but go and do something people have told them is unrepresengtative. Dmcq (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Clarification request: Thank you for your comment. You appear to disagree with my analysis and answer to the question: "What is the most common usage of the term "Ireland" ?" Please clarify your analysis and answer in regard to that specific question. XoX. 124.169.98.155 (talk) 02:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
This is not going any ware. Time to close it down ?Mtking (edits) 21:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply: May this discussion remain open until completed. XoX. 124.169.98.155 (talk) 03:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Reply: It's completed. Thank you for your question :D 86.41.32.215 (talk) 19:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Troublesome peoples

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello, there is a category called Category:People of The Troubles (Northern Ireland). I don't want it to say "of the troubles", even if the end result is a similar effect. Also, if the INLA and the IRA don't fit into the "Paramilitaries from Northern Ireland" category in there, then it's the category should change to accomodate it, not given separate spots instead. And perhas one or two other little things but no harm in fixing things. Any thoughts on this category? It's not very complicated and there's unlikely to be much of a row about interfering with it. ~ R.T.G 15:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Ireland and the China precedent

Latest comment: 12 years ago22 comments12 people in discussion
Moved from Talk:Ireland#Ireland and the China precedent

It seems there are several designated areas to squabble about the names of Ireland, but it's fairly difficult to tell where a newcomer to the discussion should go, especially when his comment isn't on a specific proposal (that he could easily find). Anyway, hasn't the September 2011 move of People's Republic of China to China created a precedent that should see Republic of Ireland moved here? If anything, China is a weaker case, with two sovereign states in somewhat of a dispute over a common name. It's not like anyone wants the entire UK to be called Ireland--just one of the four nations. If not, why not just create a "South Africa" page that describes the geographic area that encompasses the Republic of South Africa plus Lesotho? So my modest proposal: Republic of Ireland ---> Ireland; Ireland ---> Ireland (island). Regardless of your political beliefs, I think there's a lot to be said for internal consistency within Wikipedia. --BDD (talk) 20:17, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I strongly agree with this per WP:COMMONNAME. Internal consistency is important, and I agree that China is even a weaker case. -- 141.161.127.75 (talk) 20:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Also agree per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Mattworld (talk to me) 20:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Citing common name is not of much of a help so long as both "Irelands" are commonly called Ireland. This is a question of disambiguation, not of common name, and the appropriate guideline is to do with treatment of broad concepts. In this case, Ireland (the topic of this article) is the broad concept. This is evidenced by reliable sources, which treat the island/country - its geography, history, people and culture - as the broad concept of Ireland. It is also evidenced by our our own internal treatment of the topic (for example History of Ireland, Geography of Ireland, Culture of Ireland, Music of Ireland, etc.).
As a rule of thumb, may I suggest that when guide books to Ireland are about the Republic of Ireland, to the exclusion of Northern Ireland, in the same way as guide books to China are about the People's Republic of China, to the exclusion of Taiwan, then there may be a precedent. --RA (talk) 20:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Outside of the UK and Ireland, how many people refer to Northern Ireland simply as "Ireland"? Probably fewer than those who say "China" for Republic of China. And I assure you I didn't say "UK and Ireland" just now to prove my point--it's simply how I would always refer to those two states. There, there's ample reason to be cautious assigning "Ireland" to just one entity due to political sensitivities, but there's no reason for Wikipedia to have to play that game. Am I being too US-centric? I would suspect the vast majority of people here equate "Ireland" with the Republic, for what that's worth.--BDD (talk) 21:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Every US-centric person I asked equates the word "Ireland" with the entire island. If then asked about the two countries that inhabit the island they tell me one is "Northern Ireland" and the other is... well, they're all over the place in what they call the sovereign state in the south. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:56, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
?? - who, anywhere in the world, refers to Northern Ireland simply as Ireland? The two "Irelands" are the topic of this article and a state of the same name.
As I wrote above, the reason why the topic of this article is located here is because it forms the broad concept. The topic of this article covers the history, culture, geography, people and so forth of Ireland, including it's politics. In this article, readers are introduced to that broad concept and from here they can learn more about different parts of the topic, including about the Republic of Ireland.
It has nothing to do with "political sensitivities". It is simply that this is a general encyclopedia. --RA (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Guide books often treat the whole island rather than the parts. The tourist boards cooperate well to sell the whole island and share with each other - though of course they also compete on specific! Dmcq (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Please note the ArbCom banner at the top of this page. RashersTierney (talk) 20:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
That's, um... maybe helpful? Where specifically would this comment go? A new page? The one poll I see hasn't been updated since 2009. Perhaps this is by design, but finding the appropriate outlet for this discussion is difficult, and the talk page of one of the relevant articles seems logical. --BDD (talk) 21:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. The issue of moving the pages was discussed in depth following the expiration of the two-year moratorium on discussion. (I've moved it here now.) --RA (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose any page move and i also strongly oppose reopening a debate when there is clearly no need. If yet another page move debate is needed, after it is concluded we should go back to arbcom requesting an additional 2 year ban on page moves to avoid these needless changes. As for the China example, it is one example and not a precedent considering there are other methods used at Taiwan and Georgia. This current setup was agreed after a large poll conducted of the community, the change at China was nothing to do with the majority view or arguments made. A small number of superior people made the choice with no real accountability. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Don't forget Greece or should that be the Hellenic Republic? Mabuska (talk) 00:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
"Greece" isn't called "Hellenic Republic" in Chicago, AP, or any other major editing style. See the "Greece". The World Factbook (2024 ed.). Central Intelligence Agency., the Greek Foreign Ministry, or the United Nations. What's more official than a country's U.N. member name? Kauffner (talk) 03:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
What's more official than a country's U.N. member name? The county's own official name? In any case, we don't use official names when naming articles.
In the case of Ireland, there are two things called Ireland so, owing to limitations of the Wikimedia software, disambiguation of some sort is needed. As Ireland is the broad concept, Republic of Ireland needs to be disambiguated in some way or another. --RA (talk) 00:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
We shouldn't call the country "Greece" because that's the official name? I'll have to remember this argument. Kauffner (talk) 04:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: So precisely my preference is:
Ireland → Ireland (island) or Ireland (islands),
Ireland (disambiguation) → Ireland, and
(Optional) Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country), Ireland (state) or Ireland (sovereign state).
218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Comment The fundamental difference between China and Ireland is that people regularly use the term Ireland to refer to the whole island, e.g. when talking about Rugby or Cricket. While with the term "China" people do include (or exclude) Hong Kong and Macau, which are governed by Beijing, the term People's Republic of China suffers the same ambiguity, so there isn't really a good alternative that is also clear - whereas Republic of Ireland always excludes Northern Ireland.
That said we do usually, with a very small number of exceptions, use the common name for countries - and the Republic of Ireland's common name is definitely Ireland. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:40, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
When there's a need to further disambiguate, terms like "Mainland China" or "Chinese mainland" are used in place of "People's Republic of China" when the two territories are excluded, in a similar manner like Metropolitan France, Lower 48, European Netherlands or Mainland Portugal. But then most often it's taken for granted that "PRC" does not cover the two territories, just like UK doesn't cover the crown dependencies and overseas territories. Hong Kong or Macau products wouldn't be marked "Made in China" or "Made in the PRC" on their packings. And Hong Kong and Macau aren't included in the statistics for the PRC unless otherwise stated. In comparison, the term "China" may cover Taiwan and the rest of the ROC, particularly when it's used in cultural, historical or linguistics matters. But anyhow all these are not quite relevant to the debate here around Ireland.
I put forward an optional Part 3 in my proposal because it's a lot easier to understand. Few people outside the British Isles actually know about the official description "Republic of Ireland". 218.250.159.25 (talk) 18:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Thats why the article states that it is in the opening line of it. Anyways i think bracketed disambiguation article names such as "Ireland (island)" and "Ireland (country)" etc. etc. should be avoided as who is going to type into the URL bar or whatever Ireland with bracketed suffix unless they already know about iy? Mabuska (talk) 00:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes. But since "Republic of Ireland" isn't the name of the country, few people actually knows this official description, and readers from wikilinks don't actually type in the URL bar, Ireland (country) (or Ireland (state) or Ireland (sovereign state)) is a good alternative. [[Ireland (country)|]] is also short to type than [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] for the purpose of editing. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 19:00, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

World Press Is Incorrect.

Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

This week. According to the world press: Xi Jinping, of China, leaves the USA, visits Ireland and then Turkey. According to Wikipedia: Xi Jinping, of China, leaves the USA, visits the Republic of Ireland and then Turkey. Wikipedia is correct, the entire world press is incorrect. XOX 58.7.156.46 (talk) 08:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

No Wikipedia is wrong. He visits Ireland not the island of Ireland. Political leaders visit countries so there is no ambiguity. Dmcq (talk) 09:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

ROI renaming proposal

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

We working on one here. Kauffner (talk) 05:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Should IRA members be referred to as volunteers?

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a discussion at WT:WikiProject Ireland#Should IRA members be referred to as volunteers? on this. Sorry should have been put here really but it is there instead. Dmcq (talk) 09:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Resolved by motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment that:

Remedy 5 (Standard discretionary sanctions) of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles is amended as follows:

The words "and British baronets" are stricken from this remedy. The Committee reserves the right to restore sanctions to this area by motion, should a pattern of editing problems re-emerge. Existing sanctions which were placed prior to this amendment remain in effect (and unmodified) until they expire or are lifted via the normal appeals process.

For the Arbitration Committee, --Guerillero | My Talk 20:02, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Discuss this
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