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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Archive 34

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by Nicknack009 in topic Republic of Ireland article name
Archive 30←Archive 32Archive 33Archive 34

WP:RfD discussion for Ireland (state)

Latest comment: 8 years ago12 comments7 people in discussion
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was no consensus on any action at this time after being open for more than a month. Despite concerns of ambiguity, others have pointed out that the Republic of Ireland is the primary topic for this redirect. -- Tavix (talk) 23:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

More than one state named Ireland. SSTflyer 08:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Admin note: I have moved this here from Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 June 30, because of the outstanding arb com ruling at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Ireland article names#Request to amend prior case: Ireland article names. All discussion must take place on this page. Pinging SSTflyer so that you're aware of this move of the discussion. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Discussion here?

Latest comment: 8 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration:Per - "Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration by order of the Arbitration Committee" it would appear one has to take the issue of the misnaming on Wiki of the State called Ireland here? Am I right? (I'm hate to break any rules imposed by the non-Irish majority) Sarah777 (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I may have deleted this in error, I thought it was some spam I inadvertently pasted here:

Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration by order of the Arbitration Committee.

− Archives

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− 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

− 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19'

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− Threads older than 1 month may be archived by MiszaBot I.'

If this is important please put it back. Sarah777 (talk) 19:46, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

1. Can you not undo your own edit?
2. Can you please WP:AGF? Whether or not there is or isn't an Irish majority is a) unproven, and b) irrelevant. You're also wrong to state that Ireland may be one of the only countries on enWiki that is saddled with a description rather than its actual sovereign name - it's actually pretty common for state articles. But then that's been pointed to you before in previous debates. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:59, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Certainly not irrelevant; and as I've pointed out it is fairly well proven. Sarah777 (talk) 21:01, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Always playing the hard done victim who refuses to accept they are solely at fault for their own predicament. Anyways why is this posted here and not on the actual talk page of this collaboration? Mabuska (talk) 10:23, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Are you allowed, as in not prohibited, Sarah777 to be involved in such a discussion never mind instigate one on a topic that you have frequently ended up in trouble over in the past? Seems like a pointless restart of an argument that always ends the same, and on that per the many valid reasons given a great multitude of times by many others before I oppose changing the current manual of style in regards to this issue. Mabuska (talk) 10:58, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure a personal attack is the best response to this. Scolaire (talk) 11:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
Correction: I didn't instigate it, I responded to another poster who asked why the article was called ROI. Am I allowed talk about it? - not sure - but you are correct that the decision (for the reason I've repeatedly stated) always ends with the same way. So I am not proposing any name change, new vote or even discussion of this. I withdraw. Sarah777 (talk) 12:33, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I've moved this here from the project page. I'm not altogether sure what any of it means, but I see that Bastun closed a discussion at Talk:Republic of Ireland because it suggested renaming the article, which ArbCom ruled in 2009 can only be discussed on this page. There is a note to that effect at the top of the Talk:Ireland page but not at the top of this one. As far as I can see, the note was never on this page, and therefore was never removed. There are three move proposals at Archive 33 (Jan 2014 – Jun 2015). All of them were heavily defeated (and got little or no support from "Irish" users). Scolaire (talk) 11:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Draft:Ireland

Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

As a consequence of the discussion at Talk:Republic of Ireland, a user has decided to write a new article, Draft:Ireland, as "a broad concept index about the Ireland [sic] and the countries on it." I think this is a recipe for trouble. I've opened a discussion at Draft talk:Ireland. Contributions welcome. Scolaire (talk) 11:47, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

It's certainly a recipe for trouble for me! I've made my point (again), I'll be leaving it at that. Sarah777 (talk) 12:39, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

The page has been speedy deleted at the request of the author. No need for further discussion. Scolaire (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Proposed move (discussion copied from Talk:Flag of Ireland)

Latest comment: 6 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

I propose, as has been proposed before, that this page be moved to something along the lines of "Flag of the Republic of Ireland", as it refers to the political entity and not the geographical island. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 09:02, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose. As has been pointed out before, the article is about the flag of the political entity, as geographical islands don't have flags. You might want to back up your RM with policy, as nothing has changed since the last time since this was debated? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:20, 29 January 2018 (UTC) (Edited to add formal "oppose" vote seeing as it's now a formal RM. I'll also add that the name of the article fully complies with WP:IMOS, a policy that the proposer might wish to familiarise themselves with... ) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:31, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Geographical areas can have flags, and there have been many Ireland (the island) flags proposed. I know this article is about the political entity (the republic of Ireland), and thus should be moved to a title that reflects that it is the flag of the republic. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 01:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Also, per the note on the top of the talk page, I'll move this discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 01:14, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Er... yeah, I'll leave a note on that talk page that there's an active RM on here, then, shall I? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:31, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Exhaustively discussed already. The name of the country is Ireland, there is no such country as "The Republic of Ireland" - and this is accepted by all other countries, including the UK. RoI is used as a differentiator when it is needed, such as in Wikipedia article titles distinguishing the island and the country, but has no greater import. Flags are creations of human organisations, including countries, not of landmasses, so there is no flag of the island (and for the various flags sometimes used for cross-border bodies, there is a long-established article). There is so much real work to do, can we come back to this when every article is at least B-class, maybe... SeoR (talk) 06:59, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose There's so many things wrong with what the proposer says. It is not the flag of a geographical area, it is the flag of Ireland the political entity. The name of the state is Ireland even though the article about it is under Republic of Ireland in Wikipedia. That is a fairly common way it is referred to and is officially sanctioned as a description of the state but it is not the name of the state. Please read the first sentence of the article Republic of Ireland. Two articles cannot have the same title in Wikipedia and Ireland is the article about the island of Ireland rather than the state of Ireland. Really there is nothing more to it in Wikipedia terms from WP:NAME than is this the most common way to refer to what is being talked about? To which the answer is yes. And is there a similarly or more common thing that is also referred to by the name? To which the answer is no. On both counts 'Flag of Ireland' is the correct title for the article. Dmcq (talk) 10:38, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please can you help fix a category navigation problem?

I have devised a way of making it easier to navigate between Irish by-county categories: Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/CatNavProposal

However, before rolling it out across ~2,500 category pages, I need to know:

  1. Is there a consensus to do this?
  2. Which options do you prefer?
  3. What about Northern Ireland?

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/CatNavProposal for an explanation of the problem and my proposed solution, and please leave your feedback at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland/CatNavProposal.

Input from IECOLL members would be particularly valuable wrt to the possibility of including links to counties of both Northern Ireland and the Republic. I think it will take about twenty minutes to assess the proposal. Thanks. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:54, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


Category:16th-century British medical doctors has been nominated for discussion

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
 

Category:16th-century British medical doctors, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion. Note that the discussion relates to the geographical, political and chronological scope of the term "British", which is why Ireland falls into its scope. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:16, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Suggested move "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland".

Latest comment: 6 years ago11 comments11 people in discussion
The result of the discussion was: not moved. Scolaire (talk) 11:54, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As per WP:COMMONNAME move the current Republic of Ireland article to simply Ireland (both the WP:OFFICIALNAME, and the Common Name), and move Ireland to Geography of Ireland (the same as with happened with Republic of China -> Taiwan and Taiwan -> Geography of Taiwan ), Wikipedia should remain consistent, and the name "Ireland" is more commonly used, meanwhile the "Republic of Ireland" is a fantasy name with barely an official status, let alone a common name.

Donald Trung (talk) 07:14, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose. "Republic of Ireland" is an official, natural, recognizable and common disambiguator used to distinguish the state from the island, as can be shown by simple searches using any engine or library. DrKay (talk) 08:30, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. For the reasons noted by DrKay and Bastun. And the discussions which precipitated the WP:IRE-IRL consensus guideline in the first place. And my own contributions to those discussions over the last decade. And principally as "Ireland" (in reference to the state) doesn't meet WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Guliolopez (talk) 09:36, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Nothing has changed in IMOS consensus to warrant a change here. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:49, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose The OP claims 'Ireland' on its own most often refers to the state. I think they have not checked properly and his could well be a fantasy statistic. If they checked things properly they would not say that '"Republic of Ireland" is a fantasy name with barely an official status, let alone a common name'. Dmcq (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per multiple previous discussions. Mr Stephen (talk) 21:15, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose In the absence of any explanation of what has changed since, or why the outcome should be different from, previous discussions. William Avery (talk) 11:51, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support Why isn't the island article called "Ireland (island)" and the country "Ireland". Everyone calls the ROI just Ireland. That is fact. Furthermore WP:COMMONNAME does state the most common name should be used in article titles. IWI (chat) 13:08, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Close This isn't a formal move request, it's a discussion that began fifteen months ago and isn't going to bring about change. All having it open achieves is confusion. Timrollpickering 20:15, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move "Republic of Ireland" to "(Republic of) Ireland" – new discussion

Latest comment: 6 years ago33 comments11 people in discussion
Closing early because the discussion has strayed off topic. The result was not moved. Scolaire (talk) 08:52, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

  • Support It is factually correct in reference to the Irish constitution the name for the country is Ireland/Éire. I would like to make an alternative suggestion Ireland (Republic of) I feel this possible solution adds clarity, reduces possible offence and captures a common usage term likely derived from the FIFA 1953 name change decree changing the soccer team name. What has changed in the wider political context is Brexit. I am struggling to get any feedback on my suggestion and hope sincerely to get some here.[[User:Eimhin de Róiste (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2018 (UTC)|talk]] thanks Dmcq I'm finally in the right place to talk. —Preceding undated comment added 17:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
It would probably be best to start a new discussion for a new option and also if a discussion is a couple of months old without contributions. Also when contributing please sign by typing ~~~~ (four tildas) at the end. Your contributions have been automitically signed by a robot but it's better to do it explicitly as that can go wrong. Dmcq (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state Brexit I feel has changed things radically. I feel inaccurate country name usage (as demonstrated by the link above) causes unnecessary concern/worry to people from the Unionist or Loyalist background. People in Northern Ireland may have to vote on this issue soon. In the context of Brexit nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the Irish border (between Ireland and Northern Ireland) is the key sticking point. I feel it could help resolve the issue and improve the prospects of a better Brexit if this subject were resolved and people could find technically/legally correct information that is less objectionable to people from a Unionist tradition avoiding the inaccurate usage of Republic and rubbing that term in their faces. I also suggested as an alternative Ireland (Republic of) possibly the best compromise of all as it does take in a common usage and would also be found by similar web searches. I look forward to your experienced input and hope I have finally posted this in the correct place. Eimhin de Róiste (talk) 02:02, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

  • Support The name of the country is Ireland. As mentioned by Dmcq above, the Irish Constitution clearly names the country in the English language as Ireland not the Republic of Ireland. Does anyone imagine that an article on France would refer to the Republic of France or one on the United States of America as the Republic of the United States of America? Of course not. If the article wishes to designate the form of government as a republic then the second paragraph should read, Politically, Ireland is divided between Ireland (a republic) etc. Please, when can we have this fixed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrodesIII (talk • contribs) 03:03, 2 September 2018 (UTC) OrodesIII (talk) 03:10, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
France's official name is the French Republic. It is the fifth with that name. Plus 'Republic of Ireland' is officially sanctioned by the constitution as a description of the state. I am not exactly certain how referring to the state as Ireland rather than the Republic or the South would be less objectionable to Unionists, but those sort of concerns aren't really relevant to Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 12:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose as has been discussed many times, the island of Ireland is clearly the primary subject and should remain at Ireland. Is Republic of Ireland the best article name? Maybe not, but it's better than the alternatives such as Ireland (state), Ireland (Republic) etc. At least it's called Republic of Ireland at times and in official capacities and it's not a made up name. The island of Ireland was around much longer than the state, and will remain after the state disappears at some point in the future (like all states). Canterbury Tail talk 10:43, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Republic of Ireland" is an official, natural, recognizable and common disambiguator used to distinguish the state from the island, as can be shown by simple searches using any engine or library. The support arguments are not based on either wikipedia policy or fact. The "Republic of France" or the "Republic of the United States of America" are not official descriptions of those states, and nor does anyone complain that those articles (France and United States) are not at their country's official names, but instead at a common, natural, recognizable one. DrKay (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
    @DrKay: you might want to change that date and time stamp :-) [It said 08:30, 29 May 2017] Scolaire (talk) 18:33, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
    Ta. DrKay (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm not sure how the article name could cause concern or worry for loyalists or unionists. Brexit makes no difference to what Ireland is called. It's not absolutely my favourite name for the country but for now it is the best alternative, especially since Ireland is currently the name of the island as well it seems best to keep it as is. ☕ Antiqueight chatter 18:05, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose reasonable disambiguator, long-standing consensus, Brexit argument doesn't appear to hold water. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:14, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Really, you would have to go back and read through all of Archives 1 through 21 to understand how thoroughly the article title has been discussed and how many alternatives have been proposed and rejected. Unfortunately, there is no way to search for the bracketed "(Republic of) Ireland" – it just returns all results for "Republic of Ireland" – but here is a 2009 poll that rejected two other bracketed "Republic" options. The current title is consistent with WP:COMMONNAME, and the proposed alternative is not. Also, Ulster unionists do not like the state to be called "Ireland", preferring "the Republic of Ireland" and, even if they did consider the word "Republic" to be "rubbing that term in their faces", putting brackets around it wouldn't change anything. Scolaire (talk) 18:28, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - "Republic of Ireland" works well as a disambiguator. It is not necessary for an article on a state to reside at the official name of the state - in fact, I daresay it's a rarity for that to occur. Certainly judging by these examples: France, United Kingdom, United States, Russia, Italy, Austria, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, India, Pakistan, Vietnam, Australia, South Africa, Thailand. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As before. And the time before that. And the decade before that. "Republic of Ireland" represents natural language disambiguation and is descriptor with official recognition. The proposed title is neither. The current WP:IRE-IRL guidelines (including piping where appropriate) solves any residual issues far more naturally than the suggested "bracketed" ("stroke country") change. Brexit will have impacts in and for Ireland. Undoubtedly. But I fail to see how however how it will impact the name or description of the state. And, in the (infinitesimally unlikely) event that Brexit does impact the name, description or understanding of the scope of the state or the island, then we can address it at that point. Otherwise "'coz Brexit" seems a ludicrously weak argument for upending agreed convention and natural language. Guliolopez (talk) 19:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Hello, and many thanks for all your input already, the French example is the only alternative I've studied so far. The official name of the country in English is "The French Republic" this official name refers to France as contained in the European continent and also all the overseas territories'. I believe the common usage of France (or this was true for me in any case). We are thinking of "mainland" France possibly including any nearby island territories. I have learned the correct term for this is actually "Metropolitan France" (this term at least for me is also a little confusing; previously if I saw the word metropolitan, I think urban area. In the French context and from it's etymology it does make sense but wasn't very obvious to me on first look. So France is used to mean "Metropolitan France"/"Mainland (European) France. The French Republic the official name actually covers all French territories (worldwide) and isn't simply a descriptor of it's political system or lack of Monarchy the term covers different geographical area, (should I be including links to this stuff?). I found reading about France/The French Republic fascinating perhaps it is a comparison others haven't studied before/I hadn't. For the record I now understand (Republic of) Ireland is wrong, a breach of naming format etc so really I'm suggesting Ireland (Republic of) Eimhin de Róiste (talk) 12:20, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
    • Hi, Eimhin. I think you shouldn't get tied up in knots thinking about what is "official", or whether a term "officially" refers to something different from what we normally think of. Wikipedia doesn't rely on the official name in deciding an article title, but rather on the name that is most commonly used. Thus, France is the title of the article on the French Republic, but also 99% of the content is about Metropolitan France. In the case of the Irish state, the name most commonly used is "Ireland", but as that is already the title of a slightly larger and arguably more comprehensive article, it is not available. The next most common is "Republic of Ireland" (and yes, it is commonly used for the state, not just for the football team), so that's what we use. I think on a phone it's hard to read the talk page archives, but believe me there was a lot of discussion over many years, and every possible alternative was tried and not adopted. Please read Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names, which was a large and lengthy poll on possible titles in 2009, and then look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland (xxx), a poll to decide what alternatives should go into that poll, and you'll see that "Ireland (Republic of)" was a candidate, but didn't even make it into the final poll. So, although I know you believe it is a better title, you are going to have to accept that it has never got significant support, and most likely never will. Thank you for your input, and I hope you continue to enjoy the Wikipedia experience. Scolaire (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
    • P.S. Eimhin, can I ask you to always post at the bottom of the page, or at the bottom of the thread if a new thread has opened under your one? Posting part-way up the page causes confusion. Scolaire (talk) 14:56, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
      • Thanks so much Scolaire (I'm Learning, Learning). Also thanks for the common name link as well, I believe I have understood that guidance; so common usage is vital. I know you guys understand that concept and rather than me wasting your time explaining my understanding of it, I think it would be more useful for everyone if I take an example of a search result used by Dmcq in an earlier discussion Did this work He linked to his search methodology (I'm going to describe in words just now and hope in a minute to come back and paste the link he used) www.google.ie (search term) "Republic of Ireland" site.*. gov.ie and filter for the last year, the result I get is about 250 hits. If I change the search term to "Ireland" and keep everything else the same I get roughly 5500 results. I know I'm getting a bad result here as Dmcq gets 3300 results for his "Republic of Ireland" search. my search please bear with me, I'm trying hard and using a phone. I'm trying to understand the methodology to establish common usage. I know what I should do (half the time) but doing it is a little harderEimhin de Róiste (talk) 19:44, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Just to note, that particular search's results will include every instance of "Republic of Ireland" as well as the ones with just "Ireland". But I would suggest you're on the wrong track anyway. Yes, "Ireland" is almost certainly more commonly used than "Republic of Ireland" when people are writing about the state - the problem is that the WP:COMMONNAME for the island is also "Ireland". Hence we have to disambiguate at least one of them, and seeing as the state already has a description, per the constitution, of "Republic of Ireland"... "Ireland (Republic of)" brings nothing to the table except making everything more awkward for everyone, I would suggest. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that results for Ireland would need to be screened on an almost individual level to determine if they are referring to the state or the island (or in some older documents both when the Republic of Ireland still laid claim over the entire island, something they no longer do.) Canterbury Tail talk 12:19, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
...And also worth noting that the point of Dmcq's search was not the number of results it returned, but the fact that it specifically searched for its use on the Government of Ireland website, showing that "Republic of Ireland" is used by Irish government institutions, and isn't just a "common usage term likely derived from the FIFA 1953 name change decree changing the soccer team name." Scolaire (talk) 14:25, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
...Hello and again I really appreciate all the time and input from everyone. I would briefly like to check if I am understanding an objective of best article /page naming. Am I right to believe that if someone by which I mean the person on the street (from the www/outside of the Island of Ireland, the biggest user set). We(this group/wikipedia) would like these users to be able to put in a simple (natural language (so really bracket name based proposals are not good) should be able to enter a simple search and the desired results that we would like them to get should produce search results that would include the geographic land mass/region (I think Island of Ireland is a good dab, now that I understand) and also produce search results for the two political entities? I have been studying how Wikipedia search works Here Did you know that if you use the search term "Ireland" on Wikipedia search you do not get a result for "Northern Ireland", I think you should. Is this a common objective of the group? Would we all like to see the geography page and the two political areas to show on a simple search like that? Sorry I have just realised that is a mobile version of the site and search I was referring to. You can reproduce the result by using a phone 📱 or clicking on the button on the bottom of the page "switch to mobile view/site" or similar (sorry if that's stating the blindingly obvious but it wasn't to me a few days ago. Eimhin de Róiste (talk) 23:35, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Actually an enwiki search does give a result for Northern Ireland as its third result, even before Republic of Ireland, unless you confine your search to mainspace pages in which case it is still in 3rd place but now after Republic of Ireland. This is certainly the case using a computer browser. ww2censor (talk) 23:55, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Hello ww2censor and thank you for engaging in what I have been advised was an old debate from 10 years ago. Could you please provide some more details on the search you have performed as I hope to attempt to replicate your results on a PC here. I think operating system used Windows 7/10 etc (I don't think build numbers are too relevant at this point) also which browser did you use Chrome,Firefox,Bing etc should again suffice. I will check my Windows 10 machine today for the latest updates ditto browsers and try again. When I type "Ireland" on my PC it sort of auto directs to the geography page I don't get to see a list. I only see a list in mobile mode. Do I need to turn on or off some feature? Also I was searching enwiki (thanks for the new term 😉)Once again many thanks.Eimhin de Róiste (talk) 06:11, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Greetings. If you search for something which is the title of an article and just hit return it will bring you directly to that article title. If you want to search for articles which have the work in them you need to search for the option 'containing...' You can usually see this as the last option on the search tool at the bottom of the list when you enter the word in the search box at the top of the page and hover without clicking return. You can also get it by going to the search page and searching there. You'll see the results there are 1. Ireland, 2. Republic of Ireland 3. Northern Ireland. On the page about the island there is also a hat note that tells you to go to the other page, Republic of Ireland for the article about the state and to Northern Ireland for that one. ☕ Antiqueight chatter 08:02, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Eimhin. I gather that your phone (a Lumia 950 XL if I remember correctly) is a fairly modern one, so I'll assume it behaves more or less the same as mine. When I get up the Wikipedia front page on my phone, tap the search bar and type "Irel", my first result is already "Ireland", with a pretty map and text including "currently divided into the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland." When I tap on that I get the Ireland article, with a hatnote with links to both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I fail to see what your problem is. I struggle even more to understand what linking to Northern Ireland has to do with the title of the article on the 26-county state. Please bear in mind that a talk page is not a message board or a blog. This move request very quickly produced a consensus against moving, and we shouldn't be dragging it out with long conversations about different issues. Scolaire (talk) 12:33, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
As a matter if interest, I investigated searching Ireland both with the Wikipedia app and with a browser on a smartphone and it appears that these searches only show results for articles that start with the word "Ireland"; the app returns 24 results while the mobile browser version only gives 15 results. You suggested rename "(Republic of) Ireland" would not appear in those results at all. I was going to mention, as Scolaire and Antiqueight detailed above about the hatnote, so won't repeat it. Ireland is the first search result, so there is really no problem in finding the article you need however you search. ww2censor (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Per Scolaire and others, this thread has moved beyond it's intent (a discussion to confirm whether there is consensus for a move). The original intent/purpose is met. IMO this thread can and should be closed. Further discussions can happen elsewhere. If there are no objections, I will close myself. Guliolopez (talk) 13:26, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

it is a bit sad the Wikipedia app just does a silly autocomplete rather than being a bit more intelligent like Wikipedia search. It is on about the same level as when I just tried typing "Trump is a" into Google and its first suggestion is Trump is a democrat ;-) Dmcq (talk) 16:23, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello and sorry, if I had realised that trying to get the three results for Ireland (Island, N.I. and Ireland (state)) to appear on the list of search results particularly for mobile users was not a desirable objective, no problem I didn't mean to be off topic. Dmcq when you performed you R.O.I. search how many results does that produce for the gov.ie domain you mention 3300, I can only get it to produce roughly 250 (following your posted link, at the top of the page, even with a PC😉) were you including other domains to get to the figure 3300? Thanks for considering my cardiology I very much appreciate that.Eimhin de Róiste (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Terrible disambig

Latest comment: 6 years ago11 comments5 people in discussion

I honestly think the disambig between Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is the worst on Wikipedia. The primary topic relating to the word “Ireland” is definitely not the island. “Ireland” should be a disambig Page OR link to Republic of Ireland. The current state is truly awful; many pages link to “Ireland” by mistake when they should link to “Republic of Ireland”. I know this has been discussed before but it needs to be discussed again. To clarify I DO NOT want to move “Republic of Ireland” to “Ireland” but an discussing the possibility of moving “Ireland” to “Ireland (island)” and making “Ireland” the disambig article. It is clear that “Republic of Ireland” is the best name for the country but “Ireland” is not the best name for the island. IWI (chat) 09:25, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

The first line of Ireland provides a link to the ROI so adding more pages that end up with the same result adds no value. MilborneOne (talk) 10:26, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
Unless you have a particularly good and appropriately Wikipedia driven argument I'd recommend leaving it alone - this has been discussed over and over from almost every perspective. The current situation has been the consensus and unless you have a reasonable expectation of changing the consensus you are just creating noise. (PS Ireland is the name of the island.) ☕ Antiqueight chatter 10:47, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
The idea that "many pages link to Ireland by mistake when they should link to Republic of Ireland" is an oft-repeated myth. I looked at the first 13 pages I saw on What links here – August, Agrarianism, August 1, Abbess, Australian English, Advance Australia Fair, Ælle of Sussex, AFC Ajax, Archaeoastronomy, Barbados, British Isles, Bernard Montgomery and British and Irish Lions – and not one of them inappropriately linked to the Ireland article. Several of them had links to both Ireland and (pipelinked) Republic of Ireland (as well as Kingdom of Ireland and other articles), all of them correct. I see no reason to believe that that is an unrepresentative selection. If you find an article with a wrong link in it, then change it. Scolaire (talk) 11:45, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
You'll need an incredibly strong set of references to support the fact that an island with that name, central to all sorts of history over millennia, is not as much of a primary topic as a country that has existed for a hundred years. And that most references to Ireland are referring to the country/state and not the island when it's pretty clear most of the world's population doesn't actually realize there's a difference between the two, even including people in the UK in all honesty. Please provide examples of where articles link to Ireland when they should link to Republic of Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 14:22, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I thought that. The thing is, Ireland is also the name of the country. In common speech, “Ireland” most commonly refers to the country so this article being titled “Ireland” seems inappropriate. IM(now educated)O, “Ireland” should definitely be a disambig with the island changing to “Ireland (Island)”. And also don’t patronise me, I know the island is called “Ireland”, I just don’t think that name is a good idea. IWI (chat) 13:42, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Furthermore, the only reason the ROI has only existed for a relatively small amount of time is because of British rule. IWI (chat) 13:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't being patronising - assuming from context that that comment is meant for me. You said you don't think it is a good name for the island. That is as may be but it IS the name of the island, it is also the name of the country though those currently have two different geographical areas. They haven't always. You may have meant you didn't think it was a good name for the article about the island but that wasn't what you said and it would have been presumptuous of me to make that assumption. Also- you offer no evidence that when people refer to Ireland they usually mean the state. I certainly don't. ☕ Antiqueight chatter 14:07, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
I meant for the article i.e “Ireland (island)” not “Ireland”. IWI (chat) 14:36, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
So, if it hadn't been for British rule, the Republic of Ireland would have existed since about 1170?
You have managed to ignore all of the responses to your initial argument, apart from taking umbrage at being "patronised". You haven't offered any evidence that 32-county Ireland is not the primary topic, and you haven't offered any evidence that "many pages link to Ireland by mistake". Since you are ignoring us, I recommend that we all ignore you, and just stop replying per WP:DENY. --Scolaire (talk) 14:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
That was a misunderstanding on both parts. I wasn’t patronised but I thought that I was. I’m not ignoring you. I could find evidence but I am using WP:COMMONSENSE. Never mind, continue denying any move proposal. I could have given you 50 pieces of evidence and it wouldn’t be enough because it’s been discussed before. IWI (chat) 14:50, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Editors in this WikiProject may be interested in the featured quality source review RFC that has been ongoing. It would change the featured article candidate process (FAC) so that source reviews would need to occur prior to any other reviews for FAC. Your comments are appreciated. --IznoRepeat (talk) 21:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

How to refer to people born in Ireland before partition

Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Is there a consensus on how to refer to people born in Ireland (Island) which is now made up of Ireland (state) / Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland?

Should they be referred to the name by their current state, as is currently done in many cases (so would be most likely Northern Irish) or is it simply on a case by case basis and where they resided post partition?

Based on the proclomation they could be considered Irish as it claimed anyone simply born on island of Ireland etc. CuriousStapler (talk) 02:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

The guideline is at MOS:IMOS BIOPLACE. People born anywhere in Ireland before 1921 have "Ireland" as their place of birth. Per WP:OVERLINK, "Ireland" should not be linked. Scolaire (talk) 11:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I always use Ireland as the only vaguely viable alternative is United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and absolutely no one wants to use that. So yes, just use Ireland. I strongly recommend not putting in "now known as NI/ROI etc" stuff, it's just cumbersome and a person's article isn't the right place to discuss geographic and political geography topics as it's not about or relevant to the person. Born in Ireland, only mention the following states if there is a real reason to, such as they become a prominent political figure of that state etc. Canterbury Tail talk 16:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Merge "Ireland" with "Geography of Ireland", Ireland_(disambiguation) -> Ireland discussion

Latest comment: 4 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apologies if I'm putting this is the wrong place but I joined just to post on the rather odd situation here that a geography page takes up the name of a country. This goes against every other Wikipedia article I can find and don't need any logic in it. Could someone explain why this proposal to move is not inline with norms on Wikipedia and in real life? Below are some pages and where they link to

China -> The country of China Cyprus -> The country of Cyprus Australia -> The country of Australia Geography of Cyprus -> about the geography Geography of China -> about the geography Macedonia (region) -> about the geography Australia (continent) -> about the geography Palestine_(region) -> about the geography AlbaniaAndorraArmeniaAustriaAzerbaijanBelarusBelgiumBosnia and HerzegovinaBulgariaCroatiaCyprusCzech RepublicDenmarkEstoniaFinlandFranceGeorgiaGermanyGreeceHungaryIcelandIrelandItalyKazakhstanLatviaLiechtensteinLithuaniaLuxembourgMaltaMoldovaMonacoMontenegroNetherlandsNorth MacedoniaNorwayPolandPortugalRomaniaRussiaSan MarinoSerbiaSlovakiaSloveniaSpainSwedenSwitzerlandTurkeyUkraineUnited KingdomVatican City all point to 'Geography of XXX' except for Ireland. I'm sure it's the same for non European pages too.

It seems very contentious that Ireland does not have the same clarification as a geographic entity especially given that name is more commonly used to refer to the country than the island. Along with the dozens of government and international bodies stating that Ireland should be used for the country and with all the examples of Wikipedia above can I reopen the discussion of the titles so that we don't need to use an archaic outlier? Other than a few small ones, the only major discussion I can see was over ten years ago and I couldn't see this being mentioned then. And other than people voting for it then, is there any reason to go against all of the other geographical articles and common use in real life? Sorry for my bad formatting. But I'm very interested in this topic and would like to go through the right channels. For the record I only wish to discuss the geography article, not the country one. Altköllner (talk) 20:36, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

given that name is more commonly used to refer to the country than the island I'd like evidence for that claim please. What was Ireland before the 26-county state came into existence? A country by any chance? FDW777 (talk) 20:39, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Could the same not be said of any island nation? Which is why I pointed to Cyprus and Australia as obvious comparisons. I did a google search and of the first non Wiki results 85% of Ireland's referred to the nation, 10% to the island (travel) and 5% used island of Ireland. Is it possible to see which article between Ireland (geography) and Ireland (country) has the most links? However, there's no point getting side track on this too much as while it benefits my argument, my main point is that 99% of geography articles follow a different process and still don't see why Ireland is different. Do you have anything to say about my other points on consisteny between geography articles?Altköllner (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Ireland is not about the "Geography of Ireland". This is easily established by the fact Geography of Ireland already exists, and is in fact a featured article. FDW777 (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

−

Indeed, apologies if I gave the wrong impression of using the word move. I believe merge is the right term to use from what I read around me and have adjust the title of this section accordingly. Every other example still uses a disambiguation page or clarifier next to a name. Given the redundancy there are so many articles saying the same thing making the current Ireland page even more misleading. Do you have any other comments on my other points?Altköllner (talk) 21:45, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

WP:Google is not a source in of itself that can be reliably used. Also what about other islands such as Great Britain?
Also geography isn't even the predominant focus of the article so your suggestion would be very misleading.
You would also be screwing up the agreed format for people born on the island pre-Partition whereby they are listed as being from simply Ireland. Obviously they should be linked to what state it was part of at the time referenced as other articles would but you try to sell that to the Irish brigade here.
Then again if I wanted to go to an article about the geography of Ireland I would just go to the Geography of Ireland article. Mabuska (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Are there any other sources of truth of which is more regularly? What about Wikipedia and the number of links? What about other sources which use Ireland for the country? Are there any that use Ireland for the geographical island other than Wikipedia? I don't know the details about your other point, but someone wrote above that the practice is not to link to Ireland but just say Ireland, so that's not an issue.

I want to stick to the point that the logic of the Ireland page doesn't make any sense given that 99% of other similar articles use a different structure. And given common usage on top (As far as anyone else here seems to be able to proove) also backs the point that the article is redundant and should be cleaned in line with other articles like in the many examples given above. Altköllner (talk) 21:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

You don't seem to be recognising all the points made in response or issues associated, which clearly show why your proposal is a non starter. Also Ireland is linked too in those articles I referred to, whether they are meant to be or not.
Pick up any Irish history book dealing with dawn of time to pre-Partition and they will all use Ireland in a geographical AND geopolitical sense. There are literally countless Irish historical books going back at least 2 centuries were they simply use Ireland in that sense. Shall we disregard all that?
When referring to the British Isles many publications and sources instead refer to Great Britain and Ireland instead because of the supposed political connotations of "British". They don't state geographical Ireland or island of Ireland in such titles but it's clear enough it means the island as Northern Ireland is not in GB.
You would need a better argument to back up your idea but there are too many obstacles for it. Also whilst consistency is desirable in articles, it is not a rule in if itself and things can be different depending on the WikiProjects involved who can derive their an agreed format as they have done here. Mabuska (talk) 23:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:DERRY

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is a discussion at Talk:County Londonderry#Requested move 28 September 2020 proposing to move the county to County Derry which would go against the longstanding rule on Wikipedia. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 22 March 2022

Latest comment: 2 years ago16 comments10 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW closure. (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 14:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)


Republic of Ireland → Ireland (country) – "Ireland" in indistinguishably the common name of this political entity. However, calling it the "Republic of Ireland" as if it were a proper name is misleading; Republic of Ireland it is not the official name of the country in any capacity (Ireland and Éire are). The proposed title is easily recognizable by any English speaker vaguely familiar with Ireland, unambiguously identifies the article subject as distinct from other subjects, and is concise. Notably, improves on the WP:CRITERIA of naturalness (most people will simply search for "Ireland"), while also implementing parenthetical disambiguation in line with WP:TITLEDAB. — Mhawk10 (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Hiya. In terms of not being convinced, that's grand. It's not my intent or obligation to convince anyone. As you know, this thread you opened (as with the many dozens that preceded it and which you may not have had a chance to fully read through yet) are about building consensus. Not about convincing every contributor. Your own argument, similarly, hasn't convinced me that the longstanding consensus compromise is wrong. Or has since been superseded by real-world events. Like Brexit. Or whatever weak argument was laid-out a while back :) I for one am delighted to contribute to a community where people can disagree - and still effect progress. (In the meantime, and if several dozen of these near-verbatim discussions have taught me anything worth imparting, it's that responding to every other contributors comments will wreck your head :) . Guliolopez (talk) 17:04, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Honestly, I think it's fair to raise the discussion every few years as consensus can change. However new arguments would really need to be brought to the table to change the consensus, and I don't see anything new here. Canterbury Tail talk 20:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Having the discussion again seems reasonable but indeed per Wikipedia:Consensus doesn't have to change it doesn't seem like any new points are coming up so it seems like WP:SNOW. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
And North Korea and South Korea aren't even in any way remotely close to their names, nor in any way connected, just made up western names. Canterbury Tail talk 14:46, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Republic of Ireland article name

Latest comment: 2 years ago11 comments8 people in discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am reading this page with mild wonder and amusement. Are people really voting over if we should use the official name of "Ireland" or the unofficial name of "Republic of Ireland"? Is it a limitation of Wikipedia to fix this? I don't understand the reasoning why people would not want the official and factual name. Just to add the wiki article "Ireland" actually says "Geopolitically, Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland)". It can't even use the correct term but acknowledges it is using the wrong term. Dark archeus (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Also from an official source: https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/italy/our-role/about-ireland/

> The Constitution of Ireland of 1937, provides that Ireland (or Éire in Irish) is the official name of the State and following the enactment of the Republic of Ireland Act of 1948, in 1949, Ireland became a Republic.

"Republic of Ireland" is the act that declared "Ireland" the official name. Dark archeus (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

If you want a good read, look at Archives 6 through 34 (links at the top of the page). This has been discussed on and off since 2002 (since 2009 on this page) None of your arguments are new. The limitation on Wikipedia is that one title can only be used for one article. Longstanding consensus, arising out of those many, many discussions, is that it should be for the island. And by the way, the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 was the act that stated that "Republic of Ireland" could be used; it did not declare "Ireland" the official name. Scolaire (talk) 10:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
I posted a link to an official source. You posted to a Wikipedia link as your source. The link you posted if you bother to review its source it says that “Ireland” can be referred to as “Republic of Ireland” but it is not renamed to that and it is not it’s official name. Dark archeus —Preceding undated comment added 04:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi, and thanks for the interest. If you've read the above links, you will see that this topic has been debated for nearly 20 years, and your points have been considered many times. The problem is simple - there can be only one article named Ireland and so that is the island, while the country at least has an official alternative, which even the Irish Government uses (surprisingly often, actually). Republic of Ireland *is* an official alternative (making it so was one of the purposes of the Republic of Ireland Act), and so here we are. Many (I'd guess most) of us involved in the debate are Irish, and we care about the result, and we have stopped with the best combination we can find. SeoR (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Well put. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Also wholeheartedly agree with SeoR's summary. The outcome, summarised under the WP:IRE-IRL guideline, represents a longstanding consensus compromise that the island is best located at "Ireland" and the state at "Republic of Ireland". As both titles reflect natural language. And the DAB terms used in natural and official language. Whereas the alternatives, like Ireland (island) and/or Ireland (state), represent neither. Is it perfect? No. Is it well-considered and based in reality? Yes. (Separately, and while I applaud SeoR for not rising to it, the suggestion that any of the editors here have "not bothered to review" the facts or the acts or the constitution, is misguided in the extreme.) Guliolopez (talk) 11:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I previously had thought to rename Republic of Ireland to Ireland (country), Ireland to Ireland (island), and Ireland (disambiguation) to Ireland—in order to match the naming conventions found at Jammu and Kashmir (disambiguation). Now, I decided to hold the renaming of Republic of Ireland, and instead planned to rename Ireland to Ireland (island) and Ireland (disambiguation) to Ireland. It should be noted that I am not a participant of the project, just sharing my thoughts in the Ireland naming conventions, and renaming any of them without a 20-editor discussion will block me permanently due to the violation of the longstanding consensus. @Guliolopez: Any thoughts? --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 13:40, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi Soumya-8974. Respectfully I do not know why you are pinging me. Exclusively. There are umpteen other contributors to this WP:IECOLL project and dozens (if not hundreds) of others who have previously contributed to the discussions which resulted in the WP:IRE-IRL consensus outcome. Your proposal is completely at odds with that consensus discussion. I am not sure what it is specifically what you are asking me. But my "thoughts" are that your proposal (to rename any of the Ireland articles without consensus agreement) is ill-advised. Guliolopez (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I would like to point out that "Republic of Ireland" as a descriptor has an official status similar to that of "Dominion of Canada." Fortunately, no one feels a need to impose that title on our Wikipedia article, since many Canadians would deeply dislike it, despite its official status. Our official name is simply "Canada." I appreciate the pain that some Irish people feel over the use of "Republic of Ireland," and I would like to ask why Samoa is treated differently. Wikipedia respects Samoa's decision to call itself "Samoa," despite it lying right next to another jurisdiction called American Samoa in an archipelago also called Samoa. The Samoan Islands page was created in 2004, after Western Samoa's name change to Samoa. Parallel treatment would suggest "Ireland" and "Island of Ireland." Waering (talk) 07:19, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
The current state of Ireland, aka the Republic of Ireland, is not the primary meaning of the word "Ireland", because it's only existed since the 1940s, and Ireland has a longer history than that. There is a lot more more to the topic of "Ireland" than the current republic and the geography of the island. I just searched "Ireland" on Amazon, and of the first page of results, only a couple of them could even be argued to be about the modern republic.
Also, anyone who talks about people feeling "pain" about the use of a term that is specifically provided for in Irish consititutional law is being absurdly melodramatic at best, and engaging in emotional blackmail at worst. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:53, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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