Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 25

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Piping team names to avoid redirects

Hello, I'm not a member of this project but I thought I'd quickly correct a few links in the wake of the Hornets' history moving back to Charlotte, and I noticed that the problem is more wide-spread than I had thought. All sorts of team names are being piped to the current name, presumably to avoid redirects. On the face of it some of these seem harmless, ie links to the New Jersey Nets team being piped to link directly to the Brooklyn Nets page. However, in situations where team histories move around, it becomes a rather large issue. There are countless links to the Charlotte Hornets that have been piped to the New Orleans Pelicans, and it's going to be a nightmare to go through and figure out which are correct and which need to be changed. I've also seen some links to the Seattle SuperSonics which are piped to the Oklahoma City Thunder, which again will be very hard to locate and correct. I think it would be beneficial if there were some sort of guideline and effort to avoid these, as in most cases it is cleanest to simply link to the team's name as it was at the time and not to worry about redirection. It shouldn't matter if the link is currently a redirect and the team's name has changed, as it's a lot easier to fix a redirect than it is to go through and change hundreds of links and point them to the right page. -Fandraltastic (talk) 03:18, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely agree that the pipes are needless , and in cases like this, a nuisance. The existing guideline is WP:NOTBROKEN. Unfortunately, I rarely see it followed, nor explained why it is being ignored.—Bagumba (talk) 15:23, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I cleaned up some of the piping and it was disputed, so I started a discussion here. I encourage any Project members who wish to contribute to do so. -Fandraltastic (talk) 02:54, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

It's best to have a centralized discussion. I've moved the one from the other page here.—Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

• I don't understand the issue about the Hornet's history. Is Anthony Davis now a former Bobcat?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

The Charlotte portion of the Hornets' history has been returned to the Bobcats/new-Hornets. The New Orleans years remain with the Pelicans. So no. -Fandraltastic (talk) 05:44, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay I concede. I will go through all of the career regular season and career playoff pages and edit all of them. I'd been updating those pages nightly for like the last seven years so those pages sort of became "my little babies" haha. Sorry for the OCD. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 01:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Charlotte Hornets records and history

Does the current Charlotte Hornets (that were founded as Charlotte Bobcats in 2004) retain/share the records and history from the original Charlotte Hornets (1988–2002)? I was browsing through the renamed articles and found out that the coaches from the original Charlotte Hornets (1988–2002) were recently added to the List of Charlotte Hornets head coaches. Plenty of other Hornets-related articles now contain combined history from both franchises. — MT (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

From what I have read in the news. Everything prior to 2002 move away from Charlotte has switched to the new Charlotte Hornets team. Anything after 2002 remains with the New Orleans Pelicans. -DJSasso (talk) 16:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, my bad, I just read the press release. Please ignore this thread. — MT (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Charlotte Hornets players that relocated with team to New Orleans

I saw that players like Baron Davis had "Charlotte / New Orleans Hornets" as one entry in their team history in their infobox. Since the Charlotte Hornets team history is no longer a part of the New Orleans franchise, and the New Orleans Hornets team history remains with the Pelicans, should Davis and other players now have two separate entries for their infobox: Charlotte Hornets and New Orleans Hornets?—Bagumba (talk) 07:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I've boldly changed Baron Davis to have two entries.—Bagumba (talk) 02:36, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Are there any other players who are in league with Baron Davis? - Hoops gza (talk) 01:58, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Davis didn't change teams, so it seems counterintuitive to have two entries, but I'm not hard over on it. Rikster2 (talk) 02:05, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Jamal Mashburn also played with the Hornets both in Charlotte and New Orleans. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm in favor of listing the entry as Charlotte / New Orleans Hornets with two distinct wikilinks. Technically, Davis didn't change teams, no free agency movement or trades took place during his Hornets career. Anyway, here are the full list of players who played for both Charlotte and New Orleans Hornets: Kenny Anderson (basketball), Elden Campbell, Jerome Moiso, Kirk Haston, Jamal Mashburn, Robert Traylor, Bryce Drew, Stacey Augmon, David Wesley, Baron Davis, Lee Nailon, Jamaal Magloire, George Lynch (basketball), P. J. Brown. — MT (talk) 03:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree with that. So what you're saying is those players you listed are the ones that played for the Hornets during their last season in Charlotte and into their first season in New Orleans, right? Coulraphobic123 (talk) 04:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, they are the players that played for the Hornets during their last season in Charlotte and into their first season in New Orleans. Sorry for not clearing that up in my previous post. — MT (talk) 10:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Martin Tamb's suggestion of 2 links/one entry. It would be consistent with how we have handled franchise moves/name changes in the past but keeps the links correct. Rikster2 (talk) 10:32, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's not exactly consistent because it's not a simple franchise move. In the case of "Seattle SuperSonics / Oklahoma City Thunder" (from Kevin Durant), both the Sonics and the Thunder are the same franchise who relocated and was renamed. The Hornets case is slightly more complicated. The Hornets press release stated that the history of Charlotte Hornets (1988–2002) will be moved to the current Charlotte Hornets (formerly Bobcats), while the history of the New Orleans Hornets will be attached to the New Orleans Pelicans' history. Based on this, Davis' statistics during his 3 years with in Charlotte will be included in the Charlotte Hornets all-time statistics along with former Bobcats players, while Davis' statistics during his 3 years in New Orleans will be included in the Pelicans all-time statistics along with current Pelicans players. In the past, it was just a simple franchise move from Charlotte to New Orleans, but due to recent changes in their history, the Charlotte Hornets and the New Orleans Hornets became two distinct franchises. — MT (talk) 10:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I get it, but that's way too much complexity to try and get across in a team chronology in an infobox. Separate entries philosophically mean distinct club movement and these guys never actually moved clubs and in fact were playing under the same contract. To me, that's the bottom line. Rikster2 (talk) 11:08, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

However, per the league they have retroactively moved clubs and that there was distinct club movement. It may have been the same contract but it was now to separate clubs. Like a player traded to another team, its still the same contract he is playing under at the new team. -DJSasso (talk) 12:19, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

But in the case of a trade the contract is intentionally transferred from one team to another, which is a transaction. Rikster2 (talk) 13:12, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong I completely understand this is a convoluted situation. But the announcement seems to me to be that they retroactively inserted those transfers. I know in reality no such transaction happened at the time. But the whole point of this move seems to be to add in all of those various transactions etc now that would have happened had this stuff been done back then. I think for ease of reading I would just put them as separate lines and it also will prevent it from giving a different impression than the rest of our articles on the teams give. -DJSasso (talk) 13:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Could someone with a firm understanding of this please take a look at the recent edits of IP Special:Contributions/152.8.76.129? I believe they have been incorrectly changing the links to various Hornets-related articles. - Hoops gza (talk) 20:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Infobox image for retired players

For a former player like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, should their infobox image be one from their playing days—for which they are primarily notable—or a recent photo, where they have noticeably aged?—Bagumba (talk) 08:00, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Most other sports WikiProjects go with current photo, unless when the person is dead then they'd use a photo when he was playing. –HTD 12:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I would think it would be most appropriate to use a photo from a time the subject is considered most notable. For players, it would also be one with the team they are associated with the most. I also think the criteria should be independent of whether a person is dead or alive.—Bagumba (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Kareem's more recent photo seems OK to me, since he is still in the public eye as a fairly prolific writer and commentator. I wouldn't oppose swapping the photo with one from his playing days, but what's there now isn't obviously wrong, IMO. Zagalejo^^^ 17:35, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The rule of thumb for pictures on most of the wiki is to use the most recent decent quality picture you can find if they are still alive. If they have passed on then you use the best picture you have for them period which for sports players would usually be from their playing days. The distinction between alive and dead is because if the person is alive you would want to display their current look just like you would display current information of any other aspect of their life, but once they pass on then the article is more historical in nature and you can use any picture to describe them historically. -DJSasso (talk) 17:56, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, should use most recent if still in the public eye (and Kareem is), playing career if not or dead. Incidentally, if the retired player is a current coach I think it's most appropriate to use a current photo (Kevin McHale is an example if an article that has it wrong IMO). Rikster2 (talk) 21:41, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Based on input so far, I agree with the merits of using most recent photo for a living person, and playing photo for a deceased player.—Bagumba (talk) 22:09, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd also be in favor of using a playing photo for a living player if he isn't connected to basketball anymore for a long time. For example, those bench players in the NBA that are currently not coaching or aren't executives. –HTD 22:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Kevin McHale, a head coach, is a good example of needing a current photo. What about someone like Larry Bird, however, who is a current team president? - Hoops gza (talk) 23:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:Kittens

Spring has arrived for this litter: Jamie Young (basketball), John Welch (basketball), Rex Kalamian, Mike Terpstra, Micah Shrewsberry, and Eric Hughes (basketball).

I'm sure more are on the way courtesy of User:Robert4565. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:41, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Are these prospective AFDs?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:55, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Not sure. I bet at least a couple of them are. I'm too busy doing other stuff to take the initiative to research their merits and potentially set up their TfDs myself, but I'd still participate in the discussions with my !vote if those happened to open up. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Couple more now: Chad Iske and Lloyd Pierce. Jrcla2 (talk) 02:07, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Jamie Young is probably OK; here's another source that could be used. I haven't looked at the other articles, but I bet many are salvageable, with some effort. Zagalejo^^^ 02:43, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Duane Ticknor, Jim Sann, Jama Mahlalela, Alex McKechnie and Jesse Mermuys as well. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:26, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

According to WP:NBASKETBALL, a basketball figure is notable if they have appeared in at least one NBA game. Almost all of these articles are assistant coaches that have worked with at least one NBA team for year(s) and have appeared in an NBA game. I will stop creating these until this matter is resolved. Robert4565 (talk) 03:54, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that guideline is supposed to refer only to players, not coaches or other personnel. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:36, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

That's precisely what that guideline is for. Coaches adhere to a different standard, more reliant upon GNG. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:26, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Jrcla2, This should be made more clear then on WP:NBASKETBALL because I've seen many articles on assistant coaches similar to mine on Wikipedia. Robert4565 (talk) 15:08, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing that the wording could be made clearer in the guideline. Since I don't know what assistant coaches you're referring to I can't comment on them specifically, but there's a good chance that they're notable for other reasons than their notability being reliant upon their NBA assistant coach status, which does not meet the threshold for inherent notability. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Jrcla2, I will work on finding other sources that address their notability and that show that they are a significant subject in a media coverage, not just by the NBA itself. Robert4565 (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Jrcla2, If you don't disagree the guidlines could be made clearer and others don't disagree then the WP:NBASKETBALL should be made more clearer. The Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame could say that they honor all-time great basketball figures, and they add coaches, referees, players, contributors. These could all mean basketball figures (I also want to reduce the work for you highly active editors because it is time consuming to go through TFD process). Robert4565 (talk) 00:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I've made a change to WP:NBASKETBALL to exclude assistants here.—Bagumba (talk) 05:16, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey all,

I've searched for secondary realiable sources for each of the articles Jrcla2 mentioned. I am inclined to nominate Eric Hughes (basketball) and Chad Iske for deletion, as I could not find realiable(s) secondary source where the person was a significant subject of it. I will attempt to improve the other articles, as I have found sources that might establish notability. Robert4565 (talk) 02:57, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Jim Sann might also be good to delete.Robert4565 (talk) 15:39, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I've added more references to the other articles listed above, and I think those articles should be kept.Robert4565 (talk) 15:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a good day for you learn how to PROD articles, Robert4565. How about you take care of it for those that need it? Rikster2 (talk) 16:25, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I have done so with the three articles that I have mentioned. There is still these articles that Jrcla2 mentioned: Jamie Young (basketball), John Welch (basketball), Rex Kalamian, Mike Terpstra, Micah Shrewsberry, and Eric Hughes (basketball), Chad Iske and Lloyd Pierce, Duane Ticknor, Jim Sann, Jama Mahlalela, Alex McKechnie and Jesse Mermuys. Feel free to add PROD to any articles. However, I believe the three I listed were the only ones that weren't salvageable.Robert4565 (talk) 18:30, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Possible articles

I want to get others opinions on this and discuss whether these articles will be notable enough. I think that there should be an All-time roster page for each NBA D-League team. I believe these would be notable because it would address a subject matter to people around the world and people around the world watch and read about D-League players. Robert4565 (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Standalone lists in Wikipedia need to meet WP:LISTN, which would be at best debatable in this case. Not sure if one already exists, but something like List of NBA players who played in the D-League would be something more interesting IMO.—Bagumba (talk) 17:09, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you would have a hard time with even that being a notable list, but it certainly would be closer than by individual team. -DJSasso (talk) 17:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I think a decent lead could be written with articles like these[1][2][3]. I do see there is an existing embedded list at NBA_Development_League#Successful_NBA_call-ups, so that could be made more complete even if it is not spun out.—Bagumba (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I misread your example article title, yes a list of actual NBA players who played in the D-league might be good. I read it as everyone who played in the D-league. -DJSasso (talk) 17:38, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

If this is done, it should probably exclude NBA players assigned to the D-League, which is pretty common now with new draftees.—Bagumba (talk) 17:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Seems like if you eliminate assignees, then "List of NBA players who played in the D-League" isn't particularly accurate. I think it'd be tough to segment it to those who started in the D-League and then ended up in the NBA. Users would continually add the "missing" players in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 19:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Seems to be the tradeoffs of WP:LISTNAME: we don't want the title to be too pedantic, but we want to prevent drive-by additions to lists that don't meet the exact selection criteria described in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 19:56, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject National Basketball Association At Wikimania 2014

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

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• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 16:55, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

GMs and presidents of basketball operations

I'm not seeing consistent edits in templates with team's GMs and presidents of basketball operations. For example, Template:NBAgeneralmanagers is ambiguous with the note on the bottom of "Those listed here either hold the title President of Basketball Operations or General Manager, or both." For example, the template has Phil Jackson listed for the Knicks, though their GM is Steve Mills. The Lakers on the other hand, have GM Mitch Kupchak listed, though Jim Buss is their VP of Basketball Operations. Also Template:Infobox NBA team has only a "General Manager" field, with a recent edit to New York Knicks cramming both Jackson and Mills into the field.

1. Should we continue listing one "head" per team in these type of templates, or list both a GM and a basketball operations lead?
2. In cases like NY where a team does not have a person with an explicit "basketball operations" title, do we list the president of the team?
3. If we just list one person, when should a president or a VP of basketball operations be listed instead of the GM?

—Bagumba (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I see that User:The Writer 2.0 recently enhanced Template:Infobox NBA team to have an explicit "president" field. Remaining issue is whether presidents should be displayed as they currently are at Template:NBAgeneralmanagers.—Bagumba (talk) 21:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Michael Jordan wearing the #12

Four years ago an issue was brought up on Michael Jordan's talk page about regarding him wearing the number 12 in a game against the Magic in 1990 because the jersey he was supposed to wear had been stolen. While this fact is well sourced, I don't feel the number should be included in the infobox since it was never an official number as well as the circumstances surrounding the reason why he had to wear it. It is a situation that if you did research on it, I'm sure it happened quite frequently back then before they started having backup jersey's for each player. I do think it is worth noting in the body in the Pistons roadblock (1987–1990) section since that's when it happened, but I feel the numbers in the infobox should only be numbers they were listed at, since heights, weights, and positions have to match what they are listed on the rosters as. For example, when Jordan returned to the Bulls, he wore 45 and was actually listed at 45 for a brief period when he returned.--Rockchalk717 03:19, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I've found in cases where there is conflicting opinions on the "right" value to place in an infobox, the most stable (i.e. fewest reverts required) solution usually involves leveraging explanatory footnotes to explain the technicalities. For example, this is often the route the project has taken for discrepancies in a player's listed vs actual height, e.g. Talk:Jonas_Valančiūnas#Height_and_Weight_Listing. I sympathize with wanting to come to a consensus with the "right" information to display and the "wrong" information to exclude in an infobox, but cases like this are more gray than black and white. Excluding info that is verifiable, will invariably lead to drive-by edits that revert back to the other verifiable interpretation of the "right" info.—Bagumba (talk) 05:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Another compromise would be to only list "23, 45" e.g. remove 12 from the main display, but leave the existing footnote in the infobox explaining he did wear 12. Frankly, I think it's too trivial to mention in the body, and the footnote will hopefully deter endless edits to add/remove 12 in the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I would be ok with that actually. It keeps the numbers being listed at numbers that he was actually listed at and if other editors are ok with it after more people see this, than that makes it even better, since just you and I agreeing, I believe, doesn't necessarily constitute a consensus.--Rockchalk717 06:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Two things: 1) if there'd be a footnote, might as well put #12 in there, and 2) why have jersey numbers? This is the only sports WikiProject that I know of that does this. –HTD 17:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't feel that strongly about any part of this issue (even about including jersey numbers at all), but (American) football also dislays number for retired players. I do think jersey number creates confusion for players who didn't spend their entire career in the NBA. Are European, AAU or college numbers meant to display here as well? Rikster2 (talk) 17:37, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

If we're having a discussion on which NBA jersey number is acceptable, imagine for every level or basketball, even national team hoops... –HTD 17:49, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

And see, I'm not in favor of adding national team numbers at all. That isn't a season, in most cases it's usually a single tournament. Rikster2 (talk) 17:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

This could be somewhat true for American NBA players, which is mostly two Olympic cycles tops, but national team players elsewhere have built a career out of their national teams. Now, I dunno if someone like Yao Ming used the exact same jersey number while playing for China, but for the Chinese it must've been more important to see Yao playing for China than him playing for the Rockets. Same thing for every level of basketball. –HTD 18:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

We seem to be getting away from the original issue I brought up though. I wanted to find a consensus if 12 should be included in Michael Jordan's infobox. Considering his 23 Jordan jersey had been stolen prior to the one and only game he wore that number, it shouldn't be included. However the number things is important. I think the numbers that should be included are the ones in their professional careers regardless of league. NFL pages do something similar. But if a player had more than lets say 5 or 6 numbers to throw a number out there, list the top ones he wore the longest. Jim Jackson and Joe Smith are good examples of players with multiple numbers that played for multiple teams. I don't think those look to bad considering they list 6 numbers for both players.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockchalk717 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 12 June 2014‎ (UTC)

Sorry about that. The question is which numbers are dropping in the infobox. This opens a can of worms on which numbers are droppable and which aren't. For example, Rasheed Wallace is retired now, but if he's still active, would his jersey number while playing for Altanta for a game counts? I'd presume, yes, but Sheed wasn't staying in Atlanta for very long anyway; what if he didn't even play and just received a DNP-CD?

Also, I'm a big fan of footnotes. I'm not a big fan of footnotes in infoboxes, though. –HTD 19:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Active player's typically only have one number listed: their current number for their current team. As for retired players, I'd be OK with removing them. For me, it's not that helpful without knowing which number was worn for which team. If the display stays as is, footnotes beat the alternative of constant reversions by drive-by editors who won't be aware of prior consensus on talk pages. —Bagumba (talk) 20:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I won't be necessarily opposed to active players if we'd only have their current number, then it goes away when they retire.... which reminds me, if Sheed's infobox doesn't have jersey numbers, why does MJ's have them? –HTD 22:18, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

For Rasheed, his number is listed in the infobox under the "Career information" section. Since he became an assistant coach, his number was moved to the "career_number" parameter so that it didn't appear he had a number as a coach (further background at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball/Archive4#Enhancements_to_current_infobox).—Bagumba (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

What about figuring out someway to color code the numbers like at basketball-reference.com see for an example: [4]? Most fans would recognize the color scheme of certain team like purple and gold, you know that's Lakers, red and black, that's the Heat.--Rockchalk717 22:00, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

As much as possible, the use of color to distinguish things is frowned upon (see WP:COLOR). Red and black could also be the Bulls, which makes this all the more confusing since the Heat retired Jordan's number. It could also be misleading for someone like George Mikan who never wore purple and gold. –HTD 22:18, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Valid point. I just feel the numbers should be kept in the infobox. I know NBA project is separate from other sports, but it is common place for retired athletes to have their numbers listed. But this number debate can be handled after we solve what the purpose of this thread is and why I came here in the first place.--Rockchalk717 02:12, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

No colors. They look fine with b-r's formatting, but they'd look ridiculous in a Wikipedia infobox IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 11:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I know this is very late but I recently brought up the discussion to include career numbers on active NBA player's bios. With that being said my feedback from the discussion above is that career numbers for retired players should definitely be included in their infoboxes including numbers that they wore during any NBA game. This would include Michael Jordan's number 12 but would not include Jordan's number 9 jersey in which he wore while playing for Team USA.

Larry Bird's Who will finish second 3-Point contest challenge

There is some controversy regarding whether Bird issued the challenge of who would finish second to him at the inaugural 3-point shooting contest or when he was trying to threepeat. Please comment on how to handle this at Talk:Larry_Bird#Who_will_finish_second_3-Point_contest_challenge.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:08, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Head coaches needed to fill out navbox

I just created {{Baltimore Bullets (1944–54) coach navbox}}. Does anyone know who the head coaches were for the 1944–45, 1945–46, and 1946–47 seasons while the team competed in the American Basketball League? Jrcla2 (talk) 18:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I may be able to find this info in some off-line resources at home tonight. Seems like it should be easy to find, but I am sure you've exhausted the web's info. Rikster2 (talk) 12:30, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I couldn't find anything, which is weird considering this was a major franchise (for its day) and its ties to the NBA presumably would have made those head coaches easy to dig up. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Confirmed from several sources that Buddy Jeannette coached the team their last year in the ABL as a player/coach. Sounds like Ben Kramer was their first coach, but didn't last the season. Still looking ... Rikster2 (talk) 22:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

TfD involving NBA templates

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 June 27#NBA All-Star Game roster templates for the interested. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Reliable source

Does anyone here think Eurobasket.com could be considered a reliable source? Contrary to it's domain name, the website has absolutely no affiliaton to FIBA EuroBasket. The "About us" section in the website mention: Now the site is a group of 268 people from different countries, who provide information about all pro and semi-pro basketball around the World. However, I don't think this qualifies as news organizations, but more likely falls into user-generated website. I'm not really familiar with European basketball, but I personally think we shouldn't use any Eurobasket.com material as a reference for writing any articles. — MT (talk) 04:10, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

One area that Eurobasket is helpful is in confirming a player actually played with a team as they reproduce box scores that are usually in other languages. I think use as an RS should be limited, though. Rikster2 (talk) 14:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The only use of that website as far as Wikipedia is concerned is a career club history of many players. That's good enough for me if we're restricting it only for that use. It's really useful too for international club tournaments which don't have an English website as it is really accurate; I dunno if other people who want to use that website in this way, though. For scores of other national top flight leagues we can use their official league websites but I dunno if they keep archives. If you're using it as a source for game summaries, don't. –HTD 20:18, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Discsussion moved to the section below

Okay, thanks for the input. By the way, while we're here, what about the use of Eurobasket.com for Nik Stauskas' citizenship. This Eurobasket article mentioned that Stauskas has dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenships, but the information is contradicted by this article from TalkBasket.net. However, I'm not sure that talkbasket.net can be considered a reliable source either. In addition, on the comments section of that Eurobasket article, there is a comment claiming that he doesn't have Lithuanian citizenship, from a user named Peter Stauskas, which would happen to be the actual name of Nik's brother. I know that there is no way to verify whether it is an actual comment from his brother, but since there are no other reliable source that mentions Stauskas' citizenship situation other than this two website, I really think we should consider rewriting Stauskas' personal life section and avoid the mention of his dual citizenship until we can find a better source. Any thoughts? — MT (talk) 04:45, 29 June 2014 (UTC) Why don't you open a separate discussion on Stauskas citizenship so things don't get confusing here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:47, 29 June 2014 (UTC) Okay done, please continue the discussion about Stauskas on the section below. — MT (talk) 09:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, ESPN.com made reference to a report from Eurobasket.com here—Bagumba (talk) 07:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Notable?

Just stumbled across 2010–11 NBA player salaries. Seems like overkill to me, especially when there's no actual text discussing the salaries just a list of numbers. There's also an article for the most recent season. Thought I'd run it by here though instead of AfDing straight away. Jenks24 (talk) 10:00, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd say just AfD them. WP:NOTSTATS. — MT (talk) 14:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Now at AfD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2010–11 NBA player salaries. Jenks24 (talk) 06:32, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Should be a group AfD with 2013–14 NBA player salaries. Jweiss11 (talk) 13:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

"Regg" Williams?

Someone moved the page of the recent NBA player Reggie Williams from VMI to Regg Williams. Sounds as if he is known by that name in the Philippines. Should that stay? He has always been "Reggie" everywhere else. Rikster2 (talk) 12:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• Should definitely be moved back. According to PapaJeckloy, it is his "More popular name". I disagree. I have never come across anything that states "Regg" when referring to him. Even his PBA profile has "Reggie". DaHuzyBru (talk) 13:09, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
• Yeah, even the Filipino sources seem to call him Reggie. [5], [6], [7], etc. I'm barely finding anything to support "Regg Williams". In any case, "Reggie Williams" is clearly his most common name in the US, where he has spent the bulk of his career. Zagalejo^^^ 17:45, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
• I agree that it shouldn't be Regg. That move was made by someone who probably heard Reggie referred to Regg once or twice on television. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Moved back to Reggie Williams (basketball, born 1986). Jenks24 (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:African-American basketball players

Underbelly 50 has suddenly decided that every dark-skinned player should have Category:African-American basketball players without any source in support of such claim. It is my recollection that it has been decided that such edits will be reverted until they can be sourced. I am revisiting this discussion to confirm that consensus continues to be to revert such additions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

It's a general guideline at Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality that it needs to be sourced.—Bagumba (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

African-Americans comprised 76.3 percent of all NBA players.source: www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2013/2013_NBA_RGRC.pdf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_NBA nba players dont get asked are you african-american? how can sources be put when everybody knows whos an african american and who is not? the large amount of african american basketball players as stated means that the vast majority of the league is an african-american. reporters dont ask players are you black? are you white? because its not necassary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Underbelly 50 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I get what you're saying, but you should read Wikipedia:Verifiability policy and Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth essay. Here is an excerpt from it: Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. — MT (talk) 01:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Underbelly 50 continues to insist the categories should be handled based on his own beliefs rather than WP:RS These were at least some of the initial problematic edits. After I pointed him to this discussion, he continues to insist that he should be able to use categories as he sees fit. I don't want to get involved in a war with this guy. Can someone else get involved here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

According to what you are saying, all 76 percent of african-american basketball players in the nba should have this category removed from there wikipedia pages because there is no source to prove they are african-american. Lebron James, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade are not african-american because nobody can prove it. That's what you are saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Underbelly 50 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, without reliable proof of African descent, the categories should be removed. Verifiability is wikipedia's policy. The category can stay if there is a citation about his African ancestry in the article, for example: Hakeem Olajuwon, Ike Diogu, etc. — MT (talk) 14:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Adding categorization without proof could lead to a lot of innacurracies. Your edit on Klay Thompson is inaccurate, his father is Bahamian and his mother is Caucasian American, which means that he is, more accurately, Bahamian-American, not African-American unless you can proof that Mychal Thompson is Afro-Bahamian. — MT (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Someone removed the category african-american basketball players on Glenn Robinson III and Trey Burke's wikipedia pages. According to the people removing this category from there pages there is no proof they are african-american. So they are not african-american. They are white-american. If this is the case this category should be removed. As some of you have said "There is no proof" so although the NBA has 76 percent african-american basketball players, this is false because there is no proof. Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant and every single nba player is not african-american because there is no proof. If this category is not removed, then i will remove it from every page of every nba player. There is only 2 options to leave this category on the players or remove this category completely. And may as well remove every single african-american category on wikipedia because there is no proof. Either leave the catgeory on Robinson and Burkes page or delete the entire category and every single african-american category eg african-american musicians, african-american entertainers and so on. According to what one of you have said only people who where born in Africa or have parents born in africa are considered african-american. no one else beacuse there is no proof. I think TonyTheTiger has opened up a real debate here. What do you think TonyTheTiger ? all categories related to the african-american people such as baskteball players, entertainers, musicians, should be removed completely because there is no proof — Preceding unsigned comment added by Underbelly 50 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Once again, it's not me who decide that, you may want to bring the debate to Wikipedia talk:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality if you want. Tony and I merely just following wikipedia's policy. Anyway how could you decide someone's ancestry based on their physical appearances? Patrick Ewing is another example, he is, more accurately, Jamaican-American. Have considered that some of the 76% players may have Jamaican ancestry? — MT (talk) 23:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Once again, pleace read Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth and Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality thoroughly. — MT (talk) 23:50, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Nik Stauskas

Splitting the discussion from the section above:

Okay, thanks for the input. By the way, while we're here, what about the use of Eurobasket.com for Nik Stauskas' citizenship. This Eurobasket article mentioned that Stauskas has dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenships, but the information is contradicted by this article from TalkBasket.net. However, I'm not sure that talkbasket.net can be considered a reliable source either. In addition, on the comments section of that Eurobasket article, there is a comment claiming that he doesn't have Lithuanian citizenship, from a user named Peter Stauskas, which would happen to be the actual name of Nik's brother. I know that there is no way to verify whether it is an actual comment from his brother, but since there are no other reliable source that mentions Stauskas' citizenship situation other than this two website, I really think we should consider rewriting Stauskas' personal life section and avoid the mention of his dual citizenship until we can find a better source. Any thoughts? — MT (talk) 04:45, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Can you clarify that the first phrase in the sentence "He has dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenship, but played for Canada in international youth competitions." is the only content at issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:17, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

N.B. this is sourced by the following content in a WP:IC: " He has a dual citizenship: Canadian and Lithuanian. Despite Stauskas' Lithuanian passport, he currently plays for the Canadian U19 national team and is not eligible to play for the Lithuanian team."-Eurobasket--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:19, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my only concern is about the "dual Canadian and Lithuanian citizenship" in his Personal life section and also the mention of Canadian-Lithuanian in the lead and in the infobox. I notice that it was cited with Eurobasket.com source, but I believe that Eurobasket.com could not be considered as reliable source. They are not a news organization and their own description on "About us" section looks like a user-generated website or a self-published source, both doesn't qualify as reliable source. I tried to find a reliable source to replace the Eurobasket.com citations, but so far I'm unsuccessful in finding one. — MT (talk) 14:34, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Eurobasket can be useful for many things, but it's also pretty amateurish in a lot of ways. I wouldn't use it as a source for any citizenship claims. I don't know much about Talkbasket, but I don't think it's any less reliable than Eurobasket, and since the two sources are making contradictory claims, we shouldn't be saying that Stauskas has dual citizenship. Zagalejo^^^ 17:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

They're pretty good on providing standings and game results, but for any other matters, don't use them. Even for game summaries. –HTD 21:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

It appears you have the support to make the desired changes. I have no problem with your intentions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:48, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to Zagalejo for making the necessary adjustment. Anyway, as Stauskas' newfound popularity as lottery pick, I think we could've have a better source about his Lithuanian citizenship status in the near future. — MT (talk) 14:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Lithuanian nationality law has an interesting information that dual citizenship is rare. — MT (talk) 07:00, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Robert Morris (basketball)

Does anyone have an Ancestry.com account or something that can find the DOB and DOD for Robert Morris (basketball)? Jrcla2 (talk) 13:50, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Business situation of teams

Hello, I'm doing research, asked the same question in Formula 1 project, and how it said, ask the question here as well.

I would like to know about the business situation of the teams, for example, Charlotte Hornets and New Orleans Pelicans are, in business terms, the same company? Or just inherited the space from each other in the NBA? The Corporate personhood is the same? I do not know what the U.S. equivalent of the pt:CNPJ (ID number for companies), if anyone knows, could you tell, but I wonder if there is somewhere where query this data on the business situation of the times, some journalistic source eg qu make this coverage. As I said in another project, my intention is not to merge or break up articles here on en-Wikipedia, but only get subsidies to write fuller articles on Wikipedia in my language (Portuguese). Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 15:26, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The short answer is that they are two distinct franchises under different ownerships, but the teams are intertwined having both played under the name Hornets and in the city of Charlotte at different times. In the interest of improvement, perhaps you can point out anything in their respective articles that caused confusion to give the impression that they were the same company.—Bagumba (talk) 19:35, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, but what about the rest? Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 05:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I wanna know about this too. Do franchises have legal personality? –HTD 12:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that the term franchise isn't actually used properly when it comes to sports. A franchise isn't actually an entity, its just the right to have a team in the league. The actual legal entity is the corporation/person that has the franchise. And corporations of course have corporate personhood. However, colloquially sports fans/writers talk about franchises like they are an entity or a thing. The Charlotte Hornets is a bit of a complicated situation. The franchise remained the same because one corporation sold the franchise rights to another corporation. So to answer the original question, they are the same franchise but different companies. -DJSasso (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The articles have to be more clear on this. Is a change of ownership a change of "the entity as a team/franchise"? For example, I've read the Syracuse Nationals/Philadelphia 76ers change. Did the "Central NY basketball club" (the corporation) folded when it sold its rights ("the franchise") to "the Philadelphia basketball club"? What if the change of ownership didn't involve changing of cities?

Also, would the actual companies owning the franchises would be notable? –HTD 16:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Well I assume it probably depends on the structure of that company. For example the company that owns the Toronto Raptors also owns the Toronto Maple Leafs, and the Toronto FC. If they sold just the Raptors then the company would go on existing, but if they just owned the Raptors it would depends on if they sold the whole corporation or not. In most cases these details are probably too detailed to matter for an article here. As for would the companies be notable themselves, it probably again depends on the situation, I am guessing in most cities they could get alot of local coverage about the companies. -DJSasso (talk) 18:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

DJSasso there is a confusion that was also made in the Project F-1. There is a difference between a company to have multiple teams (each team - Toronto FC, ​​Toronto Raptors and Toronto Maple Leafs - being a department / brand of that company) and a business group (holding) to have three separate companies, each one with a company branch. How does it work in this case? Where can I get references on this? Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 23:52, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Restricted free agents?

Should restricted NBA free agents be listed as members of the team they are still linked to or as current free agents? See Avery Bradley for as an example.--TM 17:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

If they are free agents they are no longer affiliated with a team.—Bagumba (talk) 04:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Bagumba is wise. There is no such thing as "a professional basketball player who is a free agent in the National Basketball Association (NBA)." The player is either (1) a player under contract with a team that is a member of the NBA, or (b) a free agent. When a player is a free agent, he is not a member of the NBA, WNBA, CBA, ABA, FBI, FDIC, NFL or MLB; he is a free agent until he actually has a real contract with a real team in a real league. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 05:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

He could be a member of AAA or AARP though. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, Jweiss is a wise ass. See the difference? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:14, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Isaiah Austin in Template:2014 NBA Draft?

Should we include Isaiah Austin in Template:2014 NBA Draft? Martin tamb just removed it Joeykai had added it and Jrcla2 had helped format it.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:42, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm not against his inclusion in the Template, though I suggest putting him after the second round (because it's an unofficial selection, therefore should not be ranked between first and second round) and adding a footnote that his selection is not official. However, I'm against both his inclusion on the draft board and the mention of ceremonial selection on his infobox (including the mention of ceremonial pick on Career highlights and awards). — MT (talk) 14:40, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Great story, but shouldn't have trivial details as part of any navbox.—Bagumba (talk) 04:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

LeBron James article is a mess

LeBron James article got full protected, and is a conflicting mess of whether his going to Cleveland is a done deal or pending. Please help reach consensus at Talk:LeBron_James#Change_to_Cleveland so this can be written consistently—one way or another.—Bagumba (talk) 22:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Reporting player signings

This happens a couple times a year in every sports league (FA period, trade deadline): when and how should a signing/trade be written in Wikipedia? There's Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports/Handling sports transactions, but I'm seeing articles like this version of LeBron James that puts "(Pending Contract)" in the infobox along with the alleged team that signed him. And is an agent saying a deal is done sufficient, such as Jordan Hill [8]? I'd be OK with an agent as a reliable source for a signing, but think "pending contract" in an infobox or lead is misleading and not in the spirit of WP:BLP saying "We must get the article right." Add attributed statements regarding a specific report from a specific news source, but it shouldn't give the impression that a deal is complete, nor give it undue weight in an infobox or lead.—Bagumba (talk) 23:37, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

• Bagumba, I think the safe bet is to wait until a reliable source (i.e. not some sports gossip blog) reports a contract has actually been signed by both team and player. Wikipedia is not a newspaper or a blog; it's an encyclopedia. We're not supposed to report it first, but we are supposed to record it accurately. I also gently remind everyone of the requirements of WP:BLP; no information should be inserted into the biography of a living person unless it is verified by a reliable source per WP:RS; unverified statements in a BLP are subject to immediate removal. In your scenario, an agent being quoted as saying "it's a done deal, but the contract hasn't been signed" can be translated as "I think they're going to sign, but they haven't yet." That's a reliable source for saying there's no contract, and the player is not yet part of the team. We need to gently remind IPs and newbies of our procedures per WP:V, WP:RS and WP:BLP. That's my two cents worth. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:54, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The trick part with Hill, which I opened discussion at Talk:Jordan_Hill_(basketball)#Signing_with_Lakers, is that the tweet says is definitive that there is an agreement, but that does not mean the dotted line is signed yet. http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24616536/agent-jordan-hill-agrees-to-2-year-18-million-deal-with-lakers adds "... perhaps they will wait on making these signings official until he makes his decision." I guess that's a reason to avoid tweets, since they are meant to provide breaking news without detailing all the caveats of an article or even a blog.—Bagumba (talk) 00:04, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Summer League season

Undrafted players are being signed to Summer League rosters. We have always taken the stance that we don't convert the infoboxes (with "NBA" and the team) and that we don't add the team to the club history. I just reverted edits for two Lakers' summer league players DeAndre Kane and LaQuinton Ross. I assume more of these edits will follow, as will infobox awards for "Summer League MVP" when those are named. As a reminder, we have had extensive discussion about Summer League MVP and these do not go in the infobox highlights section. Rikster2 (talk) 15:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Awards were just handed out so expect players like Glen Rice, Jr. (MVP), Doug McDermott (1st team All-Summer League), etc. to be updated a jillion times. Rikster2 (talk) 16:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Pierre Jackson

A user is insisting on adding the 76ers as his current team, despite not being under contract (and probably won't be signed since he just suffered a serious injury). I'm at my three revert limit so I am now just correcting factual errors and deleting copyrighted images, but thought I'd see if any third parties want to take a look and see if I am being unreasonable. Rikster2 (talk) 20:03, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree on not updating infobox. Previously at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_22#Remind_me_again_what_we_do_with_Summer_League_signings.3F, it was decided not to list summer league teams in the infobox. Note for someone like Pierre Jackson, he is not listed at http://www.nba.com/sixers/roster/ event though he is at http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2014/teams/sixers/#roster. There is not long-term notability in playing in the summer league. At most, I would compromise a brief mention in the body if someone is adamant.—Bagumba (talk) 19:58, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The infobox should be updated, he has stated using his official Instagram page, that he will be joining the 76ers for the 2014-15 Season. ESPN, who has been noted by multiple users as a reliable source before, includes him. He was at the rookie introduction press conference, along with Jerami Grant, KJ McDaniels, and Jordan McRae. I'm not saying he's on the team because he's on the summer league roster. I'm just saying he's on the team. He has announced it. Troy Daniels announced via Instagram that he was re-signing with the Rockets. So did Greg Smith when he went to the Mavericks. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)

Without having links to the sources you are referencing, it it obvious there is inaccuracy with conflicting sources. I don't see a convincing argument to override the NBA/76ers website in this case, when they would seemingly be a better authority on whether a contract has been completed. Wikipedia editing policy states that "... on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information."—Bagumba (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

For what it is worth Dario Šarić, whose NBA rights the Sixers also hold, was at the same press conference referenced with Grant, McDaniels and McRae and it is well documented that he isn't joining the team for at least two years. Rikster2 (talk) 21:31, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/roster/_/name/phi/philadelphia-76ers His instagram account, @pappyjackk What more do you need? The sources are right here. An official report from the NBA isn't needed in this case. Please, understand what I'm saying here. I know Saric isn't going to be on the team, but that's not the case here. Come on! I know for a fact I'm right and I'm not backing down on this. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)

• I think generally, when a player played in the NBA the prior season, when he signs with a new team we assume he is at the NBA level and on the team. When a player spent the prior season at the D-League level, I would assume they have acquired his rights. I would be surprised if he were not on the 18-man training camp roster if he is healthy, which is about what his claim is at this point. However, whether he makes the 15-man roster when he is healthy is another matter.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • P.S. what is the healing duration for a ruptured achilles. Is it more than 10 weeks?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

My guess is the Sixers acquired his rights with an intent to sign him if he had a good Summer League. His injury puts his ultimate signing into serious question. He is out long-term, possibly for the entire season. The 76ers may choose to sign him to keep his rights, but they'd be doing so knowing they are using cap space for a (somewhat) fringe player who they may not see for a year. I don't think this should be anticipated. There is no doubt in my mind he isn't signed right now beyond a summer league deal and I think anyone claiming otherwise needs to produce a reliable source that says he is signed for the upcoming season. Rikster2 (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Fine, you guys keep your stupid Summer League rules. That's not what I'm saying. I gave you two very, very reliable sources and you just threw them out the window. I'm telling you, he's on the team, but no, because even though he was at the press conference and he confirmed it through his Instagram account, you guys are right. He isn't on the team. Can't believe this. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)

I find it strange that the 76ers team website does not have him on his roster if he was in fact on their team. And with all the coverage the NBA gets, no reliable source has written an article on his signing, and original research on Instagram photo captions is the best argument that he is signed.—Bagumba (talk) 08:16, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Look at the pictures yourself. It's there. He's on ESPN's 76ers Roster. I can't believe this. miamiheat631 talk 15, July 2014 15:51 (UTC)

Yep, he's in that picture with Dario Šarić. I found this USA Today article when he ruptured his Achilles. Quote: "The Pelicans traded the 22-year-old back to the Sixers during last month's draft in exchange for Louisville point guard Russ Smith, who was taken with the 47th pick. His contract is not guaranteed." If you get traded and your contract is not guaranteed, it means that you have to make the roster. Jackson has not made the roster. ESPN is wrong a LOT, and is not the primary source of who is and isn't on the team - the 76ers are. Frankly, I can't believe this either. You are totally off the reservation here. Rikster2 (talk) 12:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't know every single little detail had to come from the official 100% accurate source. He has stated, himself, that he will be on the team. And I know the Saric stuff. That's not what I'm talking about!!! The 76ers list Saric on their roster too, see, they're wrong as well. If his contract is not guaranteed, that means he has a contract, with the team! I'm at a loss for words here, I am right. That's all I have to say. miamiheat631 talk 16, July 2014 10:18(UTC)

As I quoted from WP:EP earlier: "... on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information." Understand that Wikipedia operates on consensus, and might not be the right site for everyone. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

• At some point in the future when each NBA team has its own D-League affiliate, being on a summer league roster may mean more in terms of being affiliated with a specific team. Right now being on a summer league roster is like being on an NBA team's temporary 25- or 30-man roster. Eventually, each team is only going to invite 18 players to training camp from which they will choose a 15-man roster (of which only 13 dress on any given day). The 18 players may or may not have been affiliated with that team during the summer league. In the case of Jackson, I think prior to his injury he was sort of unofficially guaranteed a training camp invite. However, he has not officially made an NBA roster.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Sure, in the future things might change, but I would say that being on a team's Summer league roster is more analogous to being granted a tryout. This is why many players suit up for 2 different teams in the 2 leagues - they are trying to maximize their options. Summer league teams usually have 3-5 players who are guaranteed contracts (young returning players and 1st round draft picks) and 7-9 guys with no commitment in the upcoming season - 2nd round picks and free agents. Jackson is a player for whom the Sixers own his rights, but they have no obligation to sign him and the injury didn't drive that. In no way does being on the Summer league team or holding rights equate to being on the team for the upcoming season. Rikster2 (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
    • • I am not connoting any permanence or significance to a summer league affiliation. Yes it is like a tryout. When I said temporary 25- or 30-man roster, I meant it is like baseball's spring training. If he was actually injured during a summer league game for a team, he may have some sort of rights to rehab and trainer services with the team. So I won't say he is unaffiliated. It is not like he was injured in a barroom brawl or a pick-up game. He is not on the team for the purposes of wikipedia, however.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Come on, I'm not associating anything with Summer League, I haven't brought it up. He's on the roster, plain and simple. Not every single detail needs to come from an official 100% accurate source. I'm done here, but I know for a fact I'm right. miamiheat631 talk 16, July 2014 5:17 (UTC)
      • Who was talking to you? I was responding to Tony. For a guy who has said repeatedly you're done, you sure don't seem done. Rikster2 (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
      • "Not every single detail needs to come from an official 100% accurate source." ← Yeah, it does. You should have unloaded the gun before pointing it at your feet. Jrcla2 (talk) 14:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Also shouldn't the username be changed to "clevelandcavaliers631"? ;) Jrcla2 (talk) 14:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
          • Not really, I'm a Heat fan. That's just showing some major ignorance. Not everyone liked the Heat because of LeBron. miamiheat631 talk 20, July 2014 7:26 (UTC)
            • It was a joke, lighten up. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:37, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

He was signed!! I told you guys I was right. Oh how it feels so good! miamiheat631 talk 6:09 24, July 2014 (UTC)

Given that he was signed today (reportedly) - you weren't right. The Sixers chose to sign him to keep his rights as I said earlier in this section could happen (but hadn't at that time). Technically, the deal hasn't been announced by the team yet, but I won't revert the edits at this point. Rikster2 (talk) 23:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@Miamiheat631: Dude, you have been and still are incorrect. "He was signed" - well no. We have had this discussion about the Novak-Garrett trade. It's not a done deal until the team announces it. Still until today, he has not actually been announced by the Sixers. After all this time, the Sixers have stated nothing about Pierre Jackson and is still not listed on their roster. His reported signing is not listed here or here. So no, you are not "right". DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Ok fine, but just search "Pierre Jackson" on Google News. I guess not any single one of those articles matter since they don't come from the official website. Then why do they write them? I don't know. If he gets signed today, every single word in this section becomes irrelevant because I am and always have been right. miamiheat631 talk 8:17 25, July 2014 (UTC)

Even @Rikster2: said he wouldn't revert the edits. miamiheat631 talk 8:17 25, July 2014 (UTC)

Anyone here to right great wrongs is only going to be frustrated when their unverifiable, breaking news is reverted. Seriously, they'd be better off with their own blog or twitter acct where nobody else can edit.—Bagumba (talk) 07:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, more sources on signing: Sixers sign injured Pierre Jackson to partially guaranteed deal Philly.com "Official. Lost for words!" Jackson's twitter. This is one of the slowest I've seen for an official announcement to come out. I think it's usually best to wait for them, but at this point I'd be OK with an exception with these fairly reliable source. I personally won't be adding or reverting anything until an official announcement.—Bagumba (talk) 20:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

This signing is just getting stupid. These sources that claim that the signing is official are just not reliable. With this, "According to Mark Deeks of Shamsports.com, the 76ers have officially signed injured guard Pierre Jackson." What gets me still is the "according to". These articles are still getting their information from independent sources – and bloody twitter and instagram. Who knows, he may not be officially announced until the training camp invites are confirmed i.e. late September. Either way, it's still technically incorrect to add the 76ers to his infobox etc. DaHuzyBru (talk) 11:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Hall of Famers link in team templates

I'm starting a consensus on whether or not Basketball Hall of Famers should be linked into the template such as in this template. Also, if an agreement is made on this, should it not be grouped under the existing "Franchise" category instead of a standalone category? Robert4565 (talk) 17:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this thread. I was confused by your edit to Template:New York Knicks, which started a new format by adding link to a section in an existing article, New York Knicks#Basketball_Hall_of_Famers, not a link to a unique article. I'm not a fan of cluttering navboxes with links to sections in articles that are already in the naxbox.—Bagumba (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Your first example of the Template:Chicago Bulls illustrates the folly of blindly listing all HOFers that have played for a team: Thurmond, Gervin, Parish, and Gilmore were at the twilight of their careers, playing only a few years for the team with minimal impact to the franchise's history. Retired numbers are more meaningful to a franchise's history. Each team's retired numbers is probably notable enough for a standalone list per WP:LISTN, and that list should be linked to the team navbox, and not each individual player.—Bagumba (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)