Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 107

Archive 100

←

Archive 105

Archive 106

Archive 107

Archive 108

Archive 109

Archive 110

Archives Table of Contents

Problems with Article: Fach

Problems Discussion

There's a ton of problems with this page...

• Lack of information (please see the talk page on this article with my comment dated the same as this one).
• Lack of cited sources.
  • I am not sure, I know I don't have any books myself and the ones for this subject are not easy to find nor is the information easy to find on-line, what with its highly esoteric nature.
• Lack of clarity.
  • This I am also unsure of, I understand the page because I already understand the information presented in it, but I don't see how anyone that is not a professional, even a novice or amateur, could understand it. It does not explain what c' means when it uses that, I think the ranges should be given in the form of C4 - C6 (as an example) rather than "middle C to the C two octaves above C). Another example of this lack of clarity is when it says things such as "the B two octaves above middle C). Well, most users would probably think, if C4 is middle C, I go up two octaves from there (C6), and then go up to B (B6). However, the B two octaves above middle C is B5 (it's not two octaves above, it's one-half step less than a perfect octave).
  • Another problem I have with the clarity is that, should it even be made more clear? I've seen many times where people waste my (and other's) time because they've self-analysed themselves incorrectly and claimed to be a vocal type that they weren't (the amateur ring is plagued with this crap).
  • I am sure of one thing, it needs to be included in the beginning of the article, a very VERY short definition of what exactly timbre and tessitura are with a very short explanation of why falsetto and vocal fry ranges do not "count" when classifying a vocalists vocal range.

I can help with a lot of the above problems, the only issue is that I have no citable resources. I figured I could use this section of this talk page to make some suggestions for each problem and see how the community feels about it. Sardonicus (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Not that I've clapped eyes on the book for many years, but I always assumed this article had been largely lifted from Anthony Legge's The Art of Auditioning almost-instinct 21:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

While that is quite possible, I down own or have ever read that book so I couldn't say, however if it was lifted, I think a lot got left behind. Sardonicus (talk) 09:39, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Individual Fach Reworking

So, I thought of a better way of formatting the page. What do you guys think about this for the Fächer sections...

Fach

Italian equivalent and English translation (I can help with that)

Range: (in the format of C4 - B6, for example)

Tessitura:

Timbre:

I think that would make it much better and more clear, because I think I saw somewhere that a lot of people were confused of how two different Fach could have the same vocal range. Any thoughts? Sardonicus (talk) 09:39, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

General Page Reworking

The pages for tessitura and timbre aren't all that well written either for the common person, so for the general page, I would suggest start of the first section basically the same as it already is, except maybe take out some of the redundancy, then also add into it that vocal range is only the modal range of the singer and does not include anything in the vocal fry, falsetto, and whistle registers because singing in the other registers requires changing your vocal chords and how they vibrate to create the sound, which often kills or dampens both timbre and tessitura, which are essential to the German Fächer classification system. However, do it keeping things more simple and staying away from using too much esoteric terminology, but not to go TOO layman with it at the same time. What I mean to say it, use the proper term (like tessitura) through the whole page, but on its first instance, explain what it is using simple common language, but continue to use the term tessitura through the rest of the page. I think a good way of explaining these would be:

• Modal Voice - the normal singing range where a person can most easily and readily sing and use different vocal techniques.
• Tessitura - a combination of the modal range of the person and the techniques that can be done by them in that range.
• Timbre - descriptive style of vocals (I.E. dark, sad, happy, comedic, brave, mature, childish....)

Obviously that's breaking it down really simple but, I think that would make it much cleaner, more organized, and easier for the layman to understand. I mean really, is ANYONE who is going to be doing choir and/or opera/classical vocal singing be needing to look at this page? No, I think most people who come across it would be beginners in classic vocals followed by amateur vocalists. Sardonicus (talk) 09:39, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Sardonicus, I do not think you have a propper understanding of these terms. You seem to be defining tessitura and vocal range in relation to vocal registration and vocal technique which I don't think is necessary or accurate.

First, the modal register is defined not by the ease of which it can be utilized or by the application of any particular vocal technique but by a certain phonatory process (i.e. what is physically happening in the larynx). Also, registers occur naturally and are not "techniques". Remember, when you talk you are using your modal voice not just when you sing. Nobody had to teach you a technique to use your vocal chords to talk as a young child; you just started talking. Further, ease of use is also not part of the modal registers definition. Some writers on singing have argued that singing in falsetto is actually easier than singing in the modal voice. Also, every singer is going to have certain pitch areas in their modal register which causes difficulties (hence why singing lessons are necessary). These challenge areas in the modal register vary from singer to singer; with some singers struggling more in the upper range, some singers struggling in the lower range, and others experiencing problematic "vocal breaks" in the middle. This brings us to vocal technique which, while playing a major part in singing properly, has no baring on the definition of the term 'modal register'. A person can sing/phonate in the modal register naturally, whether they have had singing lessons or not.

Second, I would not define vocal range as simply the range of the modal register. Vocal range should be defined as the pitch range that a singer can employ in performance; reguardless of the register used. The modal register is not the only register employed in performance. Coloratura sopranos for example, regularly employ whistle register in performances for very high notes in arias such as 'The Bell Song' in Lakme and Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen from The Magic Flute. Indeed, facility in the whistle register is a necessity for those wanting to perform the coloratura soprano literature. Also, there are teachers/writers on singing who advocate a theory of "blended registers" which may mix modal and falsetto/whistle in the upper range for performance. There are many other theories/opinions on registration, many of them conflicting, so I would strongly urge you to not advocate defining vocal range in relation to registration.

Third, tessitura is simply the pitch area in which a singer is most comfortable singing and the pitch area in which the performer sounds the best. This may not necessarily be limited to the 'modal register' as there are singers, i.e. countertenors, who make a living singing entirely in falsetto. Also, as stated above, there is the "blended registers' theory which would go against defining tessitura in relation to just the modal register.

Finally, timbre is simply defined as the characteristic quality of the voice (i.e. you hear the voice, no matter in what song, and can immediately identify what kind of voice is singing). Words like sad, happy, comedic, brave, mature, childish, etc. are not good descriptive words for a singers' timbre as those are expressive qualities which any singer can communicate reguardless of timbre. Writers on singing more often use words like "lyric", "dramatic", "light", "dark", "heavy", "bright", etc. to describe the timbre of various voices.

I hope these comments are helpful, and I wish you well on improving the article. It seems to me, however, that you are approaching this revision based on your own knowledge/assumptions about the concepts rather than actual published sources. I would suggest that you make no more suggested changes until you have consulted multiple published books on singing. Best.4meter4 (talk) 05:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

First, I haven't made any changes. Second, I suggested the wordage be changed for the common person to best be able to understand it, not for somebody actually knowledgeable in the subject. I know that the definitions I gave were far from accurate, but because of the definitions already available, those not in the singing realm and amateurs often get things wrong and classify things wrong because they don't understand them. If you give them a very under-done and highly simplistic definition, they won't get as much wrong as they'll only be defining things that they feel safe in defining under the definition. The common person doesn't understand what "lyric" or "dramatic" or "light" is when referenced to vocals, hence the ones I gave. Furthermore, non-vocalists don't understand the difference between a falsetto register and the vocals done by say, King Diamond, and use falsetto colloquially for any unnaturally high-pitched vocals created by using a technique rather than natural singing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anathematized one (talk • contribs) 07:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I never said you did make any changes; I said "suggested changes". Also, I disagree that the article should be simplified to the point of inaccuracy. Our goal should be to make the technical language comprehensible to the reader while still maintaining the content's integrity. To some extent, a specialized topic like "fach" will be incomprehensible to those unfamiliar with opera, just like an article on the barrel cortex will have some content difficult to understand by someone who is not a medical professional or neuroscientist. I am not exactly sure why Kind Diamond was brought up in this discussion at all as the "fach" system has nothing to do with heavy metal.4meter4 (talk) 15:24, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Suggestion Future discussion about changes/overhauls to the article should take place at Talk:Fach with a permalink back to this section for reference. Article talk pages are really the best place to document such discussions and are visible to a wider variety of editors. Voceditenore (talk) 07:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

A point well taken, but I'll mention here that I've been gathering a few stray thoughts on my Sandbox page. A curious thing is that the term "Fach" is not used in German reference works... Sparafucil (talk) 13:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikibreak for Scarabocchio

After having helped kickstart a conversation about new work on the Opera Project, I am really very sorry to have to take a Wikibreak of 2-6 months because of serious illness in the family. Apologies, and regrets. Scarabocchio (talk) 21:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm so sorry to hear this! Best wishes for a good recovery and your speedy return. Voceditenore (talk) 08:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thinking of you and the family, best wishes, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

template foreign characters

Deleted. Phew!!!--Smerus (talk) 13:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The so-called Moonlight Sonata

Thank you!!! If you want to get into another heated debate (not opera, but by now operatic), look at Facts and myths and then further up, where 2:1 is called a consensus, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Resolved! Thanks to Eusebius, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Drama continued, reverted, open again. If you have not have voted yet, do so, but don't if you are an admin, because then you no longer qualify to close it ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Now it rests, looks solved after three acts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Aaargh!! It seems that someone is a bad loser!. However as the comments all seem to support deletion I am not losing too much sleep at present - but do keep a watch on it.--Smerus (talk) 15:18, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I thought you talked about the sonata, it did fit well, same there, watch it, I mean. Thanks to Voceditenore: the picture of the title page (SONATA quasi una FANTASIA, Luigi van Beethoven) really made the difference - after endless talk - to be visually impressed and convinced! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:46, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Free pre-1923 music journals on jstor.org

I'll add this to WikiProject Opera/Online research, but just a heads-up that jstor.org is now making their pre-1923 journal content available without subscription. There's more about it here. They're rolling out the free content gradually. For now the following are available in areas of interest to the OP:

• The Musical Quarterly 1915-1922
• The Musical Times 1844-1869
• Music Educators Journal 1914-1922

The list of all journals currently available is here. – Voceditenore (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Translator of opera libretti for deletion

Amanda Holden (writer), --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

AfD closed as Speedy Keep. --GuillaumeTell 17:04, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Project's stale subpages

Housekeeping: I noticed these subpages of the Opera Project:

• March 2010: (big) Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Cleanup listing (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• March 2008: Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/SatyrBot maintenance/Cleanup (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• March 2008: Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/SatyrBot maintenance/Expert attention (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I suspect they serve no longer any useful function and should be deleted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree. They're completely out of date and the bots that once generated them are defunct. The three lists have long been superceded by this tool, linked from the OP main page. If no one objects, I'll put a {{Db-g6}} + rationale on them Voceditenore (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The following can also be deleted:

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/CanYouHelp? (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (superceded by the CYH section on the OP main page and not linked to by OP project pages)
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/to do full list (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)(redirect to Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Cleanup listing above)

Voceditenore (talk) 08:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• Since no one has objected, I'm going to ask an admin to delete all of the above. Voceditenore (talk) 15:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Poofff - they've all turned red. Many thanks to Antandrus :) Voceditenore (talk) 15:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Mario Frangoulis in scope?

Is Mario Frangoulis in the scope of the Opera Project? I propose he's not. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd agree - no sign (that I noticed) of performing in operas, as against music theatre pieces. --GuillaumeTell 00:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• not only that but he should be removed from Category:Greek opera singers--Smerus (talk) 06:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

• I've been bold and removed the cat and changed the project banner to WikiProject Musical Theatre. The closest he's ever come to appearing in an opera house was La Scala, but that was for West Side Story. Really drecky article to boot, but that's no longer our concern. Voceditenore (talk) 07:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Wagner Dream - help!

Help please - I've got into a hell of a mess trying to italicise the title of this article - how on earth does one do it? Couldn't find anything in the WP:Opera guidelines- but maybe I was just panicking.......--Smerus (talk) 08:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

You need to lodge a requested move (uncontroversial, I suppose), and then place the Template:Italic title in the article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

PS: Italics for article titles is covered at WP:ITALICTITLE, part of WP:TITLE. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this, sorted now I think.--Smerus (talk) 13:47, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Update: I've now added "how to" info at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Article titles. Voceditenore (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Problems with Article: Fach

Discussion here has been archived. Further discussion belongs on Talk:Fach. See also User:Sparafucil/Sandbox. – Voceditenore (talk) 10:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Tchaikovsky Featured Article Review proposal

See here - comments welcome.--Smerus (talk) 21:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Monteverdi's lost operas and more

User:Brianboulton has put this article up for peer review with the intent of taking it to FA. Input at Wikipedia:Peer review/Monteverdi's lost operas/archive1 would be helpful to him in this endeavor.4meter4 (talk) 23:55, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

This article in now at FA review. Please feel free to comment at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Monteverdi's lost operas/archive1.4meter4 (talk) 12:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Promoted, more fine work from Brian, the best OP member we never had ;-). I've added it to the Portal:Opera rotation, as well as Royal Opera, London, which has also been promoted to FA (many thanks to everyone, especially Tim Riley), and Doctor Ox's Experiment, which is now a GA (thanks to Peter Cohen). Voceditenore (talk) 08:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

'Jewry in Music' (plug)

For anyone who is interested.....I will be giving a talk on my recently-published book Jewry in Music: Entry to the Profession from the Enlightenment to Richard Wagner (Cambridge University Press) as part of the event series of the Institute of Jewish Studies, at the Gustave Tuck Lecture Theatre, University College London, at 18.45 on 22nd February. Reception from 18.15. Entry free, voluntary donation if you like to the IJS. Contact me if you want further details - David Conway aka--Smerus (talk) 15:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Typo in the date? 22 January was last week. ;-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Doh!! corrected - :-} --Smerus (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

February CoM and OoM

We never got around to the revamping discussions and February 1st looms. I'm going to make some quick suggestions, based on the idea of choosing a composer and an opera + relevant satellite articles. Any other suggestions welcome! Then I think we need to work out how we take these X of the Month sections forward and/or revamp so we don't find ourselves in the same position next month. Voceditenore (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Composer of the Month

This year marks the 250th birthday of Giuseppe Nicolini. His bio article is just a stub, and we have no articles on any of his 45 operas, which although now forgotten, were very popular in their day in both Italy and Austria. His opera Carlo Magna was expressly written for the castrato Giovanni Velluti. Giacomo David created the title role in his Bruto. The latter opera premiered at the Teatro Sant'Agostino, the first public theatre in Genoa and the site of many opera premieres. Voceditenore (talk) 17:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Opera of the Month

This month marks the 150th anniversary of the premiere of Gounod's La reine de Saba. The article isn't much more than a stub. We also need an article on Pauline Guéymard-Lauters who created the title role. Several images of her on Commons.

February also marks the 100th anniversary of the premiere of Massenet's Roma, again not much more than stub. The article on its librettist Henri Caïn is a short stub, poorly referenced and consisting mainly of a list of his works, and we lack an article on Pierre Clauzure who created the role of Lucius Cornélius (and also sang in the premiere of Massenet's Cléopâtre). Voceditenore (talk) 16:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

(Just by the way to put in an early marker for March, which will see the 150th anniversary of the death of Fromental Halévy, many of whose works don't have articles yet. The main article is also rather weak).--Smerus (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

March CoM

Apropos of Smerus' suggestion above, I think Fromental Halévy would be an excellent choice. It would be a good idea to start planning what we want to do for this and next month's OoM now. Voceditenore (talk) 18:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

March OoM

Suggestions please. This page is useful for commemorative dates. Voceditenore (talk) 18:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

• Suggestion 1 This month marks the 200th anniversary of Rossini's Ciro in Babilonia, a stub needing considerable expansion. We also lack articles on Elisabetta Manfredini-Guarmani who created the role of Almira (as well as two other roles in Rossini operas) and celebrated tenor and singing teacher Eliodoro Bianchi who created the role of Baldassare. Ciro has been termed an azione sacra. This genre could probably use its own article (currently a redirect to List of opera genres) where the information is somewhat misleading—they weren't only performed in Vienna, and their time period extended beyond the early 18th century. There is also the related genre azione sepolcrale (or sepolcro). Possible "starter" sources here and here. Voceditenore (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Did you know that several operas are blackface minstrel shows?

I just removed Category:Blackface minstrel shows and films from The Emperor Jones (opera). I then discovered List of entertainers who performed in blackface which had included opera singers who had sung Otello or any other black or putatively black character, e.g. Aida. Compare to the actual article blackface, which is actually quite well written. Geesh! Voceditenore (talk) 12:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This is getting absurd, I agree. (I need to go on that break I've announced and will finally get round to doing so from tomorrow - I won't miss stuff like this!). --Folantin (talk) 18:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The saga continues. ;-) Voceditenore (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Hell's Bells! --GuillaumeTell 19:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Leoncavallo - Ruggiero vs. Ruggero

Just a heads-up that an editor has moved the article from Ruggero to Ruggiero Leoncavallo. I have no real objections to this as both spellings appear in various reliable sources. I referenced the Ruggiero spelling to the most recent and comprehensive work on Leoncavallo as well as mentioning in the footnote that his first name is also spelled as Ruggero in many sources. Actually, it's also spelled as Ruggero on his tombstone [1], which is a bit of a problem. It's possible that later in his life, it was switched to a more modern/standard spelling.

The editor has changed the spelling in all the associated articles and the composer navbox. [2] So at least it's consistent. The only problem is that Category:Operas by Ruggero Leoncavallo is now empty and all his opera articles now carry the non-existent Category:Operas by Ruggiero Leoncavallo. I'm not super au fait with cats. Is it OK to just move the old cat to the new one? Or does it need to go through Wikipedia:Categories for discussion? Also should we perhaps make the alternate spelling explcit in the lead? Example:

Ruggiero (or Ruggero) Leoncavallo (Italian pronunciation: [rudˈdʒɛːro leoŋkaˈvallo]; 23 April 1857 – 9 August 1919) was an opera composer ...

Voceditenore (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• Update: The editor has now applied for a speedy rename Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy. Voceditenore (talk) 18:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Since much of the existing literature uses "Ruggero", I agree the alternative spelling should be in the lead, otherwise readers may not realize they should use both spellings when searching. As an aside, I would like to comment that the editor who made these changes argues that only one name is "correct", the one on the birth certificate. I don't believe that conforms to Wikipedia policy. If a different spelling is more commonly used, it could easily be the preferred name for the article title. In this case, I think either spelling would qualify, and we can leave it as "Ruggiero". --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It was Voceditenore who brought up the birth certificate. My reason for moving the article was that the definitive biography uses Ruggiero throughout. No one knows more about Leoncavallo than Konrad Dryden, so if he says it's Ruggiero it must be true. Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the current state of scholarship. All those sources using Ruggero are no longer relevant, because more recent scholarship has concluded that they were wrong.

If Ruggero is to remain in the lede, it must be clearly marked as at odds with the current state of scholarship. Pronuncia (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, no. The current article in the New Grove has Ruggero, and Ruggero only, in both the title and the text. It makes no mention of "Ruggiero" as an alternate spelling, which is curious, since that is the standard editorial practice for Grove. Its bibliography is long and significant, including items such as: J. Maehder and L. Guiot, eds.: Ruggero Leoncavallo nel suo tempo (Milan, 1993); L. Guiot and J. Maehder, eds.: Letteratura, musica e teatro al tempo di Ruggero Leoncavallo (Milan, 1995); M. Sansone: ‘The “verismo” of Ruggero Leoncavallo: a source study of “Pagliacci”’, ML, lxx (1989), 342–62; T. Lerario: "Ruggero Leoncavallo e il soggetto dei Pagliacci", Chigiana xxvi–xxvii, new ser. viii (1971), 115–22; and that's only going back to 1971. A few items before that have "Ruggiero". At the very least both spellings must be in the lede. Antandrus (talk) 22:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

And one other thing: from the article in the 1980 New Grove by William Ashbrook, the section on his life begins with this bald assertion: "His christian name is properly Ruggero, not, as often given, 'Ruggiero'". Antandrus (talk) 22:05, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully the omniscient Dryden has been helpful and provided the justification for his usage? almost-instinct 22:43, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly what I was wondering -- the book is unavailable to preview, except for a snippet stating what was on the birth certificate (Ruggiero). Looking more carefully at the Grove bibliography, for some reason he's usually "Ruggiero" up to 1949, and then every single mention of his name in a title after that date is as "Ruggero". Nicolas Slonimsky's massive Baker's Biographical Dictionary also gives "Ruggero" (1993). Antandrus (talk) 23:38, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Sadie, Stanley (ed) (1992). The New Grove Dictionary of Opera. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-522186-2. {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help) has Leoncavallo, Ruggero [Ruggiero], which implies that the former is the usual form - see New Grove Opera, Vol 1, Introduction, p. xvi, para 5, "Bibliographical entries", where the example Smith, Buster [John], shows that Buster Smith is the name under which John Smith was generally known. --GuillaumeTell 00:26, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

All these references to encyclopaedias make little sense – everyone knows that one carefully researched biography is more trustworthy than ten encyclopaedias. Of the other books mentioned, only one appears to be a full biography, and it would be absurd to assume that Dryden wasn't aware of it and the fact that it used Ruggero. In fact, Dryden's use of Ruggiero throughout his definitive biography in spite of most previous (and now obsolete on this point) publications' use of Ruggero is in itself evidence for Ruggiero – you don't contradict decades of publications like that unless you know what you're doing. Leoncavallo: Life and Works is the first fully documented biography of Leoncavallo, and the author has had access to hundreds of unpublished letters. Simply put, no one has looked this thoroughly on Leoncavallo's life before. It's not surprising that it has resulted in new insights. Pronuncia (talk) 06:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Did the author specifically address the spelling issue in this biography? Antandrus (talk) 06:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

That is also my question. The role of a "carefully researched biography" is not just to assert that X is the case, but also to explicitly show why Y is NOT the case, if there has been some argument for Y in the literature. If they don't put to rest the case for Y while making the case for X, they do not resolve the issue of the competing claims. In fact, they will tend to perpetuate the issue. It's intellectual arrogance masquerading as scholarship. We see this sort of thing where composers' birth dates are uncertain - Chopin, for example. Any biography that just baldly asserted he was born on 1 March, with no reference to the possibility, however remote, that it actually happened on 22 February, would be regarded with a great deal of suspicion by me and my kind. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

See my comment further down for a snippet I found about the spelling which is simply a categorical statement by Dryden. He may have discussed elsewhere in the book why the "Ruggiero" spelling is to be preferred, but that may simply have been his editorial choice. I tend to agree with Jack of Oz re taking the author's/publisher's word re the level of scholarship at its face value. Here are some extracts from a lengthy review of Dryden's book in Notes (the journal of the Music Library Association):

[...] his treatment of Pagliacci's origins is less thorough than has been provided by Matteo Sansone ("The Verismo of Ruggero Leoncavallo: A Source Study of Pagliacci," Music & Letters 70, no. 3 [August 1989]: 342-62). Similarly, the conflicts with Puccini (over Leoncavallo's contribution to the libretto for Manon Lescaut and the rights to Henri Murger's La vie de boheme, for instance) are poorly documented. {...] Dryden relies heavily on Leoncavallo's own view preserved in an extensive corpus of letters (which he located in some fifty libraries) and an autobiographical sketch (the so-called Appunti) dictated to a servant in Leoncavallo's later years. Dryden's conclusion that a "careful checking of facts proved most of the Appunti 's details to be correct" (p. 12 n.) stands in contrast to Julian Budden's view that "recent research has shown this document to be an extraordinary tangle of fact and fiction that has yet to be fully unraveled" (p. 95), but Dryden apparently feels no need to address this alternative view--or other contrasting interpretations.

If anyone has access to Oxford Journals, there's another in-depth review of Dryden's book in Music and Letters. See [3]. I'd be curious to know what that one says. Voceditenore (talk) 11:02, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

• The Library of Congress says he is named Ruggiero Leoncavallo. [Update: There are also "authorities" that index the man under Ruggero Leoncavallo: see VIAF. (Where does the British Library stand on this? Answer: They use the Library of Congress. [4]) There seem to be some differences concerning the birth year. I assume the article agrees with Dryden? I'm wondering how reliable these "authorities" are. However, it seems clear that both variants need to be in the lead. (See also: Wikipedia:Authority control)] --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:21, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Dryden does agree with the birth date. I agree that both forms need to be in the lede, and added them yesterday. I did find one snippet reference to the spelling in Dryden on the same page:

The name "Ruggero" was taken from his paternal uncle with the spelling altered to "Ruggiero". [5]

I've also tried to find images of his autograph where he signs his first name, as I always consider that definitive, but alas, the only ones I could find were signed "R. Leoncavallo". In any case, since both are in the lede now and the redirects are all in place it probably doesn't make a huge difference one way or another. But Pronuncia, before making a change like that and then rapidly altering scores of other articles, templates, and categories, it's much more preferable to raise the issue on the main article's talk page first and give clear reasons and references for wanting to make the change. And given that you had made a significant change to a long-standing article (without any prior discussion) and obliterated any mention of an extremely common spelling of the subject's name, you should also have referenced it to an inline citation (not simply repeating the publisher's blurb in an edit summary) and minimally provided a note of the alternate spelling. Doing otherwise is a disservice to readers. Voceditenore (talk) 09:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

If anyone wanted to ask Dryden himself, he gives his email address on this page of his website almost-instinct 09:19, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Here's a score published in France where his name is spelled Ruggero [6]. And another published in New York where it is spelled Ruggiero [7]. Also among other libraries, BnF uses Ruggero (Notice d'autorité personne), as does Biblioteca nazionale centrale di Roma [8]. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

• See also page 131 of the programma di sala at La Fenice which reproduces the original poster for the world premiere of Leoncavallo's La boheme. Big letters—"Parole e musica di Ruggero Leoncavallo". Voceditenore (talk) 10:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I see an editor has named it back to Ruggero. Was there a consensus that this should be done? I was unaware of it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

No, not really, either one way or another. The gist of arguments here (apart from the original mover) for potentially leaving the move to Ruggiero Leoncavallo was basically the huge amount of extra work involled in reverting all of Pronuncia's changes to other related articles, templates, etc. The move back seems to have been done with no discussion either here or on the talk page and left behind double redirects, inaccurate interwiki links, an incongruent template, etc.. I've left a stiff note at Talk:Ruggero Leoncavallo requesting that no further moves be made without a formal discussion there. And many thanks to Robert.Allen for repairing some of the most egregious fall-out from the latest move back. Robots took care of the rest. Voceditenore (talk) 08:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Theater des Westens

On a request from 4meter4, Dr. Blofeld created Theater des Westens = Volkstheater Berlin = Städtische Oper, and I expanded. Please check, correct, expand, and see where links to it are missing. It's nominated for DYK. There are red links, Der Waffenschmied, and there could be more premiered operas linked - feel invited! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It's scheduled to appear on the Main page as the next set, improvements still welcome, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Vincenzo La Scola - Eyes please

An IP editor persists in adding to the lead that La Scola's career was "mainly in musical theatre and character roles." This is, of course, patent nonsense. I've reverted twice now and left a note on the article talk page explaining why. But they may keep it up. The IP's edit summary was, and I quote, "updated information from cliff richard official". Geesh!. – Voceditenore (talk) 15:27, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Carmen

I have left a note on this article's talkpage, outlining a strategy for improving the article. I'm prepared to do a lot of the work, though with this popular opera (around 2000 daily traffic) it may be difficult to establish a consensus as to what needs to be done. Comments welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 22:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Repeated COI edits at Toledo Opera

After the much publicized financial problems and staffing changes at the Toledo Opera in 2011, there have been numerous attempts to remove any unflattering content from the article. I personally did not add any of that content and it is possible that a more neutral presentation could be made. However, I don't think that the facts surrounding the company's problems should be entirely removed. Would it be possible to get this page protected?4meter4 (talk) 15:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I've put it on my watchlist and sent a note to the IP who did the latest removal. Let's see what happens. I don't think it qualifies for PP yet. The article is unbalanced, however. The Artistic Director who eventually left in the wake of a large deficit, was there for 10 years and had introduced some adventurous programming with several critical successes. There should be more about the company during her tenure than the two sentences currently there. I'll try to add some over the coming days. There had been more about her in the article, added by this editor who has also attempted several times to remove the "unflattering" content but it was pure puffery largely paraphrased from an old version of the company's website and reverted by an IP in Toledo. Incidentally, the editor who added the accurate and well-referenced information about the staffing changes and financial difficulties has a user name remarkably similar to the Music Director of WGTE-FM in Toledo [9]. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:17, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The registered editor who keeps blanking the section, did it again a week later. I reverted, left a series of warnings (COI, Content blanking, Edit warring) on her talk page, as well as a note on Talk:Toledo Opera. I'll keep watching it. Voceditenore (talk) 07:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Parody opera

I stumbled upon this :de article for which an :en equivalent might be nice. It also makes me curious about interwiki links: there are two German articles for Burlesque, but is there a way to dab the lefthand column of language links for a messier case like Parody music? Sparafucil (talk) 02:54, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Which 2 German articles on "Burlesque" do you mean? de:Burlesque and de:New Burlesque? The latter links to Neo-Burlesque, so there are 2 articles with 1:1 interwiki links.

I don't understand what you man by "to dab the lefthand column of language links". In the article Parody music, an interwiki link to de:Parodie#Musik could be inserted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

How confusing! There's only one there now, and the page history doesnt show any recent edits. But my browser history has this, with links both to de:Burleske and de:burlesque. The languages box reads in part: "Catalá, ˆCesky, Deutsch, Deutsch, Español". Sparafucil (talk) 10:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

The link to de:Burleske was removed in this edit by one of these ever-so-helpful bots; it should probably be reinstated. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Hiba Tawaji

Is this supposed coloratura soprano notable? AFD anyone?4meter4 (talk) 04:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Fortunately, she's not in scope for our project. ;-) I suspect she might scrape a pass at an AfD— she seems to get a certain amount of coverage in the Lebanese press. Probably not worth the hassle. Voceditenore (talk) 07:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)