Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 94

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Lists of operas performed by Opera North

I've now knocked up the first couple of years'-worth of ON's productions in the same format as the Wexford list (see above). This is at User:GuillaumeTell/Pebblebox. I'm mildly dissatisfied with the result, so have posed some questions at User_talk:GuillaumeTell/Pebblebox. Comments welcome here or there; below I've reproduced the comments that Voceditenore and Almost-instinct made when I was starting to think about what to do about Opera North:

If Opera North take a proper summer break then eg Opera North repertoire 1998–1999 I think would be a good way to go. (Just poke around tennis tournaments to see how useful it is that each year of each tournament has its own page; eg 1987 Wimbledon Championships – Men's Singles) Differentiating between New Productions and revivals, and linking revivals back to their origins would be interesting, IMO almost-instinct 00:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I think breaking the lists down into separate seasons (or possibly decades) would be both feasible and really useful additions. Voceditenore (talk) 06:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

--GuillaumeTell 19:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Update: after fruitful back-and-forth with almost-instinct on the Pebblebox's Talk page I've arrived at a table in which all columns sort satisfactorily. 3 seasons done, 7 more to do before I tidy it up, add refs and whatnot and unleash it on an expectant world ... and then start on the remaining decades. --GuillaumeTell 17:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria

By way of information, this has now been promoted to FA. L'Orfeo in the autumn, unless someone else does it first. Brianboulton (talk) 18:02, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations, Brian, and many thanks! I've added it to the rotation on Portal:Opera. – Voceditenore (talk) 18:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Congrats! Shoemaker's Holiday ^talk 19:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

April composer suggestion

Anton Rubinstein - all there is at the moment is an extrmely basic article on The Demon and nothing on his other operatic works (save a stub on Christus which he called an 'sacred opera' but is actually an oratorio). --Smerus (talk) 10:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

See April CoM and OoM - update below. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to note

Verdi's Falstaff, during its original production. Obviously a rush work - this was printed 9 days after the première, in London, and it shows, but a fascinating glimpse of the production.

I'm doing some major cleanup work to finally push this image to Featured Picture. It's going to take a while, but Featured Pictures go on Wikipedia's main page, and that means links to Giuseppe Verdi and Falstaff (opera). If we can push a little to bring these up to a high standard, it'd look good for the project when they are linked. Shoemaker's Holiday ^talk 19:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

See April CoM and OoM - update below. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

April CoM and OoM - update

Composer of the Month

Following the suggestion by Smerus, I have made Anton Rubinstein one of the CoMs. As his red-linked operas may be obscure/hard to reference, I've added three more composers, born at around the same time (and from three different countries) to attract a wider particpation. See [1]

Opera of the Month

In the absence of any other proposals, I've used the suggestion by Shoemaker's Holiday to improve Verdi's Falstaff. See [2]

– Voceditenore (talk) 16:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

AfD: Julia Noulin-Merat

This article about the resident set-designer for Commonwealth Opera in Northampton, Massachusetts is being discussed for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Julia Noulin-Merat. – Voceditenore (talk)

Opera in Latin America

This interesting new article just popped up. Its unreferenced but certainly has a lot of potential.4meter4 (talk) 06:42, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Enormous number of red links, though. It's largely a translation from an article in Spanish Wikipedia, which has a lot of external links but no inline references. --GuillaumeTell 21:48, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes I agree. Perhaps we should un-wikify most of the opera titles but leave the composers wikified? The article needs to be sourced and it would be good if we added a lead as well.4meter4 (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I've tagged this as unreferenced. I agree about the enormous quantity of red links, they are extremely distracting, and some of the operas are so obscure, articles on them will be very difficult to source. I've also left a query on the talk page. If this article is a translation in whole or in part from the Spanish Wikipedia (Ópera en América Latina), this needs to be properly attributed per Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia#Translating from other language Wikimedia Projects. Voceditenore (talk) 18:42, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Whoops! Scratch that last bit. I missed the translation box at the top of the article's talk page. Voceditenore (talk) 19:19, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Well I un-wikified all the red-linked operas. I have not checked to see if the blue linked operas in fact go to the correct works. Perhaps someone would like to take a crack at that.4meter4 (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I just wrote a lead for the article based on its content. Please feel free to make any changes. I also went through the article and checked all of the links. Several of the wikified composers and operas didn't go the right people/works. Everything should be ok now.4meter4 (talk) 19:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Imminent operas

Do we have a facility for noting operas in course of progress (e.g. this one)? If not, would it be useful to have one? --Smerus (talk) 14:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

We don't have a facility as such, although we do sometimes get whole articles about operas that haven't premiered yet, e.g. [3] and [4]. There are others that were added before the opera premiered, but have now had their premieres, e.g. [5]. Often (but not always) they're added to publicize the opera by editors obviously affiliated with the opera house in question or the composer. If members think it would be useful, I could add a section at the top of this page (see the coloured bands) where these could be listed. I wouldn't recommend putting it on the main project page, as this is already quite full, and devoted to guidelines, tools, etc. - Voceditenore (talk) 21:53, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

RfC about to close

Any more on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC? It closes up in a few days. Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 15:19, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Father and son

From Donald Smith (tenor):

• Donald Smith and Robin Donald remain the only father and son to ever sing on stage together in opera anywhere in the world

This has been fact-tagged. Can anyone verify it, or provide a counter-example? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Well I have an earlier uncle and nephew (Michael Leoni and John Braham)......--Smerus (talk) 09:38, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

How could one verify it?! almost-instinct 10:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I guess, if there's a cite saying the claim is widely regarded as being accurate, and possibly providing some near misses, such as the one Smerus came up with. I'm assuming that whoever made the original claim was aware that this is a very difficult thing to check ab initio, as who knows how many minor opera companies in out of the way places employed members of the same family who were not well known beyond those places. But presumably, someone has done such checking and found no other examples. If we can find a cite, we can perhaps scrutinise their evidence. If we can't find a cite, I'd prefer to trash the claim entirely, even if we can't find a counter-example. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd always remove such content barring a pretty ironclad cite. Something on the order of Grove. It's not infrequent to see patently false trivia cited in promotional material, where it pretty much works out to "we can't think of any counterexamples, and it makes great copy". I've removed it. If we really must have a counter-example, well, thinking back to the last Gilbert and Sullivan festival I went to, I immediately thought of two father/daughter pairs, since I know them well, and I'm sure I could come up with a father/son pair if I asked around or thought about it long enough. Looking at somewhat more notable people, are we really to believe that George Grossmith never once sang some Gilbert and Sullivan with his son at some benefit concert or other? Because they both did a whole ton of concerts. Shoemaker's Holiday ^talk 14:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm happy with that. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:03, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I figured that, with opera in Italy being such a family affair for several centuries, surely the original assertion couldn't be correct. Sure enough, here's a counter-example:

Donizetti's idea for his opera buffa masterpiece Don Pasquale, based on Anelli's libretto to Stefano Pavesi's Ser Marc'Antonio, was encouraged by Lablache, who had sung this opera before in Palermo for the Gala opening of the Teatro San Ferdinando. Don Pasquale opened at the Theatre des Italien in Paris on January 3rd 1843, and immediately became a success. The title role was played to perfection by Luigi Lablache. The other members of the cast (known as the I Puritani Quartet) were: Giulia Grisi - Norina, Antonio Tamburini as Dr. Malatesta and Mario- Ernesto. Frederick Lablache, Luigi's oldest son sang the small role of the Notario. (http://www.crabbet.com/clablache/artcle_pg2.html)

I can't confirm, but another candidate would be Placido Domingo, who started off in his parents' zarzuela company. If his father sang in the company, surely the two would have appeared together on stage at some point. Drhoehl (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I recall PD talks quite a lot about his parents' company in his book My First Forty Years, but not sure if he mentions this particular thing almost-instinct 11:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

"Recordings" section: please see Talk: La traviata discography for discussion

Your input would be appreciated. Viva-Verdi (talk) 17:58, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Capitalization of French opera titles

The rules for capitalisation are not the same for French as for Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese. Everytime I see incorrect capitalisation of a French title on English Wikipedia, especially for opera, and see the ridiculous reverts editors make, I react just like Kleinzach (to a similar topic, but not this one) in his post below:

« What exactly are you trying to say? That all titles of operas should be 'anglicized' according to subjective (local?) notions of 'usual' practice in anglophone countries? Is that it? (...) What is the point you are trying to make here? Do you object to foreign language style rules being used on WP? Sorry to point this out - especially if you are not a native speaker - but it's difficult to make out what you are trying to say. How about trying again? --Kleinzach (talk) 14:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC) »

For the enlightenment of editors so disposed, here is the exact text about capitalisation from Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale (sixième édition, novembre 2006), ISBN 2-7433-0482-0 issued by the national government of France, approved for use by the Académie française : (NB : the bold emphasis on text is my own.)

Titres d'oeuvres et de journaux : On mettra une majuscule non seulement à l'article initial mais aussi :

— dans un titre contenant une comparaison ou une symétrie, à chaque terme en opposition ou en parallèle si l'un d'eux exige la majuscule :

• La Belle et la Bête
• Le Diable et le Bon Dieu
• Dom Juan ou le Festin de pierre

— dans les autres, au premier substanif (ainsi qu'aux adjectifs et adverbes qui peuvent le précéder) :

• Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry
• Les Plus Belles Années de notre vie
• Les Liaisons dangereuses
• Le Jour le plus long
• La Bonne Pipe
• Le Dernier Jour d'un condamné
• La Nouvelle Revue française
• Le Petit Chaperon rouge.

Titres doubles : Si le titre comprend un autre titre ou une variante, les règles précédentes s'appliqueuent aux deux titres séparément (avec la réserve déjà signalée concernant l'article initial du second titre) :

• Critique de l'École des femmes
• Le Mariage de Figaro ou la Folle Journée
• Knock ou le Triomphe de la médecine
• Émile ou De l'éducation

These simple rules are not difficult to follow! The rules for titles in Spanish and Portuguese, which seem to be applied here for all so-called Latin languages, are not correct for French. Separate rules for German language titles already exist! I do not need to repeat what Kleinzach wrote, again. Simply the rules for this WikiProject must be changed because they are wrong. -- If an author or editor is in doubt what the correct capitalisation should be, simply look at the capitalisation used on French Wikipédia, or contact a native French speaker. Bien amicalement, Charvex (talk) 08:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment - despite being in French (which I haven't studied for over 25 years), that is actually extremely clear if you look at the examples. Not sure exactly what has been happening here but I side with Kleinzach and Charvex on this (if there are any sides here, which I doubt). Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 09:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem is all over the place. What started this rant was a correction I made in the "Tales of Hoffmann" article for « Les Contes d'Hoffmann » which was quickly reverted back to the incorrect « Les contes d'Hoffmann ». I gave-up making regular corrections like this years ago on Wikipédia. However, every so often, I get weak, make a change anyway (anywhere), then an idiot editor reverts it again. I just needed to vent. Tchao, Charvex (talk) 09:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Those of us with very long memories can recall endless discussions about this, and (IIRC) different French people use different systems of capitalisation and not always what is dictated by the French government or the Académie française. The most important thing to note is that this is English-language Wikipedia and the Opera Project's standard reference work is the English-language New Grove Dictionary of Opera, and, in cases of doubt, we follow Grove. Grove says that the title of the opera is Les contes d'Hoffmann. Kleinzach (who seems to have been quoted out of context above) is more knowledgeable about these matters than I am and will probably be able to locate the various previous discussions on this subject, so I'll ask him to chime in here. Best to all. --GuillaumeTell 14:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hm... perhaps this isn't quite so clear as I was first lead to believe. Kleinzach has indeed been quoted out of context and has, in fact, been quoted against himself in the above statement since it was he who actually reverted Charvex. GT is probably right that French capitalisation is far more complex than Charvex is suggesting. Grove seems to be the safest bet, quite clearly. If they don't know what they are talking about I haven't a clue who does... --Jubilee♫clipman 14:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Summarizing from 2 lengthy Opera Project discussions – Archive 49 February 2008 and Archive 55 May 2008 – as well as the currrent Opera project guidleines on the capitalization of foreign titles:

We are already fully aware of the Académie française rule. It's the same one used in Le Petit Robert. As we all know, however, in practice the Academy's pronouncements are often ignored, even by French government agencies, including the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, and they are consciously ignored (not as the result of typographical error or ignorance). We are not arguing that the Académie française version is "incorrect" or that Grove is an authority on French capitalization practices. And we have never done so. Rather, we have chosen a system congruent with all of the major reference works that we use for our articles, and which is acceptable in France, even if it is not the one AF advises. We have made it clear on the Opera Project page that our adherence to the Grove/Oxford/Viking/BNF system is not a generic pronouncement on the linguistic correctness of various forms of French capitalization rules.

Unlike many, if not most, projects at Wikipedia which regularly deal with foreign language works, we apply our guidelines consistently to avoid confusion and inconsistency between and within opera articles. We also provide numerous redirect pages for various possible versions of the spelling and/or capitalization to aid readers in finding the article.

– Voceditenore (talk) 15:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Re Kleinzach's May 3, 2008 comment quoted above... It was made in response to another editor (not Charvex) who was trying to claim (somewhat bizarrely) that by not capitalizing the B in La bohème , we were not following the English usage of capitalizing proper nouns and proper adjectives whenever they occur. The editor wasn't talking about French capitalization, and in any case, the title of the opera is Italian, although I believe at one point the editor tried to claim it was really English because that's what Anglophones call the opera too {{{Sigh}}}. You can read all the gory, convoluted, and time-wasting details in Archive 55 (linked above). Voceditenore (talk) 16:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• And there's me thinking "La Bohème" was French... [ironic smile]. That explains a lot: thanks Voce --Jubilee♫clipman 16:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

So, back to the point: What is wrong with following the practice of French Wikipédia, and standard French language practice? (This will be my last comment on this matter.) To quote Kleinzach again: « What exactly are you trying to say? That all titles of operas should be 'anglicized' according to subjective (local?) notions of 'usual' practice in anglophone countries? » Tchin-tchin! Charvex (talk) 21:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I think voceditenore has adequately answered your question Charvex. She explained our policy clearly. I don't think anyone here wants to change it. As voceditenore pointed out, our system is the same used by the Bibliothèque Nationale de France, so I don't think our system could be described as anti-French. Further, it alligns with the best resources on opera available in the English language. The system we have is already in place, it works, and it is used by numerous academic publications and organizations internationally. 'If ain't broke, don't fix it.'4meter4 (talk) 21:31, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I regularly work at the Bibliothèque nationale de France as a professional historical researcher. The statement by Voceditenore, you quoted, is an untruth. (NB : The « N » in « nationale » is not capitalised. Its abbreviation also is « BnF », by the way.) Sorry, this really is my last comment on the matter. I could not let that untruth pass without comment. Charvex (talk) 21:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Observe this list in the Gallica collection at the BnF or type opéra-comique into the search box for the BnF catalogue général. Some random examples from the catalogue général:

Le rêve: opéra-comique en 4 actes

Le toréador ou L'accord parfait: opéra-bouffon en 2 actes

Le mauvais oeil: opéra-comique en un acte

Le petit chaperon rouge: opéra-comique en trois actes

Le tableau parlant: opéra-comique en un acte

etc. etc. - Voceditenore (talk) 07:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Very witty! I am still laughing how you pick-and-choose! Very cute trick! -- If you actually LOOK at the documents connected to the database results, you will see standard French capitalisation. Also, I did exactly as you asked: I went to the BnF catalogue, keyed-in « opéra comique ». Some database entries are as you say, many are not. You chose what you like. No reasonable person can consider a raw database listing is a reliable source for proper French spelling and capitalisation, anymore than an English database dump is for English. ----- I actually do understand your arguement! English Wikipédia is for Anglo-Saxon speakers, by Anglo-Saxon speakers, with their Anglo-Saxons sources. MacMillan is a British publisher, The Grove is an Anglo-Saxon publication (UK, U.S.A., & Canada), Stanley Sadie is a British editor. And, the CMO is an American style book for Americans... So be it! I was hoping that there might be some enlightened editors who actually know French, but I was wrong. ----- Other people and myself have written to show you how French sources from Le Robert, to the Imprimerie nationale, the Académie française - not to forget the famous Le Bon Usage by Grevisse (please notice the capitalisation of this title) or Larousse - all of which must be considered the finest of « reliable sources » do not use your Anglo-Saxon methods. ---- The best proof is French Wikipédia itself, e.g. Les Contes d'Hoffmann, Le Petit Chaperon rouge, Le Mauvais Œil, etc. ----- But, you probably believe that French Wikipédians do not know how to capitalise titles in their own language! (Perhaps, you should edit and correct their entries for them!) Very, very amusing! Tchin-tchin ! Charvex (talk) 21:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

For the last time, we fully understand the Académie française rules. For reasons which have been explained to you multiple times, we choose to use a different system for rendering foreign titles. It is called "sentence capitalization" and is used by the US and UK cataloging systems, the main English style-sheets, and the main reference works in this subject, i.e. opera and classical music. It is also used by the BnF cataloging system even for French titles. If you don't understand what the "sentence capitalization" system is and how it works, and still cannot understand it after readng this, I suggest you look it up elsewhere. If you do understand it and don't like it, you are entitled to your opinion. As you say, "So be it". Voceditenore (talk) 22:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to be boring about this (or maybe I do), but why then do we have 'La bohème' (Puccini and Leoncavallo's as well) when Grove has 'La Bohème'? (cf. 'La Juive' which we have, properly as I understand, capitalised).--Smerus (talk) 10:47, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

AfDs, PRODs, etc.

Our list of unreferenced BLPs is down to 19. I've now been going through these and weeding out some:

• Sarian Grevelle, Amy R. Martin, Amy Yovanovich, and Carol Lesley Green have been tagged for proposed deletion
• Eiko Furukawa has been sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eiko Furukawa

Note that newly-created unreferenced BLPs are being tagged by many editors with {{Prod blp}} (If no sources are provided in 10 days, the article is deleted. There's more about it here.) Some of these may well slip under our radar if they haven't already been bannered with {{WikiProject Opera}}. So it's good to check User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult every couple of days, and banner any appropriate new articles. Voceditenore (talk) 16:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Category:List of Argentinean operas

I've nominated this for deletion. The discussion is here. All input appreciated. Voceditenore (talk) 08:37, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

June Composers of the Month

Proposal: The composers for the month of June are from Ireland, England and America and have all had their operas performed at Wexford Festival Opera. We need articles on:

• Michael William Balfe's The Rose of Castille (originally premiered 1857, performed in Wexford 1951)
• Charles Villiers Stanford's Much Ado about Nothing (originally premiered 1901, performed in Wexford 1964)
• Nicholas Maw's The Rising of the Moon (originally premiered 1970, performed in Wexford 1990)
• Conrad Susa's Transformations (originally premiered 1973, performed in Wexford 2006)

Comments? Other suggestions? (Note CoM is for the creation of new articles) Voceditenore (talk) 06:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

June Operas of the Month

Proposal: The Operas of the Month for June are three works by Vincenzo Bellini:

• La sonnambula needs a performance history, improved referencing, and an article for Luciano Mariani who created the role of Count Rodolfo as well as Alfonso D'Este in Donizetti's Lucrezia Borgia
• Adelson e Salvini needs a synopsis (currently one sentence), the premiere cast, and references
• Bianca e Fernando a stub needing expansion and references

Comments? Other suggestions? (Note OoM is for the improvement of existing articles) Voceditenore (talk) 07:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Request for input

I would appriciate your opinions at this conversation: Talk:Vocal range#Singers possessing a wide vocal range.4meter4 (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Jonita Lattimore

I have never written an opera bio article before my current effort at Jonita Lattimore. I usually do athlete or politician bios. For athletes and politicians you can do a fairly comprehensive biography by surveying newspapers. However, opera singers perform internationally and I feel remiss that I can not properly sequence international performances. Is there any sort of source like www.ibdb.com for opera performers that could help me determine when her international performances occurred.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there isn't. An artist search on OperaBase can sometimes turn up things, but it's hit and miss, dependent on information from the opera houses or the singers themselves and unless you are a paid subscriber, only covers the last two years. With opera singers, you have to do it by hand, using their official websites as a clue of where to look. Her resume at her management site lists only Serena in Porgy and Bess at the Opéra Bastille in Paris which you can verify via [6] p. 12. She also appeared in Vienna in Dvořák's Requiem (see [7]) and Xalapa, Mexico in concert (see [8]). From what she's already performed in, she may not have appeared much abroad. Another tactic is to restrict the Google search to particular languages. There are some more tips at Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Online research. Well done on the article!. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

AfD: OperaUpClose

The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/OperaUpClose. — Voceditenore (talk) 15:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The La Scala archives are back online

After several years, the La Scala archives are back online. These are extensive, often include production photographs, and are useful for referencing articles on singers and adding to performance histories for articles on individual operas. Registration (free) is required to search and accesss them. At the moment the site is only in Italian. If you need help navigating, leave a message here. Also, a reminder that there is guide to other online resources for opera articles at WikiProject Opera/Online research. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 22:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Nadia Petrella

This article is currently being discussed at WP:Articles for deletion/Nadia Petrella. Voceditenore (talk) 11:45, 9 June 2010 (UTC)