Portal talk:Anarchism/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

February 2008 update

I propose selecting Image:HaymarketMartyrs.jpg as the featured picture, as the corresponding Haymarket affair is nearing Good article status. The article has already been selected here, as have featured articles Anarcho-capitalism and (currently) Emma Goldman, so I propose selecting one of the other Anarchism-related Good articles. Neither Anarchy in Somalia nor Alexandru Bogdan-Piteşti are particularly representative of anarchism in my opinion, so I think Anarky or Dyer Lum be selected. If no-one has an opinion, I'll go ahead and update the portal to this effect next week, but it would be obviously preferable if this became a collective project not reliant on any individual. Any thoughts on selected content? Skomorokh ^confer 00:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, okay by me... Lord Metroid (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I switched the comment I had here to the Updates? discussion above, since that was more on the topic I was on. But my point stands. We're going to burn through our featured and good articles fast. We've discussed using high-end B rated articles for the portal at the Task Force page. Maybe you should consider other articles along those lines. I'm afraid I haven't a firm suggestion to make as to what content to use myself.--Cast (talk) 09:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

With Anarky and Dyer Lum, that'll get us through March, and the CNT article will definitely be in good shape by then, so that'll get us through April. I'd be shocked (and disappointed dammit!) if we couldn't get some more Good Articles together by then. Murderbike (talk) 00:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking; it would be a sorry state of affairs if a 17-member project couldn't get one article per month up to good status. I think CNT has an excellent chance of being successfully nominated before April, and CrimethInc. is currently nominated. That gives us until summer to get some proper work done; we should use the portal updates as an incentive to beat some articles into shape. Skomorokh ^confer 12:45, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to respectfully disagree with Haymarket being selected. Maybe we could do Haymarket in May, when it would have more relevance. Also, it seems like we're really just scratching the surface of anarchism with Emma Goldman and Haymarket. I mean, those are some of the biggest names we've got. How about some Anarchy 201? How about something non-western? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.146.223 (talk) 15:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

We have been focusing on the quality of the content rather than diversity. I'd like to stick to Good quality articles where at all possible, but if you're not happy with the Haymarket image, please suggest another free image to take its place. I've added a gallery of potential selected images below. Regards, Skomorokh ^confer 16:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The calendar

As well, Carabinieri and I have been filling in the dates for the calendar or anniversaries. We've now got all of January and more than half of February filled in. We could start actually running the calendar as soon as possible, as long as other folks want to pitch in on the filling in of the dates. Maybe folks could take on a month to fill in or something? Murderbike (talk) 06:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure. I had some success using Daily Bleed to fill in the first few days of January. I'll make a point of working on March.--Cast (talk) 08:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Selected image candidates

After 24.20.146.223's above objections to selecting the Haymarket image, I had look around for some alternatives, with an emphasis on diversity of both thought and geography. Please comment on which you approve of and feel free to add your own candidates. Skomorokh ^confer 16:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If we're gonna be updating monthly, I don't think we'll have to worry too much about diversity, it will come out of necessity. I'm kind of partial to the funny bomb-thrower, but think that all of these would be fine at some point. Murderbike (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I had a coin-flip tournament to decide. George Washington chose the Don't Just Vote image. A perfect use of 30 seconds, I'm sure you'll agree.--Cast (talk) 04:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, that settles it, doesn't it? скоморохъ ^ѧ 10:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Note: I've moved the unused images to Portal talk:Anarchism/Selected image. Comment there for the March update. скоморохъ 13:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

March 2008 update

Yo, so it seems we forgot to plan ahead for the March update. I've gone ahead and selected the "Anarchist bomber" image for selected image, as it was complimented last time round with no objections. I'm not sure about selected article: I was going to select Anarky but there are no free images and the lede focuses mostly on comics issues rather than anarchist (similarly Alan Moore and The Illuminatus! Trilogy). Then I was going to select Jim Bell but it too has no free images of the subject, and it's an obvious conflict of interest since I wrote it. Now I'm thinking Confederación Nacional del Trabajo, given that we want to reserve Haymarket affair for May. The CNT is of sufficient quality (though unfinished) and has a free image. Thoughts? скоморохъ 13:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

What about Crimethinc? I think it might be closer to GA than the CNT at this point. Murderbike (talk) 17:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right, but about half the regular editors to the article think it has serious problems with advertising and neutral point of view. If Portal editors don't see a problem then I'm cool with it, but with a conflict of interest I don't think I personally should select it right now. How about we wait for a third (neutral) opinion and then select one of the options they're happy with? скоморохъ 17:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Another option would be to write a portal-specific lede for Alan Moore and the I!T. Murderbike (talk) 18:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I guess the only question there is "Does this inform the reader about anarchism?" I'd probably prefer a lower quality, more relevant article like CNT/CrimethInc./John Zerzan/Anarchism in Spain/Voltairine de Cleyre or particularly Individualist anarchism.скоморохъ 18:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've commented on this in the past. I just don't think we have enough FA/GA articles for use in the Portal. Now we realize it isn't just a matter of running out of them quickly, but also of the nature of the ones we do have. We just don't have a lot of core articles. I reiterate my earlier suggestion in support of yours: that we choose articles for display based on relevance, and that we update the portal every-other month, until we have a suitably large pool of high quality articles to choose from.--Cast (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There is wisdom in this suggestion, I think. I suppose it's not the end of the world to change the selected article bimonthly. скоморохъ 02:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Barring consensus on this matter, would somebody with better coding abilities than mine care to migrate the Anniversaries box from Carabinieri's userspace into the portal? I'll try to spend some time this week filling in the blanks for the near future to keep it up to date. Murderbike (talk) 02:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I've migrated the Anniversaries template here and filled in for March 8, but its currently blank thereafter.

OK, I migrated all the rest of March's days, and then March itself, which I couldn't decide if there was an easier way to do it than migrating each day one by one. Is there? Murderbike (talk) 03:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of, nope. скоморохъ 11:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

April is now all done. I'm going to try to finish up May, but come the end of this month, I will be virtually internet-free for at least two months, and won't be able to work on this at all. So, if someone wants to do it, finishing up the rest of the year REALLY needs to be done. Murderbike (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not really my area of interest, but if April comes and goes and there is no progress, I won't let the project die an early death. скоморохъ 23:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I'm pretty sure I can guarantee getting May done, just probably not after that. If anything, I suppose the Anniversaries section can just be removed from the Portal until it gets picked up again. Murderbike (talk) 23:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Finished all of the migrations, but there are still more red than blue links. At least now the work load is ever-so-lighter.--Cast (talk) 05:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

May is done now. I'll be back around May 23rd, so if someone doesn't get June done while I'm gone, I'll try to cram it out when I get back, but no guarantees. Murderbike (talk) 18:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

anarcho-capitalism

it is not a legitimate form of anarchy. i have no problem with its own page but it is misleading to have it on the template. (69.34.22.165 (talk) 23:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC))

Ya don't say?--Cast (talk) 23:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed April update

Limited preview here.

• Selected image: In spite of the comment above: Image:Law speaker.jpg, a shining example of capitalist/mutual aid economic organization, depending on your taste.
• Selected article: This April Fool's article will be those merry pranksters at CrimethInc. for their joyous subversion of consensus reality/the joke their frivolous superficial lifestylism makes of anarchism, depending on your taste.

Speak now or forever hold your peace; update will take place approx 00:00 April 1 Wikipedia Central Time (UTC)

I am also trialling a new automated system for the Did You Know? section, whereby DYK hooks will be grouped together in selections of 4/5, one of which groups the portal will randomly select to display each time the page's cache is purge. Test it out here by clicking the "purge this page" option in the lower right hand corner. I won't implement this feature without discussion. Skomorokh 21:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The selected images sit well with me. And I fully endorse any system that will further automate the Portal, as I am concerned that it may fall into disrepair if it requires constant maintenance and the users most interested in it should move on. The ideal would be that we could eventually update its systems only once every few months, but that it will constantly provide new content for visiting users. I must press, would it be possible to automate the featured image and article?--Cast (talk) 22:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Glad you approve. The maintenance issue is what motivated me to look into automation as well. We can certainly automate the image and article, if we went to the trouble of writing enough (20+) ledes/descriptions. Check out this and this. All that would leave would be the news section, which is probably the most neglected aspect of the portal. A week or two's work, and we could have a more or less self-sustaining portal, fit perhaps for featured status. Skomorokh 22:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ahem, pre-emptive apologies if the latter suggestion gives you nightmares. Skomorokh 22:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Having a fair number of automated images would be good. I'll look into it as a side project, besides adding anniversaries.--Cast (talk) 23:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it not possible to write a bot for portal updates? Lord Metroid (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Could be, want to try? Skomorokh 23:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Automated DYK's

I have implemented the automated DYK system described above. It can be tested by purging the Portal:Anarchism page; each time the page is purged a new selection of DYK hooks is displayed. There are currently six selections, listed at Portal:Anarchism/Did you know. To nominate new DYK hooks, check out the nominations page at Portal:Anarchism/Did you know/Nominations. Any comments, suggestions, questions etc. welcomed, Skomorokh 20:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Automated Featured Images

I've set up a userspace for creating an automated image generator. Anyone interested in nominating images and complementary text can discuss the matter here.--Cast (talk) 01:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

News

Maybe this could be worked in? I don't have the time. Murderbike (talk) 03:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Infoshop is down in my part of the world, sorry. We do need to look at how the news updates should work, I think.Skomorokh 12:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That time of the month: May update

Ok, we need ideas on selected image and article for May. As there has unfortunately been no input on the proposed selected image automation from anyone other than Cast and I, and we have an acceptable number of images of sufficient quality, I think we should try and get the automated system up and running for May. I can handle the coding, but we need succinct captions which describe the image, link it to an anarchism-related article and credit the creator where possible. Help would very much be appreciated! If we cannot get selected image automation up to a satisfactory standard, I am partial to Image:Umultimopiccolo.jpg as selected image, but as always open to other suggestions.

As regards selected article, we have the perennial problem of low numbers of recognized content on anarchism-related articles. Unused articles covered by the Anarchism task force include the featured articles Anarky, The Illuminatus! Trilogy, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, and the good articles Alan Moore, Alexandru Bogdan-Piteşti, Anarchy in Somalia, Jim Bell and Oscar Wilde. The issue with these is that they do not cover a core topic related to anarchism, or anarchism is only a minor factor to the subject of the article. Anarky and Jim Bell are arguably exceptions to this, but neither article has a free image of the subject; the Katie Sierra article is a possibility, but it has not yet been passed as a GA. If someone can write a sufficiently anarchism-related summary of any of these recognized articles (approx 20 lines, with a free image if possible), that would make the decision easier. Other options include using unrecognized content we think is good enough for the portal (per Anarchism in Cuba precedent), or simply not update the selected article for May at all (per March precedent). All comments and suggestions appreciated. Skomorokh 00:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Update The automated selected image system has been implemented, nominations for new images are open at Portal:Anarchism/Selected image. Skomorokh 14:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Given the slowing pace of activity at the Anarchism Taskforce, I'm leaning towards updating selected article once every two months instead of monthly to maintain a high quality of article by keeping pace with GA promotions. Thoughts? Skomorokh 14:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's what I've always advised. I say do it. In the mean time, lets not worry to much about the task force. It may just be going through a temporary phase.--Cast (talk) 15:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, barring last minute developments, I will not update the selected article for May. Skomorokh 16:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Ditch the "news" section? (or: "if you can't take care of your toys, I'm taking them away, children!")

The news updates are so sporadic, I'm prepared to make an extreme suggestion... perhaps we don't want a news section. News sections are not required by any stretch. I personally feel that a news section is desirable, because there are developing stories involving anarchists all the time. However, this article demands the constant attention of an editor who will update such information. Given the example of this past May, when everyone in the Anarchist Task Force took a holiday, and no one is stepping up to update it consistently, maybe a news section is just too much to handle right now.

I just tried to automate the news by using a bot from Wikinews, but found it wouldn't work in our situation. It requires that Wikinews articles have a specific "anarchism" category for the bot to draw on, and one will not be created any time soon because it does not fit into their system for news classification. They categorize stories by broad topic relevancy (politics/sports/entertainment); not specific wikiproject relevance (anarchism/cricket/ballet).

Perhaps we can replace the news section with a different content section. Perhaps quotes, or a biography showcase. Not that we have to delete the news section to insert a new section. We could conceivably keep the news and get all of these new sections installed, but I'm not trying to get rid of the news to make way for new gimmicks. The point is simply that I don't think we will be updating the news much in the future, and that will hold back making this a featured portal. I advise we replace the news with something – not that we delete it, only to leave a void on the portal. --Cast (talk) 07:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you overstate the challenge of maintenance. Far from "constant attention", all it requires is that an editor who keeps an eye on anarchism in the news (as, presumably, many of those involved in editing this portal do) periodically add a line or two about a notable story to the page. I notice two updates for May, and five for 2008 in total. Two questions arise: are we including the most important news, and is this rate of reporting (one story/month) acceptable? I had a look around for portal standards, and it turns out featured portals are only demoted after three months without updates to the non-automated components. As it stands, recognizing the potential risk, I think the news section is a net positive. We can remove it at any time if it becomes too cumbersome, but until then we need not be too concerned with it.

On the Wikinews question, it seems our hands are tied unless someone starts writing articles on anarchist news there. On the question of adding components to the portal, I think biographies are a bad idea due to the already poor quality of our articles (featured portal criteria require approx. 30 featured, good, or close articles for the Selected article component; separating biographies would just double the workload). Quotes, however, would be a great addition, and it should not be too difficult to find high quality verifiable quotes of sufficient number and automate the display. Any ideas on sources? Skomorokh 20:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I retract my pessimistic view of the news section. Quotes can be worked out on a work space I'll set up (as I had with the featured image generator.) Sources can be worked out there. We have a slew of anarchist related quotes on wikiquote, though I don't think they are properly sourced. We'll cross those bridges when we come to them. Other sources would be books, interviews, essays, and documentaries. I'm not sure about fiction, either written by anarchist or non-anarchist authors, for either anarchist or non-anarchists characters – or just narration. e.g. V for Vendetta's pro-anarchy speeches; a quote about the color black from the Korean film, Anarchists; a quote from The Dispossessed. At what point is the line crossed and we step into the realm of frivolousness? Again, we'll cross those bridges when we get to them.--Cast (talk) 20:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool, post the sandbox link when you're ready. Skomorokh 20:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Potential stories, August 2008–

Obviously, the big story this month will be the Unconventional Action (still horrified that's a red link) protests at the Democratic and Republican National Conventions in the U.S. Recent stories concerning anarchists include the shipyard protests in Turkey, military protests in Israel (more), and the Catalunyan hunger striker. We might also want to consider implementing a hidden referencing system like the Selected quotes setup, to ensure the stories are verifiable. Skomorokh 01:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Intro image shuffler

A few months ago Carabinieri suggested we use a portrait for the intro section, and several other editors disagreed (myself included) on the grounds that he suggested a portrait and many of us felt uncomfortable with the idea of placing any individual anarchist in a fixed place of implied importance. Yes, we all love and adore our anarcho-elders, but which would you want to give this honor over others? And really, isn't the idea of a cannon of "Great Figures of Anarchism" a roundabout insult of their own principals? Well, I think I've found a good compromise. The Portal for Philsophy of Science is using a portrait randomizer for their intro section. Perhaps we can do like wise for the right hand of the intro box? The black flag can remain fixed, but the randomizer can shuffle between portraits of the many anarchists portraits we have. It need not stay limited to the giants of anarchy. It can include photos of our less known figures.--Cast (talk) 08:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The initial objection still stands, because I suspect our average reader will only see the portal once and then navigate away. I am less concerned with honoring one figure over another for the question of the value of their contributions, but because each "great figure" is associated with a subsection of anarchist thought. So our average reader will see Wikipedia as promoting the notion that anarchism is first and foremost collectivist (if it's Bakunin)/individualist egoist (Stirner)/syndicalist (Proudhon/communist (Kropotkin)/religious pacifist (Tolstoy) or god forbid capitalist (Rothbard). That goes against the pluralist consensus we have been implementing at Anarchism etc. for years. The history of anarchism is still far more sensitive a topic than that of philosophy of science, and I don't think stoking the coals for the purposes of decoration is a good idea. On a side point, we might want to expand our description of anarchism at the top of the portal, looking at similar sections at featured portals. Skomorokh 20:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Selected article, Summer 2008

Just to point out in case I am not around to update when the time comes, but we have an unused Good Article on Murray Rothbard that would be perfect for the portal when the selected article needs updating. Incidentally, are we happy with Infoshop as the article of the moment for now? It is of low quality compared to the articles we have been using. Skomorokh 04:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Update: Lev Chernyi is now also a GA. Unused anarchism-related GA's also include Alan Moore, Alexandru Bogdan-Piteşti, Anarchy in Somalia and Oscar Wilde. Unused featured articles include Anarky, The Illuminatus! Trilogy and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Skomorokh 02:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I would object to Gandhi or Alan Moore being used at their present state, if only because the sections which are to deal with their relationship with anarchism are not yet properly written. Gandhi was promoted to featured update without this ever being an issue, but the fact is there is no reference to his association with anarchism near the end of his life, and bare mention of anarchist readings on him. There needs to be a subsection on his in a philosophy section. Like wise for Alan Moore. We have quotes from this guy on the matter, not to mention his philosophy on sex, gender studies, and a host of other issues. A Philosophy section must be created from scratch for him. With that expansion of the article, the page could take a serious stab at a Featured nomination.--Cast (talk) 03:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

If we were to select one of those articles, do you think the selection should be an overview of the topic (as on the Main Page FA's), or the topic as-it-relates-to-anarchism? If the latter, we can narrow down our list to those which have a minimum amount of anarchism-related content. Skomorokh 03:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't fancy myself a proper judge of what a minimum amount would be. I do not object to selecting articles that are not give a topical overview. My objection is that until the article's contents is properly related to anarchism as best we can represent given proper sources, it doesn't feel like an article the task force can properly call a good or featured article. The Gandhi article is featured, but not for its anarchist content. If anyone were to read the Alan Moore article now, they would learn nothing of it as it relates to anarchism except that Alan Moore is an anarchist -- a statement which receives a single citation, despite the numerous times Alan has expressed himself and his beliefs on the matter. It may be a good comic article, and a good biography article, but it isn't a good "anarchist task force" article, if you catch my meaning. Until at least that one aspect of the article is improved, it isn't good enough for this portal.--Cast (talk) 03:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. Skomorokh 03:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Anniversaries

I've recently re-hiddenthe Anniversaries section from the Portal page because we haven't been updating them fast enough. Another problem is that using the Daily Bleed rather than Wikipedia as the source for contents means that half the time, we don't have an article on the individual/event in question to point the reader to. In an attempt to counteract these problems, I've had a bot compile a list of dates from our anarchism articles here; the idea is that one can search that page for a given date, then use content from the associated article (with a link to that article) for the anniversary description. At the time of writing, there are 107 days without anniversaries. Skomorokh 12:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

July finished. Only 5 months left! Skomorokh 13:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

When I did something like 5 months worth of anniversaries over the winter, I mainly used Daily Bleed, but I only put in anniversaries that didn't have a good article to link to if there was no other anniversary as a choice. I also always tried to fact check the dates, as DB is wrong sometimes, and sometimes Wikipedia is. Sometimes, Old Russian dates are confused with modern dates, giving someone like Bakunin two birthdays. Murderbike (talk) 01:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Updated semi-automated selected article system

I have hacked together a crude archive system for our selected articles, at Portal:Anarchism/Selected article. Selected articles are assigned for one full month each, instead of whenever someone remembered to update the article. Previous selected articles are archived for potential future use in a randomized system (once we get 20–30 articles of acceptable quality). Future selected articles can be selected in advance by filling in e.g. Portal:Anarchism/Selected article/April 2010. Currently, Murray Rothbard and Lev Chernyi have been selected for August and September, with October 2008 onwards blank. Instructions etc. are at Portal:Anarchism/Selected article. Skomorokh 18:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The only remaining section needing regular manual updating is the news section, which we can perhaps aside if we get the anniversaries filled in, per the discussions above. Small steps toward a featured portal for the Anarchism Task Force.Skomorokh 18:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Did You Know?

I saw this in the Did You Know...? section:

"...that the anarcho-capitalist contingent of the Young Americans for Freedom was excommunicated from the group after one of them burned a draft card during the 1969 convention, an event credited with spawning the modern libertarian movement?"

Why is this included? I think the vast majority of us agree that so-called "anarcho-capitalism" isn't anarchist, and to refer to it "modern libertarian" implies it bears some kind of relationship to the original use of the word, coined to describe Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, rather than being a deliberate and disingenuous hijacking of the term. Capitalism, being inherently hierarchical, cannot be anarchist, by definition. Having references to "anarcho-capitalism" on the portal undermines the intent of informing people about anarchism. We don't need this disinformation here. SmashTheState (talk) 00:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

You could say the exact same thing about anarchist communism, post-left anarchism, primitivism, infoanarchism, syndicalism, crypto-anarchism, platformism and most other forms of anarchism. All have been accused of not being true anarchism at one point or another. We have a long standing policy on this: Wikipedia does not take sides in factional disputes. For more info, see anarchism and anarcho-capitalism. the skomorokh 12:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with factionalism. As an anarchosyndicalist, I'm not a huge fan of primitivism (and have in the past been told by a primitivist that I'd be against the wall, come the revolution, with the rest of the polluters and desecrators for my support of industrialism) but I recognize that it has the capacity to be anarchist. Anarcho-capitalism, as the article you mention points out, is a contradition in terms. Capitalism requires a hierarchy of property owners and propertyless workers, by definition, and anarchism requires its absence. There's a Flat Earth Society, but you don't see them being given space on the Geography Portal. This is because sane, rational people recognize axiomatically that the Earth is not flat. Likewise, sane and rational people recognize that anarcho-capitalism MUST be either not-anarchist or not-capitalist. While WP:Fringe would come into play in the actual anarchism article, I do not see it requiring mention on the portal, particularly since it appears without the overwhelming objections of the vast majority of anarchists, giving the impression that it is accepted without dispute. SmashTheState (talk) 13:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

You think anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms; Benjamin Tucker thought anarcho-communism was pseudo-anarchism. Attempting to define anarchism as anti-hierarchy and then using that definition to attack anarcho-capitalism, and appeals to "all sane rational people" are not going to strengthen what is simply your opinion. Someone else could come along and argue that syndicalism couldn't possibly be anarchistic because it would subordinate the rights of the individual to an authoritarian vanguard who make decisions on their behalf; I wouldn't be interested in debating them either. The discussion gets us nowhere: if you are inclined to disagree, I invite you to take a look at the archives of Talk:Anarchism. Our readers don't benefit from ideological disclaimers and censorship; they're intelligent enough to decide what is and is not anarchism for themselves. the skomorokh 14:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Selected articles for November 2008-

The portal needs suggestions for selected articles. At present, I am looking at upgrading the decent Voltairine de Cleyre article for November. If you have suggestions for this and future months, they would be most welcome. Any ideas? the skomorokh 18:15, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I see potential in the de Cleyre article, but what about Individualist anarchism? You suggested putting an effort into getting it to GA status a while ago, and I wanted to be part of that before I realized I didn't have enough knowledge on the subject to help. I think it could still be pushed there in short order.--Cast (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

For some reason I had thought the I-A article had been previously selected, but looking at the archives it clearly has not. I did suggest a collective effort but don't have the time to do it justice at the moment. I think the article is one of our best-developed articles, but there are POV issues (see current talk), given that most of the work on the article was done by the great sockpuppeting anarcho-capitalists of 2006/2007. I would be inclined to select it, but don't want to open any sectarian wounds. the skomorokh 19:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, didn't get around to working on the de Cleyre article and found a lot missing in the Individualist anarchism article (i.e.nothing on the French or Russians), so I've selected the B-Class, well-referenced CNT article; we have been individual-centric and avoiding of social anarchism lately. Still looking at the above for December, opportunity permitting.the skomorokh 19:37, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

From Bakunin to Lacan and Manifesto of the Sixteen are both well-referenced B-class articles that will make good candidates. I don't like featuring articles I've worked on, but few anarchism articles seem to be getting thorough development at the moment so our choices are necessarily limited. the skomorokh 03:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Guidelines for anniversaries

I was just thinking of filling in a few more anniversaries but I can't remember what the conventions for inclusion are. Some questions:

• Should births of notable anarchists be included? Deaths?
• Should events significant to anarchism but not directly related be included? That is, how much narrower is our scope compared to the Daily Bleed?
• There seems to be a convention to lead with the year of the event (e.g. *1999 - Anarchists in Seattle...). Should the year be linked or not, per MOS:NUM?
• What sort of punctuation should separate the year from the text; hyphen or colon?
• How long should entries be?
• When should images be included, and how?
• What number of entries per date should we be aiming towards? Is it a good idea to use poorer entries if there is only one good one?
• Should we give preference to entries with Wikipedia articles on the event/individual/organisation in question?

For my part, I'd favour deaths but not births, only directly related events, hyphen, no datelinks, and 3-5 entries per date of varying quality, with preference for bluelinks over red; not sure on images. Anniversaries look to go back online on January 1; September-December are still incomplete. If possible, I'd like to start finishing individual entries from December 31 backwards, so that we can re-introduce the anniversaries module as soon as possible. Any and all suggestions and comments welcome. Skomorokh 15:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Back when i cranked out 5 months of anniversaries (or whatever it was), I left out things that weren't directly related to anarchism, tried to only put in items that could be at least somewhat bluelinked, and included births and deaths. Unfortunately, I think births kind of have to be included, because we don't exactly have a dearth of material to draw from. I tried to have a photo for each day, unless I couldn't find anything. and i don't think there will be a problem with having too many entries on a day, unless it's May 1 or something. again, there's unfortunately not THAT much material to draw from. Murderbike (talk) 22:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Just so that we're clear, there was some earlier discussion on the requirements for inclusion, but this dialogue was carried out on the talk page for the anniversaries sub-page. Discussions there have a tendency to go unnoticed, so it might be best to continue the dialogue here, but at least reference what has come before. As for the current topics, I myself couldn't stick to a standard, as much as I tried. I would inevitably second-guise earlier standards I'd set for myself, and so I always intended to go back over the whole thing to standardize it, and focused simply on filling out entries. That broke down around August, when I lost interest in favor of other projects. I think both births and deaths should be included for notable individuals, when known. I don't think the years need to be linked. I have been using hypens to seperate text and dates, but colons would be fine. I have been having trouble with entry length. At first we tried to stick with short, descriptive sentences for events that could link to articles. The articles would then elaborate on the subject. When I encountered a red linked subject, I included more description; my hope was that this would encourage people to research the subject, and then create the entry. When the link turned from red to blue, the description could be shortened. I'm no longer sure how to feel about this. I think it was misguided, because now I believe we need to include citations for these events, but red links still serve a purpose (see below). I think at most, entries should be a single sentence in length. A semi-colon can be used only when necessary to expand the entry. No more than two sentences. That's the max. Along that same line, I don't think there needs to be a maximum limit on the number of entries included, so long as each entry is short. If each event has historical significance, there's no reason to debate over which has more significance than another. Images should always be included, with preference given to commons images. Fair use images will be harder to justify, but the attempt can be made at times. When in doubt, dont' use an image at all. If there are enough entries included, there will be a relevant image out there somewhere. Preference can be given to entries with an existing article, but as new articles are created we'll have a lag in the logistics. Updating old listings will become confusing. I think red linked events are still useful. So long as the are cited (a blue linked entry can rely on the citation from the article itself), a red linked entry can be verifiable and serve as a reminder of what articles need to be created. In essence, it would serve as a frequently rotating "requested articles" listing. On another note, I was constantly including (birth-death) date entries after names. I no longer feel like it was always useful. Maybe we can drop that. --Cast (talk) 18:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Update/progress report

Portal:Anarchism/Anniversaries is now complete from January 1 to October 4, with about two months worth of redlinks remaining. In light of the above discussion, I've created a template, {{Portal anniversary}}, to facilitate the standardisation of future entries. It doesn't do much at present other than establish the ndash rather than colon or hyphen as the separator between bullet point and hook, set the image size to 100x100px, and set a limit of eight entries (contra Cast, I think that some upper limit on entries is sensible to keep the Anniversaries module from taking up too much space), but it will come in handy in future if we decide to change the style of any of these (one edit rather than 365 needed). It can also be used to decide whether years should be linked, and if we decide to add references to entries at some point, the template will be a help. The template isn't useful enough to justify retroactively introducing it, but if anyone decides to take on the remaining redlinks, I'd encourage use of the template. I hope to finish October over the next month or so, and the others by the time Winter rolls round (yes, I said that last year too). Skomorokh 23:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Centralize

• Nominations sandbox

I would like to propose centralizing the talk pages for the portal by merging the history of each into this main talk page, and redirecting their gutted remains here ({{central}}). I would also like to suggest creating a single Nominations for the quotes, images, and DYK hooks. That way, portal "maintenance crews" need only add a single page to their watchlist. Any reason not to? --Cast (talk) 05:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It could get messy; some of the nomination pages are "full" enough as it is. I might support a single maintenance page separate from this discussion page. Would you mind whipping up a sandbox to give us a rough idea of what your proposal would look like? Skomorokh 16:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I've now included a sandbox for us to work with. From this example, I think the work space can be kept rather organized. --Cast (talk) 17:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

That looks better than I thought it would, kudos. If we're going to this, we should go the whole way, though; Portal:Anarchism/Selected article should be included (modified if necessary), as should a collapsed version of Portal:Anarchism/Anniversaries and some sort of workspace for/link to Portal:Anarchism/News (I've been thinking about having a noincluded list of anarchism news sites that editors could check for major news items; perhaps this could go in the workspace). If we do go ahead with this, I strongly recommend the talkpages of all subpages of Portal:Anarchism and Portal talk:Anarchism be merged then redirected to the talkpage of the nominations/maintenance page. That way there will only be two pages to watchlist and monitor: the portal and the maintenance page. Skomorokh 17:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't really have the time now, but I've created the sections you've suggested, but I haven't fleshed them out, nor did I put any real thought into them. I did create the collapsed bar for the anniversaries. Perhaps you'd like to work on it to your liking, since they were your ideas. I don't really know what you were aiming for. --Cast (talk) 05:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it was rude of me to suggest you apply the elbow grease. As long as I have your blessing to mess around with your sandboxes I'll try and hammer out what I was getting at. Skomorokh 17:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

• Maintenance station

Okay, just in time for the new year, I've decided to go through with the centralization. There are a lot of kinks to work out in the next phase of this transition. For example, should talk pages for individual, transcluded quote, image, anniversary date, and article templates, all redirect their talk pages to this talk page, or the maintenance talk page? Should the maintenance talk page become the centralized point of discussion for nominations, or should this talk page be it? Talk pages for selected images and anniversaries currently have recorded discussions on them. These should be moved to archived sub-pages, then be included in an archive talk box (they can't simply be merged into a talk space; history merging doesn't work that way). For now, I move that the talk pages should all be centralized here. That includes individual anniversaries. Yes, even March 23. I don't want someone writing a comment on November 18th and not getting a response. Besdies, it would be redundant to have a main, and maintenance talk page. I move that all nominations be listed on the maintenance page, while all discussions on them take place here, so no one watching this page could possibly miss what happens, and new users can quickly jump into discussions. --Cast (talk) 09:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, going down my own list, I've archived and linked the two talk pages with previous discussions. Lets press onward... to victory! --Cast (talk) 10:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, fully support having this as the main talk page. Maintenance talk can probably be done on the maintenance page itself. Skomorokh 01:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Moving maintenance portal sub-page to ATF sub-page

Here is a new thought that came to me just a few hours ago: since one of the tasks of the Anarchist Task Force is to oversee the development of the portal, should the Portal Maintenance station be a tab on the ATF space? The layout would be "main; recognized content; workstation; portal maintenance; resources; participants) --Cast (talk) 20:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm a few weeks behind discussion here and regarding the ATF overhaul. There are lots of good ideas, but would you mind hanging on until next weekend so I can get a chance to review everything? Skomorokh 21:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm in no rush, and though activity amongst others is at a low ebb at the moment, I would like to give more time to others in the case that they should like to have a say. I won't be making any changes any time soon. Take your time. --Cast (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, on the merits of this proposal. Portal upkeep is of course a major task of the ATF, and major tasks of the ATF ought to be featured prominently in the ATF space. On the other hand, all portal upkeep ought to be in the Portal space, for architectural reasons. I propose that the maintenance page itself remain in the Portal space, that a Portal maintenance tab be added to the ATF, and that the maintenance page be translcuded onto the ATF tab from the Portal space. This keeps the square pegs in the square holes while allowing easy access to and visibility of portal upkeep for the ATF. What do you reckon? Skomorokh 01:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a perfect compromise. I never considered it, but suddenly realized you were going in that direction with your second sentence. Yes, it can be featured on the ATF space without actually having to move it. Since this will require a minimum of editing, I'll move on it now and we can hash out the details after it is created. Unfortunately, there was none of the further input I might have liked from others, but that just means I won't be stepping on any toes if I dash forward. --Cast (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)