Talk:Áo dài

Early text

This article is full of inaccuracies that it's getting useless. DHN 21:35, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

There are striking similarities to this page:
http://www.acjc.edu.sg/Spectra/VibrantCulture/Vietnam/aodaihis.html
(...who's plagiarizing whom here?)
FlyByPC 02:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Tried my best to edit false information out and provide sources. Anyone want to expand? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.8.106.14 (talk) 17:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

School uniform

Is it in law required to wear the Áo dài in high schools? Is that inconvenient and hot to wear the dress? Some Vietnamese friends said so said they do not like to wear them.Comfortpracticalclothingnl 12:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, It's very uncomfortable when you wear the Áo dài cuz it's hot in summer; easy to get dirty in raining season, and a lot of inconvenients else. There is no law which require student to wear them but school rules itseft. Some school hasn't required female students to wear the Áo dài, but most of school force female students to wear the áo dài as uniform and "to made them (female students) more feminine".--Xvn (talk) 17:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It unusual to see anyone wear the áo dài in the North, except maybe for sales clerks at a high-end shop. Some high school students in Saigon told me they wore it once a week. Each school has its own uniform and rules. Kauffner (talk) 05:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The north Vietnam's weather is (very) cold but the áo dài is a thin one. If you worn only áo dài and stepped out in winter and autumn you'll be dead in seven steps. But in north Vietnam, people still wear the áo dài on special occasions such as formal ceremonies, Tết holidays.. Of course, with a proper warming method. [1][2].--Xvn (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Do not remove without discussion

Why were all mentions of the male versions, áo the and áo gấm, removed from the article without discussion? Please do not do something like that again. Badagnani (talk) 18:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, "the most common Vietnamese costume worn nowadays" was changed to "the Vietnamese national costume." This completely changes the meaning of the original, implying that there is but one national dress. This is incorrect and needs to be reverted, then discussed, before such a major change is implemented. There are several other traditional Vietnamese dresses, still worn today, in various parts of the country. Badagnani (talk) 18:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I put áo gấm back in. After talking to several Vietnamese, I gather that the áo the is strictly historical at this point. The phrase "the national costume of the Vietnamese people" was in the article before I started editing. Anyway, now it is, "a Vietnamese national costume." The earlier version called the ao dai, "one out of many traditional Vietnamese costumes worn nowadays." I took this out because I thought it made Vietnam sound like some sort of fashion museum. Kauffner (talk) 01:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Word Origin, chữ nôm

The Vietnamese version of this article gives 襖長 as the chữ nôm for áo dài. There is a detailed discussion here. Pure Vietnamese or not, dài is a very common word and must have had a chữ nôm spelling. Kauffner (talk) 09:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, dài does have a Nom character, which is 𨱽. 長 is read as "trường". The characters were added at vi.wiki by an anonymous editor and was protested by various other editors for their irrelevance; nobody had looked at their correctness. I've added a citation needed tag for that and they will be removed soon if no sources are provided. DHN (talk) 15:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

袄 is just a simplified version of 襖, so I don't quite understand the problem. Based on the Nôm Foundation dictionary, the "áo" in áo dài must be one or the other. If it is a word of Chinese origin, surely the Chinese character is relevant. Kauffner (talk) 19:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I only have problem with the "dai" part. Ao seems fine to me. DHN (talk) 19:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Might the proper chu nom character be found here? Badagnani (talk) 17:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Áo dài as high school uniform

This áo dài (Image:Áo dài, Hồ Gươm 2.jpg) isn't for school (the type of fabrics isn't suitable, it has alot of designs, while áo dài for school should be made of plain white fabric).--Xvn (talk) 17:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've seen students in áo dàis using that type of fabric, but I looked closer and I noticed that she doesn't have a tag. Also, she is displaying a ring, so she's apparently getting married or engaged. So yes, definately not a student. Kauffner (talk) 18:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

And Áo dài isn't only for women. In formal ceremonies (especially đám giỗ, đám cưới), family male members can also wear it.--Xvn (talk) 15:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean an áo gấm? That's in the article. (Now back in the lead.) Kauffner (talk) 02:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I call my brother's "áo gấm" "áo dài".--Xvn (talk) 03:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Poem

There a poem about the áo dài: "áo dài đôi cánh tiên bay", which I'd like to put in the "Popular Culture" section if someone write it up correctly. Kauffner (talk) 02:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

As might be expected for a national costume, the áo dài is extensively referenced in Vietnamese literature and music, most notably in the poem Áo lụa Hà Đông by Nguyên Sa, later made into a song and the inspiration for a film with the same name. DHN (talk) 01:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Diacriticals, page move

I looked up "aodai" in various dictionaries and noticed that it has gained recognition as a full-fledged English-language word. It's in both the Oxford English Dictionary and in the American Heritage Dictionary. I suggest we move the page to "Aodai" (the Merriam-Webster spelling). Kauffner (talk) 16:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutral. áo dài: 51,500 hits aodai: 14,500 hits ao dai: 185,000 hits. I don't think aodai is the most common name, may "ao dai" be better?--Xvn (talk) 03:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what to make out of the Google hit totals. I looked up some of the hits for "áo dài" and I found that for the most part the page itself doesn't actually use the diacriticals. Maybe the engine automatically checks for spelling variations. aodai and "ao dai" both gives you about 600,000 hits, which seems very odd as well. Of course, if the engine is checking for variations, it is perhaps not surprising that the number of hits would be similar. In any case, I think there are two reasons to drop the space: 1) "Aodai" is the spelling in Merriam-Webster, which is the standard for American English spelling. 2) The space is copied from Vietnamese and Vietnamese puts a space in just because the writing system puts a space between every syllable. This type of space is routinely dropped when anglicizing, Hà Nội becomes "Hanoi," Sài Gòn becomes Saigon, etc. Kauffner (talk) 15:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know that and I'm neutral. In my opinion, both "Aodai" and "ao dai" are fine. If there is no other's objection, you can change the title.--Xvn (talk) 17:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, Ao Dai as two words is better, but Ao-dai is good too. Kauffner as quoted by you "the writing system doesn't put a space between every syllable." I could be wrong, but from my understanding, Vietnamese words do not contain any syllables. Saigon is said "linguistically/phonetically" as two words. From a Vietnamese standpoint, "Sai", and "Gon", the meanings of these "words" are harder for Vietnamese people to define, as opposed to "Ao", and "Dai" which are commonly used in every day language. From an English viewpoint- "Aodai" cannot be said as a word with two syllables (phonetically) in English, as opposed to "Hanoi" or "Saigon" which can be treated/pronounced as a one word in English with two syllables. A part of writing the words together was it make it "look" more "right" or easier to read, but "aodai" doesn't look quite right as one word.twinqletwinqle (talk) 08:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

"Aodai" was not a proper page move; "ao dai" hugely outnumbers it in usage. Please move it back, or move to "ao dai." Badagnani (talk) 01:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Aodai/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi. I'm going to review this article. Intothewoods29 (talk) 00:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, everything seems to check out, so I'm saying this is GA worthy. I liked how you defined so may terms. Some things I would do before any FA noms would be to check your refs; some of them might be called unreliable, like 2 and 4. There's a red link in the beginning, which should be fixed. It could also be expanded; I'd like a section about how the Communist government of Vietnam opposed the Aodai. I'd also check about Wikipe-tan on your article. ;) Intothewoods29 (talk) 00:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

1. flows well, organized
2.refs all seem good
3. keeps on topic
4. NPOV
5.Stable
6. pics all have tags.

There must be some mistake. Reference 2 is Claire Ellis, author of the book Culture Shock! Vietnam. Reference 4 is an academic article on Google Scholar. Kauffner (talk) 03:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources look terrible, I will try to help you.--Amore Mio (talk) 16:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Diacriticals

"Aodai" is an English-language word that appears in Merriam Webster, OED and other dictionaries -- always without diacriticals. So the diacriticals are inappropriate here. Picture galleries at the end aren't the Wikipedia way. Some of the pictures in the gallery don't even depict aodais. I've tried to integrated them with the text and also deleted a few to avoid putting undue emphasis on the nineteenth century. Kauffner (talk) 09:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

And this one ?

I have to admit that the numerous photos of the girls are highly appealing and charming, but do we need that many to illustrate the áo dài? Sjschen (talk) 20:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the girl in white on the bottom left in front of the lake, the other pictures are all educational and used to illustrate major design points and whatnot. I think she is a popular image, but I will wait for other people have to say. Kauffner (talk) 04:15, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

At least one photo of a male áo dài should be included. Badagnani (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Males are not as photogenic and thus doing this might be a bit harder ;) Sjschen (talk) 19:32, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

One image was deleted for copyright vio, so I think the text/image ratio is more balanced now. There used to be picture of George Bush in an ao gam on top. It's quite unusual for Vietnamese men to wear one nowadays. Kauffner (talk) 02:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't ao gam or áo gấm redirect anywhere? Badagnani (talk) 02:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I found a picture we can use. And I also think people overemphasize the men not wearing it so much these days anymore :P it's true it's mostly worn by a select few for festivals and weddings, but Vietnam has like billions of festivals going on all the time, it doesn't seem so uncommon for me Dearlieusuck (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Things missing

I find it really interesting. However I am missing some things here. What exactly are all the different parts of an ao dai? There is a picture, but there should be more of an explanation. Also what is that headgear that some sometimes wear, see this image here and how does it fit into the ensemble? Please add the info into the article and don't just leave it here on the talk page. Gryffindor (talk) 09:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

In literature, they often say that an ao dai is worn with a nón lá (pointed leaf hat). But from what I have seen, this a style local to Huế (a city central region). Otherwise, the nón lá is a hat. As for the diagram, eo is "waist"; ống tay is "sleeve"; tà sau is "back flap"; tà trước is "front flap"; khuy cổ is "collar button"; đường may is "seam"; nút is a button; móc is little steel hook that they use instead of a button; and thân is "body". Kauffner (talk) 04:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

I've never seen the word "áo dài" used in Vietnamese for anything else besides the specific garment described in this article. DHN (talk) 21:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Spelling

The word is spelled as "ao dai" (no diacriticals) in two different dictionaries.[3] I don't any rationale for either capitalizing or using diacritics. Kauffner (talk) 11:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think the fact that it's an English word means it can be spelled without the diacritics. As for the spacing, it seems to go either way. —Soap— 12:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Ao dai or aodai

The only place in this article where it's one word is the title at the beginning. Can it be changed to two words there for consistency? Kirs10 (talk) 04:28, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Should be Ao Dai Wilson20072000 (talk) 06:38, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Why See also: Qipao?

The See Also section mentions qipao. What is the relation between the two except for being asian dresses. The text doesn't mention anything and the qipao article only mentions the ao dai as beeing similar to the qipao without any further information. To me they even don't look similar, especially considering the pantaloons, the hat and the wavy look. Please expand on the relation between ao dai and qipao. 78.52.228.98 (talk) 11:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Both dresses feature split-sided tunics, but that's superficial. The traditional versions were nothing exciting to look at. But they were both modernized in the 1920s and 1930s in a way that identified sexuality with nationalism. There are a lot of parallels between the Vietnamese nationalists and those of the KMT. I figure someone at Tự Lực văn đoàn had a brainstorm along the lines of, "We need a qipao for Vietnam!" So the editors found Le Mur and starting promoting his designs. However, I haven't actually seen it explained that way in any source. Kauffner (talk) 12:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The word Ao derived from Middle Chinese? I don't think so

Áo is Vietnamese word in purity. It has nothing to do with 襖 in Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilson20072000 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The early examples by Le Quy Don and others were obviously not written in Latin script. What character do you think was used? It must have been a Chinese character with the Vietnamese reading of áo. Here is list of the possibilities. I assume áo is short for quần áo (clothing). I don't see a reading that would suggest "purity." Kauffner (talk) 10:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh please, there is a huge percentage of vocabulary the Vietnamese stole because their barbaric tribes don't have any culture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2866:9C00:4594:5E88:13ED:C3EB (talk) 18:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

"Áo is a classifer for clothing"

I see the lede on 06 Sep 2012 added that "Áo is a classifer for clothing". See:

• Classifier_(linguistics)#Vietnamese
• Vietnamese_grammar#Classifier_position

Vietnamese	English, literal	English
ba chiếc áo dài	three [clothing counter] tunic+long	three (sets of) áo dài

Nguyẽ̂n Đình Hoà in Vietnamese 1997 Page 174 states "..occur to the left of the head noun [N, position 0] in precise positions represented by, respectively, -3 (tất cả 'all-all'), -2 (năm 'five'), -1 (chiếc 'CLASSIFIER'), vis-à-vis 0 (áo dài) in the phrase tất cả năm chiếc áo dài 'all five dresses' [áo dài is a compound noun "upper garment + long]"..

1 chiếc áo choàng tắm (1 bathrobe), 2 chiếc áo sơ mi (2 shirts), is the classifer for clothing. áo dài is a compound noun. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:17, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

That áo dài is a compound noun is self-evident. Is the point that the use of áo is irregular in this case? You can shorten áo sơ mi to sơ mi, but you cannot shorten áo dài. If you don't like the word "classifer", we can rewrite it as "classifies the item as clothing" or "indicates that this is an item of clothing." Kauffner (talk) 10:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

@Kauffner,

Classifier means classifier, it is a defined linguistic term. It is not that "I don't like it" it is that is is incorrect. As I said before, don't believe me, ask your language teacher to explain it to you.

In any case I appreciate the removal of the word "classifier", but the sentence "Áo classifies the item as a piece of clothing" could still give readers the impression that your earlier understanding of Áo as a classifier. A better term, per Elizabeth J. Lewandowski The Complete Costume Dictionary 2011 Page 12 "áo: Vietnam. Generic term for clothes." Or you could simply per Đình Hoà Nguyẽ̂n "[áo dài is a compound noun "upper garment + long]" In ictu oculi (talk) 01:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Photos

Can we please have discussion here rather than edit war? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Áo dài

? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Colored trousers?

Up through the 1970's the satin trousers were always either white or black, the photos I see here have colored trousers, when did this occur? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.18.212 (talk) 21:44, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Ao dai. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130522194437/https://alibu.com.vn/ao-dai-lua-to-tam/ to https://alibu.com.vn/ao-dai-lua-to-tam/
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://bichvygaugi.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!1CDCF9B5594AB224!1049/
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://bichvygaugi.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!1CDCF9B5594AB224!1049/
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.english.vietnamnet.vn/lifestyle/2008/06/789353/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110622101508/http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/helpinglink/StudentWeb/webproject/html/fashion.htm to http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/helpinglink/StudentWeb/webproject/html/fashion.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:02, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Lots of unnecessary information should be removed

The article is supposed to be about the Ao Dai, but instead, there is a lot of clutter about the áo giao lĩnh, and history about what Vietnamese people wore before the Ao Dai? That is not what the article is about.

The picture of áo giao lĩnh should be removed.

The gallery of Vietnamese garments throughout the centuries is NOT necessary.

Information about the áo giao lĩnh should be moved to another article, or a new article about "the history of Vietnamese clothing" should be created.

Doublestuff (talk) 01:30, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Ao dai. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080705105011/http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/1083 to http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/1083
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080705105011/http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/1083 to http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/1083
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://articles.getacoder.com/Ao_Dai_-_Vietnamese_Plus_Size_Fashion_Statement_808529x1200042917.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:05, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Ao dai. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080704053408/http://www.nhamagazine.com/back_issue/issue_0506/ac_p1.shtml to https://alibu.com.vn/ao-dai-lua-to-tam/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080408004749/http://www.nhamagazine.com/012008/feature/aodai.shtml to https://alibu.com.vn/ao-dai-lua-to-tam/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130322182508/http://wrile.com/long-dress-ao-dai-vietnam to https://alibu.com.vn/ao-dai-lua-to-tam/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:04, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 14 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Not convinced by the opposes. (closed by non-admin page mover) Dane ^talk 19:20, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

---

Ao dai → Áo dài – WP:CONSISTENCY with the rest of Category:Vietnamese clothing, modern English sources Routledge etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:45, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per The Use English policy and use in other reliable sources (https://www.britannica.com/topic/ao-dai). Academicoffee71 (talk) 02:06, 20 September 2017 (UTC) Striking sock !vote per this SPI. -- Dane ^talk 19:19, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

• Support: presumption in favour of diacritics unless very strong evidence to the contrary. Colonies Chris (talk) 16:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• Support. Wikipedia does not normally strip diacritics from such names/terms unless they have been absorbed into English. There are some sources that can't type diacritics or have style manuals that prohibit diacritics. Wikipedia can and does not. —  AjaxSmack  23:39, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Ao dai is an English-language word given without diacritics by Oxford Dictionaries, Merriam-Webster, and American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. Notice that American Heritage gives the Vietnamese language word with diacritics, but the corresponding English-language word without. "Follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including other encyclopedias and reference works)" as WP:DIACRITICS puts it. Great scott (talk) 09:17, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

As this is now in the RM Backlog any passing admins please note that the two oppose votes are sockpuppets of "English name" battleground accounts; SPI is closed and awaiting archiving on Academicoffee71 (aka Bobby Martnen/Genealogizer), SPI on Great scott (aka Kauffner) is awaiting Checkuser at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kauffner. Please don't feed them. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Áo dài. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080701025340/http://www.english.vietnamnet.vn/lifestyle/2008/06/789353/ to https://alibu.com.vn/ao-dai-lua-to-tam/
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://myvietnamhandbook.com/ao-dai/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:52, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit reverted

Reverted edit by @P,TO 19104. Source: http://stdj.scienceandtechnology.com.vn/index.php/stdj/article/download/1196/1563

Để độc lập với Đàng Ngoài, chúa Nguyễn Phúc Khoát đã ra sắc lệnh thay đổi triều nghi phẩm phục và quần áo trong dân gian. Gia Định thành thông chí của Trịnh Hoài Đức ghi rõ: “Năm Mậu Ngọ (1744) Thế Tông Hiếu Võ Hoàng Đế nguyên niên cải định sắc phục, quan phục của văn võ bá quan, tham chước các đời Hán Đường đến chế độ Đại Minh và kiểu dáng của chế độ mới (chỉ nhà Thanh) như trang phục của các phẩm quan dựa theo hội điển ban hành ngày nay, văn chất đã đủ đầy. Trang phục nhà cửa đồ dùng trong dân gian đại để như thể chế Đại Minh, xóa hết thói tục hủ lậu của Bắc Hà, trở thành một nước áo mũ văn hiến.” [Trịnh Hoài Đức 1999: 369].

[...]

Vào thế kỷ XIX sau khi đất nước thống nhất, người tiếp tục cuộc cải cách này một cách kiên quyết là Minh Mạng. Hội điển ghi lời dụ của Minh Mạng năm 1837 như sau: “Trước đây từ sông Gianh trở ra ngoài y phục vẫn noi theo thói tục hủ lậu, nay đặc biệt chỉ dụ lệnh phải thay đổi theo cách ăn mặc từ Quảng Bình trở vào để đồng nhất phong tục [...] Từ Quảng Bình trở vào Nam quần áo mũ mão nhất nhất noi theo chế độ Hán Minh, trang phục tề chỉnh so với tục cũ của người miền Bắc, đàn ông đóng khố, đàn bà mặc áo giao lĩnh, dưới mặc thường tròn đẹp xấu chẳng phải rõ ràng dễ thấy sao.” [Khâm Định Đại Nam hội điển sự lệ - dẫn theo Trần Quang Đức 2013: 262].

Sự “chủ động” đồng hóa y phục Việt theo Trung Quốc này của dòng họ Nguyễn xuất phát từ lợi ích của dòng họ muốn xóa bỏ văn hóa cội rễ của thời Việt cổ vốn là khu vực đất cũ Đàng ngoài, đồng thời cũng phản ánh tư tưởng vọng ngoại tôn sùng và triệt để theo văn hóa Trung Quốc của triều đại Nguyễn. Sự cưỡng ép này đã tạo ra phản ứng của người dân vùng Bắc Hà, phản ánh trong ca dao Việt: [...]

Also FYI user Trương guy is a chauvinist who deletes China-related sections in articles about Vietnamese culture for no reason; and uploading "historical Vietnamese flag" that he made up

@KomradeRice: It is evident that the Ao Dai was not "forced upon" the Vietnamese people, though. I don't think Tunong guy was trying to get rid of the section on how the Ao Dai was influenced from Qing China. Can we please find some kind of comprimise; maybe get rid of the first line? Plus, that section is totally ref-bombed. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 18:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@P,TO 19104: My bad, I didn't clarify it. The ao dai, or to be more precise, its predecessor was forced upon North Vietnamese people, it seemed South Vietnamese voluntarily accepted it. Minh Mạng's edict in 1837 quoted above is actually a second ban on traditional North Vietnamese clothing (the previous one was in 1827-1828) and forcing them to wear Southern clothing (the predecessor of ao dai). Here's the full edict:

Ngày trước, từ Linh Giang [sông Gianh] trở ra Bắc, dân vẫn mặc y phục như tục cũ. Đã ban dụ truyền lệnh sửa đổi theo y phục từ tỉnh Quảng Bình trở vào miền trong, để phong tục đồng nhất. Lại cho thời hạn rộng rãi, khiến dân được thong thả may sắm quần áo. Từ năm Minh Mạng thứ 8 (1828) đến nay, đã mười năm rồi, vẫn nghe nói dân chưa sửa đổi. Vả lại, từ tỉnh Quảng Bình trở vào Nam, mũ khăn, quần áo đều theo cách của nhà Hán, nhà Minh, xem khá tề chỉnh. Theo phong tục cũ của người miền Bắc, con trai đóng khố, con gái mặc áo thắt vạt, dưới mặc váy. Đẹp xấu đã thấy rõ rệt. Có kẻ đã theo tục tốt, cũng có kẻ vẫn giữ nguyên thói cũ, phải chăng cố ý làm trái mệnh trên? Các tỉnh thần nên đem ý ấy mà chỉ bảo, khuyên dụ nhân dân. Hạn trong năm nay, phải nhất tề thay đổi. Nếu đầu năm sau còn giữ theo y phục cũ, sẽ bị tội (this is a different translation, original is in Classical Chinese)

Thanks for the clarification. Inviting Truong guy to comment. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 21:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@P,TO 19104 I don't think what I tried to do was making disruptive. Milkaco is a comfirmed sockpuppet of Rajmaan and were blocked by Checkuser Bbb23 since May 2018. This is the made-up content of #sock Milktaco added hoaxes a bomb of sources which none of them claim that the "Nguyen dynasty copied Chinese clothing". It is right to remove the disputed and self-claimed contents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Rajmaan

@KomradeRice Your accusation of me "a chauvinist" is nonsense. Wikipedia appreciates the use of academic, secondary English-source books by historians, scholars from verified publishers, such as the Cambridge University's Press. I do not believe any primary, chronic sources as your evidence to restored the sockpuppetry contents. I have talked with you on facebook about that. Noted that KomradeRice float and quark like Rajmaan. Trương guy (talk) 07:12, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

@Trương guy Li Tana's Nguyen Cochinchina was written in 1998, the knowledge about the history Vietnamese clothing custom at the time were still limited. Tana believed ao dai originated from Cham clothing because of their similarity in look, but it's actually the other way around. The ao dai predated Cham clothing and it was forced upon Cham people hence their similarity: The destruction and assimilation of Campā (1832–35) as seen from Cam sources page 174-175 btw here's your Cambridge source

@KomradeRice: @Trương guy: Thank you both for your comments. After much consideration, I think I have to agree with Truong guy since Milktaco was a confirmed sock of Rajaaman (although his user page redirects to User:Dividing, which is very confusing). Content added by a sockpuppet in violation of their ban cannot stay on an article per Wikipedia policy. It's hard to know what to believe. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 14:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Rajmaan = Milktaco

User Milktaco is a confirmed sockpuppet of sockmaster Rajmaan and was blocked since 2018. It is not about debate but should be to removed forever. Trương guy (talk) 07:16, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

@Milktaco: Yes, it should be noted that his user page goes to User:Dividing, though. When referring to Milktaco, please instead use User talk:Milktaco, since that is where the sock tag is.

There has been an ongoing conversation about whether or not male high-school students should wear ‘ao dai’ at Monday’s ceremony. Vietnamese Merited Artist Kim Xuan expressed her wish for male high-school students to wear ‘ao dai,’ at an event celebrating the meaning and beauty of the Vietnamese traditional costume on November 2nd, 2020. Her comment was received with both support and criticisms, yet the criticisms were flooded with gender discrimination against female students and double standards. This event has unveiled the inherent prejudicial norms against not only Vietnamese female high-school students but also Vietnamese women in general. I believe making readers aware of this conversation will allow for a deeper understanding of how gender norms within traditional costumes create challenges for women, which will contribute to the dismantle of these ingrained beliefs. Interdependentfeminist (talk) 17:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ao dai 5 ta mau vang.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:59, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Les congaïs à Hanoï 1954.jpg (discussion)
• Quatre sœurs à Hanoï 1950s.jpg (discussion)

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:24, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Marie Antoinette Boullard-Devé miền trung.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Tamil word with Similar sound In The south Indian language of Tamil AADAI means dress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.8.109.10 (talk) 16:17, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Han Nom

The are three ways to write áo in Nôm and three ways to write dài. Why 襖𨱾 as opposed to 袄曳? No source is given. I checked several Nôm dictionaries and none of them have an entry for áo dài. It's a modern word, so I wouldn't expect them to have one. We need to stop pulling nonsense out of the air. 5440orSleep (talk) 16:52, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

What does "taking lotus" mean?

Currently there's an image in the gallery section with the following caption: "A girl wearing ao dai and taking lotus, in Ha Noi, 2016". What does "taking lotus" mean? Banedon (talk) 09:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear Otomo Ajah

@Otomo Ajah Please do not delete my useful edits. I'm still very calm, it's best not to let me get angry. Thanks. 27.3.1.125 (talk) 03:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Chữ Nôm text

Hmm, we can see no Chữ Nôm text in this paragraph. So, can we remove the tag "Contains special characters|Nom"? Nguyengiabach1201 (talk) 11:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)