Talk:2022 Southwest Airlines flight delays

Title should be changed. These were not flight delays. This was mass cancellation due to computer failure.

"2022 Southwest Airlines flight delays" title should be changed. These were not flight delays. This was mass cancellation due to computer failure. 24.5.171.142 (talk) 19:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

• Concur. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Agree. Jmaxx37 (talk) 22:21, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 29 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to 2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis. Usually Google searches are a good indication, but I don't think that they provide good data in this situation. There appears to be a preference for the third option, and that is also what the Southwest Airlines article is calling the fiasco, and it seems to be the best description of what happened. The problem was more than delays, and more than disruptions and more than cancellations. It was a fiasco, a meltdown and a systems failure. "Scheduling crisis" appears to be the best proposed title that conveys that. SamuelWantman 06:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

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2022 Southwest Airlines flight delays → 2022 Southwest Airlines flight cancellations – Flights were cancelled, not just delayed. -- Jax 0677 (talk) 21:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

• Neutral The new title does make sense over the old one, but I think this should be merged entirely. There is simply not enough content to justify a split from Late December 2022 North American winter storm. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 00:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
• Merge agree with above, this article does not meet notability guidelines right now and should be merged into the main article. If I had to choose then cancellations would be the more apt title to the situation. Yeoutie (talk) 04:20, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  We have a separate discussion on this already at Talk:Southwest Airlines. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:19, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Support move if article is not merged. Jax 0677 makes a good point here, and this is among the biggest airline logistical failures in recent memory. Calling all of these flights "Delays" doesn't cut it when over 60% of all Southwest flights are cancelled. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

• Merge selectively into Late December 2022 North American winter storm and History of Southwest Airlines, as I believe the content can be adequately covered there. That said, if no consensus emerges to merge the article, I think that 2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis is the best possible title because the topic has clearly evolved beyond mere delays and cancellations.Carguychris (talk) 17:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  "2022 Southwest Airlines Scheduling Crisis" is better than calling it "flight cancellations" at this point. This article already has 12 sources and the situation is still far from resolved. In fact it should have a banner explaining this is an ongoing event. This event will result in a DOT investigation, and very likely a congressional inquiry. While weather played a role in this situation, it's become clear that it was primarily a series of technical problems that caused it, so merging this with the article on the winter storm seems to inappropriate. This should remain an independent article for the time being before merging it into the History of Southwest Airlines or merging it into the Southwest Airlines article. 24.5.171.142 (talk) 20:57, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  Support move I've now reconsidered my earlier suggestion to merge the page, however, I still believe that "scheduling crisis" is a better title than "cancellations", although both are certainly far more apt than "delays". Carguychris (talk) 17:43, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose merge While weather was a catalyst, it wasn't the weather that caused the meltdown. Support move it's not delays, it's cancellations. It's hard to make a case this doesn't meet notability guidelines when there's literally dozens of references now. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

  Actually, just having dozens of references and an “unprecedented” impact is not enough for an article. 2023 collapse of Damar Hamlin was redirect following an AFD with 80 references. It also had a huge impact as for the first time since the 1930s, an NFL team was one game short. It also caused a few seeding issues. While I understand this is a WP:OSE argument, I will also point out that WP:109PAPERS explicitly says seeing numerous references doesn’t confirm notability, as it could be a news blowup. Plenty of things get an investigation, which doesn’t make it newsworthy. Combined between the winter storm article and history of the airlines article, there is more than enough places to merge the content. Support merge. If the merge fails, support cancellations. Delays just aren’t newsworthy. 70.23.39.2 (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose merge - "The disruption to operations is the most costly and largest in the history of U.S. airlines". For the record, though I prefer the title of "2022 Southwest Airlines flight cancellations", I am not completely opposed to moving the article title to "2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis". --Jax 0677 (talk) 16:07, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support move, preferably to 2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis, but 2022 Southwest Airlines flight cancellations is also acceptable. - CreationFox ^{Talk Page} 13:00, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

  I think Disruptions is a better word. 'Delays' doesn't cover 'Cancellations' and vice-versa whereas I think 'Disruption' covers the whole spectrum. JeffUK 11:20, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support as proposed per the nominator's rationale. No opinion on the merge, but that can be determined after the closes since ... a merge is not what this discussion is about since this is a move request. Steel1943 (talk) 22:33, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
  • @Steel1943: Thanks for your comments. Could you comment in the section below as well please? Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 02:11, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

    I see no need as I have nothing to add. Thanks. Steel1943 (talk) 02:34, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Options decision

(courtesy pings to @Jax 0677: @Yeoutie: @InvadingInvader: @Carguychris: @CreationFox: @JeffUK: and I'd ping the IP but you can't do that (and anyone else of course))

Let's focus on the options in play here since we don't seem to have a handle on which direction to go. Please state, in order of DESCENDING preference, your preferences for the following options:

• Option 1: "2022 Southwest Airlines flight delays" (the title now)
• Option 2: "2022 Southwest Airlines flight cancellations"
• Option 3: "2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling crisis"
• Option 4: "2022 Southwest Airlines scheduling disruptions" (chose "scheduling" over "flight" here as using "flight" might imply planes having problems in flight)

-- Hammersoft (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

• The Google search results in news (thinking WP:COMMONNAME here), the results for these terms are (1) 3.32 million, (2) 2.33 million, (3) 134 thousand, and (4) 142 thousand (note: these figures keep changing slightly). So for me, I think 3 and 4 are out, as they track very poorly compared to 1 and 2. Of those two, the current title I think is unworkable due to it not encompassing all the cancellations that resulted from the situation. Thus; Option 2, Option 1, Option 3, Option 4. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I would say option 2 is by far my favorite, one could even modify option 2 to simply say “2022 Southwest Airlines cancellations” since it is already established by Southwest Airlines’ full name that cancellations are related to flights or air travel (call this Option 2.5 if you want). Other than that, I completely concur with Hammersoft. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:06, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Logically I agree with you on 2.5, but Google News reports 1.8 million hits as of now. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:00, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

My preferences for this are 3, 2, 1, and 4, in that order. - CreationFox ^{Talk Page} 14:54, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I vote for 3, 4, 2, and 1 in that order. We should take WP:COMMONNAME into account but WP:CONCISE also demands consideration. "Delays" or "cancellations" without qualifiers could be misconstrued as referring to delays and cancellations generally throughout 2022, rather than to the late December crisis specifically. This concern could also be addressed by naming it "Late December 2022 Southwest Airlines flight cancellations" (or delays), but "scheduling crisis" or "scheduling disruptions" gets the point across in fewer words. Carguychris (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

• Two is my first choice, then three. Both one and four are terrible. The problem with four is that disruptions doesn’t confer notability.70.23.39.2 (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dec 21 Denver ramper walkout?

The WaPo has confirmed that a "state of emergency" was declared for Denver Int'l Airport ramp workers on the 21st, citing an SWA memo threatening rampers with termination if they called in sick without a doctor's note. This seems to have precipitated the whole crisis. What's unclear is exactly what happened at DEN other than the issuance of the memo. This blog post and others suggest that there was a mass ramper walkout, while this one says the airline has denied it, but doesn't confirm the source of the denial nor what prompted it. This story in the Denver Post is the only one I've found that meets WP:RS and alludes to the event, but it contains very little detail. Most online stories discussing the walkout seem to lead back to a Twitter user called JonNYC and an anonymous forum post by someone claiming to be a Southwest pilot, both of which fail WP:RS due to WP:UGC concerns. Does anyone have more solid information? Carguychris (talk) 18:00, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

William J. McGee comments?

I recently created an article for William J. McGee. He’s made some biting comments about this situation. Any place for his comments? I’d say he is a subject matter expert. Thriley (talk) 21:52, 2 January 2023 (UTC)